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Gay Mormons request meeting with Pres. Monson
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Janey | 1:01 a.m. Feb. 10, 2008
This Affirmation group already knows what Pres. Monson has to say. They just
want some press to get people reading about them. I can't speak with the
wisdom Pres. Monson has but I can't see he has a choice but to follow
scripture wherein homosexuality is an abomination to the Lord. He also has to
inform them that if they are gay, then they are gay but they are not to have
sexual relations anymore that an unmarried heterosexual couple can. I don't
understand why a gay person would want to be affilliated with the Mormon church
because it requires a pretty strong attachment to the laws of the bible. Why
don't they begin a church of their own where they can go to services
without interruption of those who would stare and wonder. It is too soon to
fight the big fight of "accept me or else!" This will take more time
for people to come around to the universal acceptance that gays and lesbians
desire. Look how far they have come in the last ten years.
Dave | 1:18 a.m. Feb. 10, 2008
Meeting with the Prophet isn't going to change the position of the Church
in relationship to same-sex marriage or relationships. At no point in time did
Christ withdraw the biblical condemnations of acting out on homosexual behavior
or even for sexual relationships outside of marriage for that matter. To say
that you have a testimony but have an issue with the churches stand on the issue
is to contradict yourself and to ignore the fact that God as well as the Church
have been very clear that marriage between and woman is ordained of God.
If you can't handle that I can only suggest that you start your own Church like every other group who came up with a particular issue that they disagreed with and apostasized over. It is Gods church and his will is not open for debate.
If you can't handle that I can only suggest that you start your own Church like every other group who came up with a particular issue that they disagreed with and apostasized over. It is Gods church and his will is not open for debate.
This is the Lord's Church | 2:34 a.m. Feb. 10, 2008
Dave, let's bear in mind that the teachings of the Lord and of the Church
don't condemn those members who suffer from same-sex attraction. They too
are God's children and he loves them. He wouldn't tell them to
"start their own Church" instead this kind of suggestion is of the
devil.
We have been taught the plan of salvation including faith, repentance and enduring to the end. So your comments are hurtful to those who suffer from this temptation. Do you say this to those who struggle with pornography, adultery or the many other sins that confront members of the Church? If someone lies do you tell them to "start their own Church?"
We don't have to agree with Affirmation but we do have to reach out in love, compassion and kindness to those who do suffer from same-sex attraction. We cannot force those who suffer from this temptation to choose between leaving the Church, committing suicide or starting their own Church instead we must help them. To say that you have a testimony and then tell other people to start their own Church is to contradict yourself because no one who has a testimony would say this.
We have been taught the plan of salvation including faith, repentance and enduring to the end. So your comments are hurtful to those who suffer from this temptation. Do you say this to those who struggle with pornography, adultery or the many other sins that confront members of the Church? If someone lies do you tell them to "start their own Church?"
We don't have to agree with Affirmation but we do have to reach out in love, compassion and kindness to those who do suffer from same-sex attraction. We cannot force those who suffer from this temptation to choose between leaving the Church, committing suicide or starting their own Church instead we must help them. To say that you have a testimony and then tell other people to start their own Church is to contradict yourself because no one who has a testimony would say this.
Comments continue below
R | 5:36 a.m. Feb. 10, 2008
Amen to both comments above. Find a church that will agree with you.
Barry | 5:42 a.m. Feb. 10, 2008
Why are they so nieve that they think they can change the will of God. It is
not President Monson's church. It is the Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-day Saints. Read "The Proclamation on the Family". You will
get a clear picture of the Lord's thinking.
Not exclusionary | 7:24 a.m. Feb. 10, 2008
I suppose there are other groups who would become active members of the Church
if their particular brand of apostasy were accepted by Church leaders.
From my experience where I live, same-gender attraction members are accepted and loved. However, they, like the rest of us, can't pick and choose what commandments they live without also accepting the consequences of those choices.
From my experience where I live, same-gender attraction members are accepted and loved. However, they, like the rest of us, can't pick and choose what commandments they live without also accepting the consequences of those choices.
Duh | 7:53 a.m. Feb. 10, 2008
It really puzzles my mind when I hear of groups that support a deviant lifestyle
yet they claim to be Christian?!?
Fredd | 8:13 a.m. Feb. 10, 2008
Why would allowing gays be any different then any other change in Doctrine? You
once preached blacks would only enter heaven as servents. Why can't God
give a revelation to Monson that he changed his mind?
Right On! | 8:44 a.m. Feb. 10, 2008
Janey & Dave are right on. What If I believed in all LDS church doctrine
except for the word of wisdom, and wanted to marry in the temple? Should I
request an audience with the prophet of the church, asking him to change that
requirement? I think not.
Mayhem Mike | 8:45 a.m. Feb. 10, 2008
JANEY, you wrote: "It is too soon to fight the big fight of 'accept me
or else! This will take more time for people to come around to the universal
acceptance that gays and lesbians desire. Look how far they have come in the
last ten years."
Are you implying that most of us eventually will "come around" to acceptance of the gay lifestyle as normal and not perverted? You've got to be kidding. Some of us will continue to adhere to the teachings of the Church, as stated in the Proclamation on the Family, no matter how "intolerant" the gay community or the rest of the world thinks we are. And, I'm sure President Monson will do the same.
Are you implying that most of us eventually will "come around" to acceptance of the gay lifestyle as normal and not perverted? You've got to be kidding. Some of us will continue to adhere to the teachings of the Church, as stated in the Proclamation on the Family, no matter how "intolerant" the gay community or the rest of the world thinks we are. And, I'm sure President Monson will do the same.
Been There . . | 9:23 a.m. Feb. 10, 2008
To Dave and Janey: I am so glad all of this is so simple for you. You
haven't experienced being gay and Mormon as I have. You don't know
the lonliness that exists when you can't be in "the norm" by
betting married, etc. You can be celibate and stay in the church but that is a
pretty lonely life. I hope LDS folks can find compassion for those with these
tendencies. I also hope my comment gets published as I feel it is important.
LDS | 9:26 a.m. Feb. 10, 2008
With all the problems we face on earth today, and all the mixed messages we
receive in how to live our lives in a respectable and good way, the last thing
we need is to confuse the basic nature of the sexes and that they are different
for Gods good reason. Gays are not normal and to try to make it appear normal
is against nature and a normal society. It will wreck our social structure and
destroy civilization. This is apparent to every sane person. No church or
responsible organization will sanction gays as normal or an acceptable culture.
Boiseguy | 10:10 a.m. Feb. 10, 2008
Self Evaluation is in order for these people. I grew up mormon as well and am
gay. I understand the feelings of attachment to the church. Growing up as such
has made it a part of our identity and sense of purpose in the world. With that
said, I would challenge these people to search within themselves for personal
truths. It comes down to two things in regards to what you know is more true to
your heart. 1. that the church and its teachings are 100% true, or 2. That you
were born gay and did not choose it, and that you deserve happiness, a life,
acceptance, and love. I think that if these people really broke into themselves
more they would understand themselves and the church a whole lot better.
You can't make an institution change according to personal desires, you can merely pick your bruised soul and heart up off the ground and go where you fine peace and love. There is life outside of the church and utah, and I wish them all the best of luck.
You can't make an institution change according to personal desires, you can merely pick your bruised soul and heart up off the ground and go where you fine peace and love. There is life outside of the church and utah, and I wish them all the best of luck.
JWK | 10:25 a.m. Feb. 10, 2008
God loves all his children without fail, but that does not mean that all his
children follow him and his commandments. While having same sex attraction is
not a sin acting out against the counsel of the Lord is.
We all have some issue that can really derail us from Father's desires for us. Some deal with pornography, some with attraction to young people, others with drug issues, and there are those who just don't want to follow.
The 10th chapter of Hebrews teaches us that willful disobedience to Father will leave us outside of his kingdom. The Church has approached those with same sex attraction in a loving way, as they are not told not to come to attend, and while some may feel uncomfortable most will open their arms to those striving to deal with their individual weaknesses.
I was excommunicated for my acting out on my weaknesses but I found that the leadership of the Church was very loving towards me. Eventually, I was able to control my weakness to the point that I could return to the Church.
We all have some issue that can really derail us from Father's desires for us. Some deal with pornography, some with attraction to young people, others with drug issues, and there are those who just don't want to follow.
The 10th chapter of Hebrews teaches us that willful disobedience to Father will leave us outside of his kingdom. The Church has approached those with same sex attraction in a loving way, as they are not told not to come to attend, and while some may feel uncomfortable most will open their arms to those striving to deal with their individual weaknesses.
I was excommunicated for my acting out on my weaknesses but I found that the leadership of the Church was very loving towards me. Eventually, I was able to control my weakness to the point that I could return to the Church.
JWK | 10:32 a.m. Feb. 10, 2008
I still have weaknesses that I have to pay attention to so that I don't
fall back into old habits, but I know that Father is pulling for me and helping
me at every bump in the road.
I had to make the choice to obey and leave things in Father's hands, working only on what I had power to deal with. He allows us the choice and we must be willing to accept the consequences of our actions. However, he will not stop loving us and trying to get us to come unto his Son, Jesus Christ.
My life is sometimes lonely, but that is mainly when I feel sorry for myself. I will deal with my weaknesses every day of my life, including some issues which follow me every day because of my actions, but in Christ I can do all things as long as I allow him to be my advocate and helper.
I had to make the choice to obey and leave things in Father's hands, working only on what I had power to deal with. He allows us the choice and we must be willing to accept the consequences of our actions. However, he will not stop loving us and trying to get us to come unto his Son, Jesus Christ.
My life is sometimes lonely, but that is mainly when I feel sorry for myself. I will deal with my weaknesses every day of my life, including some issues which follow me every day because of my actions, but in Christ I can do all things as long as I allow him to be my advocate and helper.
Boiseguy | 10:28 a.m. Feb. 10, 2008
Truth, what is truth? When it comes to truths about our existence and why things
are the way they are? Science is the process in which we find truth, and until
science is able to explain everything truth is a feeling. The church is true
based on a feeling. Being gay and knowing that you were born that way and that
you deserve acceptance and love is a feeling.. while both truths contradict,
they are both truths in this world that deserve to exist. I don't think you
can have your cake and eat it too. Stick with what you know to be real truth,
and you will find peace.. Every anti gay post that I have read, makes good
points, but are only based on tradition and not truth. truth exists in many
forms for many different people, and following tradition is great and
"safe" but the impact on a society will be limited to that safety, and
could very well limit the society from attaining greatness. Hold to your truths
whatever they may be.. don't attack other's truths, but before anyone
thinks they should persuade others from their truth, must consider if they have
a truth at all.
BigPoet | 10:29 a.m. Feb. 10, 2008
People in other churches seek to lobby the leadership to cause changes.
God's church doesn't work that way.
Kevin | 10:42 a.m. Feb. 10, 2008
I must ask my fellow gay folks: why are you bothering to be associated with
these people? They are the ones who are immoral. Why do you want to hang out
with immoral people. Their scripture is fiction. They are either profoundly
gullible or delusional. Think of all the time wasted in church. Go skiing,
go hiking, go on a road trip, read a book, do something fun for crying out loud.
But give up trying to be like them.
To Kevin | 12:08 p.m. Feb. 10, 2008
Thank you for your comments. You hit the nail on the head - you are a waste of
our time.
The Raven | 12:25 p.m. Feb. 10, 2008
Perversion is perversion. The "gay rights" movement will not be happy
with the LDS Church or any other Church until they are completely accepted and
praised as being ok. However, their behavior is not ok. It's condemned both
in the Old and New Testaments. For LDS people, the Church's leaders have
also condemned the practice of homosexuality. Wrong is wrong. However,
"gays" and their supporters want the Church to start marrying
homosexuals in our temples. It's not going to happen!
Dave | 12:38 p.m. Feb. 10, 2008
This is the Lords Church,
Telling Affirmation to start their own church if they have an issue is no more of the devil then their attempts to get the Church to change because they can't deal with this burden that is one of their trials in this life. All the other situations you try to equate my comments to require stretching reality. Adulterers, those who have problems with pornography, and a few other choice sinners who don't repent of their sin or repeatedly offend are excommunicated.
Christ taught to love the sinner but to hate the sin.
By attacking what I said and taking it out of complete context and accusing me of not having a testimony doesn't say much for the state of your own testimony.
Telling Affirmation to start their own church if they have an issue is no more of the devil then their attempts to get the Church to change because they can't deal with this burden that is one of their trials in this life. All the other situations you try to equate my comments to require stretching reality. Adulterers, those who have problems with pornography, and a few other choice sinners who don't repent of their sin or repeatedly offend are excommunicated.
Christ taught to love the sinner but to hate the sin.
By attacking what I said and taking it out of complete context and accusing me of not having a testimony doesn't say much for the state of your own testimony.
Tom | 12:39 p.m. Feb. 10, 2008
Kevin,
Maybe you should have been clearer on your scriptures being fiction if that includes the bible since your comments aren't clear if you are referring to the LDS faith or all Christians. Because the Bible is pretty clear on the matter of homosexuality even though most Christian churches have no problem re-writing the gospel to cater to their members needs.
Maybe you should have been clearer on your scriptures being fiction if that includes the bible since your comments aren't clear if you are referring to the LDS faith or all Christians. Because the Bible is pretty clear on the matter of homosexuality even though most Christian churches have no problem re-writing the gospel to cater to their members needs.
The Bible says | 1:06 p.m. Feb. 10, 2008
The Bible says homosexuality is a serious sin. Sodom and Gomorrah were
destroyed! Get a clue people! It is also a sin to hate gay people and the LDS
faith teaches to love all. It is wrong to hate anyone. But all Christians should
know if they believe in the Bible that it is totally wrong and a great sin. One
of the greatest sins of all. If these people don't like it they should join
another church instead of attack President Monson and other church members. The
church teaches love and that which is of Christ.
Kevin | 1:25 p.m. Feb. 10, 2008
Tom,
To be clear, I believe all scripture is fiction. It's a joke. It's not moral. I challenge you and other pious fools to read Exodus 21, and you tell me what you think is moral and clear.
To be clear, I believe all scripture is fiction. It's a joke. It's not moral. I challenge you and other pious fools to read Exodus 21, and you tell me what you think is moral and clear.
Boiseguy | 1:22 p.m. Feb. 10, 2008
Why do gays want to be accepted by the church? The church is what it is... life
is too short to fight such battles, As for members of the church, why do you see
fit to act foolishly and defend something that is not yours to defend. If the
church is true like you believe, then it is everyone's and does not need to
be defended OR spoken for because you are just a simple human being with faults
as well. I really dislike organized religion because of this. It doesn't
bring peace and joy to people, it just brings heartache and despair especially
if you aren't part of the "club"
Gay mormons are dealing with a lot, so don't cast them off as digusting gutter trash, because they aren't, many grew up faithful and in good families and are good people.
Frankly the anti-gay comments coming from SOME church members on this board are disgusting and rude at best, and do not do the church any service whatsoever... You should be ashamed..have fun in your heaven, so long as people like you are there, I don't want to be... thanks but no thanks
Gay mormons are dealing with a lot, so don't cast them off as digusting gutter trash, because they aren't, many grew up faithful and in good families and are good people.
Frankly the anti-gay comments coming from SOME church members on this board are disgusting and rude at best, and do not do the church any service whatsoever... You should be ashamed..have fun in your heaven, so long as people like you are there, I don't want to be... thanks but no thanks
Need for Love and Compassion | 1:46 p.m. Feb. 10, 2008
As a "straight" and active LDS member with a gay cousin, bi-sexual
good friend, and a number of past and present colleagues who are same-sex
oriented, I promise you: The greatest lessons we can learn from our brothers and
sisters with this challenge are compassion and tolerance.
What I mean is NOT that we should succumb to the world by changing LDS doctrine or dismissing homosexuality as normal. I've seen the misery and alienation associated with this lifestyle first-hand. The ironically named "gay" lifestyle is not what God has ordained for His children. I know this.
But here's what else I know: We're not truly the Christians we profess ourselves to be if we blindly countenance, much less practice, the bigotry and hatred often showered upon these of His children. We still need to love and show compassion towards those who struggle with this difficulty and others.
Comments like "find another church," "perversion is perversion," and other unkind phrases wound rather than heal. Same-sex orientation leads away from God--as does sanctimonious mean-spiritedness and bigotry in the name of God. Christ denounced ALL of these.
We can--and should--be loving and compassionate without excusing the sin.
What I mean is NOT that we should succumb to the world by changing LDS doctrine or dismissing homosexuality as normal. I've seen the misery and alienation associated with this lifestyle first-hand. The ironically named "gay" lifestyle is not what God has ordained for His children. I know this.
But here's what else I know: We're not truly the Christians we profess ourselves to be if we blindly countenance, much less practice, the bigotry and hatred often showered upon these of His children. We still need to love and show compassion towards those who struggle with this difficulty and others.
Comments like "find another church," "perversion is perversion," and other unkind phrases wound rather than heal. Same-sex orientation leads away from God--as does sanctimonious mean-spiritedness and bigotry in the name of God. Christ denounced ALL of these.
We can--and should--be loving and compassionate without excusing the sin.
Celibate and not lonely | 5:07 p.m. Feb. 10, 2008
What about all of hundreds of single women that through no fault of their own
are not married.
They remain celibate...they are actively involved with their familes and being of service. I don't
think anyone has ever "died" from lack of sexual activity. I am not being mean spirited as I have a homosexual nephew and a transgender nephew...I don't understand it but I do know that I love them dearly and know that they are good, caring people sharing the earth with me. Our church has given the best advice......"don't act upon same sex attraction".
They remain celibate...they are actively involved with their familes and being of service. I don't
think anyone has ever "died" from lack of sexual activity. I am not being mean spirited as I have a homosexual nephew and a transgender nephew...I don't understand it but I do know that I love them dearly and know that they are good, caring people sharing the earth with me. Our church has given the best advice......"don't act upon same sex attraction".
Ryan | 5:21 p.m. Feb. 10, 2008
Speaking as someone who determined that leaving the church would be better than
living in absolute misery, let me explain a few things to those who would
condemn us before looking at who we are:
1. I was disowned by my family when they found out I was gay.
2. I have picked myself up, completed college without their support because my gay friends stepped in and became my supportive family.
3. I left the church because it is slowly moving to the point that you have to accept what is said as 100% correct without following your own heart.
If Elder Oaks and the other brethren think it is better to kick out a child because they were born gay, then some serious thinking needs to be done. What happened to me happened, however I am better than the bunch because I was not the one with harsh words in the end. It is sad to see a church that says one thing and does another. President Hinkley said that gay children should be loved. I guess you show that love by kicking them out. I do not regret leaving the church.
1. I was disowned by my family when they found out I was gay.
2. I have picked myself up, completed college without their support because my gay friends stepped in and became my supportive family.
3. I left the church because it is slowly moving to the point that you have to accept what is said as 100% correct without following your own heart.
If Elder Oaks and the other brethren think it is better to kick out a child because they were born gay, then some serious thinking needs to be done. What happened to me happened, however I am better than the bunch because I was not the one with harsh words in the end. It is sad to see a church that says one thing and does another. President Hinkley said that gay children should be loved. I guess you show that love by kicking them out. I do not regret leaving the church.
Need for love... | 6:37 p.m. Feb. 10, 2008
So are you saying perversion is not perversion?
Are you with BoiseGuy in saying that truth is only your point of view, have fun now because that's what's important?
Are you with BoiseGuy in saying that truth is only your point of view, have fun now because that's what's important?
Gus | 7:01 p.m. Feb. 10, 2008
It is incredibly destructive for people like "Janey" to tell gays to
go start their own church. "Why don't they begin a church of their own
where they can go to services without interruption of those who would stare and
wonder." you say. Well, the reason they don't go start their own
church is because they believe in the LDS church and have testimonies that it is
the one and only true Church on the earth. But they have gay tendencies that
they can't explain and if they act on those tendencies, well then that
contradicts the gospel. So I believe many gay mormons are confused and feel very
lost. It isn't helpful to cast them out like you do. Although I am not gay,
I do sympathize with the gay mormon dilemma and think that all mormon's
should do more to show their love.
To Kevin | 8:31 p.m. Feb. 10, 2008
I can only feel sorrow for you to never really KNOW truth and the source of it.
Hopefully you will discover the error of your ways BEFORE it is too late for
you.
I do believe the scriptures and they testify of their truth when you say "Think of all the time wasted in church. Go skiing, go hiking, go on a road trip, read a book, do something fun for crying out loud." A good list of fun and pleasing things to do with ones time.
The scripture tell us in the last days people will think and do just as you say. 2 Timothy 3:1-4 says:
This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
For men (mankind) shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, BLASPHEMERS, disobedient to parents, unthankful, UNHOLY,
WITHOUT NATURAL AFFECTION, trucebreakers, false accusers, INCONTINENT, fierce, DESPISERS OF THOSE THAT ARE GOOD,
traitors, heady, highminded, LOVERS OF PLEASURES MORE THEN LOVERS OF GOD.
I CAPITALIZED a few words and phrases that apply to the discussion and your comments.
Every time you speak it confirms the truth of the scriptures more to me and others that REALLY KNOW the truth!
I do believe the scriptures and they testify of their truth when you say "Think of all the time wasted in church. Go skiing, go hiking, go on a road trip, read a book, do something fun for crying out loud." A good list of fun and pleasing things to do with ones time.
The scripture tell us in the last days people will think and do just as you say. 2 Timothy 3:1-4 says:
This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
For men (mankind) shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, BLASPHEMERS, disobedient to parents, unthankful, UNHOLY,
WITHOUT NATURAL AFFECTION, trucebreakers, false accusers, INCONTINENT, fierce, DESPISERS OF THOSE THAT ARE GOOD,
traitors, heady, highminded, LOVERS OF PLEASURES MORE THEN LOVERS OF GOD.
I CAPITALIZED a few words and phrases that apply to the discussion and your comments.
Every time you speak it confirms the truth of the scriptures more to me and others that REALLY KNOW the truth!
Robert | 8:32 p.m. Feb. 10, 2008
Pres. Hinckley spoke many times about those who have same-sex attraction, and it
was always with compassion and a desire to reach out with loving arms while
never wavering on condemning homosexual actions along with all other sexual
sins.
Having helped several Church members on this issue, I know that life as a Church member is tough for them. Too many members make hurtful remarks. Too many leaders are unprepared to give proper counsel. The Church membership has plenty of growth to accomplish in this regard to truly treat all our brothers and sisters with Christ-like love, respect, compassion, and honest concern. But as usual, the general Church leadership has been way ahead of the rest of us.
I hope Church members with SSA will be patient with the rest of us!
Having helped several Church members on this issue, I know that life as a Church member is tough for them. Too many members make hurtful remarks. Too many leaders are unprepared to give proper counsel. The Church membership has plenty of growth to accomplish in this regard to truly treat all our brothers and sisters with Christ-like love, respect, compassion, and honest concern. But as usual, the general Church leadership has been way ahead of the rest of us.
I hope Church members with SSA will be patient with the rest of us!
LDS individual | 8:50 p.m. Feb. 10, 2008
It is stated in scripture that God cannot look upon sin with the least degree of
allowance.
The sin is not being attracted to those of the same sex, it is acting upon those desires.
I still struggle to find truth in the "born that way" statements and that tells me there is no truth to it. Tell people something long enough they will believe it. I wonder who has been telling those defending this lifestyle they were born this way and it is natural to act upon those feelings?
Read Moroni 7:15-17 and ask yourselves who is trying to convince everyone this is ok?
The atonement of Christ allows him to offer companionship to those who are lonely for any reason (divorce, betrayal, even same sex attraction). What is better than to seek companionship of Christ. Something which is unnatural to GOD (seeking acceptance and pleasure in same sex acts)? I KNOW for certain this is will not bring the happiness they seek, for GOD has said it.
The sin is not being attracted to those of the same sex, it is acting upon those desires.
I still struggle to find truth in the "born that way" statements and that tells me there is no truth to it. Tell people something long enough they will believe it. I wonder who has been telling those defending this lifestyle they were born this way and it is natural to act upon those feelings?
Read Moroni 7:15-17 and ask yourselves who is trying to convince everyone this is ok?
The atonement of Christ allows him to offer companionship to those who are lonely for any reason (divorce, betrayal, even same sex attraction). What is better than to seek companionship of Christ. Something which is unnatural to GOD (seeking acceptance and pleasure in same sex acts)? I KNOW for certain this is will not bring the happiness they seek, for GOD has said it.
To Kevin again | 9:01 p.m. Feb. 10, 2008
You do error in understanding the scriptures. The law of Moses was intended to
teach STRICT OBEDIENCE. Christ fulfilled that law and taught the law of
compassion, repentance, and forgiveness.
He never took away concequences for or taught acceptance of sin. He only give a person a time to repent and prepare to meet God. I hope you take the opportunity Christ has provided to you.
Obedience to God's commands brings happiness, disobedience brings eternal misery. Not I did not say you will only be miserable (many fun and pleasing things to do in life even sins can bring pleasure although temporary), rather that the end (judgement seat of Christ) will be that of misery and regret.
He never took away concequences for or taught acceptance of sin. He only give a person a time to repent and prepare to meet God. I hope you take the opportunity Christ has provided to you.
Obedience to God's commands brings happiness, disobedience brings eternal misery. Not I did not say you will only be miserable (many fun and pleasing things to do in life even sins can bring pleasure although temporary), rather that the end (judgement seat of Christ) will be that of misery and regret.
RE: Need for love @6:37 | 9:17 p.m. Feb. 10, 2008
What I'm saying is that "perversion" is an ugly and hateful word,
and wounds those who hear it. I'll bet "Ryan" above heard it
often. His experience is a shameful commentary on how some of us are so
"righteous," at least in our own minds, that we throw the baby out
with the bathwater.
Read my comments carefully and know that I understand VERY well that the Church is correct on this--both to oppose homosexuality for the sin it is AND to urge treating those predisposed to this temptation with kindness and charity. Otherwise, we might as well join the Westboro so-called Baptists.
We can--and we must--stand up for what's right without destroying the souls of those who are very much still children of God.
Read my comments carefully and know that I understand VERY well that the Church is correct on this--both to oppose homosexuality for the sin it is AND to urge treating those predisposed to this temptation with kindness and charity. Otherwise, we might as well join the Westboro so-called Baptists.
We can--and we must--stand up for what's right without destroying the souls of those who are very much still children of God.
Boiseguy | 9:26 p.m. Feb. 10, 2008
truth is what you feel, you cannot prove the church is any more true than a
catholic can prove his to be true. that is what faith is, belief in something
that cannot be proven. And you all want to sit here and condemn.. then change
your stance to pity, and quote your little scriptures from your books and call
that evidence. meanwhile there is physical evidence of human life and existance
LONG before the pages of your books were ever written. So that is why I say,
truth is a matter of personal truth.. and if you as a person of faith want to
attack others for not believing your truth, you better understand your own
position better. People in Glass houses shouldn't throw stones...because
not everyone believes in stories and myths.. things you like to call truth...
and while in utah you all might seem normal, remember elsewhere You all are the
weird ones.. life is a two way street.. so be nice and tolerant of other
people's path in life... the path you are on is not holier or more blessed.
If you think otherwise, please do yourself a favor and stay in utah.
Need for Love and Compassion II | 9:48 p.m. Feb. 10, 2008
Several posters here need to read "God Loveth His Children"--an
official Church publication explaining how to approach same-sex attraction. What
I've said here is more or less what the First Presidency and Quorum of the
Twelve have said there.
Read it. It's only a few mouse clicks away, right on the Church website. As prophets of the Lord, they really do get it--that SSA members can and should be loved despite their weaknesses, as ALL of us should be. (I suspect the "Affirmation" group doesn't quite understand the Church leaders' true attitude, either.)
Christ himself reached out to those whose spirits were willing, but whose flesh was weak. More members of the Church should be practicing this attitude of opposing the sin while still loving the sinner. Several unfortunate people on this board can testify of the pain that results when justice-oriented people forget to be merciful.
Many of the rest of us have persistent and quasi-addictive weaknesses in other areas of our lives that keep us from God, too. If we want Him to show us mercy for these weaknesses of our own, shouldn't we show mercy for others' weaknesses?
Read it. It's only a few mouse clicks away, right on the Church website. As prophets of the Lord, they really do get it--that SSA members can and should be loved despite their weaknesses, as ALL of us should be. (I suspect the "Affirmation" group doesn't quite understand the Church leaders' true attitude, either.)
Christ himself reached out to those whose spirits were willing, but whose flesh was weak. More members of the Church should be practicing this attitude of opposing the sin while still loving the sinner. Several unfortunate people on this board can testify of the pain that results when justice-oriented people forget to be merciful.
Many of the rest of us have persistent and quasi-addictive weaknesses in other areas of our lives that keep us from God, too. If we want Him to show us mercy for these weaknesses of our own, shouldn't we show mercy for others' weaknesses?
To Boiseguy | 12:02 a.m. Feb. 11, 2008
How convient to make truth what ever ones desires it to be. How is that truth?
It is chaos not truth.
Example, if I killed someone because I felt it was ok, by your definition ("truth is what you feel") it would be truth that it was ok for me to kill. That is not truth.
God is the source of all truth! Period!! Sceintists can only discover truth. We have God's words in the scriptures and from a living Prophet!! God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He has always said that acting on SSA and doing that which is not natural is a sin. Sorry if you do not like that, but I and I am sure the church will NEVER say anything different.
Even if you do not believe the scriptures or even that God exists, does not change the truth that the scriptures are true and God does live.
Prove to me that atoms exist. You cannot. There are some that can explain they exist in ways that we can accept, yet I have never seen one and neither have you. BTW atoms do exist.
Sorry you cannot accept that someone else may have truth.
Example, if I killed someone because I felt it was ok, by your definition ("truth is what you feel") it would be truth that it was ok for me to kill. That is not truth.
God is the source of all truth! Period!! Sceintists can only discover truth. We have God's words in the scriptures and from a living Prophet!! God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He has always said that acting on SSA and doing that which is not natural is a sin. Sorry if you do not like that, but I and I am sure the church will NEVER say anything different.
Even if you do not believe the scriptures or even that God exists, does not change the truth that the scriptures are true and God does live.
Prove to me that atoms exist. You cannot. There are some that can explain they exist in ways that we can accept, yet I have never seen one and neither have you. BTW atoms do exist.
Sorry you cannot accept that someone else may have truth.
Trying | 1:01 a.m. Feb. 11, 2008
My brother has recently announced that he is gay. While our family does not
condone his deciding to act out on this temptation he is experiencing, he is
still our brother and we love him. I would never consider disowning him or
kicking him out of our family. He knows that we do not agree with how he is
choosing to live his life, but he also knows that if our relationships are
severed it will be because he pulls away from us-not the other way around. I
think it becomes harder and harder for people to be around those who don't
think the way they do and that is why a lot of gay people feel estranged from
family. I find it very sad and disturbing that latter-day saints would disown
family members at the time when they need help the most. You can say that I am
naieve or living in a dream world, but I believe that Christ would act in this
way and am hoping to emulate him in my own actions.
Peace & Respect | 7:55 a.m. Feb. 11, 2008
To Boiseguy,
I find it hard to believe you are looking for acceptance from the LDS church. You seem very set in your ways and opinions to be looking for affirmation.
It seems you are more interested in leading some away from the things they hold as truths.
My uncle is Gay and he left the Church years ago. He ALSO left the church alone! He may not believe in all that I do, but he has NEVER tried to persuade me to change my faith. He also has enough respect for my family that children never know he is Gay.
Do what you want with your life. You have the agency paid for by Christ. He will be your advocate at the judgment seat.
Free advice to all: Listen to the counsel in the scriptures; follow the guidance for the road to inner peace and happiness.
I find it hard to believe you are looking for acceptance from the LDS church. You seem very set in your ways and opinions to be looking for affirmation.
It seems you are more interested in leading some away from the things they hold as truths.
My uncle is Gay and he left the Church years ago. He ALSO left the church alone! He may not believe in all that I do, but he has NEVER tried to persuade me to change my faith. He also has enough respect for my family that children never know he is Gay.
Do what you want with your life. You have the agency paid for by Christ. He will be your advocate at the judgment seat.
Free advice to all: Listen to the counsel in the scriptures; follow the guidance for the road to inner peace and happiness.
john in texas | 11:08 a.m. Feb. 11, 2008
Question? What if it had been Adam and Evan or Eve and Alida in Eden? But it
wasn't. A bunch of people will want to slam dunk me when I say the
homosexual lifestyle is a learned behavior. So be it. I am glad it was Adam and
Eve, otherwise none of us would be here.
well said | 12:26 p.m. Feb. 11, 2008
To Trying and John in Texas:
Well said.
Well said.
MODERN PHARISEES | 12:48 p.m. Feb. 11, 2008
Forums like this reveals that times have not changed in the least, nor have we
learned the lessons of the past.
I see that the Pharisees which the Lord despised, which had self declared their superiority to the world as to their devotion, their faiths, and their righteous hearts, also declaring openly as to their great heights which they saw themselves in the Lord's eyes, by praying loudly in public of their discipleship.
Then there was a man that prayed, "forgive me Lord, for my sins. I am a man that's a sinner, full of mistakes, seeking your mercy".
This forum reveals more than ever of men, LDS members, Christians alike, all acting very much like the Pharisees.
I guess you have successfully sustained the words that Christ has said, "Your lips draws near me, but your hearts are far from me".
I see that the Pharisees which the Lord despised, which had self declared their superiority to the world as to their devotion, their faiths, and their righteous hearts, also declaring openly as to their great heights which they saw themselves in the Lord's eyes, by praying loudly in public of their discipleship.
Then there was a man that prayed, "forgive me Lord, for my sins. I am a man that's a sinner, full of mistakes, seeking your mercy".
This forum reveals more than ever of men, LDS members, Christians alike, all acting very much like the Pharisees.
I guess you have successfully sustained the words that Christ has said, "Your lips draws near me, but your hearts are far from me".
Boiseguy | 1:59 p.m. Feb. 11, 2008
I'm not seeking acceptance from the church, I'm here telling other gay
people to pick up and move on from the church... there is life and happiness
outside of the church, and if that angers or upsets anyone then I'm
sorry...the church is not the end's all in this world... I can accept that
others have truth... and that I may be a horrible sinner... all I have to say to
you is... you better be right..
good day....
good day....
RE: Modern Pharisees | 1:59 p.m. Feb. 11, 2008
I'd be interested to know precisely whose comments you're
referencing... There's been a lot of variation here on this board.
Some's rather mean-spirited, yes. I also see some evidence of people trying
to be compassionate and understanding, too. So just to throw a blanket over all
of it and tell everyone they're being Pharisees, compassionate or not,
strikes me as more than a bit judgmental in and of itself.
More clarification, please?
More clarification, please?
Re: Pharisees | 2:19 p.m. Feb. 11, 2008
Christ never OK'd homosexuality. If you would just give me a couple of
scriptural examples (not taken out of context) where you feel Christ would have
loved this particular sin; it would enlighten us all.
According to Christ... Forgivness: Go thy way and SIN NO MORE!
All can receive his mercy if they will just follow him and his teachings.
We can love the sinner without accepting or encouraging the sin.
It could be said by many that you are guilty of the sins you accuse LDS members and Christians of... but I won't attempt to juge you. I will leave it to the Lord.
According to Christ... Forgivness: Go thy way and SIN NO MORE!
All can receive his mercy if they will just follow him and his teachings.
We can love the sinner without accepting or encouraging the sin.
It could be said by many that you are guilty of the sins you accuse LDS members and Christians of... but I won't attempt to juge you. I will leave it to the Lord.
RangerGordon | 3:20 p.m. Feb. 11, 2008
Yes, gay Mormons are deluded--but not for being gay. They're deluded for
continuing to think that a god who doesn't love them is worth worshiping.
There are plenty of gods who love their gay children, and they deserve worship
more.
Those who think gays want acceptance have it all backwards. We don't care whether you "accept" us or not. You can stamp your feet and judge and fret and worry all you like. We don't care. No skin off our nose.
We just demand equal protection under the law.
Those who think gays want acceptance have it all backwards. We don't care whether you "accept" us or not. You can stamp your feet and judge and fret and worry all you like. We don't care. No skin off our nose.
We just demand equal protection under the law.
RE: RangerGordon, Boiseguy | 5:30 p.m. Feb. 11, 2008
But both of you are missing the point, sorry to say. Truth isn't ONLY what
you make it out to be, and it's not ONLY what's immovable,
unalterable, and unchanging. It's BOTH. There is Truth that is Eternal
and will not change, no matter what we think or say about it. And there is ALSO
truth we construct and decide for ourselves--and that stuff changes all the
time. One's Gospel Truth, while the other is mere sociology. We need to
understand the difference.
Here, we're dealing with both levels as well. God loves His gay children, but He doesn't have to love what they're doing. The problem isn't solved if we just decide we don't like Truth, so we're going to pretend it doesn't exist and make our own social truth instead. Or we leave a church behind with True doctrine, but members whose understanding sometimes more resembles constructed truth in some respects. That understanding changes. And it should!
We love and forgive each other as the humans we are, despite our weaknesses. No argument here--some/many LDS members should be doing better at that! But we don't try to transform Truth into truth.
Here, we're dealing with both levels as well. God loves His gay children, but He doesn't have to love what they're doing. The problem isn't solved if we just decide we don't like Truth, so we're going to pretend it doesn't exist and make our own social truth instead. Or we leave a church behind with True doctrine, but members whose understanding sometimes more resembles constructed truth in some respects. That understanding changes. And it should!
We love and forgive each other as the humans we are, despite our weaknesses. No argument here--some/many LDS members should be doing better at that! But we don't try to transform Truth into truth.
RangerGordon | 9:20 p.m. Feb. 11, 2008
Anonymous 5:30: You can have your "Truth," as many people of faith
have. I am not a member of your particular faith, but I do have strong spiritual
convictions, and I believe my Truth to be just as divinely inspired and
immutable as you believe yours to be. It's hard to believe when you're
a person of faith, I know. Aren't we all.
But, just as nothing I could say will dissuade you from your Truth, what makes you think you can dissuade me from mine? So we're back to square one. Battlin' Truths.
Unfortunately, judges can't decide on matters of Truth; they must decide on matters of truth--that is, equality and the law. I know it seems unfair that you must relegate your Truth to your church and me to mine, when I know we would all be much happier and peaceful adopting my faith, but that's just the way things are.
After all, once African slavery was widely believed to be a Biblical "Truth"--and we're all now very glad that truth proved to be quite a bit less Eternal than was thought at the time.
But, just as nothing I could say will dissuade you from your Truth, what makes you think you can dissuade me from mine? So we're back to square one. Battlin' Truths.
Unfortunately, judges can't decide on matters of Truth; they must decide on matters of truth--that is, equality and the law. I know it seems unfair that you must relegate your Truth to your church and me to mine, when I know we would all be much happier and peaceful adopting my faith, but that's just the way things are.
After all, once African slavery was widely believed to be a Biblical "Truth"--and we're all now very glad that truth proved to be quite a bit less Eternal than was thought at the time.
From Modern Pharisees | 9:57 p.m. Feb. 11, 2008
Look, lets transform the word homosexuality contained in the scriptures, with
the word, Sin.
Lets see how many of you are not affected by the statements written. Lets see where did Christ has OK'd that men are to commit sin and it's acceptable in His eyes.
When the context of homosexuality is just another sin, that you may not be practising, but certainly you're committing other sins, which then are you so innocent and free of guilt beyond the homos?
In other words, are your sins so small that you'll get to heaven but not the homos?
Are your sins so forgivable and not the homos?
It's very easy to point out sins upon others, because it's so hard to admit that we're all going down to hell anyway, and only the Savior can make the judgment to get you out.
So, unless you're that Savior, it's a little ridiculous to laugh or point at a person that's on a sinking boat to save themselves, when you, and everyone else are on that very same boat.
Lets see how many of you are not affected by the statements written. Lets see where did Christ has OK'd that men are to commit sin and it's acceptable in His eyes.
When the context of homosexuality is just another sin, that you may not be practising, but certainly you're committing other sins, which then are you so innocent and free of guilt beyond the homos?
In other words, are your sins so small that you'll get to heaven but not the homos?
Are your sins so forgivable and not the homos?
It's very easy to point out sins upon others, because it's so hard to admit that we're all going down to hell anyway, and only the Savior can make the judgment to get you out.
So, unless you're that Savior, it's a little ridiculous to laugh or point at a person that's on a sinking boat to save themselves, when you, and everyone else are on that very same boat.
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