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LDS Church joins 'alco-pop' battle
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Kevin | 6:33 a.m. Jan. 18, 2008
Why do we even need state liquor stores? That should not be the role of
government, to sell liquor... or anything. Other than keeping slightly
different store hours than grocery stores, what's the difference?... except
that I can't buy food and wine at the same stop. It's a
nuisance.
Richard G. | 6:54 a.m. Jan. 18, 2008
Attention Mormons: This is precisely why so many of us dislike your church with
a passion. This is a gross violation of church-state separation. Stop converting
your weird moral beliefs into laws that affect me. This is fascism. Moderator,
your readers need to hear these harsh words, so please don't pull your
usual censorship stunt.
Comments continue below
Dictating Morality | 7:04 a.m. Jan. 18, 2008
"Since when does the church and the state insist on dictating
morality?" Are you kidding? Isn't that what most churches do, line
out a set of beliefs and morals and tell you that that's how you should
live? The state does the same thing.....don't kill, don't steal,
don't get drunk and drive, no child porn. Of course the church has spoken
out against 'alco-pop', we believe people shouldn't drink and it
would be a pitiful display if the the church and it's members didn't
actively stand up for our beliefs. Why is it that it's always the church
that people get irate with when they give a statement on a social issue but no
one was railing against MADD (which was also mentioned in the article) for
pushing and dictating their "morality".
Tony | 7:21 a.m. Jan. 18, 2008
Yes, Richard. My comment was deleted within MINUTES after leaving it. Mormons
need to hear how their church leadership is still perpetuating the primal War in
Heaven by trying to legislate their values. A forum moderator who deletes
contrasting viewpoints is doing the exact same thing. Joseph Smith said to
teach correct principles and let the people govern themselves. These days it
has become 'teach correct principles and then legislate them' so that
people are forced to obey. Again, who originally came up with that idea???
Humptydumpty | 7:23 a.m. Jan. 18, 2008
Well, it is better Richard if the moderators let the rest of us see your rant.
These are such silly, childish and supercilious things to say!
To all of you who want to take it as a personal slap for the Lord's Church: This is not a politcal issue. It is about protecting youth, even yours. It is about an entity that is willing to stand up and say when something is wrong. The Church does NOT endorse candidates or parties, however it will stand up for what is right.
Go ahead and fill your heart with hate and keep it there. However, it would be much better for you if you humbled yourself and wondered once in awhile if you are wrong...
To all of you who want to take it as a personal slap for the Lord's Church: This is not a politcal issue. It is about protecting youth, even yours. It is about an entity that is willing to stand up and say when something is wrong. The Church does NOT endorse candidates or parties, however it will stand up for what is right.
Go ahead and fill your heart with hate and keep it there. However, it would be much better for you if you humbled yourself and wondered once in awhile if you are wrong...
JWK | 7:33 a.m. Jan. 18, 2008
Alcohol causes the death of over 16,000 per year. It is a cause of broken
families and broken hearts. It is the cause of health problems such as heart
and liver disease. And you guys blame a church for not wanting more deaths and
misery. Give me a break! All people who want a better society should stand up
against the sale of this beverage in local stores. All people who don't
want their children to be killed because they imbibed such a beverage and drove
should be supporting such a church. This has more to do with common sense, but
then again, most who drink and drive don't show much common sense anyway.
There ought to be a registry for people who have more than one DUI on their
record so we can see who is irresponsible.
Rob | 7:41 a.m. Jan. 18, 2008
Minors should have NO access to alcohol no matter the alcohol content. It has
been proven that it destroys precious brain cells. It is easier for them to get
addicted. That ruins their lives, their families lives and their future.
Alcohol affects so many lives. Even one drink before driving can cause
accidents that result in death and injuries. I could care less if Utah is the
laughing stock of the country because they don't sell alcohol in stores.
Even as a child in California (not a Mormon then) it really bothered me that
alcohol was sold in stores because I saw what it did to people. These were good
normal people. One of my friends brought me home after school and her Mom was
drunk. Do you know how embarrased she was? Another woman was throwing up on
her kitchen table because alcohol was more important than food. Others got
attacked and raped because they had drank. So luckily as a child I saw how
alcohol affects people. So it is a little inconvenient for you. I go to
seperate stores for many things. I am proud of what sets us apart not
embarrased.
Roscoe | 8:05 a.m. Jan. 18, 2008
I agree that minors should no have access to alcohol. There are already laws in
place that cover that. I also agree that alcohol is responsible for many deaths.
So are cars, guns, tobacco, motorcycles and cancer. This issue is about
non-drinkers using their majority status in this state to force their morals on
everyone, even those who do not share their beliefs. This is wrong. While most
Utahns believe drinking is immoral, there are those who do not. Like it or not,
non-drinkers are not the only inhabitants of this state, and those who believe
differently are entitled to equal consideration. All this proposed legislation
will do is make it more inconvenient for those of legal age to purchase alcohol.
It does nothing to keep it out of the hands of minors. If you're over 21
and don't drink, then keep your nose where it belongs, it doesn't
affect you anyway.
Dutchman | 8:13 a.m. Jan. 18, 2008
Distilled spirits of any kind should be sold in separate liquor stores, period.
How is this controlling your life? Just go to the right store and buy it but
pull it out of the corner 7-11. I have lived in California and seen first hand
the destruction all the available alcohol on hand has done to ruin lives.
Adults who buy and then give or sell liquor to minors should be prosecuted to
the full extent of the law. If a minor kills someone while intoxicated then the
adult who supplied the alcohol should spend time in prison. People in Utah are
not insolated from the world. We see and know what is going on and many of us
have lived outside the State. I for one am proud of a church and other
organizations that take a stand regardless of the popularity. So what if it
seems odd to other people. Plenty of people want to live here for the very
reasons that our peculiar laws make this a better place to live.
libertarian mormon | 8:18 a.m. Jan. 18, 2008
I won't go so far as to criticize the leaders of the LDS Church, because I
don't know their reasoning behind joining the movement. I will point out
that they did not start the movement, but merely signed on to it, so this is not
a Mormon church thing.
Having said that, I would caution members of any church to be careful what you legislate. Joseph Smith did say to teach correct principles and let people govern themselves. I don't think he meant to teach correct principles to the members of the LDS church, and then have them codify each one of them into law. When we are threatened with state action if we don't obey the commandments, I don't know that righteousness is possible. According to Mormon doctrine, God allows each one of us to choose, and the natural consequences follow from our sinful decisions. Sounds like a good model from a good source.
Now, I am not fully convinced that making those looking for alco-pop go to a state liquor store, rather than to a convenience store, necessarily falls into the category of legislating morality, but it comes pretty close.
Having said that, I would caution members of any church to be careful what you legislate. Joseph Smith did say to teach correct principles and let people govern themselves. I don't think he meant to teach correct principles to the members of the LDS church, and then have them codify each one of them into law. When we are threatened with state action if we don't obey the commandments, I don't know that righteousness is possible. According to Mormon doctrine, God allows each one of us to choose, and the natural consequences follow from our sinful decisions. Sounds like a good model from a good source.
Now, I am not fully convinced that making those looking for alco-pop go to a state liquor store, rather than to a convenience store, necessarily falls into the category of legislating morality, but it comes pretty close.
Did You READ? | 8:23 a.m. Jan. 18, 2008
T.Roberts and Richard G.
Did you actually READ the article. Did you just skip the part in the article where it stated that the LDS Church did not initiate comment, but responded after repeated inquiries from the media? Nevermind the issue, this is just another opportunity for you to take potshots at something you obviously do not understand. As for the issue, I am LDS and believe that the alco-pops SHOULD be sold in grocery stores. It is basically beer. It has 3.2% alcohol. It is compliant with the state law. You have to be 21 to purchase the products, so the argument that you are enticing children is just plain ignorant. If kids want to drink, they will find a way, fruity flavor or not. As for Utah having "arcane assortment of liquor laws", last time I checked, there are no DRY COUNTIES in Utah, as there are in the South! Grow up!
Did you actually READ the article. Did you just skip the part in the article where it stated that the LDS Church did not initiate comment, but responded after repeated inquiries from the media? Nevermind the issue, this is just another opportunity for you to take potshots at something you obviously do not understand. As for the issue, I am LDS and believe that the alco-pops SHOULD be sold in grocery stores. It is basically beer. It has 3.2% alcohol. It is compliant with the state law. You have to be 21 to purchase the products, so the argument that you are enticing children is just plain ignorant. If kids want to drink, they will find a way, fruity flavor or not. As for Utah having "arcane assortment of liquor laws", last time I checked, there are no DRY COUNTIES in Utah, as there are in the South! Grow up!
Fredd | 8:30 a.m. Jan. 18, 2008
I agree with Rob and JWK. Alcohol should be banned. State stores are a
disgrace and promote alcohol. Everyone I know who drinks is a drunk and unfit
to be a parent. Personally I think the Church should speak out more on the role
of government in our lives.
uncannygunman | 8:39 a.m. Jan. 18, 2008
Hey D-News, why don't you dignify this debate a bit by declining to use the
loaded non-word "alco-pops." You know it's not a real word
because even you put it in quotes! As much press as this issue is going to get,
I hope you'll make it your practice to use a neutral term like flavored
malt beverages, or a non-judgmental acronym like FMB.
This whole debate is so ridiculous to me, and the church's intrusion so blatant, that I can only come to the conclusion that this is all political theater designed to (wait for it . . .) help Mitt Romney! Here's my theory: the church arranges to introduce this bill, the moralist stooges at MADD jump on board, and Utah drinkers rightfully explode when the church publicly endorses the bill. Here's the twist--the church will work behind the scenes to ensure the bill is very publicly defeated, with some LDS legislators "bucking" the church. Maybe (gasp!) Mitt himself comes out in opposition to the bill. Bingo!--Nothing changes, but Mitt gets to crow about how the church doesn't really control his or its other members' political decisions!
You heard it here first . . .
This whole debate is so ridiculous to me, and the church's intrusion so blatant, that I can only come to the conclusion that this is all political theater designed to (wait for it . . .) help Mitt Romney! Here's my theory: the church arranges to introduce this bill, the moralist stooges at MADD jump on board, and Utah drinkers rightfully explode when the church publicly endorses the bill. Here's the twist--the church will work behind the scenes to ensure the bill is very publicly defeated, with some LDS legislators "bucking" the church. Maybe (gasp!) Mitt himself comes out in opposition to the bill. Bingo!--Nothing changes, but Mitt gets to crow about how the church doesn't really control his or its other members' political decisions!
You heard it here first . . .
Jonas | 8:44 a.m. Jan. 18, 2008
I am a TRUE believer in free agency. This sort of sensorship is unconstitional
and flat out wrong on many different levels. When did I become the enemy. I am a
responsible social drinker that always has a DD. What gives the LDS church or
anyother group the right to dictate government laws. I would be upset if this
were any organization. Where are my rights? This is not about children getting
alcohol, we allready have laws in place to restrict that and punish those who
dont uphold those laws, this is about control. If kids want to get alcohol, they
will find a way. Where are the rights for the other side of the spectrum? This
country was founded on freedoms, not sensorship. The arguement that alcohol
kills people is a wash, when the leading killer in our country is heart disease
caused by obesity, not alcohol. Should we stop selling M&Ms in stores?
Should we limit Ice Cream only to Cold Stone? Two words, grow up! If this is
about the social issues, educate your children and help them to make good
decisions. Remember the 1st fundamental right given to us is freedom and free
agency.
Dave | 9:15 a.m. Jan. 18, 2008
Hey Fredd nice comments. It is close minded thinking like yours that gives the
whole State a horrible reputation. How can you say that "all people you
know who drink are drunks & unfit to be parents"??? That is one of the
most ridiculous comments I have ever heard!!!
I would love to know if you have kids yourself and if so if they grew up normal. I can't imagine they are very socially adjusted with thinking like you have. Get a clue!!!!!!!
I would love to know if you have kids yourself and if so if they grew up normal. I can't imagine they are very socially adjusted with thinking like you have. Get a clue!!!!!!!
DBG | 9:22 a.m. Jan. 18, 2008
Show me where the Constitution states separation fo Church and State? The
Establishment Clause is highly misunderstood. The First Amdendment states that
CONGRESS SHALL NOT ESTABLISH A CHURCH- in otherwords, government cannot be
operated by a Church as in the case of England when the Church of Englad ran the
government. This isn't the case with the LDS Church? Why?
Because in our form of government (republic, not a democracy) the rule of the majority is often what creates rules. Since Utah has a higher proportion of LDS people, thus, many of our laws will be aligned with LDS belief. You will find that in any community with a predominant religion. Go south and see what the Baptists do. Or go to a city where the Jews are and have more of a Jewish influence.
Last, I think it's ironic that people blame Utah for the "strict" liquor laws. Have you research other states that have prohibition laws? Both Oreogn and Washington have strict rules, and these are the most liberal states in the West. Pennsylvania has the most strict liquor laws, worse than Utah.
Do a little research to educate yourself before blowing hot air.
Because in our form of government (republic, not a democracy) the rule of the majority is often what creates rules. Since Utah has a higher proportion of LDS people, thus, many of our laws will be aligned with LDS belief. You will find that in any community with a predominant religion. Go south and see what the Baptists do. Or go to a city where the Jews are and have more of a Jewish influence.
Last, I think it's ironic that people blame Utah for the "strict" liquor laws. Have you research other states that have prohibition laws? Both Oreogn and Washington have strict rules, and these are the most liberal states in the West. Pennsylvania has the most strict liquor laws, worse than Utah.
Do a little research to educate yourself before blowing hot air.
CeeCee | 9:25 a.m. Jan. 18, 2008
For all those in favor or moving these drinks to the liquor store, please answer
me this: How will this stop underage drinking? Kids who want to drink will find
ways, they always have, they always will. If there is an excess of kids
drinking these "alco-pops" (btw --stupid name!!) then there should be
a crack down on the STORES that sell them to kids or the adults that give them
to the kids.
And to those of you who say, what's the big deal going to the Lqr store to get these... 1) there are not that many Lqr stores, so we have to go out of our way, 2) the hours of the Lqr store are not always convenient, several of them close at 7 p.m --- what would you do if your 7-11 closed at 7p and you couldnt get your 97 oz diet coke? These are LEGAL drinks, the are MALT beverages not distilled spirits and they should be conveniently available to ADULTS who chose to purchase them.
And to those of you who say, what's the big deal going to the Lqr store to get these... 1) there are not that many Lqr stores, so we have to go out of our way, 2) the hours of the Lqr store are not always convenient, several of them close at 7 p.m --- what would you do if your 7-11 closed at 7p and you couldnt get your 97 oz diet coke? These are LEGAL drinks, the are MALT beverages not distilled spirits and they should be conveniently available to ADULTS who chose to purchase them.
Huh? | 9:28 a.m. Jan. 18, 2008
Richard G.:
"This is fascism. "
What? It is fascist that you can't buy malt liquors in a grocery store, but at a state liquor store? People throw that word fascist around to totally dilute it to no meaning whatsoever. I am sure the people that really live in a fascist state would uncomfortably chuckle at your "oppression". The "weird moral belief" of not drinking liquor is not just a Mormon phenomenon...but I am sure you don't care about that.
"This is fascism. "
What? It is fascist that you can't buy malt liquors in a grocery store, but at a state liquor store? People throw that word fascist around to totally dilute it to no meaning whatsoever. I am sure the people that really live in a fascist state would uncomfortably chuckle at your "oppression". The "weird moral belief" of not drinking liquor is not just a Mormon phenomenon...but I am sure you don't care about that.
David Farnsworth | 9:31 a.m. Jan. 18, 2008
The funny thing about this outburst from irate people is that Utah's liquor
laws are NOT the most restrictive in the nation. There are dry counties all over
the South and the Midwest. Did the LDS Church legislate in those places? No. It
was actually Protestant church groups that backed such rules, not Mormons (who
were thin on the ground when those rules were put in place).
Grow up people.
Grow up people.
woopty-do | 9:31 a.m. Jan. 18, 2008
Another reason for haters to hate and vent. The church has always said it will
speak out on moral issues, and it views alcohol and its abuse as a moral issue.
Why don't you rant against the state liquor control board, MADD, and the
other groups that are behind this proposal? Do you not hate them enough?
It's sad that you fill yourselves with so much hate; it hurts you more than
anyone else. I take that back, when you pass it on to your children, it damages
them as well.
Promoting Underage Drinking? | 9:34 a.m. Jan. 18, 2008
An LDS Church spokesman said, "To allow the sale of distilled spirits in
grocery and convenience stores promotes underage drinking. . ."
I've also seen floor wax and paper towels in grocery and convenience stores, and they don't promote teenage cleaning.
The LDS Church needs to stick to being a church, where its members can go to for prayer and worship, and stop trying to govern the people of the State of Utah according to its beliefs.
Separation of church and state. What part of this do the Mormons not get?
I've also seen floor wax and paper towels in grocery and convenience stores, and they don't promote teenage cleaning.
The LDS Church needs to stick to being a church, where its members can go to for prayer and worship, and stop trying to govern the people of the State of Utah according to its beliefs.
Separation of church and state. What part of this do the Mormons not get?
Outside Utah | 9:39 a.m. Jan. 18, 2008
Teach correct principles and let the people govern themselves? So should we get
rid of all laws?
So someone murders someone and it is OK as long as he was taught correct principles? How about the Rapist that was taught correct princlples? Driving drunk? Hey they too were taugh correct principles. Anything goes as long as you were taught correct principles?
Looks to me that everyone has a different line as to what is right and what is wrong. I do not live in Utah and wish we had the laws you do. I hate going into a store to buy bread that is next to the vodka. What am I teaching my children? At least tobacco is now locked in a cage like is should be. So what next should we sell in stores next to the bread and Milk? Porn? Adult movie? Illegal drugs that soon will not be legal? Prostitution? It should be OK as long as we were taught correct princiles right?
Sounds to me that someone is teaching correct principles but but others don't want to listen.
So someone murders someone and it is OK as long as he was taught correct principles? How about the Rapist that was taught correct princlples? Driving drunk? Hey they too were taugh correct principles. Anything goes as long as you were taught correct principles?
Looks to me that everyone has a different line as to what is right and what is wrong. I do not live in Utah and wish we had the laws you do. I hate going into a store to buy bread that is next to the vodka. What am I teaching my children? At least tobacco is now locked in a cage like is should be. So what next should we sell in stores next to the bread and Milk? Porn? Adult movie? Illegal drugs that soon will not be legal? Prostitution? It should be OK as long as we were taught correct princiles right?
Sounds to me that someone is teaching correct principles but but others don't want to listen.
suzyk | 9:42 a.m. Jan. 18, 2008
I too support the LDS Church on their stand and I am pleased they answered the
inquiries. It should not be readily available to anyone under age and this idea
in the grocery stores is ludicrous. Many times ID is not asked for..yes, it does
occur a lot. Those who push this(grocery stores) are only interested in the
MONEY...NOT the temptation it presents by it being so easily obtained. It
belongs in the liquor stores... not grocery stores.
It's the human right to have free agency but unfortunately careless use of this free agency has taken many innocent lives that is why its purchase needs control.
It's the human right to have free agency but unfortunately careless use of this free agency has taken many innocent lives that is why its purchase needs control.
Elder Mac | 9:45 a.m. Jan. 18, 2008
I agree 100% with Jonas. Fredd you scare me. You say that you don't know
anyone who drinks that is not a drunk and unfit parents....WOW. Fredd, getting
out more it may be of great benefit for you in your life or you could keep
living in denial and believe the world is one big Mormon cocoon. I love you
Fredd, however there is a world outside of Provo and it is not really that
scary. I would like to expand on the thoughts Jonas had in regards to heart
disease. Heart disease is the leading cause of death in the U.S. and obesity is
the main cause. In the LDS version of the word of wisdom, Joe Smith let the
world know that eating fowls of the air and beasts of the earth were to be done
sparingly. If the LDS church and Fredd want alcohol to be put in only state run
stores, than I want the sale of meat (fowls and beasts) to be sold only in times
of famine and in winter months. If the word of wisdom is going to shoved down
our throats, than lets go all the way!
Love ya Fredd
Love ya Fredd
I Repeat... | 10:00 a.m. Jan. 18, 2008
I've said it before. So many, and now that would include the LDS church,
are worried about under-age drinking but seems so eager to turn a blind eye to
the fact that more kids in our society are over weight in epidemic numbers.
When will the government regulate fast food, junk food, sodas, ice cream, etc.
and can we expect the LDS church to voice the same opinions? Or are their
concerns only for those vices that are against the Word of Wisdom? When will
the government and the LDS church allow parents to be just that for their
children, a parent.
Anonymous | 10:08 a.m. Jan. 18, 2008
I'm from Pennsylvania and they are strict with liquor. You can't even
get booze in the grocery stores out there. Pennsylvania has the least amount of
Mormons per capita of any state according to a recent census. Also, when I lived
there, we'd receive mailings from the Catholic diocese on how to vote on
abortion and other issues. Yes, there is more to the world out there. Both
Mormons and those who complain about the influence of Mormons here need to wake
up to it.
Dutchman | 10:35 a.m. Jan. 18, 2008
CeeCee comments that "kids who want to drink will find ways". That is
true but most often that way is facilitated by an adult who buys or gives the
alcohol to a minor. Two tragedies happened in Salt Lake City last year. One
was at Trolley Square where a teen got a gun illegally from an adult and shot
and killed six people. The other tragedy was under the I-80 overpass on 20th
East where an intoxicated minor slammed into a family with his SUV and killed
four people. What's the difference? The adult who supplied the gun in the
Trolley Square tragedy is going to federal prison for 15 months. The adult who
supplied the alcohol to the minor in the traffic accident is not even being
sought after let alone prosecuted. Why the different treatments for adults who
supply guns to minors vs those who supply alcohol? Why are the leaders in Salt
Lake City who want more liberal drinking laws not willing to prosecute the
adults who break the law? When the adult drinkers in this State prove that they
can as a group act more responsibly I for one will allow them more latitude.
DD | 10:41 a.m. Jan. 18, 2008
For those of you who are opposed to removing flavored malt beverages from
grocery stores and convenience stores, as I am, there is something we can
do...and yes, it does work. Write and call your legislator as well as write
letters to the editor of this and other newspapers. Don't let your
comments here be the end of your action.
thinker | 10:52 a.m. Jan. 18, 2008
Did any of you think that these beverages need to be kept cold. The liquor
stores do not have space nor the refrigerators to do so. The money to supply the
stores with the units would take money from the state funds. That means less to
spend on the already underfunded school system.
Jonas | 11:15 a.m. Jan. 18, 2008
A government for the people, by the people, not groups of people. This is a far
reaching issue in this state that crosses over to many other areas, whether the
issue is "Alco-Pops" or a health club in Provo. The fact of the matter
is alcohol should be and is regulated to prevent drunk driving and underage
drinking. I know in my local grocer they have a seperate case for my adult
beverages, I am required to show my ID whenever I purchase alcohol, and I am
taxed like nothing else when I make my purchase. That is my decision for
enjoyning "spirits". It is so difficult to find middle ground when
both sides are so jaded. I believe that we need to educate our children in the
home, not hide everything away like a dirty secret. We have reasonable laws to
hold people accountable for their actions, this type of structure is what our
society is based on, not unreasonable control. Our government represents all the
people not the majority. Maybe that's why we struggle as a country. You may
disagree with my statements, but I believe in the fundamental right to choose,
whether its a soda or alco-pop.
Anonymous | 11:15 a.m. Jan. 18, 2008
Freaking Ridiculous
Jared | 11:38 a.m. Jan. 18, 2008
Jonas said, "A government for the people, by the people, not groups of
people.... Our government represents all the people not the majority."
Yes it does represent all the people but in our case majority rules. That's what Democracy (I'm not going to get into the argument about whether or not our government is a democracy) is all about. Our government is as much for groups of people as it is for individuals. If you want these so called "alco-pops" sold in grocery stores then convince a majority of people in Utah to allow it. That's what being a Democracy is all about. Besides the LDS Church is NOT trying to run Utah's government. They merely made a statement. Legislators can do whatever they want to do. I too believe in the fundamental right to choose - the majority of the people can choose how to run the government.
Yes it does represent all the people but in our case majority rules. That's what Democracy (I'm not going to get into the argument about whether or not our government is a democracy) is all about. Our government is as much for groups of people as it is for individuals. If you want these so called "alco-pops" sold in grocery stores then convince a majority of people in Utah to allow it. That's what being a Democracy is all about. Besides the LDS Church is NOT trying to run Utah's government. They merely made a statement. Legislators can do whatever they want to do. I too believe in the fundamental right to choose - the majority of the people can choose how to run the government.
astonished | 11:51 a.m. Jan. 18, 2008
Anyone who says that if you are older than 21 and do not drink you should just
stay out of it needs to meet the family and friends of someone killed by a drunk
driver. Someone I went to high school with was killed by a drunk driver while
changing a flat tire. I'm supposed to stay out of it because if I
don't drink I have no emotion or opionion about the laws that govern alchol
in our state? Orginizations that promote safety should be applauded for doing
so. Religious or otherwise. It won't be long before other churches join,
and then what will you say, that they too ought to keep their nose out of it, or
is it okay because they aren't mormon.
Mary | 12:05 p.m. Jan. 18, 2008
Does the state liquor store reduce the number of drunk driving incidents in
Utah? Do we have a significantly lower number of drinker per capita than other
states?
Honestly, this is truly a question. Does anyone who is writing here know?
Do we have some research to show that locking this stuff up in little stores somewhere will keep people from finding it, or making it?
Sadly, the whole thing smells of unrighteous dominion to me. I hate the whole alcohol drinking thing but like Jonas I also believe it is the fundamental right of all mankind to choose as they will.
Honestly, this is truly a question. Does anyone who is writing here know?
Do we have some research to show that locking this stuff up in little stores somewhere will keep people from finding it, or making it?
Sadly, the whole thing smells of unrighteous dominion to me. I hate the whole alcohol drinking thing but like Jonas I also believe it is the fundamental right of all mankind to choose as they will.
Pure Hypocracy | 12:10 p.m. Jan. 18, 2008
Interesting isn't it when everybody BUT the LDS Church has the right to
fight for change. Any organization can try to influence change BUT not the LDS
church. No sirreee, the LDS church MUST stay out of the fray because we all
believe in the separation of church and state (which IS NOT in the constitution
by the way). What a bunch of HYPOCRACY! It's ok for all the jack mormons
and non mormons and atheists and who ever else to jump in and try to influence
the political process but the moment the LDS church jumps in it's just
wrong. Go figure. The LDS has the right and even the obligation in the state of
Utah to be heavily involved in the political process. They have the right to
fight against anything which might degrade our society and alcohol consumption
certainly falls into that category. For those proponents of alcoholic beverages,
go ahead and fight for what you believe in - just allow that SAME RIGHT to all
the folks on the other side of the fence!!!
Democracy | 12:15 p.m. Jan. 18, 2008
The Church makes a stand against alcohol in grocery stores and people are
outraged??? That is comical. What's next, they will take a stand against
spousal abuse? Those dang Mormons!!! It comes down to the state being governed
by a democracy. That is how our nation was founded. Everyone has a vote.
Church and state are separate, the church does not have a vote. It is
individuals that have the vote to elect officials. Just thought I would explain
as based on grammar not a lot of you went to school long enough to figure this
out.
The real issue | 12:20 p.m. Jan. 18, 2008
Hello, is anyone really reading the article? All it says is "The Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has joined a list of groups publicly
supporting the removal of malt beverages, or "alco-pops," off grocery
store shelves.
The LDS Church didn't initiate the removel of malt beverages, they are simply SUPPORTING it along with other supporters. I don't see anyone ranting about any other organization or person(s) who happen to be on the list of supporters.
Get a clue and stick to the issue at hand rather than using every article that slightly mentions the LDS Church as an opportunity to go off ranting irradically about why you dislike the LDS Church.
The LDS Church didn't initiate the removel of malt beverages, they are simply SUPPORTING it along with other supporters. I don't see anyone ranting about any other organization or person(s) who happen to be on the list of supporters.
Get a clue and stick to the issue at hand rather than using every article that slightly mentions the LDS Church as an opportunity to go off ranting irradically about why you dislike the LDS Church.
Jack from Ark | 12:23 p.m. Jan. 18, 2008
Hey Guys, this is not a Mormon thing. I live in a dry county in Arkansas and
guess what, we have fewer drunk driving deaths and injuries than those of other
surrounding counties that sell Liquor. Liquor needs to be sold in liquor stores
so it can be controlled. If you pass a law controlling these types of spirits
then those that want them will know where to go to get them and those of us that
don't will feel comfortable that the appropriate precautions are in effect
to protect us.
Anonymous | 12:26 p.m. Jan. 18, 2008
A bill is being drafted, it doesn't mean it will win. Take a look at how
laws are made people. You still have a say in things but some people are just
too lazy to act on what they truly want or believe, allowing laws to pass
without any effort to stop them. Perhaps those of you who are against it should
take some action in stating your cause and try to remember that the matter is
the alco-pops not the LDS Church. Has anyone posted about Art Brown and his
group who are also supporting this or what about James Olse and his group who
are against this?
It looks like pop--but it's beer | 12:27 p.m. Jan. 18, 2008
The problem is that "alco-pop" is packaged to look like soda or an
energy drink -- not beer. So when a checker is scanning all those items, they
might not catch it, and may accidentally sell it to someone under-age. OR
someone under-age may intentionally try to buy it by sneaking it in with other
items. That is the REAL problem here (underage procurement of alcohol) and why
they want to move it to the liquor stores. Give the whole LDS Church trying to
rule the world a rest.
PW | 12:51 p.m. Jan. 18, 2008
It's true, alcohol is responsible for many preventable deaths and health
disorders, but if you're going to make legislation regulating it, then it
would only seem fair to regulate (and tax) another commodity that's
responsible for even more preventable deaths and scores of mental problems:
religion.
Anonymous | 12:52 p.m. Jan. 18, 2008
You MUST be over 21 to enter a liquor store. You must be breathing to enter a
grocery store. Do any of you see a difference?
A teen willing to break the law and drink may also be willing to shoplift. How hard is it to slip a "soda" into the baggie pants?
Do you really need a "spirit" on the way home? You could go the liquor store and buy enough for the month or a year. If this law can stop ONE teen per grocery or convenience store from drinking, would the inconvenience be worth it? What if it stops ONE family from dying a year? What if it stops a child you know and love from becoming an alcoholic? What if it stops you or someone else from drinking and driving?
This isn�t abolition.
A teen willing to break the law and drink may also be willing to shoplift. How hard is it to slip a "soda" into the baggie pants?
Do you really need a "spirit" on the way home? You could go the liquor store and buy enough for the month or a year. If this law can stop ONE teen per grocery or convenience store from drinking, would the inconvenience be worth it? What if it stops ONE family from dying a year? What if it stops a child you know and love from becoming an alcoholic? What if it stops you or someone else from drinking and driving?
This isn�t abolition.
tired | 12:53 p.m. Jan. 18, 2008
I am tired of the phrase "separation between church and state." There
is nothing in the constitution that states this. In addition, alcohol IS wrong.
For beleivers of ANY christian faith, read the bible. It speaks out against
drunkeness in the New Testament. What causes drunkeness? So, if the LDS church
is with this (notice, there with it. They didn't initiate it.)it is merely
standing up for priciples it teaches. How can anyone state that this is a Mormon
issue, when it should be a Christian issue. Alcohol has ALWAYS made people do
stupid and rediculous things. Alcohol is bad. It always has been. Even if you
beleive otherwise, it doesn't change the fact. But you are free to do as
you choose, but there are consequences for our actions.
AJ | 1:06 p.m. Jan. 18, 2008
Its amazing to me that all of LDS Members who support this are probably all
republicans....since being LDS pretty much automatically means your a
republican. Somebody tell me this. When did the republican party become the
party of HUGE government? Let me guess. You want small government as long as
nobody does anything you dont want to tolerate. You want free agency as long as
nobody chooses to disagree. If you believe there is only ONE right answer and
only ONE truth, you dont really believe in free agency.
NKUMom | 1:16 p.m. Jan. 18, 2008
It is so hard for me to believe that the people in Utah do not have better
things to do than beat each other up on issues like this - why not use your
energies to make your communities a better place to live. I have lived in the
midwest and south all my life and not only do we have seperate stores, we have
complete dry counties and you can't buy an alcoholic drink on sundays or
election day. No ones quality of life is deminished by this law.Can someone
explain to me why it is Mormon vs. Nonmormon in Utah? Having lost a 17 yr. old
brother in-law to a drunk driver - I for one beleive anything we can do to keep
our families safer is worth the sacrifice of a few inconvienanced individuals.
Fredd | 1:17 p.m. Jan. 18, 2008
Lots of misinformation going on. First, believe it or not my names not Fredd.
Second I don't live in Utah and I drink. I live where hard liquor is sold
in supermarkets. My earlier post was a JOKE!! Second, I lived in Utah for five
years and travel fairly extensively. Utah is not a hard place to get a drink.
It is confusing. My first restaurant in Utah (Olive Garden) didn't display
or advertise alcohol in any way so I assumed they didn't derve it. My
worst example if restrictive alcohol rules was going to Applebbe's, having
a 45 minute wait and not being able to have a beer while waiting . Easy enough
to work around. As far as LDS they shoud influence their members and members
should influence the government. When the institution makes public
pronouncements on pending law they unduly influence the process. If you are
born and raised in Utah you may not notice it. All I can say is Monday was a
great night to go out to eat and Sunday was a great day to go to Lagoon and the
mall.
Faux Separation | 1:27 p.m. Jan. 18, 2008
Democracy is about voting your values. Separation of church and state has
nothing to do with this argument.
It would be ridiculous to argue that alcohol does not have an enormous negative impact on society. My sister was hit by a drunk driver. To state that Utahns cannot regulate alcohol just because of Church's stance on alcohol is utter nonsense. Now if the legislature forced you to go to an LDS chapel every Sunday morning, that would be a violation of the separation of church and state.
So stop complaining about the legislature regulating the sale of alcohol. Or find a new place to live. Here in CA you can buy alcohol anywhere...we'll take you if you hate Utah that much.
It would be ridiculous to argue that alcohol does not have an enormous negative impact on society. My sister was hit by a drunk driver. To state that Utahns cannot regulate alcohol just because of Church's stance on alcohol is utter nonsense. Now if the legislature forced you to go to an LDS chapel every Sunday morning, that would be a violation of the separation of church and state.
So stop complaining about the legislature regulating the sale of alcohol. Or find a new place to live. Here in CA you can buy alcohol anywhere...we'll take you if you hate Utah that much.
Dan | 1:47 p.m. Jan. 18, 2008
As a citizen and parent I am concerned that that some will stoop to such levels.
Company�s going through the back door to sell alcoholic
beverages to underage children. If grocery stores carry it children will buy
it.
Anonymous | 2:00 p.m. Jan. 18, 2008
"Tuttle said: To Allow the sale of distilled spirits in the grocery and
convenience stores promotes underage drinking...." --- Yes, I agree that
"distilled spirits" should not be sold in grocery stores, but these
FLAVORED MALT BEVERAGES (which is what they are) should remain in the grocery
stores. These are NO worse than beer. If these drinks make kids want to drink
then what about the "flavored" beer - I've seen Raspberry Wheat,
Pumpkin Ale at Halloween, Blueberry Wheat, etc. Are those going to be targeted
next?
And to the guy who said that I can just go to the liquor store and buy a month's worth of these things instead of stopping off on the way home. Can I ask if you are going to pony up the difference between what they would charge in the grocery store (around $7 a six pack) and what they would charge in the liqour store with their 80% markup. It would make it about $12.50 a six pack.
And to the guy who said that I can just go to the liquor store and buy a month's worth of these things instead of stopping off on the way home. Can I ask if you are going to pony up the difference between what they would charge in the grocery store (around $7 a six pack) and what they would charge in the liqour store with their 80% markup. It would make it about $12.50 a six pack.
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For a state that has a large travel industry, making the liquor laws even more restrictive would seem to be economic suicide. We're already the laughing stock of the country with our current idotic, arcane assortment of liquor laws.