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Outcry over loss of BYU program
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Tab L. Uno, LCSW | 12:33 a.m. Jan. 20, 2008
When Utah State and Southern Utah State can each offer a Bachelor's Social
Work Programs, in addition to the Uiversity of Utah and to have Utah Valley
State College considering to develop a Bachelor program it really puts a big
question mark on David Magleby's argument that they can't get
qualified staff to maintain its own Bachelor's program. When BYU with its
national ranking as a private university can't handle a Bachelors program
in social work, its really says something about the entire university. Perhaps
as a private school, it doesn't need to care about the community that
surrounds it, perhaps its focus is on some other spiritual plane, but
unfortunately on this issue it doesn't seem concerned about earthly matters
even though spirituality and social work have been gaining alot of attention
lately. I guess BYU hasn't gotten the word. The might do well then to
listen to the University of Utah when it comes to spirituality and social work.
Jeff | 12:37 a.m. Jan. 20, 2008
I think this is the same guy who eliminated the Home Economics Department a few
years ago. My wife was a Home Economics Education major (graduated before the
cancellation of the program), and has heard horror stories about how students
and faculty in the Home Ec Department were treated.
When BYU has solicited for donations, we have donated to the General Fund, and to the College of Engineering (my college), but we refuse to donate to the college of Family, Home and Social Sciences (they might as well remove the "Family" and "Home").
What is the mission of BYU anyway? It seems to me like it has become "be like everyone else".
When BYU has solicited for donations, we have donated to the General Fund, and to the College of Engineering (my college), but we refuse to donate to the college of Family, Home and Social Sciences (they might as well remove the "Family" and "Home").
What is the mission of BYU anyway? It seems to me like it has become "be like everyone else".
Tom Plumer | 4:57 a.m. Jan. 20, 2008
I had a son in that program. It was a disgrace to the university.
Comments continue below
Accreditation | 5:18 a.m. Jan. 20, 2008
BYU, like any university, needs to weigh costs v. programs. You may not be
aware of it, but BYU is one of the cheapest Universities in the U.S. while
maintaining an excellent reputation, even if a Mormon University. Nope, we are
not mormon. Next year, we will be paying 18,OOO dollars per year for our
daughter's education here in Georgia.
Yes, it is sad to be losing one undergraduate degree program, but better that then losing accreditation in the entire department which it clearly is at risk. There are other universities that do still offer the program for undergraduates or you may chose plan "b" at BYU, which consists of a different degree and 2,000 hours of supervised internship. Add to that it seems that UVSC may well be able to financially pick up the slack and add a social work degree and the point becomes moot because one would only need to travel 10 minutes to a different university.
Again, it all comes down to $ and clearly the social work program doesn't produce benefactors/alumni that can contribute those dollars to keep the program going.
Yes, it is sad to be losing one undergraduate degree program, but better that then losing accreditation in the entire department which it clearly is at risk. There are other universities that do still offer the program for undergraduates or you may chose plan "b" at BYU, which consists of a different degree and 2,000 hours of supervised internship. Add to that it seems that UVSC may well be able to financially pick up the slack and add a social work degree and the point becomes moot because one would only need to travel 10 minutes to a different university.
Again, it all comes down to $ and clearly the social work program doesn't produce benefactors/alumni that can contribute those dollars to keep the program going.
Why thi is an outrage!!! | 6:25 a.m. Jan. 20, 2008
I thought that these guys were Perfect..everything the do is Perfect, everyone
they know is Perfect , Perfect..whip-ddee-do, getrdone, stuff. I quess the world
is not their campus anymore just for some and if Romney gets in..expect more.
Whatever | 7:36 a.m. Jan. 20, 2008
'"This is not a done deal. We will fight this forever," said Marc
Gilchrist'
Yes, it is. No, you won't. Much like the Gold's protesters, Mark suffers from a lack of understanding of reality.
Yes, it is. No, you won't. Much like the Gold's protesters, Mark suffers from a lack of understanding of reality.
Meaningless protest | 8:38 a.m. Jan. 20, 2008
...or those students could just earn their Master's degree at ANOTHER
university.
Me | 8:42 a.m. Jan. 20, 2008
One problem of making a college a university is the emphasis on graduate
programs at the expense of the undergrad programs. We can see that BYU is no
different than other universities in this regard.
RockOn | 8:46 a.m. Jan. 20, 2008
What a waste of ink or electrons. BSW canceled. Go somewhere else. Get a life.
You're going to "fight this forever." No wonder you're in
the field... you need help.
BYU or any university can add or subtract programs to their hearts content. That's what they do. To whine about it is just silly.
BYU or any university can add or subtract programs to their hearts content. That's what they do. To whine about it is just silly.
ron | 9:02 a.m. Jan. 20, 2008
The last comment: "totally out of the blue" is kind of funny if you
think about it...
Silly | 9:36 a.m. Jan. 20, 2008
No, I'm not talking about the elimination of this major at BYU, I'm
referring to the reaction of all these "protesters" and the two people
that have already left comments. Do you not realize that some of the best
universities in the nation have eliminated this same program because it just
doesn't make sense anymore? You can get a bachelor's in another degree
and then get your masters. Then you are actually marketable. Who cares if the
other universities have these programs or if UVU is thinking about adding it.
They are behind the times. You people are silly and way too quick to condemn
your alma mater.
Anonymous | 10:32 a.m. Jan. 20, 2008
First of all, why does BYU owe anyone "advance notice" except for the
students themselves. They don't owe public agencies anything. I agree
with Silly, who is correct that it's possible -- and I would add
preferrable -- to get a BS in something else and then get an MS.
And home economics is not an academic program.
I, for one, am heartened and encouraged by BYU's recent actions.
And home economics is not an academic program.
I, for one, am heartened and encouraged by BYU's recent actions.
BYU BSW 01 | 10:42 a.m. Jan. 20, 2008
I think one of the big problems of not having a BSW program at BYU is that
students will no longer qualify for advanced standing MSW programs after
graduation. If you only have to pay for one year of grad school, You can go to
some of the better schools out there and not have to worry about BYU's MSW
wich is too competative for what it has to offer and Utahs MSW program which is
good but not excellent.
But, I think The BYU MSW programs function is to supply LDS Social Services and administrators may see that as a greater need for the Church as a whole
But, I think The BYU MSW programs function is to supply LDS Social Services and administrators may see that as a greater need for the Church as a whole
Anonymous | 10:45 a.m. Jan. 20, 2008
***"When Utah State and Southern Utah State can each offer a
Bachelor's Social Work Programs...it really puts a big question mark on
David Magleby's argument that they can't get qualified staff to
maintain its own Bachelor's program."*** - Tab Uno
My (admittedly vague) understanding of social work is that it is one of the more leftish professions. If that's true, would that make it tougher for a more conservative school like BYU to attract qualified professors?
And what is the purpose of a social work major, exactly? Again, not expressing a view - just asking.
My (admittedly vague) understanding of social work is that it is one of the more leftish professions. If that's true, would that make it tougher for a more conservative school like BYU to attract qualified professors?
And what is the purpose of a social work major, exactly? Again, not expressing a view - just asking.
Getoverit | 11:27 a.m. Jan. 20, 2008
BYU can do what it wants and will do what it wants. I love the points made
already to this. If you don't like it go some where else. If its so
important to you then go some where else. If you can't deal with not
haveing free employees to do your work maybe you need to re-evaluate the
situation.
soon to be MSW | 11:45 a.m. Jan. 20, 2008
I respectfully disagree with Tab Uno about the U merging spirituality and social
work. I am a student in their social work grad program. Outside of one
professor, Dr. Dave Derozotes, one never hears about spiritulaity here.
Deal with it... | 12:28 p.m. Jan. 20, 2008
Personally, I'm glad they cancelled the program. While BYU could do more
to reach out to the community, one could say that about every other university
in this state. Frankly, I think BYU students perform more service than most
university students do. It's not the university's responsibility to
staff institutions with free labor.
BYU felt that it was in the best interest of the institution. Universities make simililar decisions on a daily basis, deal with it.
BYU felt that it was in the best interest of the institution. Universities make simililar decisions on a daily basis, deal with it.
Yawn! | 1:22 p.m. Jan. 20, 2008
Okay so they get rid of the BSw and want you to go straight for the Masters. The
reason because too many people get the Bachelor's Degree and then go else
where for their MSW. We have a lot of people who come to the U of New Hampshire
to get their MSW/Family Counseling after obtaining the BSW at BYU. It cost more
to go to UNH but they do get the experience and the job. BYU is just out the
money and the community loses its free advice.
Kyle | 1:24 p.m. Jan. 20, 2008
It is clear there are many comments here by people who haven't done their
homework, and they are talking about a profession/degree they know little about.
I am from another state, and it took a community crisis for all of us to open
our eyes to see the many valuable things that come from Social Work - including
the bachelor level license. Social Work is listed on all of the most needed
career lists for the future. UVSC knows the value of the degree and has tried
for years to get an accredited program. The bottom line with BYU is we have a
Dean over the college who is making a political and a money decision. He has
reported to the students he consulted heavily with community agencies, faculty,
alumni, and students, yet the students' research could not identify anyone
who had been consulted. Yes, they can make a decision on their own if they want
to, but when they say they have consulted with many, and they have not, that is
not being honest BYU.
Dave | 1:27 p.m. Jan. 20, 2008
I work for a community agency (I have changed my name)and I along with 5 other
agency heads told Dean Magelby that we are against this decision. The hour
after our meeting, he told the students and the media that he had just met with
community heads and that we are in favor and supportive of this decision. We
have made multiple attempts to contact BYU administration to tell them how
displeased we are with the fact we were falsely represented but top
administration will not have an audience with anyone. I know,, I have tried
dozens of times. Why can't BYU at least be honest about all this?
Anonymous | 1:48 p.m. Jan. 20, 2008
***My (admittedly vague) understanding of social work is that it is one of the
more leftish professions. If that's true, would that make it tougher for a
more conservative school like BYU to attract qualified professors?***
Anonymous
And what is the purpose of a social work major, exactly? Again, not expressing a view - just asking.
***I respectfully disagree with Tab Uno about the U merging spirituality and social work. I am a student in their social work grad program. Outside of one professor, Dr. Dave Derozotes, one never hears about spiritulaity here.*** soon to be MSW
The U of U Graduate School of Social Work promotes spirituality as the fourth force of social work. However, the amount of spiritual training is admittedly limited. Thus perhaps a BYU BSW program is ESSENTIAL if our state wishes to provide qualified clinical social workers in state where religion has such deep roots. What could BYU be thinking? Or perhaps one man?
And what is the purpose of a social work major, exactly? Again, not expressing a view - just asking.
***I respectfully disagree with Tab Uno about the U merging spirituality and social work. I am a student in their social work grad program. Outside of one professor, Dr. Dave Derozotes, one never hears about spiritulaity here.*** soon to be MSW
The U of U Graduate School of Social Work promotes spirituality as the fourth force of social work. However, the amount of spiritual training is admittedly limited. Thus perhaps a BYU BSW program is ESSENTIAL if our state wishes to provide qualified clinical social workers in state where religion has such deep roots. What could BYU be thinking? Or perhaps one man?
Tab L. Uno, LCSW | 2:05 p.m. Jan. 20, 2008
The comment about spirituality and social work is a legitmate concern here. If
BYU doesn't retain its BSW program, it is severely limiting its own pool of
spiritual MSW applicants who have been trained in spirituality and LDS doctrine.
But for those on the front lines, the need for clinical social workers with a
solid background in LDS doctrine remains great. Where will BYU's truly
dedicated MSW faculty come from while the availability of truly inspired social
work undergraduate students are pushed aside for other programs? While I'm
no LDS Mormon, that doesn't mean the LDS client don't deserve the best
counseling services possible. There is a great need for mental health
services among the LDS population but if the Church believes that such matters
can be solely handled by a belief and devotion in God, then so be it.
Melissa | 2:18 p.m. Jan. 20, 2008
Thank you Tab Uno for your comments. You seem to provide some very level-headed
and objective information. I would hope BYU would pay attention to the points
you are making. I think BYU is being very closed minded about this, and not
looking at the bigger picture. Where is the LDS Church in all of this? I know
that LDS Family Services is not happy about this, since they employ more BSWs
than ever - I have a family member who is one of them, and they will continue to
need more of them.
Shawna | 2:19 p.m. Jan. 20, 2008
I am a student at the U of U who has tried for 2 years to get into a social work
program at the U. I have studied a lot about the social work profession. These
are individuals who don't get paid a lot, and they work in sometimes very
tough settings with not a lot of benefits. They take care of our elderly, our
disabled, our mentally ill. They've gotten a bad rap sometimes in the media
as being protrayed as people who take kids out of homes, when in reality that
rarely happens, and that is only under a judge's orders. Most social
workers have nothing to do with being remotely involved with removing kids from
homes. My own family is saved and still together because of several social
workers who acted as our family's payee when my dad was disabled. Another
social worker was our therapist in family counseling. I've also researched
quite a few universities with social work degrees. Most of those I have found
are trying to increase their social work programs, rather than close them,
because of the increasing need there is and will be for them. BYU WHAT ARE YOU
THINKING???????
Bruce J. | 2:35 p.m. Jan. 20, 2008
Maybe there are more qualified people to teach social work than Madgley or
"the univeristy know.
I have an MSSW and a Ph.D. in anthropology,which is accepted by CSWE to teach. I sure would be willing to help keep the bachelors progam going if they would hire me.
I have an MSSW and a Ph.D. in anthropology,which is accepted by CSWE to teach. I sure would be willing to help keep the bachelors progam going if they would hire me.
BYU Grad | 2:36 p.m. Jan. 20, 2008
Of course there are many more than three students in grad programs in the
country who are preparing to teach social work, but remember that BYU
essentially hires only LDS faculty. When you take that into consideration, the
pool of eligible potential hires gets a lot smaller. To me, it seems conceivable
that there won't be enough professors to sustain both programs at the
current enrollment levels.
Neil | 2:41 p.m. Jan. 20, 2008
Social work is a valuable profession. Social workers can counsel, work for
adoption agencies, and corrections and law enforcement. I worked in
probation/parole. Many of my co-workers had social work degrees. I think
BYU's decision to eliminate such a valuable profession is misguided.
Marcia | 2:48 p.m. Jan. 20, 2008
Whether you understand the value of social work or not, there is something that
to me is evident that BYU is making a decision that is purely political and
sneaky - in other words, they are not being completely honest to their students
or faculty about the real reasons. The MSW program at BYU is touted as one of
the finest programs in the country. I have heard this multiple times from social
work leaders throughout the world. Dean Magleby says he is shutting down the BSW
program to build up the Master's program. When it is already extremely
great and has such an outstanding reputation, what needs fixing? The Dean also
says that there are no future applicants for faculty. There has only been one
opening in the past 7 years! How does he know without out posting a job opening.
I have a relative who would do anything to work for BYU, yet he keeps getting
turned down, with the answer he's not qualified. BYU's Dean
Magleby's reasons, just don't hold up!!
BYU not accurate | 2:54 p.m. Jan. 20, 2008
Dean Magleby's first announcement to the students and media about the
reason why the school was being closed down was: there is no license that comes
from the BSW degree, and that the LDS Church does not hire BSWs. Well, the
social work bachelor level degree is the ONLY degree on the bachelor level in
all of social sciences!! Funny isn't that the Dean said he did extensive
research into this - yet he didn't even know this one simple and important
truth. Of course he quickly corrected himself 2 weeks later. I phoned up LDS
Family Services, and they said they have hired more BSWs in the past 3 years
than they have in their existence, since they now use them as their adoption
workers. LDS Humanitarian and Welfare agencies also use social workers
world-wide, and they volunteer and do internships globally. BYU's Dean
Magleby keeps stating how he has done a lot of talking with many people, yet he
didn't know these basic facts.
BYU vs. LDS Church | 2:58 p.m. Jan. 20, 2008
I know that BYU doesn't want to get embarrassed over the fact they have
allowed a Dean to have a lot of power and make decisions, even though they might
not be the right ones. However, where is the LDS Church in all this?
Wouldn't they want their members served by social workers with LDS values
and principles? And who better to do that than BYU - a church owned school.
The Value of Social Work | 3:06 p.m. Jan. 20, 2008
I am greatly concerned about BYU�s decision to drop the
bachelor of social work program, as well as the manner in which it has been
done. The social work bachelor degree is very marketable, by far the most
marketable bachelor degree in the social sciences, and the only one that has a
license. The education it offers is unique, as it trains individuals to serve
in clinical settings and to support more advanced clinicians in those systems.
Other majors in the social sciences focus on the study of the individual,
family, or community, while social work, as the applied profession, focuses on
treating those entities. There is a unique purpose for the social work
curriculum, and the Church utilizes individuals with this specific training as
employees and interns throughout the world in church employment services,
Deseret Industries agencies, church humanitarian aid, and LDS Family
Services.
Don't hurt the program | 3:26 p.m. Jan. 20, 2008
BYU�s social work program can be improved, just like any
program can be improved, but there are other ways of accomplishing this without
eliminating one of the finest BSW programs in the country.
What? | 3:26 p.m. Jan. 20, 2008
The LDS Church has a social services division to council members in need of such
services. It really says something when they choose not to teach their own
councilors. Or is cutting that program next because LDS members no longer need
such services?
Tom - a social worker | 3:28 p.m. Jan. 20, 2008
It is my hope that BYU leaders will create an objective forum where they can do
exactly what the Dean has said he has done (but hasn�t),
involve students, faculty, community agencies, and advisory board members to
gather data and provide input to help BYU make the best possible decision. It
is my hope that the current decision can be postponed and a committee of
individuals just mentioned from the community can research the claims being
made. It is my belief that the findings will be different than those of the
Dean. There are many willing to help provide this information who have not been
given the opportunity to do so.
A BYU Grad | 3:32 p.m. Jan. 20, 2008
My wife is a graduate of the U of U social work program. She loved the U, but
she tried for years to get into BYU's program, because it has such a great
reputation throughout the country, but never got in. I love BYU and only want
what is best for its social work students, as well as for the many agencies,
clients and underprivileged individuals and families who will now, not be served
by BYU trained social workers.
danite | 3:39 p.m. Jan. 20, 2008
If four other universities in Utah offer an undergraduate degree in social work,
why does BYU need to offer one as well? After all, BYU doesn't train
physicians.
I want to be a homemaker | 4:06 p.m. Jan. 20, 2008
I am a married BYU student and the mother of 1 child, soon to be 2. I have
worked in the community long enough to find out that the BSW license is the most
marketable license one can get in the social sciences. My plan was to enroll in
the BSW program, so I can be ready, if needed sometime in my life, to work as a
bachelor trained social worker. Doesn't BYU support women getting trained,
but also women who want to put their families first? I'm very confused.
BYU is now telling me I need to go on and get a Master's degree. The Dean
is now telling students he wants them to go on and get PhDs. I don't want
that, and will put my family first. I've tried to talk with BYU
administrators to convey my thoughts but no one is willing to listen. Does
anyone have any recommendations? I know there are other women in the same
situation as I, who just want to get BSW degrees. Unfortunately, we are not yet
ready to apply for the program, so we are not a part of it yet. Please help!
Bill from South Dakota says | 5:17 p.m. Jan. 20, 2008
Quit your whining. A decision was made by the Dean of a department at a private
university. This decision is apparently supported by the administration and the
board of directors. It may be that they want the U of U, USU and UVSU to absorb
the responsibility and $$'s for the undergrad programs. Anyway you look at
it, it is their decision to make not yours!!
RE: I want to be homemaker | 5:47 p.m. Jan. 20, 2008
Does anyone have any suggestions?
Simple.
1- Transfer to UVSC, U of U, Utah State.
2- Get a degree in something else then get a masters in social work.
3- Choose a different major.
Simple.
1- Transfer to UVSC, U of U, Utah State.
2- Get a degree in something else then get a masters in social work.
3- Choose a different major.
Jimmy | 6:21 p.m. Jan. 20, 2008
Harvard of the West?
Sheesh.
Sheesh.
RE: Jimmy | 7:48 p.m. Jan. 20, 2008
Who brought Stanford into this?
CTR | 9:19 p.m. Jan. 20, 2008
The real reason to eliminate the program probably has nothing to do with money,
but instead it is based on the way things are run throughout the LDS church. We
have stake presidents and bishops who are the "social workers" of the
church. There is no need to have an expensive program at BYU! I know it is
wrong, but thats the way it is. Get use to it.
Response | 10:06 p.m. Jan. 20, 2008
I'm not a Mormon, but I suggest the victims should talk to the Mormon
President Hinkley.
Anonymous | 10:54 p.m. Jan. 20, 2008
Funny how so many people resent LDS schools, yet when they realize how much they
depend on them they change their tune.
Heartbroken | 11:03 p.m. Jan. 20, 2008
I am a BYU BSW and MSW alumni. BYU�s BSW program is a
nationally recognized program. The demand has been so great that students have
to apply to get into the highly competitive program. With that level of demand
and the quality of students who get into the program, it should be considered an
�essential� program. During the
program, I was always told how BYU social work students are so well known across
the nation for the level of their preparedness to join the workforce and the
quality of their work. I have met many people that have graduated from other
social work programs across the nation and I have to say that NONE of them were
as prepared for the work as I was. I am grateful to my BYU social work
professors. I could not have gotten the level of education that I received
anywhere else, especially for the cost. I believe that there are other reasons
than what has been said to cut the program, the reasons stated do not make sense
or are not true. I will write letters and make phone calls as long as I can, to
try and get this decision reversed.
Julie-BSW, MSW at BYU | 11:09 p.m. Jan. 20, 2008
The BYU BSW program is a great program. It would be a shame to discontinue a
program that is so needed. The program has helped me to live a more Christ like
life. Indeed the Saviors admonition to � bear one
another�s burdens, that they may be light; yea, and are
willing to mourn with those that morn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need
of comfort,� (Mosiah 18:8-9) is met through the many people
who received BSW degrees. We are told in Jacob 2:18, �And
after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them;
and ye will seek them for the intent to do good- to clothe the naked, and to
feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick
and afflicted.� That is what social work is all about. I
view psychology and sociology as academic pursuits, while social work strives to
take that knowledge and use it to help others. I see it as a way to do
God�s work on earth, to put charity for all men into
action. BYU is the very place social work needs to be taught.
Ha | 6:51 a.m. Jan. 21, 2008
The only university I know of that has a home economics degree. Haa.
GoodGuyGary | 7:39 a.m. Jan. 21, 2008
How come BYU don't eliminate the Accounting program? Or Law program, or
Nursing program, but BSW? Go figure people.
BT | 7:56 a.m. Jan. 21, 2008
Welcome to real life, social work students. My major was canceled while I was on
my mission, and no provisions were made to at least allow me to finish the
program. I had to start over in a new one, all the while having the
administration threatening to hike my tuition because it took me more than four
years to graduate as a result.
As to the idea that you can land a decent job with a bachelor's, I suppose that may be true sometimes. I do not doubt there is a growing need for qualified candidates. But after years of discussions with a close friend who is a social worker with decades of experience and only a bachelor's degree, I can also say your upward mobility on the pay scale and career options within the field are severely limited without a masters. Frankly, I think BYU is doing you all a favor by forcing you to diversify your education a bit.
As to the idea that you can land a decent job with a bachelor's, I suppose that may be true sometimes. I do not doubt there is a growing need for qualified candidates. But after years of discussions with a close friend who is a social worker with decades of experience and only a bachelor's degree, I can also say your upward mobility on the pay scale and career options within the field are severely limited without a masters. Frankly, I think BYU is doing you all a favor by forcing you to diversify your education a bit.
So what?? | 8:00 a.m. Jan. 21, 2008
Jeez. No wonder some people have such a negative perception of BYU and the
church. You guys sound like the biggest whiners I've ever heard of. So
your life plan didn't work out oat BYU. Since when have they been
obligated to make absolutely every one happy? It's a decision that's
already been made. Live with it people. It sounds live UVSC is more than
willing to help take up the slack. Or is it something deeper.. you just want
the prestige of having BYU on your diploma. Go to learn, not to get a name on
your diploma. It's like your foundations have been shaken, and every one
of you has lost your faith because something of so inconsequential. The church
must not be true because it allowed BYU to get rid of the social work program!!
Sheesh, give me a break.....
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No, students are NOT safe from predators. If a parent wants to make sure...
If you really think Mormon's are mainstream, you must not have paid attention...
I don't see the schools presidents voting to get rid of WYM or NM, even...
why people complain about how football is covered by the media too much. when...
A little perspective is not a bad thing. Notice the Cougar's won loss record...
I actually was encouraged by some aspects of the game. Any Utah fan who has...
A story about Mormons as minorities? In this paper? Get over the "victim"...
she was an awesome woman someone i looked up to when i was younger she was...
Wow you just made one of the dumbest comments I've heard yet. Fire Bronco????...
Re: Huh?, You like many other haters are probably oblivious to many obvious...
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