Deseret News | Lawmakers, LDS Church brainstorm

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Lawmakers, LDS Church brainstorm

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That humbled me. | 11:25 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Oh that I could have more of that spirit of empathy and compassion. I know without a doubt that when the church teaches throughout the world that we believe on honoring and obeying and sustaining the laws of the land, they mean it. I do not know how many illegals were Mormon's when they came over, but if they were, they would know better. Sometimes we citizens take for granted this great land we live in, others are so desperately wanting to be here. When the little dutch boy stuck his finger in the dike, that was a start to a major problem that needed to be fixed. We need to have a start with illegals and that is to secure the borders. Then we need to without hesitation get the ones who are committing crimes out of here. Then there comes the heart wrenching one, and I really need to understand the pain and anxiety that the good people who were trying to better their lives, but did it the wrong way are facing, that is what to do with them. Every case is different and we do need to have compassion and kindness, no matter the outcome.

bball3212 | 12:06 a.m. Jan. 20, 2008

If you bash LDS church leaders for doing this, then you better well bash the evangelical leaders who not only try and get candidates elected, they preach politics from their pulpit and have no shame in doing so.

I agree that people need to chil | 1:02 a.m. Jan. 20, 2008

Alan (9:00 p.m.), "Amazing, I am not a mormon and I am not here to defend your church, but some of you that criticize the LDS church need to chill. I have lived in NC,Texas, Mo., and Az,you can bet your sweet arse that other religions make trips to their legislators to make sure that they know what their positions are....You are naive to think otherwise."

This is very difficult for people to accept in Utah because they choose to make everything about the LDS Church when it doesn't have anything to do with the Church. We saw how our legislature and people really listen to Church leaders when it came to repealing prohibition. The Church took an outspoken position on the issue and yet Utah was instrumental and crucial to repealing prohibition. So, I think that people do need to chill out and realize that every Church has the right to speak to the issues they feel are important to their Church and its members. Anything less would mean that a Church is subject to the state but has no right to influence the state. That is tyranny!

Comments continue below

Voice of Reason? | 1:50 a.m. Jan. 20, 2008

I'm shaking my head reading some of this stuff. Thanks to the non-LDS folks here who defend the church's right to make its voice heard--NOT in the interest of getting new members (huh?), but in the interest of promoting overall humanity and decency.

Three reasoned possible solutions:

1) Agreed, being humane DOESN'T mean we open our borders to Mexican drug gangs, human smugglers, and foreign terrorists, while allowing those among the illegal immigrants who have committed aggravated misdemeanors and felonies to remain. So we secure the border against certain groups we REALLY don't want here, and deport illegals with criminal records--to SOUTHERNMOST Mexico.

2) We give immigrants whose ONLY crime was entering without full legal permission, in the interest of feeding their families, a humane chance to make good. Let them pay the appropriate fines--with ample mandatory backing from their U.S. employers--and apply for legal work permits *from here.* Require them to return to Mexico to apply if they don't comply within 6 months.

3) We streamline the visa application process to make it less intimidating, but permanently revoke visas for those convicted of aggravated misdemeanors and felonies--and deport them, again to SOUTHERNMOST Mexico.

Humane yet just enough?

OC Surfer | 2:01 a.m. Jan. 20, 2008

I support the Church's position by showing "compassion" by unifying all illegal immigrant families living here in the U.S. back to their homelands. Their anchor babies are welcome to join them as well.

cjp | 5:33 a.m. Jan. 20, 2008

Can't believe the all Mormon bashing in the comments --- The LDS leaders just want to remind us that these people are for the most part diecent human beings and deserve to be treated accordingly.

LOL! | 5:48 a.m. Jan. 20, 2008

You think Billy Graham never met with political leaders? Do you also think the Pope never met with political leaders? Do you also think that Jewish and Muslim leaders are not also sat at the table to meet with those in political powers? The fact is that religious leaders, including LDS, do indeed meet with those that politically represent us for the simple fact that we as a people also follow those religious leaders.

Perhaps the mormons understand the immigration issues because it has the potential for being like the polygamy issue in which fathers were thrown in jail just as fathers may be sent back to Mexico.

Nope, I'm not a mormon either.

joining forces | 7:26 a.m. Jan. 20, 2008

The Catholic church has been embracing the Statue of Liberty's "Give me your tired, your poor ..." in aiding the poor and impoverished masses for a long, long time.

Can you imagine the impact on the world today by the combined efforts of the Catholics and the Mormons in this regard?

What an incredible example it would be!

Gordon | 9:32 a.m. Jan. 20, 2008

If the Mormon church leaders meet with the Utah legistlature then they will meet with Mitt about US policy. That is the point and that is why we are very concerned about Mitt, and Huckabee is no better.

Family of 7 | 9:44 a.m. Jan. 20, 2008

I have believed all my life in obeying the Law of the land as the church has said. However, I find much of this far too hypocritical. I will no longer will remain a member.

Real JEW | 10:05 a.m. Jan. 20, 2008

I think it is large mistake what the church is doing and as a Jew I would never agree. I do not have the right to really voice my opinion on LDS laws. Although, me and my family as true legal Americans of 2 generations, do not enjoy the many illegals in this country. We do not enjoy freeloaders. We as a family have had to work extremely hard for what we have. Nothing has ever come free to us. However, the Jewish culture is much different than that of Mexican culture.

numskull | 10:46 a.m. Jan. 20, 2008

provojoe said "The Book of Mormon says that no one will come to this country unless they are led here by God."

Huh? Where's that? Where does the Book of Mormon say that those who come to the United States of America (often from other countries in the Americas) are led here by God? It doesn't. You're probably thinking of 2 Nephi 1:6-7, where Lehi refers to "this land." Not "this country." I think most scholars agree that when Lehi made this prophecy he was in Central or South America, so if you want to correlate "this land" to a modern country, it wouldn't be the USA. More likely, Lehi means all of the Americas. If so, then many of the current illegal immigrants or their ancestors were already in the promised land, having been led there by God, before they crossed the border into the US in violation of US law.

Dawes | 10:57 a.m. Jan. 20, 2008

The LDS Church is NOT a law making branch of our government. And should stay out of it, especially if it is gong to start acting like a political institution like the Catholic Church has done in past history. Law makers should not even have to go talk to a special LDS committee.

numskull | 10:58 a.m. Jan. 20, 2008

I read the entire article, and found the title misleading. It comes down to the impressions and recollections of two legislators (Clark and Litvack) about the meeting and what they think LDS Church representatives meant. It's hard to tell how close what they said is to being a quote or just an impression. In fact, in one place Litvack is quoted as saying, "I interpreted what was said as . . ." The only actual statement reported to be from the Church is that it has "taken no position regarding currently proposed immigration legislation".

This is just lousy journalism, and it gives the impression, based on interpretations and impressions, that the Church is taking a position on immigration legislation, when the only real quote from the Church says otherwise. If the Church representatives did give that impression, then lets see some quotes and hear from more people present. Otherwise, I don't see how anyone can draw any conclusions.

St. George guy | 11:12 a.m. Jan. 20, 2008

Not allowing someone who has no legal right to be here, to get a job is just and humane. I have compassion for every one in prison for every crime. But christians need to remmember that God believes in justice too.

Randy | 11:26 a.m. Jan. 20, 2008

Maybe the Church can pay for their healthcare - food stamps - ect ect. I know I am tired of my tax dollars doing it.

Fred | 11:35 a.m. Jan. 20, 2008

The lousy writing, headling writing and editing have opened a hornet's nest. Let's hear what the Church REALLY says on this issue - instead of through the filter that was applied by the "spokesman" and the "reporter". The article raises more questions than it answers. Are ILLEGALS welcome in the Church and in Utah? Should we humanely send ILLEGALS back to Mexico to build up their stakes there? Or does the church really believe that we should bend the "law of the land" and succor and nurture our poor ILLEGAL brethren? What part of obeying and sustaining the law should we disregard? This is BIG! Let's get the story right!

Movin out! | 11:54 a.m. Jan. 20, 2008

I can tell you right now, and as well having a very large family, and paying full tithing, IT will now end! To fund illegals in our LDS faith is out of the question COMPLETELY. I have a tendency to agree with Family of 7 above. Thanks but know thanks! I cannot tolerate hypocrisy of any kind! I work my darn and my fingers to the bone and have always been supportive. But no longer!!

Sort of Skeptical | 11:59 a.m. Jan. 20, 2008

With regard to the LDS church meeting with the Utah State Legislature I suppose they have a right to do so. However, with 80% of the legislature being LDS, and the LDS culture, if not doctrine, stating that the church leaders are to be obeyed without question leads to some serious questions about the separation of church and state in Utah.

Some poster's incessant "traffic ticket" analogies to violating a country's territorial laws are specious at best. I suppose extortion, embezzlement, and burglary are also comparable to doing 50 in a 45 MPH speed zone.

The argument that illegal immigrants are not treated "humanely" enough is ridiculous!!! Where else but the United States can an illegal immigrant get free health care, free schooling, and endless appeals (all paid by our tax dollars) so they cannot be deported. Of course, Utah adds driverï¿½s licenses and in-state college tuition benefits (how did that happen????).

Bottom line is the Utah State legislature should perform its sworn duty and represent the desires of the vast majority of Utahns and aid in the deportation of illegal aliens. That is what the citizens of Utah and the nation want, not a thinly disguised "amnesty".

insane | 2:10 p.m. Jan. 20, 2008

The "church" cant even cover up their lies anymore. YES they meet with state officials and tell them how to vote, and YES this is agianst everything that America stands for. Please get a clue LDS and stay out of our policy. I cant wait until Utah finally decides to enter the union.

Larry B | 2:13 p.m. Jan. 20, 2008

Massive mind-blowing illegal immigration is destroying this nation before our very eyes. This is not a time to "step back and take a deep breath". This is a time to take immediate action to confront an invasion that is surging rapidly and threatening our citizenship, sovereignty, and rule of law. It is a time to put pandering and quisling politicians feet to the fire so they will be forced to secure our borders and enforce immigration laws in the workplace and in our jails and prisons while there is still time.

delquattro | 3:41 p.m. Jan. 20, 2008

As a LDS, I would hope that the church is suggesting that the human lives it is concerned with are the Americans'. Afterall, it is their country, their republican government, their standard of living, their hospitals and their constitution. BTW, does the church still endorse the 12th Article of Faith?

Georgia | 6:36 p.m. Jan. 20, 2008

The LDS Church is just after the numbers and the Tithing dollars that comes with fast growth. They are a business, and their stance on immigration is a reflection of their business interests. A majority of their membership growth comes from Latinos, so they want to support an immigration policy that enables their ambitious Latino growth.

And what do you think Mitt Romney will do about immigration? You bet he will push for policies that help his church become even larger and grow faster, regardless of the impact on the US economy or security issues or healthcare meltdowns in border states...

Watch out! The corruption of the ancient Christian Church happened just like this!

RE: Church Position | 7:10 p.m. Jan. 20, 2008

A letter dated 29 Jan 2007, given to legislators the night before the bill to end in-state tuition for illegal aliens died for the want of one vote.

Title: Statement on In-State Tuition For Undocumented Students

First paragraph:
"The Alliance for Unity today announced its unanimous opposition to HB 224, a proposal currently before the Utah legislature. The proposal would repeal current laws permitting undocumented students {read illegal aliens} who reside in Utah,...to pay in-state tuition {rates} at an institution of higher education in the State."

One of the many signers of this letter:

"M. Russell Ballard
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints"

Does anyone actually doubt the position of the church in respect to illegal aliens? I don't!

Anonymous | 7:39 p.m. Jan. 20, 2008

There in never going to be a Great Wall of America. There is never going to be a purging of millions of Mexicans.
It is cost prohibited and our country is near bankrupt funding the Bush Doctrine's perpetual war.

DahktaD | 7:41 p.m. Jan. 20, 2008

Between Organized Religion, Democrats, Republicans, and the politically correct leftist/special interest groups, the once Great United States of America, will become a socialist, third world nation within 25 years...unless true patriots of the US do something about it. First vote the spineless politicians out of office and replace them with politicians who swear to uphold and ABIDE by the US Constitution; 2nd, personal religious freedom is one thing, organized, non taxpaying 'religious' institutions should not be allowed ANY influence with US or State law.

LDS | 7:48 p.m. Jan. 20, 2008

The immigrants are not illegal, they are Lamanites and LDS and they are the rightful owners of this land. We are the illegals, just read your book of mormon and appreciate the kindnss of the book of mormon people in permiting us to live here.

Bobby | 9:19 p.m. Jan. 20, 2008

Comments are monitored.Any comment found to be "abusive", "offensive", ...........,

So many blog sites have this statement or a version of it. These restrictions reveal some kind of agenda by the blog site. It is utterly against the Western tradition of having a free exchange of ideas between the citizenry. It is censorship, Soviet, communist, nazi, style--no matter what excuses you use for it. Thus we can see the slow, creeping, corruption of the internet with regards to "free speech".

Experienced Immigrant IV | 1:00 a.m. Jan. 21, 2008

I have an answer to the problem as it is and I speak from first hand experience as my wife is from Peru and here legally. What needs to happen is that there needs to be a window of time where we tell all illegals here that they must register and be identified. We provide a non-threatening incentive for them to step forward to where they're not threatened that they'll be deported. We give a window of time to document and account for the illegal population. A deadline is put in place and from the deadline forward any undocumented person found in the U.S. is deported. I'm simplifying a much more complex problem but in essence the government can't expect people to step forward and submit"I'm illegal deport me", nor has the government provided sufficient or has it been responsible in regards to deportation (nor should it break up families) - what it needs to do is to provide a window whereby the illegals themselves can help resolve the problem themselves and whereby they have incentive to do so and to be honest. Dis-honest are then sent home and the sifting happens.

Cherilyn | 1:51 a.m. Jan. 21, 2008

Humanity cuts both ways. Illegal aliens stole my car. The eerie details of the incident terrorized both me and my daughter for two weeks before the car was miraculously found.

As the legislature defines what "humanity" means, I hope they will remember that those willing to come illegally are probably not the kind of citizens we want. The police department handling my case told me that the overwhelming majority of crimes in Utah are committed by illegals.

Romney's got the right idea on compassion: Give illegals already here time to get their affairs in order and then compassionately give them a second chance to come back in legally by getting in line.

Teddy Roosevelt made it clear that they must learn to speak English before they are admitted. That would be an excellent definition of compassion because they will be better prepared to be hired in higher paying jobs to support their families.

As for the Book of Mormon stating that everyone that comes to America is led by God: I'm not so sure the Book of Mormon had in mind the terrorists we've allowed to illegally breach our borders and kill innocent husbands, wives, mothers, fathers, sons and daughters.

Sleepless in Ohio | 4:21 a.m. Jan. 21, 2008

It's so relieving that I live in a Gentile state where I can sit back and laugh at those who have such a hard time with lobbyists. Go to Rhode Island or Massachusetts and you'll see tons of Men of the Cloth in their black shirts and pants mingling with Legislators. It's no different for Utah or the LDS Church. Stop crying.

Anonymous | 7:29 a.m. Jan. 21, 2008

Uh-Oh!
Methinks somebody is stumping for more converts.

About Lamanites | 7:31 a.m. Jan. 21, 2008

Message from LDS above indicates the illegals are Lamanites. Perhaps we should include DNA testing before legalization. If they pass the tribe of Joseph test, they can stay. Otherwise, they don't. Sound OK to you? If you insist they are Lamanites, read 3 Ne 20 beginning at about verse 15 to see what's in store for the infidel Gentiles. Let's stick with the "obey the laws of the land", shall we?

russ | 7:49 a.m. Jan. 21, 2008

to Experienced Immigrant IV: you are correct. with 12 million plus illegals we are not going to ship them all home to where ever by what ever means. So we have to create a more workable solution. You and I and others did not create this mess, but we have the brains to logically, humanely and legally solve it. Give illegals so many months to come forward, get documented, and then let them get back to their jobs, pay taxes this time, and move on. Those who choose not to, they get the boot when caught. I have no idea how many will step forward, but they will if the idea is thoroughly publicized, leaders step forward to endorse it, and the means are available to be documented. We have the technology and the brains to organize this. But do we have the compassion and logical constructs? Not yet. It takes leadership. I listed to Mitt try to alibi his way past it. He was depending on luck. McCain is trying. But leadership needs to say: big fence, big gate, and let's give people their last great chance to be freely documented.
Maybe the democrats will have this answer. Eh?

john | 8:17 a.m. Jan. 21, 2008

From the article:
"We communicated our policy ... The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has taken no position regarding currently proposed immigration legislation"

Gosh, I really wonder what was inside the ellipses?

Seems to me the LDS church EITHER "communicated their policy" OR they had "taken no position" the answer is obviously in the edited out portion of the quote. The double-speak is pure Orwellian.

Anonymous | 11:29 a.m. Jan. 21, 2008

Don't ya just LOVE how a Theocracy works?

SG | 12:07 p.m. Jan. 21, 2008

Sorry, but this article is quite confusing to me. I'm seeing some extreme double standards going on here. It doesn't intense my faith any. Thanks for the article... It makes me re-think everything I have been taught.

Taxman | 12:29 p.m. Jan. 21, 2008

If the lds church is going to have any type of influence or say in what laws should be passed (not that they don't already, hello zion curtain)....

I think it's due time they started paying taxes! This state could greatly benefit from taxing the billions of dollars they generate each year.

Robin | 1:00 p.m. Jan. 21, 2008

The laws of our land should be upheld. The current law on the books reads if you are in the country illegally you are to be deported. Come to this country LEGALLY. The law protects all who are in the U.S. LEGALLY.

ediddy | 2:21 p.m. Jan. 21, 2008

This is so late into the discussion that I doubt it will get printed or read, but I suggest that those who have turned this, as usual, into a bash the LDS church session, or a church and state issue, should go back and read the original sunbmission. 1st, who is blind enough here to think that no other church or social organization sits down with legislative representatives before legislative sessions. Jews, Catholics, various independent and collective Protestants etc, all have representatives that meet with legislative leaders on a wide variety of issues of importance to them. That the article specifically mentions LDS leaders, does not mean they had exclusive access. 2nd, there is no mention that the LDS church advocated the abrogation of the "law of the land", only that it ouight to be remembered that even illegal immigrants are human beings and that compassion ought to play a role in decision making. Please tell me why an organization of any kind would not advocate the compassionate treatment of its members, even those who have broken the law? 3rd, Where does ripping on someone else or their church, club, wealth or whatever, ever increase your stature one iota?

Shelly | 3:13 p.m. Jan. 21, 2008

RE ediddy,
Perhaps you are missing the point as well. People like you are partly the problem. As far as bashing going on here looks like you have joined the crowd. Everyone has a reason to comment. I believe as others on have written on here, about obeying the law of the land including church authorities. Read the 12th article of faith.

ediddy | 4:23 p.m. Jan. 21, 2008

Shelly,
I've bashed no one, am well versed in the "12th article of faith", and wonder what your point is or why I am part of the problem? I simply maintain that this has become a chat room instead of an ongoing commentary on the original point of the original article. The commentary so often devolves into the same old slams that it loses cognitive objectivity. I do not believe the DS church has violated the law in meeting with legislative entities to voice it's opinion. If legislative representatives would spend a little more time listening to their constituents, singly or collevtively, from any and all interests, maybe we'd get more from government than we now do. Rather than rag on the LDS church, perhaps the those of differing interests would be better served to lobby their own cause. Others do, and if you don't think so, you're not paying attention. UEA, Eagle Forum, ACLU, Sierra Club to name only a few.

Fredd | 5:01 p.m. Jan. 21, 2008

My guess is when catholiics lobby the massachusets government they are not speaking with authority as much as informing. In the LDS culture it is expected the membership will obey when leadership speaks. When is the last time someone voted not to sustain the bishop in their ward? When the church had a letter read directing members to oppose same sex marriage a BYU professor wrote an op-ed opposing the church position. He was fired for disagreeing with the church. add the 80% plus majority in Utah state legislature and the church will get what it wants even if the indidual legislators disagree with church policy, We elect the legislator with an expectation of their votes. Not the votes of the first presidency.

Shelly | 8:43 p.m. Jan. 21, 2008

RE ediddy,
Illegal immigrates are law breakers. As for me, I don't plan to pamper, hinder or egg on the problem. Supporters of law breakers are no better than the law breaker. Lets practice what we preach here! Live by-- and sustain all the laws of the land... No excuses!

jfrazier | 9:21 p.m. Jan. 21, 2008

Shelly,

You do have a point, but let me put say something that may take the edge off the obvious infraction of the law. I, like you, believe that laws should be enforced. However, let's suppose that we are discussing the penalty phase of the crime in question. Do you not agree that there is a range of penalties with various degrees of harshness? Say that your son breaks a curfew law and this is his only infraction? Should he spend a month in jail? That is too harsh and I am sure you would agree. I think what is being said here is that these are otherwise very good people (okay, not all, but most) we are dealing with here so the punishment should fit the crime and how justice is applied should be done appropriately.

As a member of the LDS religion I believe that laws provide order to society and without enforcement there is anarchy. Justice must be served, but it must be appropriate. I think the church leaders are just cautioning against mob mentality as opposed to thoughtful reasoning and putting things in proper perspective.

sammy | 10:02 p.m. Jan. 21, 2008

I agree with Shelly.

I say send them packing. They chose to break our laws to come here. So they need to leave on their own without force if possible. Nobody is getting violent here. The illegals, however, have brought violence with them, along with breaking many of our laws. I have no compassion for ID, murdering people, thievery nor violence. We as Americans just simply want these people to leave by word.

If my kid was causing trouble to the point of being in jail no matter how much I would hate it then so be it...what are my choices? NONE!!

RE: Russ - | 10:57 p.m. Jan. 21, 2008

I was discussing this solution with my father. I'll submit as well that with modern technology I'd think that some type of lazer fence of somekind that detects traffic would be much quicker and more efficient to use than a physical big fence - (although I know a big, physical, literal fence has been proposed etc.) - - - To any deportation Nazi's out there though, it's just un-realistic to somehow change things from how they are now (and that's that ICE - "Immigrations and Customs Enforcement") won't do anything until you have proof of someone's illegal immigration status. What incentives are there for anyone who associates with the public to go around narking on illegals and who has the time or heart for it? - It must be a negotiation rather than a dictatorial process where force is used, and the solution to the problem must come from those who have caused it. As it is in many ways the USCIS i.e. says, "come to the U.S. legally or don't come at all" but in the same breath they make it nearly impossible for some to come at all. My sister in law was one.

Jay | 4:41 a.m. Jan. 22, 2008

This is a poorly written article. Where are the "editors" at DMN?

Shelly | 6:07 a.m. Jan. 22, 2008

The problem with criminals (illegals) is that they don't seem to reason as that of a normal thinking person. So this means it make take force to get them out of this country, and to take their crime and drugs along with them. It's supporters and people like 10:06 pm who are part of the problem.

Neo-Nazis | 6:43 a.m. Jan. 22, 2008

I see the immigration issue has stirred up our Neo-Nazi Mormons on this blog.
These conservatives truly are a wonder to behold, aren't they?
Now I know what it must have been like in Nazi Germany when the same type of people wanted to round up everyone they didn't like.
A nasty people they are indeed.

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