Deseret News | Outcry over loss of BYU program

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Outcry over loss of BYU program

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GoodGuyGary | 8:14 a.m. Jan. 21, 2008

I think the money to support the school should be used wisely. If the is the way to go, so be it. You cannot say it is a wrong decision just because that is not what you want. Just be fair to students in other major, and those who contribute to the school.

MW | 8:32 a.m. Jan. 21, 2008

As a BSW student at BYU, I was involved in the re-accreditation of the School of Social Work only two years ago. The school received it's accreditation for at least eight years with very complimentary feedback - the dean may have good reasons for discontinuing the BSW program, but the reasons has given just don't seem legitimate when considering fact. It is not a problem of accreditation for social work.

Baseball Bats | 8:39 a.m. Jan. 21, 2008

The beating will continue until morale improves!...

I have a Bachelors in the social work field and the starting salary is around $25,000 per year. Agencies want someone with a degree but you'll be doing all of the grunt work. A Masters degree is needed to do any type of counseling and make a decent wage.

I see this issue as if BYU were a factory that makes baseball bats (hear me out). They make wooden bats and metal bats. Research indicates (in this scenario)that metal bats sell at a higher rate and customers are more satisfied with a metal bat. So, the factory decides to stop making wooden bats and focus all of their resources to making metal bats. It's a no brainer. It's a financial decision to help serve the customer in the long run and benefit the organization.

A BSW may be a marketable degree but overall the MSW program is much more beneficial to the graduate.
This is a wise decision by BYU.

Comments continue below

ron | 8:43 a.m. Jan. 21, 2008

hey, good guy gary...join the english class.

Church sales BYU | 9:06 a.m. Jan. 21, 2008

It seems the LDS church can't make any decision concerning BYU without protests and negative press. Whether it's raising football ticket prices, professor sensorship, or dropping an undergrad program, it all generates bad press. The LDS Church doesn't like bad press. Addtionally, with student wards and institute programs in almost every major University, the need for a church owned school is diminishing.

I am not claiming that BYU has more protests, or problems than other Universities. I am only stating that it is becoming more of a headache than the bretheren want to deal with, and that all of these protests are quickening the inevitable sale of BYU. The bretheren's time is much more needed in eccliastical matters.

GoodGuyGary | 9:17 a.m. Jan. 21, 2008

To ron:

At least I am saying it out of my heart, and not trying to be smart.

What gives? | 9:29 a.m. Jan. 21, 2008

I don't know why, but I had a social work degree from the north University, ( got my BS from the "Y", but was snubbed when accepted into a Psych field for a PHD prog at BYU. I was told in so many words and ways that my degree as a MSW didn't matter and I had nothing but opposition from within with male the cohorts. I don't know how BYU will work with students who have been educated outside their "net". The BYU BSW program s excellent and to be coveted for the preparation they give. They also train their MSW students very well. I can understand though why the focus needs to be on the MSW and DSW programs. The BSW's from BYU go five years, really it IS better to get a social science BS and then go for the MSW. Less time and work. The MSW is better. BSW's do the work but don't get the pay. It is a catch-22 either way. So, why not let other colleges to the base work and then work with the ones that really are focused to make a difference with the Masters.

Texas MSW student | 9:32 a.m. Jan. 21, 2008

Its unfortunate that BYU had to make this choice, but it is better for BYU to keep the MSW and lose the BSW.

I also think that its laughable the Magleby thinks other behavioral science students will pick up the slack on volunteer hours (480 hours X every BSW student). When I was an anthropology student at BYU, I don't think I had time for 48 hours of non-church related volunteer service during the full four years I was there. The reason I have done 800+ volunteer hours during the last year and a half is because my master's degree requires it (and I'm a much better person and professional for it, despite my sometimes negative attitude). Social service programs and school districts will suffer for a while, until UVSCs program picks up.

Incidentally, I didn't know that Alpine used social work students so heavily. Maybe that's why they're one of the best school districts in the country...

This is a political game | 11:17 a.m. Jan. 21, 2008

Some of you readers don't fully know about the field of social work and all that they do for communities - that's okay, I would suggest that you don't come off sounding like you're an expert with the profession. Whether you fully understand social work or not, the bottom line is, BYU made a decision and did it in a way that was underhanded. BYU can choose to close down any program it wants - sure it has that right. But for a school such as BYU who touts high morals, and demands them of their students through the Honor Code, to be deceitful to the students, faculty, and community leaders is too bad and a disgrace to the university. If even half of the comments above are true, including those quoted in the article, then BYU has some serious apologies to make. I'm particularly appauled that Dean Magleby would tell students and the media that the community leaders he met with are in support of this decision, when they told him the opposite. Dean Magleby should be releaved of his job.

Rex | 11:32 a.m. Jan. 21, 2008

Thanks to the previous comment - political game. I agree that the real problems come down to this: social work is a growing and much needed profession. Yes you can get an MSW and do more with it than the BSW that's true. There are people who only want the BSW degree, and there is tremendous need for that in many positions and settings. BYU doing away with the BSW is a mistake. The other bottom line point: I agree that BYU is making a decision which they have the right to do, but they are doing it dishonestly. Dean Magelby tells the media he has done extensive research with community leaders, students, faculty, etc. Yet, did everyone read about the reports from the students? They worked hard on their own to research among those entities to identify who had indeed been contacted by BYU. They could not find one person among students, faculty, alumni, agency personnel, nor the School's own Advisory Board. That appauls me the Dean would not even use their own Advisory Board for consultation. Where is the upper leadership of BYU in all of this? BYU should handle this better and more honestly.

Its NOT complaining | 12:13 p.m. Jan. 21, 2008

I earned my BSW at another university, but am still amazed at how BYU and the Dean have gone about this. I have visited with students, faculty and community agency leaders about this. I have read the deans letter to the students. Lots of mis-information. This is a wrong decision! And as far as I am concerned, the students here are not complainers, they are standing up for something they view as an injustice, not just for them, but for society as a whole. If you view something as an injustice, then stand up, don't give up.
FYI:, Just so you know ctr, Stake Presidents and Bishops are NOT social workers, infact, they rely heavily on social workers expertise.

Yeah for the students | 1:15 p.m. Jan. 21, 2008

Have any of you (especially the ones trying to poke jabs at the students)wondered why the students are complaining?? They are already admitted into the BSW program - what have they to complain about?? THEY ARE DOING IT BECAUSE THEY NOW IT IS AN INJUSTICE! They personally won't be affected, but they know future students will be, and they know how it will affect all communities where graduates of the program would have gone. What an unselfish and note-worthy and noble effort these passionate students are demonstrating. If the rest of us could demonstrate such unselfish and passionate energy for causes we believed in for the good of communities - our society would be all the better. I salute you BYU social work students!!

This is good | 4:38 p.m. Jan. 21, 2008

I actually think this is all good. Now well qualified students from other majors have a FAIR chance at getting into the MSW program. This was not the case before. Unless you had 2 years of kissing-up under your belt you had very little chance of getting in. TRUE STORY. I am surprised more people have not mentioned how common this is becoming at other institutions. The way of this field is to switch focus to Masters programs. This move keeps BYU up with cutting edge Universities in this field. Fact! However, it is not a popular decision. Especially among social workers who by n

All things considered... | 4:45 p.m. Jan. 21, 2008

The average starting salary for someone with a BSW is 23k a year. You can make that much by working at 7-11. And, you will get just as much opportunity to counsel. Trust me, BYU is doing something valuable here by cutting this program. A University is suppose to help people. This helps!

Potential Professor | 5:52 p.m. Jan. 21, 2008

I had anticiapted teaching at BYU after my military career. As a BYU social work bachelor and master's program alumn, and now with my PhD in social work from the University of Utah, i was looking forward to retiring from the military and giving back to the school that had given me so much. I was shocked when I read that the Dr. Magleby had projected that the potential pool of professors in the out years was limited. How does he know this? He certainly doesn't know me and my goals four and a half years from now...the decision smells of inadequate analysis, insufficient communication with the major stakeholders, and inappropriate consideration regarding the needs of the community at large.

Dr. Magleby, please reconsider.

boo hoo! | 6:10 p.m. Jan. 21, 2008

I know three individuals with BSW degrees from the Y. After two years of eating Ramen Noddles, all three left the profession for "Blue Collar" Jobs.

Please, why would anybody choose a profession that pays less than flipping burgers? The University isn't in business to train government workers. Maybe less government would be a better solution?

Anonymous | 9:09 p.m. Jan. 21, 2008

David Magleby is the devil himself.

Brad | 10:07 p.m. Jan. 21, 2008

Why don't these students sustain their leaders... just as they said they would in their bishop's interview.

Anonymous | 11:47 p.m. Jan. 21, 2008

All Things Considered--That (23,000) is also just about the starting salary for a teacher here in Utah--so what does that tell us about how much we value our educators?

Marc Gilchrist - BYU MSW | 7:40 a.m. Jan. 22, 2008

So I guess I am a whiner! Itï¿½s the squeaky wheel that gets the grease! When I said ï¿½we will fight this foreverï¿½ I meant fight the lack of respect. Some say ï¿½you donï¿½t deserve to be listened toï¿½, to that I say hundreds of social causes had people say the same thing. I have also heard that I am wrong because I am questioning leadership, BYU and the church. I am simply doing what they teach us in schoolï¿½ think critically.

Changes needed to be made but could these changes have happened without the removal of the BSW? I think it is respectful to have honest answers and justification for the changes to our school of social work. If it happened in this manner could it not happen to any program?

I hope that we can influence future policy that such a program removal will not happen again. Allow input for student and local leaders before changes, not after. If we are prepared and informed then we can help the school, instead we are left on the outside, confused and upset. BYU has chosen not to respond and though they have ï¿½little patienceï¿½ï¿½ we have lots!

Grandma C. | 8:56 a.m. Jan. 22, 2008

Many years ago my daughter was a "family sciences" major at BYU, considering teaching in public schools. At the same time, I was a teacher in the midwest. My colleagues were losing their jobs as the public schools, one by one, eliminated programs for family and consumer education. I was surprised professors at BYU were encouraging my daughter to enter a dying market (at least, outside of Utah).
In many states a person with a BSW will not be licensed for a job paying much above minimum wage. The MSW is required for a professional position.
Brigham Young University is administed by highly qualified persons who must make difficult decisions about university offerings based on many factors. I do not understand how those with no credentials in university administration or knowledge of potential job opportunitites nationally think they are qualified to criticize. It appears self-centeredness prevails.

The Real Truth | 9:33 a.m. Jan. 22, 2008

The community is basically crying about this not because the school is closing the program which in and of itself is bad enough but think of all the businesses who now can no longer take advantage of a college student and work him for nothing. Typical Utah business practice, take advantage and always look to get something for nothing. If the community who utilize these individuals would have to pay for the services such as a donation of hour for hour comparable pay to the University Program then the program might not suffer from inability to pay a decent wage to get a professor or two, but then again typical business in Utah is to take advantage of the working class and squeeze every cheap nickle they can out of them. The business community needs to be ashamed of themselves or at least have enough brains to not complain about loosing FREE labor in the media. Unfortunatly its the middle class who have to suffer because some low life business owner or manager does not have enough morals to pay for the services he is receiving. WAY TO GO UTAH BUSINESS another success story.

Sustain Leaders? | 11:31 a.m. Jan. 22, 2008

Since when did a political science dean/professor become a priesthood leader? To even suggest that BYU students should sustain academic professors and their decisions as though they were their own priesthood leader is irresponsible and flat out wrong. Let's be grateful that BYU students are smart enough to question authority and to have a healthy distrust of university politics. This generation wasn't held in reserve to follow academics blindly.

Tab L. Uno, LCSW | 8:30 p.m. Jan. 22, 2008

My thanks goes out to all those who took the time to post a message on this article to make it the ninth most popular article on the Deseret News. I would hope that would mean something to somebody in charge. God, perhaps?!

Odd | 9:47 p.m. Jan. 22, 2008

Doesn't it just seem odd that a school that promotes itself as being society oriented and caring would take away one of the majors that help promote families and societies?
As a BYU grad, I'm appalled at the short-sighted and norrow-minded decision that has been made to discontinue this major.

One more | 10:35 p.m. Jan. 22, 2008

I'm confused by the argument that the degree should be done away with since its graduates do not earn very much money. Should all of us college students change our major to Business or Pre-Med so we can make the big bucks? There's more to life than money folks, like helping others . . .

Also, the Bureau of Labor reports that 3 out of 10 social workers are employed by government, so the argument that social work programs are primarily feeders for government jobs is fallacious (always wanted to use that word).

smokeboater | 12:47 a.m. Jan. 23, 2008

Back in the 1960' I had it all planned out. Finish my time in the navy. Go to BYU & get a degree in genealogy (it hadn't become Family History yet). Specialize in English & Scandinavian research. Take trips to the "old country" & get paid for it. What a deal! Then, when I had about one year left, BYU cancelled the progam. What nerve. It messed up my plans. So, I wrote about equipment on submarines - how to make changes & run tests, etc. Commonly known as a tech writer. But, studied genealogy anyway. Only got to England when we pulled in & saw Norway through a periscope, but never landed to check out the Vikings. Kept after the genealogy. Retired & wife & I served a Family History mission. Too short, but great & did fulfill one goal: serving a mission together! Immediate problem: the argument for keeping the BSW is very sound & perhaps cooler minds will prevail & it will stay. Lets hope.

I'm appauled | 5:35 p.m. Jan. 24, 2008

Some of you obviously don't know what the social work profession is about. Obvsiously, some of you are more interested in making money, and think everyone else should be solely interested in making a lot of money. There are some people - actually, quite a few around the U.S. and throughout the world, who are very much interested and passionate in helping people. I would call them social workers, and would also throw school teachers in that same mix. Leave them alone. If they want to help others, and they are okay with not making a lot of money - we should salute them. THERE IS GREAT NEED FOR SOCIAL WORKERS IN OUR SOCIETY!! Will it take a community catastrophe like a natural disaster, or a public shooting for people to realize what would happen if there were no social workers to do their job? BYU is making a serious mistake. After reading all the comments above, and after doing my own research, it is evident BYU has gone about this in a dishonest manner. Shame on BYU. BYU has the right to make whatever decision it wants to, but it shouldn't be deceitful to it's own students.

Wrong Decision | 5:37 p.m. Jan. 24, 2008

Dean David Magelby of the College of Family, Home, and Social Sciences reported to students and the media that extensive research has been done involving students, alumni, and community agencies and that this study determined it was best to do away with the program since there is no license on the bachelor level, nor does the Church or LDS Family Services hire BSWs. This was quickly corrected after many students and community members (including representatives from LDS FS) reported that both of these points are inaccurate. Social Work has the only license (on the bachelor level) in all of the social sciences, and LDSFS has hired 50 BSW graduates in the past four years (2004-2007), more in the past 2 years than ever before, since they now employ BSWs to work as adoption workers.

No Advisory Board | 5:38 p.m. Jan. 24, 2008

BYU students took it upon themselves to survey students, alumni, and community agency leaders (over 80 community individuals) to determine who had been included in the Deanï¿½s decision-making process and they could not find one from any of these entities, who had been consulted. No one from the Social Work Advisory Board was consulted or involved in any way (the current Advisory Board includes church and community leaders in Salt Lake and Utah counties). The Advisory Board has made multiple attempts to contact President Samuelson and Vice-President John Tanner. Their offices have responded stating they are not responding to anyone about this matter but suggest individuals take their concerns to Dean Magleby. He has not responded to anyone, until just recently, when he offered to visit with the current Alumni President.

my own research | 5:39 p.m. Jan. 24, 2008

I have done my own research and found out from BYU staff and faculty of other departments within the college that the full-time social work faculty have been told if they converse with people openly about their concerns regarding this decision, they will be disciplined, and the Masterï¿½s program may be discontinued as well. The social work and other students have organized themselves and have done some demonstrations off BYU campus. When they requested, they were told they could have an on-campus demonstration, but that they would need a faculty advisor, but the faculty were told the current BSW Coordinator was the only one who could advise, knowing he was on sabbatical over seas. They were not to offer to take his place, or advise the students in any way.

Anonymous | 5:40 p.m. Jan. 24, 2008

The Question and Answer Session
Dean Magleby held a Question and Answer session with the students, which was also attended by community representatives, including myself. Students reported to the media their frustration that their questions (which were provided to the Dean in writing, in advance) were not directly answered during this session. (A copy of the transcript of this session is enclosed). Several students expressed concern that BYU is doing away with a very marketable and important degree, in the hope that such action will enable the School to produce better PhD applicants. They continued, they only want to obtain a bachelor degree so they can be a homemaker and mother (and perhaps have a licensed degree in case of emergency), rather than pursuing a higher degree.

Anonymous | 5:41 p.m. Jan. 24, 2008

The Question and Answer Session II
After the decision to discontinue the BSW Program and prior to this Question and Answer session, several community agency administrators met with the Dean to communicate their disagreement with this decision to close down the program, and to report how it will greatly negatively impact many communities. Following that meeting, in the Question and Answer session, the Dean reported he had met with agency leaders and they are in support of this decision. When word got back to these leaders that they had been misrepresented, they of course were concerned and upset and they have made multiple attempts to meet with President Samuelson or John Tanner and so far have been turned away. So, currently, there is not only a great concern out in the community that BYU is making the wrong decision, but that BYU is not doing it in an honest and forthright manner.

Jennie | 5:44 p.m. Jan. 24, 2008

I read the earlier comment about the agency administrator who went to talk, along with 5 other agency reps. with Dean Magelby, to tell him of that they don't agree with BYU's decision. Then Dean Magelby told the students an hour later these agency reps. support BYU's decision. That is very sad. Don't you think BYU top administration should be concerned by this?

What's up with BYU | 5:49 p.m. Jan. 24, 2008

I have a question about BYU? If they are truly making the right choice and going about it correctly, what have they to hide? Instead, they are being secret. Something smells fishy to me. I took it upon myself and phoned as a concerned citizen President Samuelson and asked if he would speak about the social work issue. The response from the secretary was that he is not speaking with anyone about it. I got the same response from the Vice-President John Tanner. I've heard several people make comments they couldn't reach these people so I decided to try it myself for fun. And, it's true. They referred me back to the Dean Magelby - the very person who made the decision. Wow, there are no checks and balances with BYU. I guess a Dean can do whatever he wants - as irrational as it may be, and there are no checks and balances. That's a SCARY system if you ask me.

Response to Jennie | 5:54 p.m. Jan. 24, 2008

Jennie, thanks for commenting on that concern. I am a BYU student, and I was there at the Question and Answer session Dean Magleby held, and I heard him tell all several hundred of us there, including the media, that the community agencies were supportive of this decision. I happen to be employed at one of those agencies, and I have spoken with the administrator who is upset BYU administration has not been truthful and is saying the complete opposite of what he really told the Dean. Wow, this is sad commentary about BYU. BYU should be more honest and responsible than this. The Dean should be punished for lying to the media and hundreds of students.

Value of Social Workers | 6:00 p.m. Jan. 24, 2008

I work in a community agency where social work interns and other interns from BYU work. I've been here for over 20 years. There is no comparison to the quality of social work bachelor students, compared to other social science interns. The social work students are so well prepared and their skill level is superior - even often superior to Master's level students of other schools. BYU bachelor social workers are amazingly valuable as an intern, and afterwards when they graduate. For the Dean Magelby to say students will not be hurt, in fact, may even be given an advantage to get a bachelor degree in another area - for work out in the field, is GRAVELY wrong. Maybe in the other social sciences, you can learn some great things, but social work is the application of skills to help people. Rather than just study about human beings or society, social workers are trained to actually do the direct help. They are tremendously valuable and important and well trained. It's hard to believe BYU doesn't understand this, and is telling students they'll be better prepared in other areas. I know the difference, I work with them everyday.

A sociologists opinion | 6:11 p.m. Jan. 24, 2008

I have worked for many years as a sociologist. I also work closely with family science professionals. There is a purpose and need for all of the areas in the social sciences. On the bachelor level, there is only one that is an applied profession, and that is social work. [not even psychology is an applied emphasis on the bachelor level] So, I don't understand why BYU Dean Magelby says that students who want to work with people and work clinically in agencies will be better suited to get a degree in another area. It's true students of other areas can qualify to apply for a Masters in Social Work, but if they want to work at the bachelor level, they will learn how to intervene with people through social work. So, Dean Magelby let's start comparing apples to apples. There's a completely difference purpose for sociology, family science, and psychology, than there is for social work.

The College | 6:16 p.m. Jan. 24, 2008

I used to work in a department in the BYU College of Family Home and Social Sciences - the same college of social work, that Dean Magelby oversees. There experience was terrible, because the Dean is a micro-manager. Not even our department chair had a say in what went on in our department. Rather, the Dean was a dictator who gave the orders about everything. It doesn't feel good to not be trused and treated like a professional. I left, and am now in another college, and it is a world of difference. Maybe what we're really dealing with here is a Dean who has lots of unchecked power, and who's a micro-manager.

My Wife | 6:21 p.m. Jan. 24, 2008

My wife works in the social work field. She said she asked the CEO of her community agency about what he has tried to do with BYU since Dean Magelby reported he was in support of BYU's decision to drop the BSW program. He said he has gathered in several meetings with the other 4 agency administrators to make dozens of phone calls and to write several letters to BYU top administration, including President Samuelson and Vice President John Tanner. Their offices have not responded, and they have only heard from the associate Dean who has invited them in to discuss how to strengthen the social work masters program. BYU doesn't want to hear from angry community leaders who were lied about and gravely mis-represented. BYU - if you are being honest about everything, you should be very happy to meet with community administrators.

National Reputation | 6:25 p.m. Jan. 24, 2008

One thing I don't get, is that BYU says one reason for closing the BSW program down is to strengthen the Master's program. I have attended several national and international conferences for the social sciences, and many people have approached me, and upon learning I am from Provo, Utah, they have commented that that is the location of BYU, which has one of the finest clinical Master's of Social Work programs anywhere. This has happened to me several times. If it has that kind of reputation, why does BYU think it needs re-strengthening. There must be some other reasons - probably political reasons, of why they are REALLY closing it down.

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Volunteers Michael King, center, and Christina Mangum help director Joy O'Banion, left, director of the Family Support and Treatment Center of Orem, box up a donation of stuffed animals.