Deseret News | Reader comments: Panel asks to raise teachers' pay again

Reader comments
Panel asks to raise teachers' pay again

Page:
1
2
Next >

how bout | 1:34 a.m. Feb. 13, 2008

a taxcut on the STATE Tax are we pay way to much taxes at the state level ?

Anonymous | 2:58 a.m. Feb. 13, 2008

Every little bit helps. The teachers need about a $10,000 a year raise in starting salary to get people to even consider it for a career.

When we get starting salaries to about $50,000 then we will really see an increase in people becoming teachers.

Right now it is around $30,000. You can't come close to buying a house on that salary.

Last | 3:54 a.m. Feb. 13, 2008

I would like to know who's software company will benefit from Brad Last's proposal, and what connection he has to it.

Comments continue below

Good writing | 4:07 a.m. Feb. 13, 2008

I like how the author uses the word "another" throughout the story, notably twice in the first sentence. Nice subtle hint D-News that you think teachers are 'always' getting raises, raise upon raise. Please. This is the most important profession in our society, one of the least respected, and surely the most underpaid. I'm not a teacher, I was too selfish and went for more money, but I realize the need to provide critical thinking skills and discipline to our children. The teachers and educators we have our amazing, they do so much with such few resources given to them. Thank you teachers.

Jon N. | 6:07 a.m. Feb. 13, 2008

Not Again! My pay has been cut because of the current economic conditions. Everybody needs to help out and not beg for more pay increases. The only way this can happen is if illegal alien students are eliminated from public education and the saved money distributed to teachers.

Teaching Needs to Be Well Respec | 6:27 a.m. Feb. 13, 2008

Teachers have been short changed for years and years. As a result, many talented people who would otherwise become teachers don't. It simply doesn't pay enough. This is penny wise and pound foolish, not to make this profession decent paying and well respected.

As a result you have many lower IQ people going into teaching that can't see that whole language when teaching reading, and investigations math are dumb ideas. Although the general public can see it, to many teachers can't. We need teachers who are smarter than the general public not dumber.

St. George | 7:00 a.m. Feb. 13, 2008

Did all other citizens get at $2,500 raise

my two cents | 7:25 a.m. Feb. 13, 2008

Why only $2,500? That's too little. The grammar used by the first poster above is clear evidence of poor education in our state. I think he meant to say " a tax cut on the state tax as (not are) we pay way too (not to) much...

Clare | 7:29 a.m. Feb. 13, 2008

I'm a teacher and my I.Q. is in the top two percent tile. Guess were all not dumb. In fact, the teachers I know at my school are pretty smart. There are a few that do struggle with math. This is my area of strength.

Respect must be earned | 7:41 a.m. Feb. 13, 2008

...and the way it is earned is typically by working hard and letting the market determine wages. That's how the rest of us do it, and it should be good enough for teachers. I say that because I would love to see a lot of teachers get paid a whole lot more, but there are a lot of teachers who do more harm than good, and shouldn't be paid anything. This nonsense about all teachers needing a pay raise is just that, nonsense. Anyone who is unwilling to admit that there are lousy teachers who don't deserve the pay they already get is either wilfully blind, or else is a shill for the teacher unions. Free our teachers to earn what they are worth! For most of them is a whole lot more than they are getting now, but for some it will be absolutely zero, and to that latter group, I say good riddance!

Others Getting The Shaft | 7:42 a.m. Feb. 13, 2008

$50,000 starting salary? What government employee starts at $50,000? Police Officers don't. Prison Guards don't. DCFS workers don't. Streets workers don't. Most start between $20,000 and $30,000.

Yes Teachers need to be paid more, but it's time we start looking at the REST of our government employees, the ones who have been languishing without a raise so the teachers could get theirs. A prison guard starts at $13 an hour.....$13 to deal with the people that no one else wants to deal with. A Sergeant at the prison with 6 years on the job makes a whopping $16 an hour. That's $33,000 a year for 2080 hours worked.

For comparison, according to utahsright.com, there is ONE teacher in the SL City School District making less than $36,000 a year.

The lowest paid teacher in Granite makes $23.95 an hour, which comes out to $31,604 a year for 1320 hours worked.

By comparison, a Sergeant with the Dept. Of Public Safety (UHP) was making $22.20 an hour.

Troopers are making between $16 and $20 an hour.

Where's the outrage at what we're paying everyone else who works for the government? Do we only care about those with a loud union?

ej | 7:50 a.m. Feb. 13, 2008

If you think teachers are underpaid go to the Dept of Workforce services and do a little research. Considering that schools are in session less than half the year (180 days), teachers are among the better paid professions in the state, especially when you factor in their benefits. The rest of us are either getting pay cuts or not getting raises and our benefits are being slashed to the bone. Teachers are doing pretty well. Just drive by any elementary or middle school and look at the cars in the parking lot.

And as far as the wacked out curricula, it's not stupid teachers that are foisting that on our kids, it is government intervention. For the paltry sum of a few million dollars (a very small percentage of the school spend in Utah), the Federal Government dictates local school policy. Let's cut the strings and refuse any Federal Government money and set our own school policies based on Utah values.

Humph.

E | 8:08 a.m. Feb. 13, 2008

Stop it, stop it, stop it! Enough already. If teachers don't like their salary and benefit package, let them go find something better in the private sector. In the meantime, give me back the excess taxes I paid and stop handing it out like a sugar daddy.

And how many careers have a starting salary that you CAN go out and buy a house on? How many carreers give you summers off, a six hour work day, and a killer benefits package? Those poor teachers!

Anonymous | 8:09 a.m. Feb. 13, 2008

Respect must be earned, but figuring out a fair way to measure that respect opens up a whole new can of worms.

teachers first | 8:11 a.m. Feb. 13, 2008

It would be nice if the pay increases actually arrived in the teachers' pockets instead of going through school districts who use the funds to purchase, furnish, and overstaff eloborate buildings for their own comfort and self esteem while teachers wage the real battles of learning in classrooms with thirty plus students and no air conditioning, etc.

Re Clare 7:29 | 8:18 a.m. Feb. 13, 2008

No disrespect to you from me. There are many fine teachers. However because the education profession pays so little, there are also many lower IQ teachers. There is not enough money paid to have high enough standards to weed out the dumb ones.

I once tried to convince a teacher to teach phonics. I explained that it is better to teach a few rules that will suffice in 70 to 80% of the cases when young students are reading words, after these rules are learned, the exceptions aren't too difficult to catch on to because the words can be discerned in the context of the sentence. She told me it is easier just to memorize each word individually. I remember thinking how dumb she was. I have been proven right, whole language has been discredited.

Same with investigations math. We need to pay the educational community more and then require more of them. Their work perhaps more than any affects the future of all of us.

Of course there are intelligent people who choose teaching, just not enough of them. We need to pay enough so that every teacher is the cream of the crop.

Re: Respect must be earned | 8:21 a.m. Feb. 13, 2008

There is a shortage of teachers now. Isn't this the market speaking? When going to university I remember hearing from others they would like to become teachers but need to make more money. The standards to become teachers and to go to the schools of education are too low. As a result many low IQ people are in the profession. (not all teachers are dumb). We can't raise the standards, because then the shortage would be even greater.

If you don't see what I mean, then look into what Alpine School district has done and is doing with math education, there are teachers who don't even believe in teaching long division or times tables. At the secondary level, algebra, geometry and pre-calculus, math education has been dumbed down severely. This because education does not attract enough of the best and brightest. This needs to change. How much sense would it make for a farmer to eat his best seed, amd use his worst seed for next years crop?

J | 8:26 a.m. Feb. 13, 2008

The legislator should not give the state school board one more dime.

They (the legislator) put together a solid proposal last session that absolutely would have increased per pupil spending and reduced class size. However, because it meant losing some power over student education, the union rallied their troops, fired up the propaganda machine, and convinced a largely uninformed voting public to kill the proposal.

The legislator is completely justified in not giving one more red cent to the closed minded educators running state education.

Also, I agree with the sentiment that public schools that accept the children of illegal aliens as students help create a magnet for illegal immigration.

ron | 8:21 a.m. Feb. 13, 2008

To bad the legislature cannot define teacher. My daughter has been teaching school for many years in Salt Lake and the raises are given to secretaries and janitors and everyone but teachers simply because once the district gets the money THEY decide how to spend it. There is no accountability once it leaves the states coffers. AMAZING!

RE: Others Getting the Shaft | 8:48 a.m. Feb. 13, 2008

I totally agree that all Government workers need to get a pay raise. However the arguement that is used concerning $ per hour looks good on paper but is not quite accurate. I guess it is accurate if all teachers everywhere got to school 1/2 hour before school starts and left 1/2 hour after school ended (regular contract hours). I think we can all agree that many teachers work more hours than what the contract calls for. I don't know much about other government jobs ie. prison workers, police officers, etc. but do they get paid overtime when they work longer?

Re-Clare | 8:43 a.m. Feb. 13, 2008

2% Clare, I think that would be 'percentile', not 'percent tile'. My point exactly. IQ measures you ability to suceed in school, not your intelligence, or determination. An intelligent person knows that.

I agree with ej, quit quoting a yearly salary, look at the $/hour.

And cut out all the retirement benefits, this is one of the last instutitions that offer them. Why do they expect to be taken care of for the rest of their lives, private industry doesn't do this. Offer a 401k and an HSA like everyone else. The benefits package is worth over $13/hour, but it's paid all year, not just the working months, which increases its $/hr even more.

I know DCSF workers that don't get 1/3 this pay, and no benefits offered.

Isn't their job even more important that education? Childrens lives are on the line.

Give me a break | 8:44 a.m. Feb. 13, 2008

Factor in thier benefits? That's a laugh. It may show that teachers "make" over $30,000 on Utah's "Right" dot com, but the benefits that historically have been afforded to teachers have been cut or even eliminated. Insurance is no longer a draw to teaching, class sizes are on the verge of ridiculous....Yes there are in fact teachers who may not belong, many of which have been in the profession for many years. I am a fairly new teacher who takes my job seriously, and am thankful for the raises recently provided by the state. I think we need to take a look at the teachers that have been here for years and are just collecting a check and wearing out VCR's. They are the ones that give a bad name to the profession, no matter how great of a teacher they might have been. It is too bad some of them can't be eliminated, to free up some money for newer teachers who are willing to try new things and are more in touch with today's student. For ej, those nice cars in the lot belong to spoiled kids and not the teachers!

my two cents | 8:44 a.m. Feb. 13, 2008

First: I do believe that while teachers are not dumb and there are some very smart teachers, as a collective group, its IQ is lower than many other "Professional" fields. Traditional low salary for teachers has discouraged for years many, many higher IQ individuals from pursuing a career in education; therefore, the collective IQ of teachers has lowered while fileds such as engineers, medical have risen. I don't personally have any evidence of this but working in education for 19 years has only help solidfy my opinion. Most of my peers, and myself for that matter, went into education for a vareity of reasons, but one of which was that it was a easy door to get through.

my two cents | 8:45 a.m. Feb. 13, 2008

Second: It is a mistake to compare the teaching profession to law enforcement. While both professions should be highly respected and valued, there is a distinct difference getting the certification to enter the profession. Education requires a 4-year degree, and although the case I make above is that almost anyone who wants to go through the four years in accepted, law enformcemnt reguires a eight week post training. All of my police friends, and I have quite a few, went to our local corrective facility and took a veryminimal basic test. Then from there, they got their turn to go to post and eventually out on the road. Some are now with the Highway Partol while others are with city and county departments. Let's not confuse the very different routes required to enter these professions even though both are highly important and needed.

students first | 9:02 a.m. Feb. 13, 2008

Teachers are probably deserving of more money for the challenging and important work they do, but just as important are the working or learning conditions for them and their students. Smaller class sizes, airconditoned classrooms in the Spring and Fall, and the ability to provide input to the districts on how they feel funds could best be spent would be a great benefit for our students.

Laurence Abel | 9:08 a.m. Feb. 13, 2008

The people in this state will (in the next few years) undoubtably see a major teacher shortage. Your children will show up for school to be taught by a substitute for much of the year, or in many cases the entire year. This is problematic for a child at any level, but will be especially noticed when the junior high math teacher knows nothing about math and does not even have a degree. Those who criticize teachers saying it's an easy job are missing the point: people simply do not want to be teachers....they don't want this "easy" job. Those who think it can be solved by money only are mistaken also. Who wants to go to work and be treated like a teacher? Until the legislature empowers teachers to discipline and bypass administrators (who will not support teachers and discipline), the shortage will get worse no matter how high salaries become

Strange Public Perceptions | 9:19 a.m. Feb. 13, 2008

I propose that teachers are paid what the current babysitting rate of $2.00 per hour per child. That would mean teachers would make $89,000 per year average. It is unbelievable that there are some in the public who think teachers are overpaid, when they are willing to spend more money on a teenage girl to watch their kids rather than on a professional to teach their kids someething. It is absolutely unbelievable at how far society has sunk.

To 'Give Me A Break | 9:25 a.m. Feb. 13, 2008

I really wonder about you teaching children when you think elementary and middle school kids are driving to school. EJ's post specifically mentioned cars at elementary and middle schools.

As for benefits, once again quit acting like teachers are the only ones with that problem.....all government employees benefits have been reduced and cut in Utah, but teachers are one of the few professions who have gotten a raise while that's happened, most others have seen no raise in pay and a reduction in benefits.

Ignorance | 9:26 a.m. Feb. 13, 2008

To those of you who think that teachers only work six hours a day and never do any work in the summer you are mistaken and should try teaching without doing any outside preparation. The time in the classroom is only half the job. I do agree with the comments that there are some horrible teachers out there that don't deserve the pay they get now. But, every school district is short on teachers. The profession needs to be made attractive to those who are entering college or else the horrible teachers will stay without any competition. The only way to do this is to raise the starting salary. Simple as that.

Tucson Comment | 9:40 a.m. Feb. 13, 2008

Be careful. Tucson Unified SD gave tremendous raises in 2007, to it's teachers and execs at the cost of closing 5 schools....which they said would not happen.

RE: ej | 9:59 a.m. Feb. 13, 2008

Do you have any kids? If so have you paid any attention to who is teaching them. Mostly older even retired teachers who come back because the teaching pool here in Utah is nill. Everyone gets their education here and leaves for more $$$. Most of these older teachers are tired of teaching but need $$. Inturn out children do not get the education they need because you belive teachers only work 180 days and it is too easy for the pay. Do a little research and even look into the trends that are taking place hopefully you will change your mind.

Utahn's Are Basically Idiots | 9:56 a.m. Feb. 13, 2008

As I read these arguments it is apparent Utahn's are idiots when it comes to education. Utah's education is only acheiving the test scores they are because there as some caring teachers left who put their own money into YOUR child's education.

For those of you who complain teachers only work 6 hours a day and nine months a year, try teaching one year and see the truth.

For those of you who complain that teachers should be paid well because there is no "demand" should talk to district human resourses personal and see just how many holes have to be filled. These "holes" are filled with spin.

Those of you that think teachers should "earn respect" try working 70 hour weeks, doing everything you can only to have "Johnny tell his mom that he wasn't told about the assignment." So you get a call from the principal from Johnny's mom followed by personal attacks even though the other 120 students got the assignment. Utah has about 7% supportive parents who get it with other 93% complete jerks. And that amounts to DISRESPECT. Try being a teacher you'll see what disrespect is-

Move Utah to 49th in funding?

Good Luck Utah | 10:15 a.m. Feb. 13, 2008

Teachers have college degrees most of the rest of the government workers who you are comparing them to do not. The state of Utah started the school year short 400 teachers. The student population in Utah will continue to rise, and so will the number of classrooms that do not have a teacher when the year starts. I believe most people would consider 400 classrooms with out teachers market forces at work. Come up with all the excuses you want to, but if the state doesn't wake up soon, they will have thousands of classrooms without teachers, and the average class size will be 45. There are no quick fixes, there are no free fixes, like the ones the legislature is trying to come up with this year. Go check out the Universities in the state and see what percentage of graduating teachers are leaving the state. The number is much higher than it has ever been and it continues to go up. Again I would call that market forces at work. Good luck Utah, disaster is just around the corner.

b-one | 10:30 a.m. Feb. 13, 2008

My wife is a Resource Teacher at a local elementary school, and she has been teaching for almost 25 years. She chose her profession because she felt an obligation and a calling to help children learn. She understood the low pay and hours. BTW, many complain about the 6-hour work day and three months off in the summer. My wife works almost 9-10 hours each day, 7 at school and several more at home correcting papers and such. She sometimes teaches summer school, however with no air conditioning and room temperatures at almost 90-100 degrees, she does not do this very often.
I too, believe civil servants, who help serve us, should recieve pay and benefit increases also.

MadMax | 10:39 a.m. Feb. 13, 2008

It is unfortunate that mamy posters here have such a low opinion of teachers and the teaching profession. Be that as it may, teaching is very important to one's success in life and in the job market. Without a solid education (meaning both formal and hands on trainig) those entering the workforce are handidcapped and doomed to low paying jobs. If other states can see that and pay their teachers considerably more than we do in Utah; we must be the anamoly, not the other way around.

If you have such negative opinions of teachers were you to teach for even one term (10 weeks) your opinion would certainly change, if you lasted that long. It is not an easy job as many believe. It has rewards that are not monetary, but improved salaries are needed to retain good teachers and recruit compmetent new ones.

If this is not a priority then in 10 years we will have hundreds of classrooms full of students with no teachers. Substitutes or parents will fill those roles. Will they do as well as trained teachers? Most likely not. What about the education of our children then? You can 'pay' now or 'pay' later.

AZ Comments | 10:59 a.m. Feb. 13, 2008

My daughter is aa 1st year teacher in Utah. Very smart and had a choice as to what she wanted to graduate in. I think she started at like $29,400. She teaches at a Title 1 school where 60% of the kids are ESL and 60% of the parents do not speak English. Has 27 kids at K-12 reading level. No aides almost no parental support and spends many many hours preparing each night for the next day trying to make a difference with these kids. Loves these kids who are not the best example of respect & discipline or have the best home life.

She does not do this for money as she could make tons more in another field but loves to help others. Wants to get into special needs. Should we pay teachers more? Absolutely! Pay on merit not across the board. If she made $50K it would not be enough for what she does. As for other Gov workes. Sorry but they are not teaching the next generation of citizens. Not near as important to me as a 4 year degree teacher who really cares about what is most important in life. Our Children.

Respect must be earned | 11:11 a.m. Feb. 13, 2008

I always wonder at the need some people feel to exaggerate everything in order to make their point. The vast majority of teachers do NOT work 70 hour weeks, and 93% of the parents in Utah are NOT jerks. Most teachers are very good, and very dedicated, and most parents care about their children's education. The problem is that a small group of parents make teachers have to jump through a lot of hoops, wasting money along the way. The second problem is that there are a not insignificant amount of teachers who are absolutely awful, and shouldn't be paid a dime for the damage they do to our children. We need to stop treating teachers as a uniform product, realize that they differ in their quality, and differentiate pay based on quality, rather than on the length of time they have been on the job. When I say that respect must be earned, I mean that most teachers have already earned our respect, but they could easily seal the deal if they would stop demanding that the lousy teachers who give their profession a bad name keep getting the same pay raises as good teachers.

re Utahn's Are Basically Idiots | 11:13 a.m. Feb. 13, 2008

I for one appreciate teachers and want them to be paid more. I think most people do support and appreciate teachers. The Utah Tax Payers Association has for years fought paying teachers more, but now with the teacher shortage even they are coming around.

Thank you teachers for doing the good job you do inspite of low pay and idotic mandates that come to you from above. In spite of some posts here I at least realize teachers themselves are not responsible for whole language reading or for investigations math.

Some Clueless People | 11:09 a.m. Feb. 13, 2008

If you truly believe that teachers work only their eight hour contract schedule, you are ignorant. Do lessons plan themselves? Do papers grade themselves? I got into teaching after careers in sales and law enforcement. Both were cushy couch potato jobs compared to teaching. I work more hours for lower pay than I ever have in my life, and I do it for your children.

S | 11:12 a.m. Feb. 13, 2008

I think you are all wasting your time. As a young 1st year teacher - I am proud to be a teacher and laugh at the person who says teaching is a 6 hour a day job- haaa! You know nothing.

Negativity Ruins Our Profession | 11:20 a.m. Feb. 13, 2008

With all of the negative comments about the teaching profession, why would anyone want to teach? The answer lies within the realm of wanting to make a difference. Are there poor teachers? Yes. But the majority of us want to make a difference. Those of you who gripe about teachers getting raises really need to get a clue! O.K. I'll spell it out for you.
1. There are less people getting into the teaching profession, those who do leave the state. Why work here in Utah earning $10-20k less than they do in other states with higher workloads and less parental involvement?
2. Teachers have to have a 4 year degree to teach! Those of us who are new graduates, put in many academic hours plus hours of practicum in the classroom. We are learning research based methodology to teach children how to read, write, and perform mathmatical computations. We spend the vast majority of our time heavily engaged in research and preparation for the classroom. (We are not cutting, pasting and learning nursury rhymes; nor are we trying to find "fun" activities to waste time.)

Not that you care, but . . . | 11:17 a.m. Feb. 13, 2008

Pay more, a lot more. Get rid of teachers unions. Make it competetive, so bad teachers get the boot. Insensitive, probably. But teaching school is not (or should not) be seen as a new-deal style government work project for the sake of decreasing unemployment. Our society will, and clearly already is, following closely behind our education system.

Steve G. | 11:20 a.m. Feb. 13, 2008

My wife is a school teacher and last year the legislature came out and said that teachers were getting a $2,500 dollar rase. Then after the issue was no longer covered in the news our wonderful state legislature changed everything and she ended up with a $800 dollar rase. She also gets pain on a 7.5 hour a day salarie. That is the time from when she stats teaching to when she says good-by to her children. She spends on an average of 9 or more hours a day getting everything ready so that she can give the students the best education they deserve. How many of us would work for free?

Negativity Ruins our profession | 11:23 a.m. Feb. 13, 2008

3. Teaching takes much more time than just "the 180" so called days of work. How many of you in the "private" sector have to grade papers and commit to being lifelong learners outside of work time? We are constantly told that we must seek more and more educational oppertunities to further our craft. Summers are usually spent furthering our own education so that we will be able to better support little "Johnny and Suzy" with their learning. Those of us who take the profession seriously are constantly trying to come up with new methods and ideas to teach children the basics.
4. Teachers earning $40-$50k a year typically have earned their masters degree. Most other professions with a masters degree earn much much more. (We are encouraged in our profession to plan on a Masters Degree. Typically though it only earns us another $2 per hour.) This extra degree comes out of our own pocket, just like everyone else.
5. Those of you complaining about benefits... get a life. Our state benefits are not what they used to be, and not much better than the private sector. Sometimes worse depending on the company.

Anonymous | 11:29 a.m. Feb. 13, 2008

$100,000 grand to start would do the trick!

Anonymous | 11:30 a.m. Feb. 13, 2008

$200,000 and we would get some excellent teachers on par with boy scout salaries....

Negativity Ruins our profession | 11:32 a.m. Feb. 13, 2008

What can you do as a parent to support teachers?
1. TURN OFF YOUR T.V.- If you are concerned that your child is not learning what they should, give them a book. Children these days are too wired in to media, and media influences. If you want to make your child smarter, give them books to read.
2. Volunteer in your child's classroom- A worn out teacher always appreciates parents who will come in, make copies, and give a helping hand!
3. Make your home a learning environment- You don't need money to help this happen. Take the time to help your child with homework. Help them with times tables, take them on nature walks, spend time with them. YOU ARE YOUR CHILD'S BEST TEACHER AND EXAMPLE!
4. Let your child's teacher know that you appreciate what they do. Not through gifts or trivial items, but through classroom supplies or a letter of appreciation.
PLEASE let us remember always that children are our future. They are our greatest assets. Teachers are there to support and enhance their learning oppertunities. Show your children that you care by supporting their teacher, not working against them.

Simon Says | 12:00 p.m. Feb. 13, 2008

I sure didn't get the $2,500 increase at the beginning of this year. It was more like $1,000. To "E" - the reason why there is a shortage of teachers is exactly what you suggest we should do if we don't like the pay - Leave and get another job. Grow up. Most teachers will tell you that they do it not for the money, but because they love teaching. What would you be doing if it wasn't for all the teachers that taught you? What sort of qualifications do other lesser paid government employees have?

RE: ST. GEORGE | 12:04 p.m. Feb. 13, 2008

Do all other citizens have numerous years of college and degrees and training beyond that??

Steve G. | 12:26 p.m. Feb. 13, 2008

I was just wondering what was wrong with what I write and why you do not post them? Please let me know

Page:
1
2
Next >

Add your comment

Comments are monitored. Any comments found to be abusive, offensive, off-topic, misrepresentative, more than 200 words or containing URLs will not be posted.

Words Remaining

E-mail address: For internal use only. We may want to contact you to publish your comment (not your e-mail address) in the newspaper or for a separate story idea.