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Comments about ‘Lawmakers, LDS Church brainstorm’

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Published: Saturday, Jan. 19 2008 12:44 a.m. MST

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DahktaD

Ah Frazier...how do you compare a curfew violation with a violation of federal law? Whether you know it or not, most likely not, Title 8 USC 1325 clearly states the entry of a person into the US is in fact a crime, punishable with up to 6 months in jail...
And under your religious guidance, we are to simply ignor the illegal misdeeds, and give them permanent residence as a reward. Under your simplification by just allowing by-gones be by-gones, should the same attitude be held on the narco traffickers, human smugglers, terrorist who have enter the US illegally as well? Or is your mind so narrow as to think only Mexicans cross our borders illegally...rather racist of you, isn't it?
What I find remarkable in all this discourse about illegal immigration, is the blarring ignorance. Immediately when one mentions "illegal immigrant", all eyes move south to Mexico. Well, granted we do get quite a few from Mexico... but I wonder why China, Pakistan, Canada, India, Ivory Coast, Ireland, Germany, Iran, Russia, etc, just never seem to get on the radar screen? Look at the entirety of the problem, it is immense, and dangerous.

Shelly and Sammy

Do either of you ever speed? If so, you'd better turn yourselves in, demand a sentence of 15-20 years in prison, and fines of $500,000 for all the damage you did to society--both directly and indirectly. If not, congratulations for at least being partially consistent with your position. But maybe you'd better start advocating the death penalty for speeding to make yourselves FULLY consistent.

Come on, you two and all you in the "illegals are lawbreakers and deserve harsh punishment" mob. Don't you people recognize there are some violations of the law that are more serious than others? And that merely crossing into our country illegally is a less serious violation than many others on the books?

Now when illegal immigrants go on to commit far *worse* crimes, lock them up and throw away the key. As far as you can throw it! Fine with me! But part of being humane about illegal immigration is recognizing this: If entering the country illegally is your ONLY crime, and that you're just here to feed your family, you don't deserve the same punishment as a thief, rapist or murderer.

That, folks, is ALSO the rule of law!

Grandma C.

Why all the venom and hatred here?
The U.S. government is required to treat terrorists and war criminals in a humane manner. Church officials have suggested similar treatment for those who come to our country without the proper sanctions.
To declare all illegals criminals is hateful and unnecessary. And reflects poorly on the values of the one who perpetuates such thinking.

h

The Law-of-the-Landers aren't fooling anyone with their not-so-cleverly-disguised hatred for people different than them.
Nazi Germany also started off with legal reasons why some people in their midst should not be welcome.
History shows what happened with this xenophobic, racist mindset.

a bit of history

Between 1933 and 1934, Nazi law of the land was fairly moderate, not wishing to scare off voters or moderately-minded politicians (although the eugenics program was established as soon as July 1933). The Nazi Party used popular anti-semitism to gain votes. They blamed poverty, unemployment, and the loss of World War I all on the Jews and the left-wing. German woes were attributed to the effects of the Treaty of Versailles. In 1933, persecution of the Jews became active Nazi policy. It only became worse with the years, culminating in the Holocaust, or so-called Final Solution to the Jewish Problem, which was decided by Hitler during World War II and officialized at the January 1942 Wannsee Conference.

Sandy

Grandma C.... go watch your grand kids. they need you.

To anonymous 8:16 who always goes without a name on here. You are constantly saying chomping on the same old issue over and over again. Your behavior is biased and races. If you happen to be an illegal, I suggest that you leave this country and take your speeding and hit run car with you. ILLEGALS ARE LAW BREAKERS!!!!

jfrazier

DahktaD,

Wow, you make some very large leaps in your logic that are completely unfounded. Your twisted logic and exagerations are exactly what the religious leaders are cautioning against. Take a breath and relax and perhaps you will start to make sense with your ramblings.

I was just pointing out that the punishment should fit the crime. Jump to an extreme position on this if you want, but by doing so you quickly lose credibility. So do you propose we round up all illegal aliens, rough them up and lock them in our jails for six months, then deport them? I agree they ought to be deported expeditiously, but busting down doors and treating them the same as rapists, drug trafficers, etc. is a bit harsh considering in other respects they may be good citizens. As for those that commit other felony crimes, lock them up and then deport them. They deserve the rough treatment.

It really is funny reading your rant. You call me racist but I never once mentioned a nationality...you did. I don't care who they are, but apparently you do.

Anonymous

America has a big problem with illegal immigration, but a big part of it stems from the word "illegal." It pollutes the debate. It blocks solutions. Used dispassionately and technically, there is nothing wrong with it. Used as an irreducible modifier for a large and largely decent group of people, it is badly damaging. And as a code word for racial and ethnic hatred, it is detestable.
Our right-wingers are wackier than normal on this issue where as usual, to the them, there are never any gray areas to the issue.

jfrazier

Anonymous 12:21,

Well, that is a bit too P.C. Is it also badly damaging to call drug addicts, drug addicts rather than chemically dependent people? Sure, sugar coat it any way you want, this group of people have broken the law of the land. I am for humane and civilized methods of dealing with the issue, but call it what it is. I am very conservative, and maybe even right-wing wacky according to some, but let's think this problem through and do what is best to preserve the laws of the land and treat these people with dignity while fixing the problem.

I think a lot of the harsh edge has originated from the lack of government action on the problem. Generally, the vigilanty mentality, and its associated hatred, evolves from frustration with the system.

Anonymous

You would think that in this situation, cooler heads would prevail.
But look what happened when people tried to stop the Bush Doctrine's War on Iraq.

words, more words

At least "undocumented" and an even better word, "unauthorized" contain the possibility of reparation and atonement, and allow for a sensible reaction proportional to the offense. The paralysis in Congress and the country over fixing our immigration laws stems from our inability to get our heads around the wrenching change involved in making an illegal person legal. Think of doing that with a crime, like cocaine dealing or arson. Unthinkable!

Fed-up!

Ive always been a loyal member of the church, however part of this illegal problem I blame on the church. If they weren't telling these people they were Lamanites-choke-choke! We would not have them coming here and breaking our laws, and pretending to love the church, and falsely hiding in the shadows of the church. I am extremely tired of all this silliness as are most LDS. This is profoundly ridiculous! Everyone is aware of DNA nowadays--DA!

DahktaD

Large leaps? Unfounded? In what way, please do tell oh worldy one.

It seems you have brought on a tangent of kicking down doors. Quite the contrary, if found an illegal should pay as the law prescribes, do you have an issue with that? Then after plea to 30 days, they should be removed from the country, permanently. As far as a mass round up of some 12-20 million, obviously no do-able. However, removing the magnets of illegal immigration, ie - jobs, medical care, social services, 'driver privilege cards', et al...the problem will cure itself in due time. In the meantime ICE and the Border Patrol should continue to pursue enforcement of OUR US laws to the extent possible, expeditiously at that. With the pending recession and loss of jobs, it will become more apparent to the public at large who is removing food from the dinner table of US Citizens and LEGAL residents. Patience Frazier, patience.

LDS in Texas

Whoa! Do you folks in Utah really think the immigration issues are the fault of the LDS church? If so, please explain why the same problems exist in Texas ... and Arizona ... and California ... and Florida.

RE: LDS in Texas

Nah--in Utah, EVERYTHING'S the church's fault! Illegal immigration, global warming, lead-paint-laced products, the Iraq War, high gas prices, and Uncle Elmer's toenail fungus--it's all on the Mormons' doorstep! Even your own problems! Believable or not, find a way to blame the church! It's fun--at least if you're spiteful! It's easy--at least once you learn to ignore facts and logic and spew vicious emotionally laden rhetoric instead! And it's free--of human compassion and decency!

Welcome to the poisonous cultural/religious politics of the Beehive State, where anti-religious schizophrenia is a way of life for some people. It's like a really, *really* twisted and venomous version of pin-the-tail-on-the-donkey--complete with people who actually think the tail's been pinned in the right spot, wherever it lands, and immediately start shooting to kill the poor creature.

Someone else nearly a century ago in an otherwise enlightened European nation began blaming a particular religion and those who followed it for his own country's woes. Pity the blind bigots who follow his lead today.

Anonymous

Meanwhile, out on the edges of the debate edges that are coming closer to the mainstream every day bigots pour all their loathing of Spanish-speaking people into the word illegal. Rant about "illegals" call them congenital criminals, lepers, thieves, unclean and people will nod and applaud. They will send money to your Web site and heed your calls to deluge lawmakers with phone calls and faxes. Your TV ratings will go way up.
This is not only ugly, it is counterproductive, paralyzing any effort toward immigration reform. Comprehensive legislation in Congress and sensible policies at the state and local level have all been stymied and will be forever, as long as anything positive can be branded as "amnesty for illegals."

jfrazier

DahktaD,

The leap in logic was to lump all crimes into the same category. There are degrees of crimes and those that pose an imminent threat and those that don't. Likewise, the treatment of these varying degrees of criminals should be appropriate. That's all I was saying.

All your other latter comments I agree with.

As for patience, I am proposing patience in dealing with this issue. Let's not try to solve this problem overnight by causing unfounded harm to otherwise good people. I just hate to see mobocracy take over. I agree wholeheartedly that if we take away the attractant and tighten the borders we will then be able to deal with those that are here now. I have a real problem with Mexico being so casual about this. If they would improve conditions in their country the people would not have to come here to survive.

Anonymous

We are stuck with a bogus, deceptive strategy a 700-mile fence on a 2,000-mile border to stop a fraction of border crossers who are only 60 percent of the problem anyway, and scattershot raids to capture a few thousand members of a group of 12 million.
None of those enforcement policies have a trace of honesty or realism. At least they don't reward illegals, and that, for now, is all this country wants. Especially the nasty far-righters.

Star

I think I have a tendency to believe a bit more of what "jfrazier" is trying to say. He seems to be one of the few on here who knows what he is talking about and not shouting hostilities.

Oh holy one, DahktaD, you need not be so patient. This is the time our country needs us all. Americans need to take action now, for our country is in VERY BIG TROUBLE.

Nevertheless, I enjoy reading the two of you jfrazier & DahkaD. Great insight!

Re: To Just Saying

You're right timing is everything. When the Mormon pioneers arrived in the valley they were on Mexican soil. Just because the Mexican-American War was in progress when they arrived doesn't mean that the land wasn't Mexico's. The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, which ceded Utah to the US, was signed on February 2, 1848, well after the Saint's arrival.

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