Deseret News | Lawmakers, LDS Church brainstorm

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Lawmakers, LDS Church brainstorm

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Paul | 1:01 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

I think that immigration is a sensitive issue, but immigrants should have the opertunity to come into the U.S.A if they can fill jobs,i think the stance on immigration on the American continent is too strong, it should be like most of Europe were people are allowed to move freely between countries.

happened to be born in america | 1:11 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

I think if any of us were born in a country where we couldn't make enough money to support our family even with an education, couldn't trust the police or receive protection from them, but knew that across the border we could work hard and be safer with our families, I think we would probably jump the border too. It's easier to take it for granted just because you happen to be born a little further north. That's the human element. Certainly there has to be regulation, but these are still people whose motives are not so hard to understand as we pretend. Sure, there is some criminal element, but anyone who believes that those make up the majority is being purposefully ignorant to the facts. I think if you're standing in a picket line next to minutemen and members of the ku klux klan or skinheads then you should probably reexamine your stance on illegal immigration.

Park City Resident | 1:18 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

It's one thing to be compassionate, quite another to totally disregard the law of the land and ignore illegal immigration into our state. Seems that nearly every crime news story now involves a hispanic perpetrator. I reject the notion that all of these people are peace loving folks just here for a better life. Just take a look at the 10 most wanted on Parks City's own police website. Also remember all of those Utah citizens killed at the hand of hispanic violence due to gangs or drunk driving (remember the Ceran family).

Compassion is a warm bus ride back to Mexico!

Comments continue below

Disgusted | 1:21 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Translation of "Humane Treatment" = keep the illegals here and maybe, as Oren Hatch proposes, send their kids to college on taxpayers money.

This is the most serious problem in this country today and aiding and abetting the illegals is beyond stupid.

Frank | 1:24 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

I must say that I agree to any proposal, comment, article, etc. that asks us to treat all people as humans?

RE: To Phebe, | 1:27 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

May I ask the poster: What is YOUR problem? You post drivel like that and have the nerve to call anyone *else* bigoted? Shame on you. You want to know who's making the church look bigoted--take a good, hard look in your mirror. Sheesh!

Anonymous | 1:27 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Whenever there's a letter to the editor about immigration, the comments section lights up such hateful rhetoric, it's hard to believe its coming from fellow Utahns. That church leaders have asked our representatives to tone it down seems also to have toned down the invective here. Good for them. I've said this here before, but immigrant laborers pay do pay taxes and receive few services. Of those of you who want all these people to get in line, tell me where is that line. It doesn't exist. Our immigration policy is out of date. The numbers do not reflect reality.

Anonymous | 1:42 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

You can thank the conservatives for all of the hatred hurled at their fellow human beings.
It's the times we live in.
A nasty, nasty lot are the conservatives.

Another from AZ | 1:44 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

I second the other from AZ.
LDS leaders could you pass on the message about being humane about immigration laws to state Rep. Russell Pearce? He is a member of the church and as a LDS I am embarrassed when non-members friends ask me if all the mormons feel the same about immigration.

Missing the Point | 1:48 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Are people too busy bashing on "Bob" to read each others' posts? The key issue here is NOT whether the Church turns a blind eye to illegal immigration and obedience to laws (untrue, OK?). The key issue is whether we ourselves have the human decency to find a humane solution to this problem. That's what the church supports. Period.

Those of you who support mass deportations of all illegals--why don't you just build the concentration camps while you're at it? Those of you making noise about some alleged cultural conquest--back up the conspiracy-theory truck a few miles, will ya? North American culture isn't about to be torn apart by people trying to make a better life for themselves and their families. And people blaming immigrants for crime--some illegals do commit misdemeanors and felonies, yes. Punish THAT group severely. Keep out the Mexican drug gangs and foreign terrorists as we value our lives, too. But the vast majority of crime is committed by people who've been life-long Americans. Many crimes would happen WITHOUT illegal immigration.

Bottom line: Don't turn a land of liberty and opportunity into a police state--or worse--over xenophobia and bigotry. Be humane, decent, and charitable.

Mormon4ever | 1:59 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

"Let us be more merciful. Let us get the arrogance out of our lives, the conceit, the egotism. Let us be more compassionate, gentler, filled with forbearance and patience and a greater measure of respect one for another. In so doing, our very example will cause others to be more merciful, and we shall have greater claim upon mercy of God who in His love will be generous toward us." President Gordon B. Hinckley

Romney Stance | 2:08 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Romney has taken a very tough stance as to dealing with illegals. Mike Huckaby promote a "Kind and Gentle" approach which is similar to the LDS Church stance of "Humane and Compassionate Treatment".

The problem is that 90% of the LDS members support Romney and his stance where only 10% support Huckaby and the LDS Church. The church leaders need to take a second look at their meddling in the affairs of government.

Jorge Ramos | 2:21 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Do the Utah state congressional leaders meet with the LDS hierarchy every year? Is there any other state in the Union where this happens? What in the name of dog has happened to the separation of church and state in Utah. BTW LDS, and the follows of this cult, wants the ILLEGAL ALIEN slave laborers because they and their ILK can profit off the backs of these peons. Isn't that what mormonism is all about? Accumulate for the next life?

Eric | 2:26 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Most of the comments already posted are in vain, as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has not made a statement about immigration other than it does not take a position. We only have Mr. Litvack and Mr. Clark's interpretations of what the Church conveyed to them (although I agree with them and believe they are consistent with Church policy).
Anonymous and others have blamed conservatives for hatred towards our fellow human beings. General statements such as that create hatred in and of themselves. Consider and research the views of Ron Paul on immigration, a true conservative. His economic and foreign policies would bring economic stability to the countries form whence the illegals are coming (the most compassionate thing a country can do) and maintain the sovereignty of our country.

Undocumented ! ! ! | 2:45 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Talk about undocumented -- this blog is plastered with UNDOCUMENTED claims and theories, by Anonymous people. Will you show us where you get this stuff?

And many of you were TOLD "A-B-C", but HEARD "B-C-D", and don't seem to know the difference.

The LDS representatives are visible, with good track records. Who are you?

Then the "Church-owned" newspaper reported it, not covered it up. And gave you a forum to post your opinions from the sidelines. Where's the evil?

Emigration | 3:07 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Our son just spent his Christmas vacation in Mexico, with 82 other US students, each at their own expense, building basic homes for natives.

When he called home after just a couple of days, he had already seen firsthand why so many of the people there want to "emigrate" legally or not. The poverty, drugs, the corruption at all levels of government, lack of opportunity, crime, cops on the take, and more crime, porn, lack of sanitation, poor education, etc., etc.

We're going back with them next vacation. The more sanitary homes and good opportunities we can help them build, the more they will want to stay and help others build a better life and better country, and the fewer will see a need to come north illegally.

And while this organization is not LDS, most of the youth who go are, acting on their faith.

The deranged are making an issue | 3:17 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Russ (7:57), "I don't live in Utah anymore, but I can tell you one thing. If that happened in my present state, the citizens would ask loudly and clearly: WHY????!!!??"

First, it is typical in most states for legislative leaders to meet with various representatives from Churches. For example, in Tennessee, "The diocesan leaders met with Gov. Bredesen at the conclusion of Day on the Hill, discussing many of the same issues with him." Just in case you are ignorant. The term Diosesan is a Catholic one and not Mormon. The main difference between legislative leaders meeting with representatives from the Public Affairs Department of the LDS Church in Utah and legislative leaders meeting with Church officials outside of Utah is that deranged people blow it out of context in Utah.

The ignorant feel to realize that every action taken by the legislative will have an impact on the Church and its members os they so they have every right to express their views just like the ACLU, the NRA, NAACP, Sierra Club, etc has the right to meet with legislators and have their views heard. It's not reasonable for any Church to be quiet on things affecting them.

Give it a rest nutjobs | 3:32 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Jorge Ramos, yes it does happen in other states. In fact, the majority of state legislatures meet with Church leaders and representatives from most major religions and there are even days when Muslim leaders (gasp) will meet with members of the Legislature. Your ignorance of what they are talking about in the article indicates your lack of knowledge about what happens in a legislature.

For example, an article in Post-Standard of (Syracuse, New York) titled "Bishop and Legislators to discuss public policy" stated "Moynihan and other Roman Catholic leaders from New York are expected to meet with legislators..." Do you get it yet. Every Church has its special affairs or lobbying arm because there are issues which affect that Church which they like to bring to the attention of legislators.

Routinely during legislative sessions organizations will meet with legislators to discuss their interests and the interests of their members whether that organization is a Church or the Sierra Club. This is a basic concept of democracy that you seem to know understand. Maybe taking a High School civics class might benefit you and dispel the ignorance.

Idaho Kid | 3:33 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

It has been intresting to note the comments that have been made on this simple statement. To show a little more compasion towards others. What's wrong with that? It seems like some people just have a deep seated need to hate something. If it's not the Mormon Church, or something a Church official says, They are going to find something else to hate. Just think of it. How would it be to go through life hating one thing or another. What a waste.

Fredd | 3:49 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

The difference in Utah is that the state motto is "Follow the Bretheren". And the state song is "Praise the Man". If the Church proclaimed the driving age must be raised to 18 you'd see a bill and a substantial following for no other reason then the church wants it.

Anonymous | 4:05 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Any measure to humanize the plight of poor fellow human beings trying to survive, is a good thing.

Anything to counter the onslaught of the Nazi-like hatred directed towards today's new scapegoats (The Mexicans), is the Christian thing to do.

DahktaD | 4:13 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

These country is NOT run by theogracy, but the LDS, Catholics, Methodist are determined to run this country by their prospective pulpits. Our immigration problems are hampered by these theologists who insist laws written by congress, that the citizens of this country demanded, are ignored, disobeyed, or made a mockery of. Like the lady in Chicago, ILLEGAL, who hid a catholic church for a year with the complicity of the church protecting her! I am fed up with churches getting into the middle of what is good for the country and what the taxpaying citizens DEMAND from our government. If the churches insist on input, then their tax exempt status should be immediately revoked!

I'm just saying | 4:15 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Who were the first illegal immigrants in Utah? That's right, the Mormon pioneers. Utah belonged to Mexico all those years ago. Keeping that in mind might help us have more compassion for the current round of illegal aliens trying to make a better life for themselves, just like my ancestors did 150+ years ago.

Anonymous | 4:26 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

The cost to identify, single out, round-up, prosecute, and transport millions of people, (at taxpayers expense) is cost prohibited.
Aren't you illegal-haters paying attention to the economy?

Bobby | 4:28 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

TO: "I'm just Saying" Try selling your compassion to the families of people illegals have murdered or otherwise violated! If you feel so guilty about the Mormon Settlers civilizing Utah then perhaps you should go live in Mexico so you could feel better.

DahktaD | 4:30 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

I also find in amusing about the proclaimation of being humane. What bunch of hypocrits! What about the honest business owner who obeys the law by NOT hiring illegals, but looses his business to one who does because that corrupt church going buiness owner HIRES illegals to under bid honest competitors?! Or our rising violent crime problem with illegals and their gangs?! Or our hospitals, schools, public services are maxed out due to illegal immigration?! We are a country of immigrants...LEGAL IMMIGRANTS! All the church is doing is making an excuse for amnesty...how dare the church try to influence our lawmakers to try swing things the "church's way". But then they will get their way since religious bias is used in this state to elect mormons only.

Today's Youth | 4:41 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

People, illegal immigration is bad. It's ruining our country's future. Instead of funding something like a cure for cancer, we are funding people who shouldn't even be here. They give them privileges like tutors when they should just be in Mexico or wherever they came from. Schools are now forcing students to learn Spanish when the funding could go toward something else. The 'No Child Left Behind' program is slowing classes down for people (like illegals) who can't catch up, ruining chances for smart kids who are ahead even more. Nobody should be supporting this catastrophe.

Humane? | 4:50 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

I wish the church would take into account that the victims of illegal aliens are also human. Whether you've been raped, had your identity stolen or been involved in an accident with an illegal without insurance, there are real victims out there.

Reading between the lines, it appears that the church is implying that if any of the anti-illegal bills pass, the church will consider those lawmakers to be demonizers of illegals.

I say we treat illegals with utmost respect and human dignity as we round them up and invite them to return home. If they refuse we can politely escort them. That's our right.

Today's Youth | 4:55 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Even if they're not supposed to be here, we can be nicely send them back to their country. Having illegals stay here and have a low-income job is NOT the answer.

Clarity | 5:11 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Stop and think about who the audience is here. The Church is not advocating the violation of existing laws. It is addressing the makers of future laws, not the enforcers of current laws. Remember the three branches of government? Shaping the direction of laws that may in the future be drafted is quite different from advocating the violation of existing laws.

AZ resident | 5:22 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

The immigration issue is one complex, heart-breaking, frustrating struggle for many--politicians, Christians, tax-payers, citizens, legal immigrants and illegal immigrants. As one who has seen an entire neighborhood lose its culture, the neighborhood school lose all anglo children, and the crime rate soar, racism rears its ugly head. Racism, however, is NOT the issue. People make choices. Those adults and parents who chose to enter illegaly must expect to pay consequences. Were they honesly expecting to forge documents, steal ID's, and forge social security numbers forever? Did they really expect the city, state, and federal social services to support them and their children? The tenets of civilized behavior include abiding by the laws of the land.

Hmmm | 5:39 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

I thought the "Church" did not involve itself in politics. See why some of us are scared of Romney

dean | 6:00 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

I believe in treating all humans fairly, showing the same compassion for all. I do wonder why there can be two sets of standards for those who come here illegally and those who choose to obey the laws of the land. How can we send illegals to the temple when they have disobeyed a law?

Don't tell me who to hire tyrant | 6:02 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

DahktaD, Churches have every right to insist that they have a voice in a government that affects them. If you don't want a Church to have a say then make sure that none of your damn laws apply to the Church. You think being tax exempt is such a great thing but it's not when the laws of the land still apply to you.

How dare you say that the people affected by your vote and the laws passed by legislatures are wrong for speaking out. That is their right and that is the right of every organization that is affected by the laws of this country and anything less then that is tryannical. You are a dictator who wants the Church to obey the laws but have no sayin those laws. That proves to me that you are horrible person and your hateful comments need to be responded to.

I agree completely that we are a country of legal immigrants and therefore think the laws passed by people like you should be repealed and these illegal immigrants should be legal while you can shut up and mind your own families business and not mine.

Hmmm is a tryant | 6:10 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Hmmm, the Church has repeatedly stated that they do not get involved in politics which means they don't support specific candidates or political parties but the Church will maintain its right to speak out on issues that affect the Church and its members like every Church maintains. This isn't the same as getting involved with politics instead it's getting involved in government which is a huge difference.

But of course you believe the Church should just shut up and obey the laws of the United States while not having any say in them because you think this is a country where Churches are subject to the state but have no say. You feel that they should obey the laws but not have a say in them. You think they should keep their mouth shut, mind their own business and honor and obey the laws passed by our country but not have a say. You and those like you are tryants and people need to condemn you for it.

If good people don't speak out then people like you will win and entire organizations will have to obey our laws while not having a right to speak on them.

Latino | 6:13 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Thank you LDS Church!! Very nice way to address this very important issue. I hope Rep. Glen Donnelson and other Lawmakers realize that thier statements are as close of an endorsement for immigration reform. Don't forget its the "element of humanity" that we must take into account. The Utah Minuteman and their supporters need to be reminded of this important principle.

Religious freedom gives us right | 6:18 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

The best comment on this issue is "In a democracy that is free and robust, an opinion is no more disqualified for being ï¿½religiousï¿½ than for being atheistic, or psychoanalytic, or Marxist, or just plain dumb. There is no legal or constitutional question about the admission of religion to the public square; there is only a question about the free and equal participation of citizens in our public business. Religion is not a reified ï¿½thingï¿½ that threatens to intrude upon our common life. Religion in public is but the public opinion of those citizens who are religious. As with individual citizens, so also with the associations that citizens form to advance their opinions. Religious institutions may understand themselves to be brought into being by God, but for the purposes of this democratic polity they are free associations of citizens. As such, they are guaranteed the same access to the public square as are the citizens who comprise them."

Those of you who have a problem with this are tyrants by nature and feel that Churches should have no say in the laws they must live under but still be bound to do so.

Experienced Immigrant III | 6:55 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

I'd again like to bring to attention the generosity of the people I know in Central and South America. I know of hundreds of families in Panama who worked extremely hard to have a temple in their country. Even though it's a smaller temple, their temple is a symbol of unspeakable sacrifice on their part. There isn't a temple in Central or South America that hasn't come into being without stories of tremendous devotion and honesty and testimony and good will. I'd submit the same for anywhere in the world. The church is a worldwide organization of brothers and sisters. In regards to immigration as far as I'm concerned it's like being on one side of the bedroom v.s. the other. One thing I would say to anyone immigrating to the U.S. from Central America is that there sure are a lot of natural resources you guys have down there that we don't have up here - in Utah at least -. We certainly don't have any beaches - especially this time of year. I'd wish the best for anyone, and we get more of that with being members of the church.

Carl | 7:09 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

If it means more "numbers" for the Church, they will rationalize around the law - then wink and nod and go forth and say there are higher laws!

Moap Box | 7:33 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

"LDS Church leaders have told legislative bosses"

These words made me cringe. Like nails on a chalkboard. Like all of my hairs stand on end. My stomach flip-flopped.

The FACT that "THE" COJCOLDS 'tells' our government ANYTHING sends me REELING. If "THE" COJCOLDS isnï¿½t going to lean one way or the other on an issue, officially, then why BOTHER.

It is soooo wrong.

A star should be removed from Our Flag. Utah doesnï¿½t deserve one.

russ | 7:38 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Not a new idea but a good one: illegal immigration? Legal immigration?

Big fence, big gate. Verify all who enter and who are already here. Toss back those who won't comply.

A nation without secure borders is not a nation. And a nation without a heart and soul, is not one worth living in. I love this country.

questions | 8:23 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Mormon leaders appear to be moving inexorably to the liberal side of the political spectrum. Who in church leadership is pushing "element of humanity."

That brings up the question of the humanity of illegal immigrants whose demands on our system from criminal, educational and welfare costs have become enormous. Not all American students can get state resident college tuition as some states allow for illegals.

Precisely what does "element of humanity" mean. It appears that the statement is primarily directed at Hispanics as most of the comments in this stream shows, when in fact, illegal immigration spans a wide swath of ethnicities.

Some more facts | 8:37 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Corrupt governments in the world have over 5 BILLION people living in them. Are you willing to accept them all? Just how much do you believe that the U.S. citizen taxpayer can afford? Our economy is already in the toilet!

Have you seen the problems of the California budget? IT is rapidly approaching impossible to resolve. The governor just proposed a huge decrease is EVERY state function. It was 10% across the board. What do you think would happen to our education system if we did the same? It IS coming if we do not deal with the problem of overloading our schools with the children of illegal immigrants who are NOT here legally.

We had a state audit that determined that the cost of illegal immigration to our education system was at least 58 million, perhaps as much as 85 million - or more. Which one of you pro-illegal alien folks are willing to pick up the tab for these people?

Betrayed | 8:39 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Deal with the issue "humanely"? I'm sorry, but what's "inhumane" about denying illegal immigrants driver's licenses? What's "inhumane" about denying illegal immigrants in-state tuition? What's inhumane about denying them bank accounts or bank loans or public education or birthright citizenship or fining employers who hire them?

This isn't about treating illegals "inhumanely." This is the LDS Church acknowledging what many of us have long suspected: that they are fully in favor of illegal immigration. Two reasons, I suspect: one is baptism arbitrage - a member baptized in Latin America who moves here illegally is far more likely to remain a member and will pay a whole lot more in tithing over the long haul.

The other is that so many of the Church's richest members benefit financially from illegal immigration: the Ivorys, the Marriotts, the Holdings, the Peerys, the Fultons, etc. The LDS Church has always taken a special view of its rich members.

Another thing I'd like to know: when the Church speaks out in support of "right-wing" causes (anti-abortion, etc.) the leftists in this state are quick to jump on the "separation of church and state." Why are they so quiet now?

Alan | 9:00 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Amazing, I am not a mormon and I am not here to defend your church, but some of you that criticize the LDS church need to chill. I have lived in NC,Texas, Mo., and Az,you can bet your sweet arse that other religions make trips to their legislators to make sure that they know what their positions are. the Church of God in Mo. The Baptist in Texas,and NC, and yes the Catholic church in Arizona they all do. You are naive to think otherwise.

dave 4197 | 9:33 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Glad to hear the LDS Church is speaking out against the ugliness of the immigration debate. We certainly need more compassion for our fellow human beings. Utah should be an example of this. I have written several posts in the DesMoNews, and in the SLTrib, consistently pointing out that we are a wealthy people, and we can afford to help those poor among us.
We need to invest our money and our time in helping our poor neighbors, by hiring them in good jobs, by educating them and their children in our schools, and by investing in building their economy in Mexico. People's quality of life is more important than an arbitrary line on a map. It's less expensive than many think.

To Just Saying | 9:39 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Actually, since the U.S. Mexican War was in progress during the first Mormon migration to the mountains, Utah actually belonged to the U.S. (rightly or wrongly) by the time the Mormons arrived.

Timing is everything!!

Thoughts of J. Lennon | 10:18 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Here's some thoughts about
people getting along:

Imagine all the people living for today

Imagine all the people living life in peace
Nothing to kill or die (and hate) for

Imagine all the people Sharing ALL the world
No need for GREED or HUNGAR

Imagine a Brotherhood of Man

You may say I'm a dreamer,
but I'm not the only one

Hope someday you'll join us
and the world will live as one...

Emil Stanstead | 10:37 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

I more or less agree with their position, but I also still have to say they've no business wading into the argument. Stay out of the legislature, congress, and the presidency. Our churches should be places of a doctrine common to believers. Our governments have to be places of doctrine common to most, if not all, citizens.

Jew | 11:14 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

The Mormons have all the right in the world to meet with politicians and whomever they want. All the whinners need to get a grip and go take a hike!

This is America, the land of the Free!!!

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