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Lawmakers, LDS Church brainstorm
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Shelly and Sammy | 8:16 a.m. Jan. 22, 2008
Do either of you ever speed? If so, you'd better turn yourselves in,
demand a sentence of 15-20 years in prison, and fines of $500,000 for all the
damage you did to society--both directly and indirectly. If not,
congratulations for at least being partially consistent with your position. But
maybe you'd better start advocating the death penalty for speeding to make
yourselves FULLY consistent.
Come on, you two and all you in the "illegals are lawbreakers and deserve harsh punishment" mob. Don't you people recognize there are some violations of the law that are more serious than others? And that merely crossing into our country illegally is a less serious violation than many others on the books?
Now when illegal immigrants go on to commit far *worse* crimes, lock them up and throw away the key. As far as you can throw it! Fine with me! But part of being humane about illegal immigration is recognizing this: If entering the country illegally is your ONLY crime, and that you're just here to feed your family, you don't deserve the same punishment as a thief, rapist or murderer.
That, folks, is ALSO the rule of law!
Come on, you two and all you in the "illegals are lawbreakers and deserve harsh punishment" mob. Don't you people recognize there are some violations of the law that are more serious than others? And that merely crossing into our country illegally is a less serious violation than many others on the books?
Now when illegal immigrants go on to commit far *worse* crimes, lock them up and throw away the key. As far as you can throw it! Fine with me! But part of being humane about illegal immigration is recognizing this: If entering the country illegally is your ONLY crime, and that you're just here to feed your family, you don't deserve the same punishment as a thief, rapist or murderer.
That, folks, is ALSO the rule of law!
Grandma C. | 8:25 a.m. Jan. 22, 2008
Why all the venom and hatred here?
The U.S. government is required to treat terrorists and war criminals in a humane manner. Church officials have suggested similar treatment for those who come to our country without the proper sanctions.
To declare all illegals criminals is hateful and unnecessary. And reflects poorly on the values of the one who perpetuates such thinking.
The U.S. government is required to treat terrorists and war criminals in a humane manner. Church officials have suggested similar treatment for those who come to our country without the proper sanctions.
To declare all illegals criminals is hateful and unnecessary. And reflects poorly on the values of the one who perpetuates such thinking.
Comments continue below
h | 9:04 a.m. Jan. 22, 2008
The Law-of-the-Landers aren't fooling anyone with their
not-so-cleverly-disguised hatred for people different than them.
Nazi Germany also started off with legal reasons why some people in their midst should not be welcome.
History shows what happened with this xenophobic, racist mindset.
Nazi Germany also started off with legal reasons why some people in their midst should not be welcome.
History shows what happened with this xenophobic, racist mindset.
a bit of history | 10:34 a.m. Jan. 22, 2008
Between 1933 and 1934, Nazi law of the land was fairly moderate, not wishing to
scare off voters or moderately-minded politicians (although the eugenics program
was established as soon as July 1933). The Nazi Party used popular anti-semitism
to gain votes. They blamed poverty, unemployment, and the loss of World War I
all on the Jews and the left-wing. German woes were attributed to the effects of
the Treaty of Versailles. In 1933, persecution of the Jews became active Nazi
policy. It only became worse with the years, culminating in the Holocaust, or
so-called �Final Solution to the Jewish
Problem�, which was decided by Hitler during World War II
and officialized at the January 1942 Wannsee Conference.
Sandy | 10:34 a.m. Jan. 22, 2008
Grandma C.... go watch your grand kids. they need you.
To anonymous 8:16 who always goes without a name on here. You are constantly saying chomping on the same old issue over and over again. Your behavior is biased and races. If you happen to be an illegal, I suggest that you leave this country and take your speeding and hit run car with you. ILLEGALS ARE LAW BREAKERS!!!!
To anonymous 8:16 who always goes without a name on here. You are constantly saying chomping on the same old issue over and over again. Your behavior is biased and races. If you happen to be an illegal, I suggest that you leave this country and take your speeding and hit run car with you. ILLEGALS ARE LAW BREAKERS!!!!
jfrazier | 11:31 a.m. Jan. 22, 2008
DahktaD,
Wow, you make some very large leaps in your logic that are completely unfounded. Your twisted logic and exagerations are exactly what the religious leaders are cautioning against. Take a breath and relax and perhaps you will start to make sense with your ramblings.
I was just pointing out that the punishment should fit the crime. Jump to an extreme position on this if you want, but by doing so you quickly lose credibility. So do you propose we round up all illegal aliens, rough them up and lock them in our jails for six months, then deport them? I agree they ought to be deported expeditiously, but busting down doors and treating them the same as rapists, drug trafficers, etc. is a bit harsh considering in other respects they may be good citizens. As for those that commit other felony crimes, lock them up and then deport them. They deserve the rough treatment.
It really is funny reading your rant. You call me racist but I never once mentioned a nationality...you did. I don't care who they are, but apparently you do.
Wow, you make some very large leaps in your logic that are completely unfounded. Your twisted logic and exagerations are exactly what the religious leaders are cautioning against. Take a breath and relax and perhaps you will start to make sense with your ramblings.
I was just pointing out that the punishment should fit the crime. Jump to an extreme position on this if you want, but by doing so you quickly lose credibility. So do you propose we round up all illegal aliens, rough them up and lock them in our jails for six months, then deport them? I agree they ought to be deported expeditiously, but busting down doors and treating them the same as rapists, drug trafficers, etc. is a bit harsh considering in other respects they may be good citizens. As for those that commit other felony crimes, lock them up and then deport them. They deserve the rough treatment.
It really is funny reading your rant. You call me racist but I never once mentioned a nationality...you did. I don't care who they are, but apparently you do.
Anonymous | 12:21 p.m. Jan. 22, 2008
America has a big problem with illegal immigration, but a big part of it stems
from the word "illegal." It pollutes the debate. It blocks solutions.
Used dispassionately and technically, there is nothing wrong with it. Used as an
irreducible modifier for a large and largely decent group of people, it is badly
damaging. And as a code word for racial and ethnic hatred, it is detestable.
Our right-wingers are wackier than normal on this issue where as usual, to the them, there are never any gray areas to the issue.
Our right-wingers are wackier than normal on this issue where as usual, to the them, there are never any gray areas to the issue.
jfrazier | 12:45 p.m. Jan. 22, 2008
Anonymous 12:21,
Well, that is a bit too P.C. Is it also badly damaging to call drug addicts, drug addicts rather than chemically dependent people? Sure, sugar coat it any way you want, this group of people have broken the law of the land. I am for humane and civilized methods of dealing with the issue, but call it what it is. I am very conservative, and maybe even right-wing wacky according to some, but let's think this problem through and do what is best to preserve the laws of the land and treat these people with dignity while fixing the problem.
I think a lot of the harsh edge has originated from the lack of government action on the problem. Generally, the vigilanty mentality, and its associated hatred, evolves from frustration with the system.
Well, that is a bit too P.C. Is it also badly damaging to call drug addicts, drug addicts rather than chemically dependent people? Sure, sugar coat it any way you want, this group of people have broken the law of the land. I am for humane and civilized methods of dealing with the issue, but call it what it is. I am very conservative, and maybe even right-wing wacky according to some, but let's think this problem through and do what is best to preserve the laws of the land and treat these people with dignity while fixing the problem.
I think a lot of the harsh edge has originated from the lack of government action on the problem. Generally, the vigilanty mentality, and its associated hatred, evolves from frustration with the system.
Anonymous | 2:02 p.m. Jan. 22, 2008
You would think that in this situation, cooler heads would prevail.
But look what happened when people tried to stop the Bush Doctrine's War on Iraq.
But look what happened when people tried to stop the Bush Doctrine's War on Iraq.
words, more words | 2:18 p.m. Jan. 22, 2008
At least "undocumented" � and an even better
word, "unauthorized" � contain the possibility of
reparation and atonement, and allow for a sensible reaction proportional to the
offense. The paralysis in Congress and the country over fixing our immigration
laws stems from our inability to get our heads around the wrenching change
involved in making an illegal person legal. Think of doing that with a crime,
like cocaine dealing or arson. Unthinkable!
Fed-up! | 2:37 p.m. Jan. 22, 2008
Ive always been a loyal member of the church, however part of this illegal
problem I blame on the church. If they weren't telling these people they
were Lamanites-choke-choke! We would not have them coming here and breaking our
laws, and pretending to love the church, and falsely hiding in the shadows of
the church. I am extremely tired of all this silliness as are most LDS. This is
profoundly ridiculous! Everyone is aware of DNA nowadays--DA!
DahktaD | 6:24 p.m. Jan. 22, 2008
Large leaps? Unfounded? In what way, please do tell oh worldy one.
It seems you have brought on a tangent of kicking down doors. Quite the contrary, if found an illegal should pay as the law prescribes, do you have an issue with that? Then after plea to 30 days, they should be removed from the country, permanently. As far as a mass round up of some 12-20 million, obviously no do-able. However, removing the magnets of illegal immigration, ie - jobs, medical care, social services, 'driver privilege cards', et al...the problem will cure itself in due time. In the meantime ICE and the Border Patrol should continue to pursue enforcement of OUR US laws to the extent possible, expeditiously at that. With the pending recession and loss of jobs, it will become more apparent to the public at large who is removing food from the dinner table of US Citizens and LEGAL residents. Patience Frazier, patience.
It seems you have brought on a tangent of kicking down doors. Quite the contrary, if found an illegal should pay as the law prescribes, do you have an issue with that? Then after plea to 30 days, they should be removed from the country, permanently. As far as a mass round up of some 12-20 million, obviously no do-able. However, removing the magnets of illegal immigration, ie - jobs, medical care, social services, 'driver privilege cards', et al...the problem will cure itself in due time. In the meantime ICE and the Border Patrol should continue to pursue enforcement of OUR US laws to the extent possible, expeditiously at that. With the pending recession and loss of jobs, it will become more apparent to the public at large who is removing food from the dinner table of US Citizens and LEGAL residents. Patience Frazier, patience.
LDS in Texas | 7:43 p.m. Jan. 22, 2008
Whoa! Do you folks in Utah really think the immigration issues are the fault of
the LDS church? If so, please explain why the same problems exist in Texas ...
and Arizona ... and California ... and Florida.
RE: LDS in Texas | 12:15 a.m. Jan. 23, 2008
Nah--in Utah, EVERYTHING'S the church's fault! Illegal immigration,
global warming, lead-paint-laced products, the Iraq War, high gas prices, and
Uncle Elmer's toenail fungus--it's all on the Mormons' doorstep!
Even your own problems! Believable or not, find a way to blame the church!
It's fun--at least if you're spiteful! It's easy--at least once
you learn to ignore facts and logic and spew vicious emotionally laden rhetoric
instead! And it's free--of human compassion and decency!
Welcome to the poisonous cultural/religious politics of the Beehive State, where anti-religious schizophrenia is a way of life for some people. It's like a really, *really* twisted and venomous version of pin-the-tail-on-the-donkey--complete with people who actually think the tail's been pinned in the right spot, wherever it lands, and immediately start shooting to kill the poor creature.
Someone else nearly a century ago in an otherwise enlightened European nation began blaming a particular religion and those who followed it for his own country's woes. Pity the blind bigots who follow his lead today.
Welcome to the poisonous cultural/religious politics of the Beehive State, where anti-religious schizophrenia is a way of life for some people. It's like a really, *really* twisted and venomous version of pin-the-tail-on-the-donkey--complete with people who actually think the tail's been pinned in the right spot, wherever it lands, and immediately start shooting to kill the poor creature.
Someone else nearly a century ago in an otherwise enlightened European nation began blaming a particular religion and those who followed it for his own country's woes. Pity the blind bigots who follow his lead today.
Anonymous | 5:46 a.m. Jan. 23, 2008
Meanwhile, out on the edges of the debate � edges that are
coming closer to the mainstream every day � bigots pour all
their loathing of Spanish-speaking people into the word illegal. Rant about
"illegals" � call them congenital criminals,
lepers, thieves, unclean � and people will nod and applaud.
They will send money to your Web site and heed your calls to deluge lawmakers
with phone calls and faxes. Your TV ratings will go way up.
This is not only ugly, it is counterproductive, paralyzing any effort toward immigration reform. Comprehensive legislation in Congress and sensible policies at the state and local level have all been stymied and will be forever, as long as anything positive can be branded as "amnesty for illegals."
This is not only ugly, it is counterproductive, paralyzing any effort toward immigration reform. Comprehensive legislation in Congress and sensible policies at the state and local level have all been stymied and will be forever, as long as anything positive can be branded as "amnesty for illegals."
jfrazier | 7:47 a.m. Jan. 23, 2008
DahktaD,
The leap in logic was to lump all crimes into the same category. There are degrees of crimes and those that pose an imminent threat and those that don't. Likewise, the treatment of these varying degrees of criminals should be appropriate. That's all I was saying.
All your other latter comments I agree with.
As for patience, I am proposing patience in dealing with this issue. Let's not try to solve this problem overnight by causing unfounded harm to otherwise good people. I just hate to see mobocracy take over. I agree wholeheartedly that if we take away the attractant and tighten the borders we will then be able to deal with those that are here now. I have a real problem with Mexico being so casual about this. If they would improve conditions in their country the people would not have to come here to survive.
The leap in logic was to lump all crimes into the same category. There are degrees of crimes and those that pose an imminent threat and those that don't. Likewise, the treatment of these varying degrees of criminals should be appropriate. That's all I was saying.
All your other latter comments I agree with.
As for patience, I am proposing patience in dealing with this issue. Let's not try to solve this problem overnight by causing unfounded harm to otherwise good people. I just hate to see mobocracy take over. I agree wholeheartedly that if we take away the attractant and tighten the borders we will then be able to deal with those that are here now. I have a real problem with Mexico being so casual about this. If they would improve conditions in their country the people would not have to come here to survive.
Anonymous | 8:52 a.m. Jan. 23, 2008
We are stuck with a bogus, deceptive strategy � a 700-mile
fence on a 2,000-mile border to stop a fraction of border crossers who are only
60 percent of the problem anyway, and scattershot raids to capture a few
thousand members of a group of 12 million.
None of those enforcement policies have a trace of honesty or realism. At least they don't reward illegals, and that, for now, is all this country wants. Especially the nasty far-righters.
None of those enforcement policies have a trace of honesty or realism. At least they don't reward illegals, and that, for now, is all this country wants. Especially the nasty far-righters.
Star | 10:16 a.m. Jan. 23, 2008
I think I have a tendency to believe a bit more of what "jfrazier" is
trying to say. He seems to be one of the few on here who knows what he is
talking about and not shouting hostilities.
Oh holy one, DahktaD, you need not be so patient. This is the time our country needs us all. Americans need to take action now, for our country is in VERY BIG TROUBLE.
Nevertheless, I enjoy reading the two of you jfrazier & DahkaD. Great insight!
Oh holy one, DahktaD, you need not be so patient. This is the time our country needs us all. Americans need to take action now, for our country is in VERY BIG TROUBLE.
Nevertheless, I enjoy reading the two of you jfrazier & DahkaD. Great insight!
Re: To Just Saying | 10:44 a.m. Jan. 23, 2008
You're right timing is everything. When the Mormon pioneers arrived in the
valley they were on Mexican soil. Just because the Mexican-American War was in
progress when they arrived doesn't mean that the land wasn't
Mexico's. The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, which ceded Utah to the US, was
signed on February 2, 1848, well after the Saint's arrival.
sage | 11:07 a.m. Jan. 23, 2008
I had an ancestor who helped free this land from Mexico. Go read about the
Mormon Battalion. This part of Mexico was bought and paid for by Americans. it
truly belongs to USA.
DahktaD | 11:13 a.m. Jan. 23, 2008
My good man Frazier, I see we are in agreement in total. Well said!
My dear Star, no I am not a holy one, just a resident heathen. But I do agree that our country is in "very big trouble", and Amercians do need to take action now. The question that confronts us all, is 'what' action do we take and 'how' do we go about doing it?
My dear Star, no I am not a holy one, just a resident heathen. But I do agree that our country is in "very big trouble", and Amercians do need to take action now. The question that confronts us all, is 'what' action do we take and 'how' do we go about doing it?
Star | 11:27 a.m. Jan. 23, 2008
RE: DahktaD,
Perhaps you and jfrazier can talk some sense into some of the people that read this site. There are some who just don't get it. I don't believe that the the church realizes the seriousness of this problem with the illegals. However, I could be wrong. I more or less just enjoy the reading. Keep up the good writing on here. I find it extremely interesting. I hope DN as well keeps this site.
It was good that you dropped the T heathen. It just wasn't working out...lol!
Perhaps you and jfrazier can talk some sense into some of the people that read this site. There are some who just don't get it. I don't believe that the the church realizes the seriousness of this problem with the illegals. However, I could be wrong. I more or less just enjoy the reading. Keep up the good writing on here. I find it extremely interesting. I hope DN as well keeps this site.
It was good that you dropped the T heathen. It just wasn't working out...lol!
DhaktaD | 11:40 a.m. Jan. 23, 2008
My dear Star...to talk sense into one, they must be receptive to a differing
point of view and have a moderate grasp of reality. I am remiss to report, the
astounding level of prozac use in this fair state does have a detrimental
effect, clouding the cognizant abilities of so many of the pulpit pundits.
I therefor result to consume a moderate amount of Chivas to be equaly clouded when having a discourse with those from the pulpit thereby equalizing the playing field, I dare say.
I therefor result to consume a moderate amount of Chivas to be equaly clouded when having a discourse with those from the pulpit thereby equalizing the playing field, I dare say.
jfrazier | 11:48 a.m. Jan. 23, 2008
DahktaD,
When reasonable people (if we may be considered such) take the emotion out of things and discuss/debate things intelligently, agreements can certainly be reached. We never were really that far apart, however.
I find the whole right/left political debate on many issues comes down not to WHAT we want to acheive, but rather, HOW we aim to acheive it. That's where things get a bit tough.
As to Star's comment on the seriousness of the problem: even though, perhaps, the leadership may not view it as a big problem, rank and file members certainly do. All the conservative members of the church that I know (which is about ALL the members I know) are very concerned about this. However, since local LDS organizations are apolitical, there is not a mechanism to convey local political concerns up the chain of leadership. I am strictly speaking from my own perspective, mind you.
When reasonable people (if we may be considered such) take the emotion out of things and discuss/debate things intelligently, agreements can certainly be reached. We never were really that far apart, however.
I find the whole right/left political debate on many issues comes down not to WHAT we want to acheive, but rather, HOW we aim to acheive it. That's where things get a bit tough.
As to Star's comment on the seriousness of the problem: even though, perhaps, the leadership may not view it as a big problem, rank and file members certainly do. All the conservative members of the church that I know (which is about ALL the members I know) are very concerned about this. However, since local LDS organizations are apolitical, there is not a mechanism to convey local political concerns up the chain of leadership. I am strictly speaking from my own perspective, mind you.
Wilkey | 12:44 p.m. Jan. 23, 2008
"When the Mormon pioneers arrived in the valley they were on Mexican soil.
Just because the Mexican-American War was in progress when they arrived
doesn't mean that the land wasn't Mexico's. The Treaty of
Guadalupe Hidalgo, which ceded Utah to the US, was signed on February 2, 1848,
well after the Saint's arrival."
The land was not Mexico's. Mexico had a claim on the land, and nothing else. It would be like me claiming to own the moon - irrelevant.
There were virtually no Mexican settlements in the ceded territories, including none at all in Utah. The Treaty of GH allowed Mexicans in ceded territories to remain and keep their lands - even so, the total population of California in 1850 was less than 100,000 people.
The US certainly stole land from the Indians - who are NOT Hispanic - but they did not steal it from Mexico.
The land was not Mexico's. Mexico had a claim on the land, and nothing else. It would be like me claiming to own the moon - irrelevant.
There were virtually no Mexican settlements in the ceded territories, including none at all in Utah. The Treaty of GH allowed Mexicans in ceded territories to remain and keep their lands - even so, the total population of California in 1850 was less than 100,000 people.
The US certainly stole land from the Indians - who are NOT Hispanic - but they did not steal it from Mexico.
J. Smith | 12:52 p.m. Jan. 23, 2008
All the Church was saying folks is don't forget these immigrants are human
beings. Never did they say they were in support of illegal immigration. The
fact of the matter is that church policy states if an individual is an illegal
immigrant they cannot be baptized a member of the church, until everything is
worked out.
Star | 1:03 p.m. Jan. 23, 2008
DhaktaD & jfrazier,
About people on prozac, I believe they are numbed by its effect. The drug is spiritually disabling to those who take it. They become non-caring. I believe this is what prozac was meant to do. It makes me think though, that this is what has caused much of the blindness and coldness among people here.
The illegal problem is just another episode of what happens from the numbing of ones brain function, and to many people run church and government who take the drug. Sadly, Utah members are the biggest victims of abuse. Drugs are drugs. Medically prescribed or bought simply off the street. The illegals prefer the streets, and bring them here to survive.
About people on prozac, I believe they are numbed by its effect. The drug is spiritually disabling to those who take it. They become non-caring. I believe this is what prozac was meant to do. It makes me think though, that this is what has caused much of the blindness and coldness among people here.
The illegal problem is just another episode of what happens from the numbing of ones brain function, and to many people run church and government who take the drug. Sadly, Utah members are the biggest victims of abuse. Drugs are drugs. Medically prescribed or bought simply off the street. The illegals prefer the streets, and bring them here to survive.
Be Compassionate | 1:04 p.m. Jan. 23, 2008
The LDS Church is not trying to influence law makers or the laws they pass. A
meeting is something between two parties. They didn't go there looking to
be told what laws to pass and they weren't. Rather, they were given good
sound advise that all of us need to follow it sounds like. Have compassion.
Remember those people who are affected by these laws are infact human beings.
They are not second rate citizens. Illegal immigration is a huge problem in the
U.S. but to date the way these laws are being carried out has been ludicrous in
many cases seperating a child from his/her parents. Let's take a look at
how we can be fair, just, and compassionate.
Funky Monkey | 1:19 p.m. Jan. 23, 2008
re: Wilkey,
I suppose you could as well write that the European Conquistadors, who were as well from Spain, also stole the land from Mexico, and all of the rest of south America. However, I believe God gave the earth to all human beings who dwell upon. Humans have always moved around and about on this earth, invading the lands of others. That will never change. Nonetheless, lets stick to the illegal problem of the day. It is not going to get any better if people can't abide by laws.
I suppose you could as well write that the European Conquistadors, who were as well from Spain, also stole the land from Mexico, and all of the rest of south America. However, I believe God gave the earth to all human beings who dwell upon. Humans have always moved around and about on this earth, invading the lands of others. That will never change. Nonetheless, lets stick to the illegal problem of the day. It is not going to get any better if people can't abide by laws.
Capt., Crunch | 1:30 p.m. Jan. 23, 2008
to: J Smith
Maybe the church should as well advise these illegals if they are aware of it to go home. They need to make that clear with members. If they claim to be true believers, then sustaining the 12th article of faith is part of it. Don't you think?
Maybe the church should as well advise these illegals if they are aware of it to go home. They need to make that clear with members. If they claim to be true believers, then sustaining the 12th article of faith is part of it. Don't you think?
Huh? | 1:40 p.m. Jan. 23, 2008
Be Compassionate,
Give me a break. You make it sound like the illegals don't have a brain in their heads. Therefor we should feel compassion for them breaking our laws?...ummmmm??? Somehow that is the silliest thing that I have ever heard. I hope you are kid and not an adult with that kind of thinking.
Give me a break. You make it sound like the illegals don't have a brain in their heads. Therefor we should feel compassion for them breaking our laws?...ummmmm??? Somehow that is the silliest thing that I have ever heard. I hope you are kid and not an adult with that kind of thinking.
sodie | 1:41 p.m. Jan. 23, 2008
Re: "Who will run the dairies, mow our lawns, and do whatever manual labor
we as a society have grown acustom to? You might notice the economy is trouble.
This will make it much worse."
It wasn't very long ago that I was in college and was mowing lawns, doing landscaping, hanging drywall and even working as a housekeeper to pay my way through school. How could getting people to work their way through school instead of getting themselves deep into debt be bad for the economy? How could stopping the vast amounts of cash from being wired south of the border be bad for the economy? Right now they are talking about further nonsense of printing more money as a 'stimulous package' rather than looking at why we have a problem to begin with. How could having a decrease on welfare, school, healthcare demands in this country be bad for the economy? The country simply has too look at the total cost of this 'cheap' labor. They aren't saving as much as they think.
It wasn't very long ago that I was in college and was mowing lawns, doing landscaping, hanging drywall and even working as a housekeeper to pay my way through school. How could getting people to work their way through school instead of getting themselves deep into debt be bad for the economy? How could stopping the vast amounts of cash from being wired south of the border be bad for the economy? Right now they are talking about further nonsense of printing more money as a 'stimulous package' rather than looking at why we have a problem to begin with. How could having a decrease on welfare, school, healthcare demands in this country be bad for the economy? The country simply has too look at the total cost of this 'cheap' labor. They aren't saving as much as they think.
Anonymous | 2:12 p.m. Jan. 23, 2008
Let me get this straight -
If they become legal, they can STILL be exploited, right?
If they become legal, they can STILL be exploited, right?
Anonymous | 2:35 p.m. Jan. 23, 2008
"The LDS Church is not trying to influence law makers or the laws they
pass. A meeting is something between two parties. They didn't go there
looking to be told what laws to pass and they weren't."
Yep - the LDS Church just happened to decide to have a meeting with lawmakers, right before the legislative session. And, of course, they weren't at all trying to influence policy.
Spare me.
Yep - the LDS Church just happened to decide to have a meeting with lawmakers, right before the legislative session. And, of course, they weren't at all trying to influence policy.
Spare me.
Capt., Crunch | 2:44 p.m. Jan. 23, 2008
They just need to get their acts together and go through the proper channels to
become a American citizen. It seems we are all back to the same old feel sorry
for illegals game on here.
Although, until they learn to keep the American laws, which are important to the well being of the USA, they will only exploit their own people. Sad, but the truth of the matter lies with them. Lets try to be honest in this country. Compassion will follow.
Although, until they learn to keep the American laws, which are important to the well being of the USA, they will only exploit their own people. Sad, but the truth of the matter lies with them. Lets try to be honest in this country. Compassion will follow.
Anonymous | 3:09 p.m. Jan. 23, 2008
Is it okay for undocumented Mexican workers to help build the US version of the
Great Wall of China?
I hear they work very cheap.
I hear they work very cheap.
Anonymous | 3:26 p.m. Jan. 23, 2008
It seems to me the LDS church's primary concern is to humanize the problem
for those who can go further than see undocumented workers as
"illegals."
It's the same thing the far-right has done in demonizing the word liberal.
It's the same thing the far-right has done in demonizing the word liberal.
Anonymous | 7:14 p.m. Jan. 23, 2008
"It seems to me the LDS church's primary concern is to humanize the
problem for those who can go further than see undocumented workers as
'illegals.'"
No, the LDS Church's primary concerns are to:
1) Boost membership numbers. Since English-speaking Americans aren't joining anymore they need illegals.
2) Bring converts form Latin America, where inactivity rates are low and they pay almost nothing in tithing, to the US, where they'll pay in tithing and are more likely to stay active.
3) Make life hunky-dory for rich church members like the Ivorys, Fultons, Marriotts, Peerys, and Holdings, who all benefit financially from high rates of immigration and cheap labor.
4) To piggyback on the cause du jour. They missed the boat by about 2 decades on the last one (civil rights) and they don't want to get blindsided again. They think amnesty for illegal immigrants is the moral equivalent of civil rights for black Americans. Well, they're wrong.
No, the LDS Church's primary concerns are to:
1) Boost membership numbers. Since English-speaking Americans aren't joining anymore they need illegals.
2) Bring converts form Latin America, where inactivity rates are low and they pay almost nothing in tithing, to the US, where they'll pay in tithing and are more likely to stay active.
3) Make life hunky-dory for rich church members like the Ivorys, Fultons, Marriotts, Peerys, and Holdings, who all benefit financially from high rates of immigration and cheap labor.
4) To piggyback on the cause du jour. They missed the boat by about 2 decades on the last one (civil rights) and they don't want to get blindsided again. They think amnesty for illegal immigrants is the moral equivalent of civil rights for black Americans. Well, they're wrong.
BIG Tithe Payer | 7:38 p.m. Jan. 23, 2008
WOW, Anonymous 7:14
You look like you are in the know of things. I would have to AGREE with you 100% on what you have said here. I know quite a few people in the church who have similar views who are as well active members of the church. This is all so very true!
I wondering what the future holds for my religion. It's really starting to lose faith with many people. Or as they would put it, we are losing the faith...Ok whatever.
You look like you are in the know of things. I would have to AGREE with you 100% on what you have said here. I know quite a few people in the church who have similar views who are as well active members of the church. This is all so very true!
I wondering what the future holds for my religion. It's really starting to lose faith with many people. Or as they would put it, we are losing the faith...Ok whatever.
Anonymous | 8:01 p.m. Jan. 23, 2008
When an organization places itself before the individual - that organization is
a monstrous one.
Re: Anonymous 7:14 | 8:19 p.m. Jan. 23, 2008
If you've never been accused of 2nd guessing a person's or an organization's motives then I'm going to do it to you here and now. I'm a member of the church and my wife is from Peru. I didn't marry wealth. I've worked extremely hard. Her and I were married in the temple. Don't find a few wealthy members of 'the church' though and cast a bone you have to pick with them. "The Church" if full of many people - handicapped, sick, sinners, repentant, blessed, not so blessed, healthy and strong and faithfull and doubtfull - - - I can tell you being a member of the church that I don't have ulterior motives anywhere near the ones you've mentioned. I'm in fact writing to you because I care about you. You've obviously been frustrated with elements of mortality that all of us are frustrated with sooner or later. I share your frustration in many ways. At the head of the church, however, is Jesus Christ and his teachings and words and life and everything he did and does is and taught and teaches is what 'the church' stands for. You're not perfect and I'm not either.
Wilkey | 8:52 p.m. Jan. 23, 2008
***"If you've never been accused of 2nd guessing a person's or an
organization's motives then I'm going to do it to you here and
now."***
So much of what the LDS Church does happens behinds closed doors. It makes decisions on how to spend money behind closed doors. It makes decisions on doctrine and policy behind closed doors. It selects its leadership behind closed doors.
It doesn't HAVE to, but it DOES.
If it did these things openly then you could make more of a legitimate claim about how bad it is to second-guess what they do.
***"At the head of the church, however, is Jesus Christ and his teachings and words and life and everything he did and does is and taught and teaches is what 'the church' stands for."***
No, Jesus Christ is not at the head of the Church. Who is referred to as its president? Not Jesus, but Gordon B Hinckley. The fact is that these men make decisions on their own, without Jesus's help.
They may purport to speak for Jesus Christ, but it's up to us to decide whether that claim is true or not. I've made up my mind.
So much of what the LDS Church does happens behinds closed doors. It makes decisions on how to spend money behind closed doors. It makes decisions on doctrine and policy behind closed doors. It selects its leadership behind closed doors.
It doesn't HAVE to, but it DOES.
If it did these things openly then you could make more of a legitimate claim about how bad it is to second-guess what they do.
***"At the head of the church, however, is Jesus Christ and his teachings and words and life and everything he did and does is and taught and teaches is what 'the church' stands for."***
No, Jesus Christ is not at the head of the Church. Who is referred to as its president? Not Jesus, but Gordon B Hinckley. The fact is that these men make decisions on their own, without Jesus's help.
They may purport to speak for Jesus Christ, but it's up to us to decide whether that claim is true or not. I've made up my mind.
Anonymous | 8:54 p.m. Jan. 23, 2008
Re: Anonymous
You keep telling the same story over and over again. We have heard time after time about your wife being from PERU. I cannot help it that it bothers you so much. It is no ones fault who you married. So quit trying to put everyone on here on a guilt trip. Please give it a break, friend.
You keep telling the same story over and over again. We have heard time after time about your wife being from PERU. I cannot help it that it bothers you so much. It is no ones fault who you married. So quit trying to put everyone on here on a guilt trip. Please give it a break, friend.
re: Wilkey | 8:52 p.m | 11:08 p.m. Jan. 23, 2008
In reference to your quote: "They may purport to speak for Jesus Christ,
but it's up to us to decide whether that claim is true or not. I've
made up my mind."
Instead of spending so much time on these blogs, why don't you do something about it. You and others that are members of the church that can be so critical about it and it's leaders fail to understand you have the capability to express an opinion. And I don't mean across these blogs.
And how to do it... In April, there will be a general conference. At all conferences there will be a sustaining of officers. If you and others like you have so much hatred for the church, here is your opportunity. When they ask for any that oppose the leadership of the mormon church, why don't raise your hand? Here is your day to make history. Take it and raise your hand to the square and vote NO for the mormon church leadership.
Instead of spending so much time on these blogs, why don't you do something about it. You and others that are members of the church that can be so critical about it and it's leaders fail to understand you have the capability to express an opinion. And I don't mean across these blogs.
And how to do it... In April, there will be a general conference. At all conferences there will be a sustaining of officers. If you and others like you have so much hatred for the church, here is your opportunity. When they ask for any that oppose the leadership of the mormon church, why don't raise your hand? Here is your day to make history. Take it and raise your hand to the square and vote NO for the mormon church leadership.
dootee2 | 8:58 p.m. Jan. 24, 2008
My father emigrated here back in the 1930's from the Philippines. He
learned English, joined the US Navy and fought in WWII and in the Korean
Conflict. For his service he was able to earn his citizenship, but he still had
to take the test like everyone else. Now...there's an idea! Why not have
the illegals earn their right to be here by serving in the military? Or is that
asking too much?
April | 8:01 a.m. Jan. 28, 2008
As a Protestant Christian, I'm all for compassion, but the law is the law.
MILLIONS of ILLEGAL ALIENS have been willfully invading our country, working the
system -- signing up for welfare, food stamps, SOCIAL SECURITY(which in 2008
will be given to ILLEGALS who never paid into it!!!), having "anchor"
babies so their kids have US citizenship because they were born on US soil
(outrageous) and other nonsense. Where's the compassion for the AMERICANS
who have to foot the bill, who are murdered by illegals (25 a day!), and have to
live in homes that depreciate in value because several families cram into one
home, lowering property values and quality of life. Enough is enough. Check
out: ALIPAC and NUMBERSUSA, and The Dustin Inman Society -- get involved!
Lauri | 8:07 a.m. Jan. 28, 2008
The law is the law -- if you break it, you get punished, period. Why is this
illegal immigration situation any different?!? The illegals are ruining the
America that once was. Where's the compassion for the American worker
who's wages are depressed because of the influx of cheap labor?!?
Where's the compassion for the 25 Americans MURDERED every day in the US by
illegals?!? Sorry, but my "compassion" for these people who willfully
and knowingly VIOLATE our laws has dried up. It's time to get tough.
Build the fence, and deport all illegals. The laws in Mexico are much stricter
towards illegals, yet the US is supposed to just leave the door open. The
taxpayer foots the bill and the quality of life because of illegals keeps going
down. Enough of this!
Joe | 8:11 a.m. Jan. 28, 2008
To: dootee2: The reason most of the illegals don't even both coming to the
US legally is because they have no intentions of staying for good. They want to
work here for 5-10 years, send their money back to Mexico and go back. This is
exactly why they don't learn English and have a get whatever I can get for
free attitude. I've talked to the illegals who were working on my reroof
on my house and they all said the same thing. And I tell all contractors, no
illegals on my job, but they all lie saying they don't hire illegals, but
yet none of them speak English and admit to being here illegally. It's
gotten to the point of being BRAZEN -- they're not hiding "i-n the
shadows!" -Report all illegals to ICE: 1-866-347-2423
Ann | 9:52 a.m. Jan. 28, 2008
What I find absolutely amazing is that LDS church officials are meeting with the
state legislatures about policies and laws. What happened to separation of
church and state? The church is clearly trying to influence Utah politics. To
that end, the church should give up its tax exempt status since they are so
clearly trying to involve itself in politics (per usual). They are pandering to
the illegals just like some politicians and pro-illegal groups. As usual,
it's ALL about the money!
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And under your religious guidance, we are to simply ignor the illegal misdeeds, and give them permanent residence as a reward. Under your simplification by just allowing by-gones be by-gones, should the same attitude be held on the narco traffickers, human smugglers, terrorist who have enter the US illegally as well? Or is your mind so narrow as to think only Mexicans cross our borders illegally...rather racist of you, isn't it?
What I find remarkable in all this discourse about illegal immigration, is the blarring ignorance. Immediately when one mentions "illegal immigrant", all eyes move south to Mexico. Well, granted we do get quite a few from Mexico... but I wonder why China, Pakistan, Canada, India, Ivory Coast, Ireland, Germany, Iran, Russia, etc, just never seem to get on the radar screen? Look at the entirety of the problem, it is immense, and dangerous.