Deseret News | Reader comments: Lawmakers, LDS Church brainstorm

Reader comments
Lawmakers, LDS Church brainstorm

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Bob | 12:55 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Its rather amusing how the Church is so hard core when it comes to obedience -- except when it comes to obedience to immigration laws. I think it must have everything to do with getting illegals to join the Church. And please don't edit this comment out Mr. Cannon. I mean if you're going to run an article about the Church touching on a controversial political subject, you have to allow comments.

Saul | 1:38 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

To Bob: The Church is not supporting disobedience, but rather reminding people that this issue is about more than just illegal actions. It is about treating everyone as a child of God. I am very much opposed to illegal immigration. However, I believe that we should be civil in how we deal with the issue. We can hold people responsible for their actions according to the law and still treat them with respect. Deciding to join the church or not is up the them. We just want them to know that there is a God, and that he loves them very much.

Brad | 1:44 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

I don't see anywhere in the article where the Church advocates disobeying any law? What did you read BOB? Please help me see your point of view

Comments continue below

From AZ | 1:47 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

I applaud the LDS leaders for taking this stance. Moreover, many of us in Arizona would appreciate it if some LDS leaders could pass on the message about being humane about immigration laws to state Rep. Russell Pearce. The man's words are fanatical and frankly embarrassing to anyone with a sense of human decency. The neo-Nazis eat what he says up like candy, and even worse, he's quoted them in return to support his position.

Bob, do you mean to say that there's any greater law than the one Christ gave: Love God, and love your neighbor? Do you think the Lord exempted illegal immigrants from that? I agree with the church's feelings here: Illegal immigrants should not be treated inhumanely. It's not a question about who does or doesn't join the Church. Come on, Bob, that's just flat-out silly.

Penalties that match the severity of the crime can definitely be discussed. (Pearce's *better* ideas, for instance, best apply to illegal immigrants who commit felonies.) But we should never forget that illegal immigrants are people, too, and deserve humane treatment. That's the core principle here.

Keiki | 1:51 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

They haven't said anything about being against 'obedience to immigration laws'. They stated that when looking at ways to deal with the illegal immigration issue, we all need to remember we're dealing with people, families, children, etc.

So I don't understand how you can find it 'amusing' that a religious organization is promoting the idea that we deal with people humanely and compassionately.

Carl | 1:59 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

I thought that the LDS church believed in being obedient to the laws of the land? I find it hypocritical that they are now compelling our lawmakers to indulge our illegal immigrant population in their law breaking ways.

I could call Bob a retard but th | 2:26 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Bob, you misinterpret the position of the Church on obedience. The Church isn't hard core on obedience to any law or commandment. Instead, the Church is trying to help people come closer to God. Never has the Church spoken without compassion or love for those who fail to keep or live all of the laws and commandments of God and generally don't judge its members harshly when it comes to them keeping the laws of the land especially when those laws are controversial (i.e., if Rosa Parks was a member they wouldn't have excommunicated her for breaking the law and refusing to sit at the back of the bus).

The Church regularly calls on its members to not be full of hate towards those who suffer from a sin or temptation and to remember that they are people. Furthermore, the position of the Church has taken on this has nothing to do with current immigration laws or people failing to keep them instead it's about the immigration debate and the tone it has taken.

To accuse an entire Church of having malignant or sinister motives because they speak of compassion indicates that this issue has gotten out of hand.

Republicans hate LDS Democrats | 2:44 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Litvack commented in the article that, "As Mitt has been treated unfair, targeted for being Mormon, so too have some LDS Democratic candidates been targeted in Utah as somehow unworthy of election," and then went on to note "And it is not fair to bring religion into our own campaigns here. I hope people remember this in Utah local elections later this year."

I agree with Rep. Litvack, who isn't LDS, that it is something that LDS Democrats deal with and what really offends a lot of us is how Romney supporters use his religion as a tool to get votes and support for his campaign.

Simply because someone doesn't like Romney doesn't mean he loses a primary because the people are anti-Mormon. It's probably because he is lacks character and experience since that is why I, a Mormon, will not vote for him.

Even if sompe people were anti-Mormon it's offensive to Mormons for Mormons to use our religion as a way to say "look at poor me. People aren't voting for me because I'm Mormon" when a lot of Mormons in Utah don't vote for people because they see them as not being Mormon or good Mormons.

Timj | 3:07 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

It's rather telling that Bob believes Mr. Cannon is personally sitting at his computer at one in the morning, personally editing comments out that he doesn't like.
The church didn't say illegal immigration was ok...they said that we should retain our sense of humanity. Unfortunately, there are those who will refuse to listen...including Mr. Hickman and his friends.

Foxgoku | 3:09 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Before each general legislative session, legislators meet with a special affairs committee of the LDS Church? I thought the Church stayed out of politics except when moral issues demanded it. What am I missing here? This article needs more explanation as it begs the question.

Ray | 3:46 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Bob, I see nothing wrong with having compassion when addressing our illegal immigration issue. However, the editor of any newspaper should have enough integrity and not hide behind a cloud of misrepresentation that compassion is the only issue to be considered in order to be respectful to the wishes of its owner as our nation embraces the rule of law. This surely is not good journalism. I do give credit for your article that you have finally have come out of the closet by informing the public that you have these special meeting prior to each yearï¿½s legislative session which includes the hierarchy of the LDS Church.

RE: Bob | 3:53 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Who said anything about obedience? Obedience implies that there is a law to obey. I don't know if you noticed or not, but the church officials are talking to law MAKERS. They never said anything about obeying or disobeying the law, they just want them to use compassion in their law making process. Or is it contradictory for the church to teach compassion? You know if you try real hard you can find a way to criticize the church for every single action they take, but I don't really know why you would want to waste time doing that.

LLanquihue | 5:37 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Compassion is always important to include in any of these matters. That said, the situation of those illegal aliens who have broken the law is trumped by the compassion for citizens of the U.S. Specifically, I am thinking of the families lives destroyed by the rampage of drunk driving illegals, the murders and rapes and many other crimes. This is secondary to the mexicanization of neighborhoods and in some parts of the U.S., whole cities.

The article is correct to state no need to hate or demonize but there is also no reason to tolerate this ongoing cultural invasion. If we don't get control of this situation, in 10 or 20 years, the balkanization in parts of the U.S. will produce much more chaos and anarchy that we already see reigning around our country.

After all, it is our country; let's begin with the idea of national sovereignty and then let's re-establish our Americian culture. Multi-racial U.S. is fine; multi-cultural U.S. will not work. Cultures by nature want to and will dominate. I am unaware of any foreign culture that we should allow to be installed as the standard in the U.S.

Latino | 6:10 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Thank you LDS Church!! It's about time they say something about how our lawmakers should deal with immigration.

Barry | 6:13 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Bob you are biased in your thinking. Obedience does not supercede compassion, love thy neighbor and respect for human life. You cannot legislate morals. That is why the church is stressing obedience. I have never read in the scriptures anything about immigration laws. They do stress obedience to the law of the land except when they are in violation of moral principals.

Bob....your silly | 6:13 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

What part of what was said do you disagree with. We should not show compassion? The only reason they want them to be treated compassionately is they can will join the church, just a tad synical aren't we? Believe me, I am not here to defend the church, haven't attended church for over 20 years, but if you can't have a little compassion for some of these families then I feel sorry for you. I know of many families in this predicament, they are good families, just trying to survive. Hopefully you will recognize that dark spot in your chest where your heart used to be.

Anonymous | 6:16 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Ah yes Bob, always an ulterior motive right? Get real. It has nothing to do with getting illegals to join the Church and everything to do with treating them humanely and not deamonizing them....gee, I think that's just what the article said...imagine that Bob.

Mike | 6:20 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Bob,

It's because current federal immigration laws are uninforcible and newly proposed state laws are bordering on inhumane. You can see ulterior motives where ever you want to find them but the truth of the matter is that these immigrants are human beings, regardless how much the right wing politicians, pundits and bigots want to demonize and criminalize and marginalize them.

Nyron | 6:27 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Bob, that is a falsehood!

ron | 6:35 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

yea, bob. I am amused, but not for the reasons you put forth. Humanity is not a word you seem to understand. That makes me saddened and amused.

liberal larry | 6:38 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

I'm always amazed at how reasonable, and compassionate, Mormon authorities are when they come on social issues. I wish the leaders would speak out more and enlighten the brethren on issues such as evolution, gun control and global warming.

oldman | 6:47 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Once again we hear how Mitt is being picked on. Boo hoo. The church fails to discuss what it has done/ continues to do to others. The church sums it up with its favorite statement - "We are the only true church." Those of us who have been members and have left knows just what the church is capable of.

As far as immigration - I agree with the last poster. The church consistently strives to baptize anyone they can get their hands on. Most ILLEGAL immigrants laugh at American laws. They believe America is theirs and we are the intruders.

Those in other countries join the church with hopes it will offer them a way to America.

Texas | 6:53 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Interesting how we each take something different from the article. I did not read don't obey, I read a request to show compassion and humanity as the issue is discussed and the laws prepared. Not living in Utah, maybe I don't read with the same critical eye, but I did not read anything about a request for casual enforcement. The "Church" comment seems very much like very other church comment in Texas or across the country . . . remember that we are talking about people, not just politics, when immigration is discussed.

Grandma C. | 7:21 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

I appreciate the Deseret News publishing this article about the meeting between spokespersons for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and leaders of the (Utah?) legistature. For those of us residing outside Utah, this news is an item of interest. Thank you.
I take issue, though, with a common misconception presented here. Missionaries for the church do not "get people to convert." The statement suggests coercion and arm twisting strategies. Instead, missionaries teach the Gospel of Jesus Christ to persons who are interested. Those who are taught are encouraged to pray to Heavenly Father about their choice. The large number of persons choosing baptism in Latin countries is a measure of missionary success in that the missionaries are teaching those the Lord has already prepared for membership in His church. I hope my words clarify this for the DN writers.

phebe | 7:22 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

It is my understanding that the LDS Church teaches that we should obey the laws of the land. Illegal immigrants are law breaking people and should be treated as such.

edwin smith | 7:23 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

It is interesting that so many people in this state and nationally wish the LDS church would simply hide its head in the sand, say nothing on any issue and ignore the moral environment around it, when its members come from every race creed and culture in the world. The purpose of religion is to promote the spiritual and emotional well being of the human race in the manner it feels God has directed. Not all will accept that premise, but how can any position of faith be considered strong enough to lift its constituency if it remains mute on issues that affect the souls of its members. The powers of opposition will always wail and detract, but those of faith and virtue cannot wilt and cower when facing its wrath, no matter what the issue.

to Bob | 7:34 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

I agree. I was really appalled when I found out the Church didn't obey the legal order to exterminate Mormons back in Illinois when the order was given. In fact they ran from the law. Such hypocrites. I mean, after all, if it's the law, it must be right, and therefore must be obeyed.

provojoe | 7:34 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

The Book of Mormon says that no one will come to this country unless they are led here by God.

RRC | 7:43 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

The Church is 100% correct in telling political candidates to apply a little compassion to the immigration issue. There is too much hate out there, much of it based on racism. Step back a bit and ask yourself why these people come here. They come for the same reasons as the Irish did in the 1800s, for the same reasons as other groups have over the years. Building a wall on the border, evicting 12 million people and other draconian measures will not work. We need to give people a reason to want to be in their home countries, and that means helping them build economic opportunity. We can do a lot to make the world a better place, and the demogogues running for office are only exploiting hate and fear. This is not Christian behavior. We enjoy the contributions of the immigrant population, whether legal or not. Let's find a way to rationally deal with this matter, not driven by ugliness. Teh GOP candidates need to stop dealing in hate and fear, and act like compassionate Christians as they claim to be. By their acts you shall know them.

Herb | 7:51 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Humanity & High moral character in an illegal immagrant? Isn't that an oxy-mormon? If I'm illegaly in this country how can I qualify for being worthy of participating in US citizen programs paid for by your tax dollars or for that matter holding a calling or a temple reccomend? I'm confused by the rational...? Yes, we should treat all people with the love of God while administering the law that protects the interests of the United States of America! "One nation under God, With liberty and justice for all!" Now that is high moral integrity for all.

Not in Utah | 7:52 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

The point on LDS members attitudes towards Democrats is right on target. The Chuch has become identified with the GOP, both in the U.S. and overseas. Being a Republican is, in effect, a de facto obligation of Church membership - at least that is the attitude of many. Even many missionaries carry the message. As an LDS Democrat, I have been told many times that I could not possibly a good member of the Church. These people cannot even comprehend the idea that a Mormon can be a Democrat! This attitude must be snuffed! I can let it roll off, but many others cannot for various reasons. This connection between the GOP and the Church is HURTING the Church around the world. If the Church is serious about its mission to spread the Gospel and represent the Savior, it must deal with this major problem, not just throw P.R. at the world.

russ | 7:57 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Huh? The Mormon church leaders sit down with the elected officials before the sessions and tell, er, explain the church's view of issues?
Is this America? I don't live in Utah anymore, but I can tell you one thing. If that happened in my present state, the citizens would ask loudly and clearly: WHY????!!!?? This is perhaps a very good reason to keep whathisname out of the white house. Soon the Mormon church will be sitting down with Mitt about ... well how to conduct the public's business. The public's business. You know, the public. The mormons and non-mormons business.

Really? Does the Mormon church feel so insecure that it has to keep the collar on its own people who got elected to office? And these sheep obey?
Control freaks is only phrase that comes to my mind.

Tell the Mormon church, the "we don't get involved in politics" church, to use the front door like everyone else. To hold open meetings like laws try to make happen. No wonder non-mormons in Utah feel oppressed. Imagine for a moment if the Baptists did that in...SC... how outraged mormons would be. If the shoe fits, you have to wear it.

Reply | 8:01 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

I did not take it that the church is against stoppping the illegals. I think the Church wants to make sure when ilegals are caught that they are treated as humans and not like livestock that have wandered from the pasture. Whether Americans or not, they are still Heavenly Fathers children. But they need to also be obedient to the laws, and be deported back to their country. I think if you really listen to what Mitt Romney,he is saying just that. When they come here illegally they broke our laws, and they need to go back and get in line with the people from all the other countries that are not land tied with the US. It is that simple, I do not understand why this subject is always made to be so difficult. Just like any other law, you break it you suffer the consequence.

Jerry | 8:01 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

To Bob. Get a life. Do you see a conspiracy under every bush!
No one complains when the evangelicals elect people to office!
It must be nice to complain about everything all the time! No responsibility for anything!

alum | 8:01 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

i agree somewhat with Bob. LDS people are supposed to honor and sutain the law, be upstanding citizens whereever they live, and oh, yeah, obey the law. Violation of immigration law and obedience are in fact mutually exclusive - you can have one or the other, but not both. People cannot in good faith be allowed to join the LDS church when their very presence is defiance of law.

Utah Valley Resident | 8:03 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

My feeling about the issue of illegal immigration is simply this...The borders need to be regulated and no undocumented entry should be allowed into the United States. This is an issue with all of the states in the country who border Canada and Mexico. These borders need to be totally regulated...no entry into the United States period unless the entry is legally documentated. What's so hard about that? Citizens of the United States cannot go into other nations of the world without documents. What is inhumane about that? I don't care what nationality these people are. This is a country with border and people come here under the laws set up to govern immigration. This has become nothing but a selfserving political football. It is crazy. It will have to start with laying down the law with Mexico and Canada obviously. We can't even tell by the census how many illegals let alone citizens are in this country. It's not a matter of humanity, it is a matter of the law. If law cannot be enforced and we have no borders, we don't have a country, it is that simple. The bottom line is our lawmakers haven't the stomach.

agree w/ bob | 8:03 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

violation of laws of the land and faithful obedience are mutually exclusive - they cannot exist together.

jason | 8:05 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

adding an 'element of humanity'? How about the church's teachings about honoring and sustaining the law? Enforcement first!

Mark H | 8:06 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Bob-

It has nothing to do with letting illegals join the Church. Don't let the axe you have to grind with the Church cloud your judgment and get in the way of rational thinking.

Anonymous | 8:10 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

There is always room for compassion and it is surprising how contention and misunderstanding melt away when it is present. msm

north carolina | 8:12 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

anyone that can't see why this immigration debate is more of a human issue (not so much a moral issue) than most other legal debates is missing something. As such, wouldn't you expect any church that espouses Christian principles to show some compassion on these people, most of whom are trying to improve their living standards? To try and read some ulterior motive into the church's comment is a bit paranoid in my opinion.

Anonymous | 8:18 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

I thought the church stayed out of politics. But, here they are beaking off about something very political.
I figure they ought to be considered a 'think tank' or something like that. And pay taxes.

A True Patriot | 8:37 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

I'ts rather amusing how people who say the law must be obeyed period, therefore we must crack down on immegration, think nothing of speeding or several other laws that they (as we all do) break all the time.

Face it, the United States does not have clear title to all of its land. There were broken Indian treaties, the war of unprovoked agression against Mexico by which got all the land from Mexico and slavery. Face it, the Unites States has not always been the best of world citizens, and we must accept this bad heritage just as we so gladly accept that portion of our heritage which is positive. Unless one believes that by taking something by force, one can gain clear title, then one can't believe we have clear title to much of our land therefore we need to be accomidating to those we took it from.

Disturbed | 8:39 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Do the GOP and Dem leaders meet with leaders of other faiths before general sessions to be told how to run things too? I find this really disturbing. The LDS Church has always said it stays out of politics yet here they are directing how the legislature should approach various issues. And don't get me started on the incredibly stupid liquor law...let's move over-the-counter cough suppressants to the liquor stores too...

DWR | 8:43 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

It seems as if the LDS church would stress obedience to God's laws, not state or federal law. I personally see a distinction. So I don't see anything amusing about it at all.

Obedience??? | 8:47 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

The article was not about the Church not wanting to obey the immigration laws. It was about the Church asking for us to be more humane and less hatefull when it comes to making laws and discussing illegals. The 12th article of Faith of the Church says that members of the church believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law. Bob, it seems as though you are looking to find fault where there is none.

Fredd | 8:53 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

All the idiots on the "alcopop" forum can stuff their "the church has a right to get involved in moral issues" stance. This article says every year leaders of both parties meet with leaders of the LDS church. Yes I have a problem with that. Don't call me an anti or say i'm mormon bashing. But as a non LDS person I think these legislative leaders should be impeached. the LDS church gets their say every Sunday for 3 hours. that shoulds be enough.

Non-believe | 8:54 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

TheChurch needs to continue to stay out of politics, including immigration. I was surprised that the Church is trying to influence state politics. Why don't we just let everyone in Mexico into Utah and then the Church can convert them. NOT But that is what it sounds like. I con't have a problem with the stand on alcohol but your policy of staying of politics seems to be weakening. Brethren, don't pretend to be bi-partsian and then try to influence the issues under the table. Mitt R is getting exactly what he should have expected. I don't know why anyone is surprised.

He that is without sin ... | 8:55 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Not only the LDS church. Jesus himself wasn't a stickler for following the Law either. When the woman caught doing adultery was taken to him, rather than tell them to carry out the law, he told them, "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone".

Anonymous | 8:57 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

"Special Affairs committee"? Will Mit have one of these too if president?

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