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Comments about ‘Lawmakers, LDS Church brainstorm’

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Published: Saturday, Jan. 19 2008 12:44 a.m. MST

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sage

I had an ancestor who helped free this land from Mexico. Go read about the Mormon Battalion. This part of Mexico was bought and paid for by Americans. it truly belongs to USA.

DahktaD

My good man Frazier, I see we are in agreement in total. Well said!

My dear Star, no I am not a holy one, just a resident heathen. But I do agree that our country is in "very big trouble", and Amercians do need to take action now. The question that confronts us all, is 'what' action do we take and 'how' do we go about doing it?

Star

RE: DahktaD,

Perhaps you and jfrazier can talk some sense into some of the people that read this site. There are some who just don't get it. I don't believe that the the church realizes the seriousness of this problem with the illegals. However, I could be wrong. I more or less just enjoy the reading. Keep up the good writing on here. I find it extremely interesting. I hope DN as well keeps this site.
It was good that you dropped the T heathen. It just wasn't working out...lol!

DhaktaD

My dear Star...to talk sense into one, they must be receptive to a differing point of view and have a moderate grasp of reality. I am remiss to report, the astounding level of prozac use in this fair state does have a detrimental effect, clouding the cognizant abilities of so many of the pulpit pundits.
I therefor result to consume a moderate amount of Chivas to be equaly clouded when having a discourse with those from the pulpit thereby equalizing the playing field, I dare say.

jfrazier

DahktaD,

When reasonable people (if we may be considered such) take the emotion out of things and discuss/debate things intelligently, agreements can certainly be reached. We never were really that far apart, however.

I find the whole right/left political debate on many issues comes down not to WHAT we want to acheive, but rather, HOW we aim to acheive it. That's where things get a bit tough.

As to Star's comment on the seriousness of the problem: even though, perhaps, the leadership may not view it as a big problem, rank and file members certainly do. All the conservative members of the church that I know (which is about ALL the members I know) are very concerned about this. However, since local LDS organizations are apolitical, there is not a mechanism to convey local political concerns up the chain of leadership. I am strictly speaking from my own perspective, mind you.

Wilkey

"When the Mormon pioneers arrived in the valley they were on Mexican soil. Just because the Mexican-American War was in progress when they arrived doesn't mean that the land wasn't Mexico's. The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, which ceded Utah to the US, was signed on February 2, 1848, well after the Saint's arrival."

The land was not Mexico's. Mexico had a claim on the land, and nothing else. It would be like me claiming to own the moon - irrelevant.

There were virtually no Mexican settlements in the ceded territories, including none at all in Utah. The Treaty of GH allowed Mexicans in ceded territories to remain and keep their lands - even so, the total population of California in 1850 was less than 100,000 people.

The US certainly stole land from the Indians - who are NOT Hispanic - but they did not steal it from Mexico.

J. Smith

All the Church was saying folks is don't forget these immigrants are human beings. Never did they say they were in support of illegal immigration. The fact of the matter is that church policy states if an individual is an illegal immigrant they cannot be baptized a member of the church, until everything is worked out.

Star

DhaktaD & jfrazier,
About people on prozac, I believe they are numbed by its effect. The drug is spiritually disabling to those who take it. They become non-caring. I believe this is what prozac was meant to do. It makes me think though, that this is what has caused much of the blindness and coldness among people here.

The illegal problem is just another episode of what happens from the numbing of ones brain function, and to many people run church and government who take the drug. Sadly, Utah members are the biggest victims of abuse. Drugs are drugs. Medically prescribed or bought simply off the street. The illegals prefer the streets, and bring them here to survive.

Be Compassionate

The LDS Church is not trying to influence law makers or the laws they pass. A meeting is something between two parties. They didn't go there looking to be told what laws to pass and they weren't. Rather, they were given good sound advise that all of us need to follow it sounds like. Have compassion. Remember those people who are affected by these laws are infact human beings. They are not second rate citizens. Illegal immigration is a huge problem in the U.S. but to date the way these laws are being carried out has been ludicrous in many cases seperating a child from his/her parents. Let's take a look at how we can be fair, just, and compassionate.

Funky Monkey

re: Wilkey,

I suppose you could as well write that the European Conquistadors, who were as well from Spain, also stole the land from Mexico, and all of the rest of south America. However, I believe God gave the earth to all human beings who dwell upon. Humans have always moved around and about on this earth, invading the lands of others. That will never change. Nonetheless, lets stick to the illegal problem of the day. It is not going to get any better if people can't abide by laws.

Capt., Crunch

to: J Smith

Maybe the church should as well advise these illegals if they are aware of it to go home. They need to make that clear with members. If they claim to be true believers, then sustaining the 12th article of faith is part of it. Don't you think?

Huh?

Be Compassionate,

Give me a break. You make it sound like the illegals don't have a brain in their heads. Therefor we should feel compassion for them breaking our laws?...ummmmm??? Somehow that is the silliest thing that I have ever heard. I hope you are kid and not an adult with that kind of thinking.

sodie

Re: "Who will run the dairies, mow our lawns, and do whatever manual labor we as a society have grown acustom to? You might notice the economy is trouble. This will make it much worse."

It wasn't very long ago that I was in college and was mowing lawns, doing landscaping, hanging drywall and even working as a housekeeper to pay my way through school. How could getting people to work their way through school instead of getting themselves deep into debt be bad for the economy? How could stopping the vast amounts of cash from being wired south of the border be bad for the economy? Right now they are talking about further nonsense of printing more money as a 'stimulous package' rather than looking at why we have a problem to begin with. How could having a decrease on welfare, school, healthcare demands in this country be bad for the economy? The country simply has too look at the total cost of this 'cheap' labor. They aren't saving as much as they think.

Anonymous

Let me get this straight -
If they become legal, they can STILL be exploited, right?

Anonymous

"The LDS Church is not trying to influence law makers or the laws they pass. A meeting is something between two parties. They didn't go there looking to be told what laws to pass and they weren't."

Yep - the LDS Church just happened to decide to have a meeting with lawmakers, right before the legislative session. And, of course, they weren't at all trying to influence policy.

Spare me.

Capt., Crunch

They just need to get their acts together and go through the proper channels to become a American citizen. It seems we are all back to the same old feel sorry for illegals game on here.

Although, until they learn to keep the American laws, which are important to the well being of the USA, they will only exploit their own people. Sad, but the truth of the matter lies with them. Lets try to be honest in this country. Compassion will follow.

Anonymous

Is it okay for undocumented Mexican workers to help build the US version of the Great Wall of China?
I hear they work very cheap.

Anonymous

It seems to me the LDS church's primary concern is to humanize the problem for those who can go further than see undocumented workers as "illegals."
It's the same thing the far-right has done in demonizing the word liberal.

Anonymous

"It seems to me the LDS church's primary concern is to humanize the problem for those who can go further than see undocumented workers as 'illegals.'"

No, the LDS Church's primary concerns are to:

1) Boost membership numbers. Since English-speaking Americans aren't joining anymore they need illegals.

2) Bring converts form Latin America, where inactivity rates are low and they pay almost nothing in tithing, to the US, where they'll pay in tithing and are more likely to stay active.

3) Make life hunky-dory for rich church members like the Ivorys, Fultons, Marriotts, Peerys, and Holdings, who all benefit financially from high rates of immigration and cheap labor.

4) To piggyback on the cause du jour. They missed the boat by about 2 decades on the last one (civil rights) and they don't want to get blindsided again. They think amnesty for illegal immigrants is the moral equivalent of civil rights for black Americans. Well, they're wrong.

BIG Tithe Payer

WOW, Anonymous 7:14

You look like you are in the know of things. I would have to AGREE with you 100% on what you have said here. I know quite a few people in the church who have similar views who are as well active members of the church. This is all so very true!
I wondering what the future holds for my religion. It's really starting to lose faith with many people. Or as they would put it, we are losing the faith...Ok whatever.

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