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Measure targets undocumented
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Chris | 2:13 p.m. Feb. 9, 2008
Everyone should read Alan's of Orem comment. I agree totally with him. I
know of a person who works with rounding up "illegals". They just
come back. I also know of children citizens whose parents have been deported and
are back (somewhere in another state). But I feel compassion and empathy for
those families who are just trying to survive and are hardworking people. I
know how it is to just try an d survive. There is need for immigration laws
that will let people enter this country legally without the long wait to work
and pay taxes. There are plenty of jobs that people will not take and immigrants
will in order to work for a better life. And, finally, as far as illegal
activity by illegals and legals is concerned--we need to concentrate on the
safety of our people and country. Such issues as terrorist activity, drug
dealing and drugs (drugs ruin and devestate lives and lead to many other
crimes), violent crime, etc. should be dealt with first. If we don't get a
border control in first, then many of the other efforts will be in vain.
Justice shouldn't rob mercy; mercy shouldn't rob justice.
dave4197 | 2:48 p.m. Feb. 9, 2008
veedub, I have to speak out against this ill conceived law that tries to pile on
the illegals with more illegality. And against your (and others) opinions which
I find extremely wrong, whether I win the debate or not. Not trolling, I just
couldn't get a post to register on line early in the a.m. What we need is
to change the federal law to make immigration easier, more practical, and more
available. We affluent US citizens can not stand on one side of our border and
forbid those poor neighbors and friends in Mexico to cross to our side and work
in good paying jobs. We US citizens have the resources to help, thru education,
thru job related investments. We can afford to help. Your post, and
others' posts in favor of this Utah law are really just about keeping
Mexicans out by a thinly veiled stance concerning the "rule of law".
I'm for changing the federal law as a start in solving a problem of extreme disparity between friends across a border. Join me and call out our legislators to take down this wrong minded new "law".
I'm for changing the federal law as a start in solving a problem of extreme disparity between friends across a border. Join me and call out our legislators to take down this wrong minded new "law".
Comments continue below
to Dave 4197 | 2:47 p.m. Feb. 9, 2008
We already have laws that allow people to immigrate into this country. Its just
that most of the people that come choose to violate the laws. It sounds like you
would have us coddle the lawbreakers. When do we stop. Do we coddle theives
(illegals steal peoples IDs). Do we coddle people that murder. Where does it
stop. I say stop it all, including the illegals that openly show there disregard
for our country, way of life, and our laws.
dave4197 | 3:04 p.m. Feb. 9, 2008
Stewart, a better "difficult decision" would be to allow those 6
billion you mentioned to compete on a level playing field with us relatively
affluent US workers. Please take note of the reunification of Germany, where
the West Germans took in their poor friends from the soviet controlled east
Germany. For several years Germany's economy suffered. Now the united
country flourishes. Mexicans share a border with us, and they share a history
of residence in the US southwest. We need to help Mexico and Mexicans become
partners in today's economy. Not outcasts. We're not at war with
them.
We stand for opportunity and human rights. Somehow this Utah bill, patterned after the Oklahoma bill, looks like puke when compared with US values.
Lawmakers need to separate out the border security problem (which is truly minor) from the true illegal problems (which are smaller than all this fuss) and allow much more free passage and association. Amnesty works for me. Bad laws got us where we are.
Bienvenidos, amigos de Mexico
We stand for opportunity and human rights. Somehow this Utah bill, patterned after the Oklahoma bill, looks like puke when compared with US values.
Lawmakers need to separate out the border security problem (which is truly minor) from the true illegal problems (which are smaller than all this fuss) and allow much more free passage and association. Amnesty works for me. Bad laws got us where we are.
Bienvenidos, amigos de Mexico
Gus | 3:20 p.m. Feb. 9, 2008
I have no problem with anyone who can work a full day and pay taxes on the wage
he/she makes. This way, you help the economy, you provide for yourself, and you
pay into the education and other government funds that support our state. But
most illegals are getting a free ride by working here and not paying taxes. I
have a big problem with that.
Spoc | 3:51 p.m. Feb. 9, 2008
One thing I find lacking so far is any discussion of why we have laws that
attempt to control immigration. Calls for compassion and demands for enforcement
can only be resolved when we understand why those laws exist. Enforcement of the
law because it�s the law is a little like the "because
I'm the Mom" argument.
Our country is capable of generating great prosperity and opportunity and is in part fueled by a need for people. We also share that wealth as consumers of goods produced in countries around the world. However, like the Goose that Laid the Golden Eggs, there are limits to how fast that wealth can be generated and the rate at which an immigrant population can be absorbed. If we become impatient and attempt to open the borders with our compassion for all the poor of the world, we kill the goose and all wind up poor having destroyed the source of wealth. At the same time our actions are also causing great harm to Mexico. Many areas of Mexico are now so devoid of working age people that businesses cannot find employees and are forced to close.
(continued)
Our country is capable of generating great prosperity and opportunity and is in part fueled by a need for people. We also share that wealth as consumers of goods produced in countries around the world. However, like the Goose that Laid the Golden Eggs, there are limits to how fast that wealth can be generated and the rate at which an immigrant population can be absorbed. If we become impatient and attempt to open the borders with our compassion for all the poor of the world, we kill the goose and all wind up poor having destroyed the source of wealth. At the same time our actions are also causing great harm to Mexico. Many areas of Mexico are now so devoid of working age people that businesses cannot find employees and are forced to close.
(continued)
We can't control Mexico. | 4:11 p.m. Feb. 9, 2008
These people come from Mexico and other countries with little regard for their
welfare. Yes, I can understand why they would want to come to America. But our
country is like a business. It can fail when it is managed poorly. If you have
ever worked in a business, like I am sure many of you have, you understand that
you can't give away your goods and services. If we are to be good
managers/stewards of this country, and we want our kids and grandkids to enjoy
the rights and privileges that we enjoy, we will have to enforce the laws that
protect those rights and privileges. As for the future, we need a strong border.
As for the present, I only feel we should deport illegals who commit crimes.
Others, including children, should be included in our system, so they can work
legally and also pay taxes and be accountable like those who have been here a
few generations longer. I would not suggest raiding every potentially illegal
household and shipping them back home.
Hyporcrisy | 4:27 p.m. Feb. 9, 2008
The Government knows full well that illegal people come to work here. They know
it's essential. And they love that they are low paid and don't have
much insurance. Yet they bark this rhetoric about stopping it and they blame
these workers for all the problems in the country. That's weak.
Droppin' Science | 4:26 p.m. Feb. 9, 2008
You gotta give amnesty to those here and then SERIOUSLY crack down on employers
in the future. Border walls are a fantasy. Border CONTROL is a fantasy.
Employers need to be taken to task. It's supply and demand, baby. If we
give them jobs, they'll come and take them. Heaven knows we don't have
enough teenagers here to take care of all the gardening and construction
themselves. But to made raids and deport them, why, that's just
ridiculously Hitler-like.
RC | 8:50 p.m. Feb. 9, 2008
Just ask the Indians why you need to control immigration.
Immigrants pay taxes | 10:07 p.m. Feb. 9, 2008
Where is everybody getting the idea that these people are not paying taxes? What
taxes don't they pay? They pay income tax when their pay is withheld each
paycheck. They have social security tax withheld with every paycheck (and this
is tax for a benefit they probably will never receive). They pay 6% sales tax
with every purchase. They pay gas tax every time they fill their tank. They pay
to license their cars. They pay property tax if they own real estate. The only
way they might not pay taxes is if law-breaking U.S. citizen here is willing to
pay them cash under the table.
Taxes? | 10:15 p.m. Feb. 9, 2008
Hmmm! Let's see. Four families in one home means three families get
education for free as they pay no property taxes. They get services for free
too, so every time a police officer responds to a call, the service is free.
Trash and street services are also free to three. When they get cash under the
table, they pay no taxes. Many of their purchases are cash only and not from
stores -- no taxes. Few own real property, they just share the home with many
families and fill streets with cars. Very little is done to improve the rental
home, most often the house is trashed. They drain the health care system by
calling 911 for every illness and the ambulance dumps them in a hospital ER
where they are treated for free to get them out the door. Costs? You bet!
Drain on taxpayers' funds? You bet! Go to Mexico and see what you get for
free when you sneak over the border southbound. Betcha you don't get free
health care.
APM | 10:16 p.m. Feb. 9, 2008
If the people of Utah are really concerned about illegal immigration, then here
is a true resolution: stop hiring illegals, and stop supporting businesses that
do.
Spoc | 10:51 p.m. Feb. 9, 2008
A more insidious problem is the end objective of
�reconquista� and the cession of
Oregon, California, Nevada, Arizona, Utah, Colorado, New Mexico and Texas.
which, given enough anchor babies and amnesty, becomes a real possibility. The
colonization of the U.S. by Mexico is not restricted to those states either.
In their demonstrations they wrap themselves in red-white-and blue but only because they have been told to hide the red-white-and green of Aztlan until the day of MEChA. We know where their loyalties lie. But where are the loyalties of those who defer to the impotent Feds or urge delay while they study it some more.
Viva SB81!
In their demonstrations they wrap themselves in red-white-and blue but only because they have been told to hide the red-white-and green of Aztlan until the day of MEChA. We know where their loyalties lie. But where are the loyalties of those who defer to the impotent Feds or urge delay while they study it some more.
Viva SB81!
Ponch | 11:07 p.m. Feb. 9, 2008
It's about time.
And I hope the Utah economy completely falls apart in the process. Be careful what you wish for, you might get it.
But as usual, it's not about brown or white, ...it's about green$$$. More profit for business owners, which is why laws are never enforced.
And the bill will die (or get watered down) with a fight from the business lobby (construction, hotels, restaurants, lawn services, slaughter houses, farming, etc,etc.etc.) .
And I hope the Utah economy completely falls apart in the process. Be careful what you wish for, you might get it.
But as usual, it's not about brown or white, ...it's about green$$$. More profit for business owners, which is why laws are never enforced.
And the bill will die (or get watered down) with a fight from the business lobby (construction, hotels, restaurants, lawn services, slaughter houses, farming, etc,etc.etc.) .
justMe | 11:31 p.m. Feb. 9, 2008
A couple of comments about posts above:
1. Many illegal immigrants pay taxes and never claim what was overpaid. For info on this in Texas, and how the net worth of an illegal immigrant to the state gov't is $90K/yr in Texas, refer to a study Doug Wright talked about a couple of weeks ago (note, local, county gov'ts actually lose $$, but the state gains $$).
2. The Mormons actually emigrated to Mexico in 1947. The territory that is now Utah became part of the U.S. in 1948. I'm not sure this is what the person referring to Mormon history was talking about, but it's an interesting fact nonetheless.
1. Many illegal immigrants pay taxes and never claim what was overpaid. For info on this in Texas, and how the net worth of an illegal immigrant to the state gov't is $90K/yr in Texas, refer to a study Doug Wright talked about a couple of weeks ago (note, local, county gov'ts actually lose $$, but the state gains $$).
2. The Mormons actually emigrated to Mexico in 1947. The territory that is now Utah became part of the U.S. in 1948. I'm not sure this is what the person referring to Mormon history was talking about, but it's an interesting fact nonetheless.
Jo Schmo | 11:36 p.m. Feb. 9, 2008
I think we often create a lot of false dichotomies in politics, for the sake of
polarizing support. Why can't we secure our borders, punish law-breakers,
and be compassionate toward folks at the same time? I'm all for being
compassionate and creating solutions that help rather than hinder our economy
(let's look at things in terms of resources). At the same time,
there's a LOT more to security than building a fence. For example, the
reason it's SO EASY to obtain a false identity is because our national ID
card (i.e., the SS card) is a flimsy, blue piece of paper with no identifying
marks that we never have to renew. In any other country I've lived in (3
others), they issue a plastic, coded national ID card with a picture and thumb
print that must be updated every 5-10 years. You want people to stop stealing
identities? Get a real ID card (and this comes from someone that believes in
doing something other than sending all the illegals, 'back to where they
came from').
ejiditario | 11:44 p.m. Feb. 9, 2008
For those who think health care is so great in the U.S., here's a news
flash--illegals DON'T come here for health care. For them, it stinks. My
wife has translated for folks that are willing to pay cash and they're
treated like scum by the doctors and screwed out of their $$ time and again.
As far as free health care goes, yes, many Mexicans actually DO get free health care in Mexico. The country would rather take care of its poor than have an epidemic. I taught adult literacy in Mexico (and I refused to teach them English, even though many asked. The idea was to educate them so they could support their own country). The government regularly came out to the ejidos and, (1) provided free health care, and (2) trained a local to administer many simple drugs, including how to give shots.
As far as free health care goes, yes, many Mexicans actually DO get free health care in Mexico. The country would rather take care of its poor than have an epidemic. I taught adult literacy in Mexico (and I refused to teach them English, even though many asked. The idea was to educate them so they could support their own country). The government regularly came out to the ejidos and, (1) provided free health care, and (2) trained a local to administer many simple drugs, including how to give shots.
staypuffinpc | 12:06 a.m. Feb. 10, 2008
OK, I posted something completely tasteful here earlier and the editors
apparently thought it was too violent. So, here's a more euphemistic go at
it.
In 3rd grade we used to sing patriotic songs, such as, "this land is my land, this land is your land..." Only, as creative 3rd graders, we changed the tune to "this land is my land, this land's not your land..." and so on (if you don't know it, go ask a neighbor. They're sure to have sung it as a kid).
It sounds like most people are still singing the third grade version of this song.
In 3rd grade we used to sing patriotic songs, such as, "this land is my land, this land is your land..." Only, as creative 3rd graders, we changed the tune to "this land is my land, this land's not your land..." and so on (if you don't know it, go ask a neighbor. They're sure to have sung it as a kid).
It sounds like most people are still singing the third grade version of this song.
re mission to Mexico | 12:12 a.m. Feb. 10, 2008
Yes even Jesus taught us to OBEY LAWS!! all of them whether we liked them or
not.
themagyar | 12:16 a.m. Feb. 10, 2008
We can all agree that stories about the breakup of families due to
immigration-related actions are pretty sad. However, these steps (like
Oklahoma's laws) have to be taken, one at a time, to finally get to the
ultimate solution--getting Mexico to finally address the corruption and systemic
problems that make it such a hellhole to raise a family. MEXICO needs to step
up and ensure it becomes a place with enough opportunity to keep its citizens
there. We conveniently serve as their pressure release valve, and until that
stops, nothing will get better.
I look forward to the day when Mexicans don't have to look northward for opportunities to better their families--that they'll find those opportunities where they are. Ultimately we are doing illegals a favor by preventing them from coming or staying--eventually MEXICO will have to deal with them.
I look forward to the day when Mexicans don't have to look northward for opportunities to better their families--that they'll find those opportunities where they are. Ultimately we are doing illegals a favor by preventing them from coming or staying--eventually MEXICO will have to deal with them.
Janey | 12:21 a.m. Feb. 10, 2008
It is so hard for me to understand why people cannot see that the massive
uncontrolled illegal migrating to this country is anything but the beginning of
the end of America's sovereignty. Where does it stop? It won't until
we are completely inundated and our resources are sapped to the breaking point.
We are being ravaged while liberals are thinking that they are being kind and
noble to be "compassionate." What is their real motive? Is it to be
so anti-conservative that they are liberals first and Americans somewhere way
down the list? Why is it they get cataracts in their eyes at the mention of
"laws?"
NO MORE STUDY!! The truth is apparent. Let Utah lead the way. Please let the legislature bring back an element of trust for the people of Utah. Show us you can make a really good decision which gets the nods of the majority.
NO MORE STUDY!! The truth is apparent. Let Utah lead the way. Please let the legislature bring back an element of trust for the people of Utah. Show us you can make a really good decision which gets the nods of the majority.
Anonymous | 8:08 a.m. Feb. 10, 2008
To: Immigrants pay taxes | 10:07 p.m. Feb. 9, 2008
If illegal immigrants pay taxes as you say they do, then they have stolen someone�s identification. That is not a victimless crime. If they did not steal a SS# then they are being paid cash (no tax) "under the table". The people paying them may think they are legal immigrants because they have filled out an I9 form (a contract laborer is responsible for paying their own taxes) and no other identification is needed.
So either they have committed several felonies or they pay no major taxes. Tourists pay taxes on gas and food but they don�t send their children to school for free lunch.
If illegal immigrants pay taxes as you say they do, then they have stolen someone�s identification. That is not a victimless crime. If they did not steal a SS# then they are being paid cash (no tax) "under the table". The people paying them may think they are legal immigrants because they have filled out an I9 form (a contract laborer is responsible for paying their own taxes) and no other identification is needed.
So either they have committed several felonies or they pay no major taxes. Tourists pay taxes on gas and food but they don�t send their children to school for free lunch.
God's Children | 8:44 a.m. Feb. 10, 2008
�While one portion of the human race is judging and
condemning the other without mercy, the Great Parent of the universe looks upon
the whole of the human family with a fatherly care and paternal regard; He views
them as His offspring, and without any of those contracted feelings that
influence the children of men, causes �His sun to rise on
the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the
unjust.� Matthew 5:45.]� Joseph Smith,
quoted in Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, (current priesthood manual for
the church) at p. 29
Mission to El Salvador | 9:51 a.m. Feb. 10, 2008
Mission to Mexico is right on! Illegal is defined in no other way . All
illegal aliens must go home and return the honnorable way, otherwise they will
never be accepted in American society. Illegal members of the LDS church should
be the first to honnor the laws of the land and be the first to leave the land.
deport | 11:08 a.m. Feb. 10, 2008
Illegals are lowering wages, and stealing alot of the jobs Americans are willing
to do. I do Construction and my wages are lower now than what they were 8 years
ago. Illegals send most there money back to mexico or where ever.Billions of
dollars out of our economy,and they abuse our public services and Identity
theft.. American citizens deserve first crack at the jobs. Then if we need more
immigrant workers we have work visa's for them. Fine the employers and
build the fence. Illegals have got to follow our laws..
The Real Problem | 2:03 p.m. Feb. 10, 2008
Its about time the legislature did something, but it hasn't gone far
enough. We need to pass laws that make English the official state language and
help immigrants to assimilate. The best way to assimilate it to be immersed in
our culture. No state documents should be published in any language other than
English. All state business should be transacted in English. Anyone coming
here or needing services should be sponsored. Their sponsor should help them
feel out the documents until they can read, write and understand English.
We are doing a disservice to all the immigrants by coddling them and not immersing them into our culture. This country is NOT Mexico, Brazil, Russia, or China. If you come here expect to be Americans.
I don't know how many times I have walked thru the mall or down the street and hear people speaking another language. Unless you are a tourist, speak English. If you don't want to be American, GO HOME.
Don't send money back to your former country, spend it here and help build America. When your former country participates against the USA in the olympics, WorldCup or other events, root for the USA.
We are doing a disservice to all the immigrants by coddling them and not immersing them into our culture. This country is NOT Mexico, Brazil, Russia, or China. If you come here expect to be Americans.
I don't know how many times I have walked thru the mall or down the street and hear people speaking another language. Unless you are a tourist, speak English. If you don't want to be American, GO HOME.
Don't send money back to your former country, spend it here and help build America. When your former country participates against the USA in the olympics, WorldCup or other events, root for the USA.
Phil Hotchkiss | 2:37 p.m. Feb. 10, 2008
If you feel illegal immigrants are
criminals.
Put yourself in their shoes.
First It takes money to immigrate to the US
and most had none ( Its why they came here in the first place)
What would you do?
Second It can take years to be able to immigrate
to the US. and they are hungry now.
What would you do?
Before you deny one a right to live here think back as to how or why your
ancestors came to America.
I think the only ones who have a right to set the standards to immigration laws are the offspring of the original inhabitants, who were not selfish and wanting to keep the wealth to themselves
criminals.
Put yourself in their shoes.
First It takes money to immigrate to the US
and most had none ( Its why they came here in the first place)
What would you do?
Second It can take years to be able to immigrate
to the US. and they are hungry now.
What would you do?
Before you deny one a right to live here think back as to how or why your
ancestors came to America.
I think the only ones who have a right to set the standards to immigration laws are the offspring of the original inhabitants, who were not selfish and wanting to keep the wealth to themselves
Anonymous | 3:00 p.m. Feb. 10, 2008
To: Phil Hotchkiss,
It takes more money to pay someone to get an illegal across the border than it does to pay the cost for a visa. Your argument is flawed.
They don't do it the legal way because they don't qualify for citizenship. We won't take those convicted of crimes. We don't need a huge influx of unskilled workers and so we deny them citizenship. They could pay for one of the family to become a legal migrant worker but that would prevent the "anchor babies" from being born here. Without those children they cannot easily live off the taxpayers via welfare programs.
We do not want to keep the wealth to ourselves or we would not be sending money (we don't have... the national debt) to countries who request our financial help.
What would I do? What I did! I would enter the country and stay legally. You are advocating anarchy. We will be corrupt and bankrupt if we live in a lawless society.
It takes more money to pay someone to get an illegal across the border than it does to pay the cost for a visa. Your argument is flawed.
They don't do it the legal way because they don't qualify for citizenship. We won't take those convicted of crimes. We don't need a huge influx of unskilled workers and so we deny them citizenship. They could pay for one of the family to become a legal migrant worker but that would prevent the "anchor babies" from being born here. Without those children they cannot easily live off the taxpayers via welfare programs.
We do not want to keep the wealth to ourselves or we would not be sending money (we don't have... the national debt) to countries who request our financial help.
What would I do? What I did! I would enter the country and stay legally. You are advocating anarchy. We will be corrupt and bankrupt if we live in a lawless society.
Bobby | 9:03 p.m. Feb. 10, 2008
Lets be honest, if Americans gave a rats a-- about their nation non of this
would be happening and illegal aliens would be deported, because their here
illegally. Period. The greatest generation doesn't give a rats a--, the
yuppies their children don't give a rats a--, and the children of the
yuppies are brainwashed in shcool to believe they and their descendants who
built this nation are evil. So who could possibly believe that Americans will
get together and stop illegal immigration or any other devious B.S. the
Government is responsible for? You'd first have to have people who give a
cr-p about their nation, which is their inheritance. Does this make sense?
No More Mr Nice Guy! | 6:35 p.m. Feb. 12, 2008
Let's send them packing once and for all. NO MORE PRIVILEGES!
Jax | 7:36 p.m. Feb. 12, 2008
Those whining has best get their wallets out. Hate or no hate, to ignore is to
cost money.
Idiotic Absurd Thinking! | 8:14 p.m. Feb. 12, 2008
We didn't ask the illegal ALIENS to come here and break our laws. I
certainly DO NOT plan to pay for their free ride home. I have children who are
in the GREATEST NEED of clothing,& food and with the money that I work
extremely hard for. This is profoundly wrong to spend anymore money on these
law-breakers. The Illegals snuck over here without anything, and they can just
sneak right on back the same way they came!!!
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And just because the Mexican government is corrupt and living conditions are poor over there doesn't justify coming here illegally. Although the situation is sad over there, it only makes Mexico and the USA worse off by having Mexican families here illegally. We're fueling their fire.