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Driving cards under fire
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Utah Patriot | 5:30 a.m. Jan. 17, 2008
Repeal the driving priveledges, revoke all perks to illegal aliens and DEPORT
every single man, woman and child NOW!
JWK | 6:40 a.m. Jan. 17, 2008
What part of illegal does Utah not understand?
samhill | 6:53 a.m. Jan. 17, 2008
And all of this because we can't come up with a Federal government (where
responsibility for immigration, legal and otherwise, rests) that can figure out
how to fix this decades-old problem.
Worst of all, this problem isn't the biggest or worst (by a long shot) we, as a nation, face.
National competance MUST include governmental competance.
Worst of all, this problem isn't the biggest or worst (by a long shot) we, as a nation, face.
National competance MUST include governmental competance.
Comments continue below
DahktaD | 6:53 a.m. Jan. 17, 2008
Utah, unwittingly, exasberated the problem of illegal aliens migrating to Utah
through the issuance of Driver Privilege Cards. As one of 7 states that allow
illegals privileges, it has become a magnet for illegals. To comply with the
REAL ID ACT, Utah has it's work cut out for it.
The stupid arguments made by some "issuing a DPC will let 'us' know who they are"; "they will buy insurance for their car", "make the roads safer".
These and other arguments are absolutely naive and/or bogus.
Illegals use fraud to get IDs in the first place. Hit and Run...still common; Insurance, sure for getting their car registered, then they cancel it.
And what of the Driver's Licenses issued to illegals with a Tax ID Number...the numbers start with 9xx-xx-xxxx ? They are still out there, and valid, but being used by illegals.
The state needs to start from scratch...verify IDs and social security numbers, similiar to the requirements placed on employers. IF the the ID can't be verified, license is revoked. Period.
Illegals DO NOT have a right to driving privileges. Nor do they have a 'right' to any services designed for citizens.
The stupid arguments made by some "issuing a DPC will let 'us' know who they are"; "they will buy insurance for their car", "make the roads safer".
These and other arguments are absolutely naive and/or bogus.
Illegals use fraud to get IDs in the first place. Hit and Run...still common; Insurance, sure for getting their car registered, then they cancel it.
And what of the Driver's Licenses issued to illegals with a Tax ID Number...the numbers start with 9xx-xx-xxxx ? They are still out there, and valid, but being used by illegals.
The state needs to start from scratch...verify IDs and social security numbers, similiar to the requirements placed on employers. IF the the ID can't be verified, license is revoked. Period.
Illegals DO NOT have a right to driving privileges. Nor do they have a 'right' to any services designed for citizens.
This is nuts! | 7:14 a.m. Jan. 17, 2008
Someone needs to make a presentation to our lawmakers to define the words
aiding, abetting, harboring, unlawful presence, illegal...It seems like such an
easy concept to the VOTERS. Why are they having all this trouble with it?
Perhaps a visit with Elliot Spitzer, Gov of New York, might help as well.
The people who put you in office don't want you to grant driving privileges to illegal aliens.
Perhaps a visit with Elliot Spitzer, Gov of New York, might help as well.
The people who put you in office don't want you to grant driving privileges to illegal aliens.
Anonymous | 7:44 a.m. Jan. 17, 2008
useing the cards ILLEAGLLY? What do you ecpect from someone who is already
vommitting a criminal act! What a joke, All this has done is entice these
ILLEGALS to be here. The Federal Immigration Act makes it ILLEGAL to ENTICE
anyone ot come or stay in the United States .
Go out and pick up the drivers cards and while at it. pick up the holders who are ILLEGAL
Go out and pick up the drivers cards and while at it. pick up the holders who are ILLEGAL
uncannygunman | 8:01 a.m. Jan. 17, 2008
Forget legal or illegal for the moment. Driving is an activity that we do not
allow without a license, and we do not grant that license unless we are
reasonably certain who we are giving it to and how old they are. If we are sure
enough of their identity to allow them to drive on our roads, it only makes
sense to allow them to use their driver license/permit cards to be used for ANY
identification purpose that is LESS important than the need to know who is
driving on our roads. And frankly, maybe with the exception of obtaining
citizenship, that's just about every purpose I can think of.
It is just not a crisis that illegals, or anyone else, may be using their driver cards to legally purchase a beer!
It is just not a crisis that illegals, or anyone else, may be using their driver cards to legally purchase a beer!
Daw's missing it | 8:36 a.m. Jan. 17, 2008
Someone needs to tell Mr. Daw that it is ILLEGAL to drive without insurance. He
asks, "if I'm dirving without insurance and get in a wreck, who pays
for it?" YOU DO, after you pay your fine and/or do jail time. Don't
provide for one illegal activity (sneaking in to the country) by more easily
fascilitating another illegal activity (driving without insurance).
MadMax | 8:55 a.m. Jan. 17, 2008
It seems that Utah lawmakers do not understand that the citizens of the state of
Utah want our illegal immigrant crisis solved. This means work place
identification and verification, resident status verified upon detention or
arrest, requiring English as the official language for doing busisness with all
government entities (Isn't that the law now?) and denial of all but
emergency services to illegal residents. Some may say this is harsh and
uncaring. However, ignoring law breakers is not in the public interest.
Identity theft costs millions of dollars to citizens and the public at large.
Crimes committed by illegal immigrants comprise a large portion of the total
number of crimes reported and investigated by law enforcement agencies. Our
schools and health care systems are nearly broken as a result of the influx of
illegal immigrants. Human costs to illegal immigrants of fear and danger of
abuse from predators takling advantage of them is great. The bottom line is
that failure to stem the tide of illegal immigration is causing pain, suffering,
hardship and monetary costs for all citizens and illegal immigrants alike. Stop
it and discontinue facilitation of illegals residing here in America. No more
Mr. Nice Guy!
CW | 9:03 a.m. Jan. 17, 2008
I'll tell you,
What a bunch of selfish, mean-spirited, angry, mob-like mentalities spew their ignorance on these sites.
There are many people (immigrants) that came here just to survive. US policy has created this problem.
On one hand our government says they cannot work. On the other hand, they hand out tax ID numbers (so they can work).
Then, the Government doesn't want to take responsisbilty, now they want the BUSINESSES to be the watchdog. Do you want to spend thousands of dollars to do the Federal Government's job?
Now, they want the police, who protect your home and family, to start finding Illegal immigrants! Are you going to stand for this?
I have a wife, here illegally. When she came, this immigration stuff was not on the radar. We met, married, and had NO IDEA what a mess was coming for our family.
She applied THREE times to come legally. They took her money (a fortune for her) each time, then said NO.
Brothers and Sisters...we need some rationalism and compassion right now. Please.
They are NOT all CRIMINALS.
Now we have two daughters married to US citizens also. Now what? Compassion.
What a bunch of selfish, mean-spirited, angry, mob-like mentalities spew their ignorance on these sites.
There are many people (immigrants) that came here just to survive. US policy has created this problem.
On one hand our government says they cannot work. On the other hand, they hand out tax ID numbers (so they can work).
Then, the Government doesn't want to take responsisbilty, now they want the BUSINESSES to be the watchdog. Do you want to spend thousands of dollars to do the Federal Government's job?
Now, they want the police, who protect your home and family, to start finding Illegal immigrants! Are you going to stand for this?
I have a wife, here illegally. When she came, this immigration stuff was not on the radar. We met, married, and had NO IDEA what a mess was coming for our family.
She applied THREE times to come legally. They took her money (a fortune for her) each time, then said NO.
Brothers and Sisters...we need some rationalism and compassion right now. Please.
They are NOT all CRIMINALS.
Now we have two daughters married to US citizens also. Now what? Compassion.
Stop the Insanity | 9:12 a.m. Jan. 17, 2008
The easier a community makes if for illegal immigrants to live a legal life,
more and more illegal immigrants will move into the community.
correction | 9:30 a.m. Jan. 17, 2008
Samhill, the quality that you think the government lacks is spelled
"competence."
revoke the Id's | 9:36 a.m. Jan. 17, 2008
As someone who has been in a car accident and hit by an illegal immigrant
driver, who did of course did not have insurance.
I agree, repeal their driving priveleges. It's unfair to any American Citizen who obeys the laws and has insurance. To have to pay for someone who shouldn't be here anyways.
Why we give them any rights beyond working priveleges is beyond me.
If we take away their driving priveleges, then maybe they will get the hint to either leave the state or go through the legal routes and apply for citizenship.
It may be possible that if we revoke their driving priveleges maybe in time less accidents with uninsured drivers will mean lower car insurance rates for the rest of us? Wishful thinking I suppose...
I agree, repeal their driving priveleges. It's unfair to any American Citizen who obeys the laws and has insurance. To have to pay for someone who shouldn't be here anyways.
Why we give them any rights beyond working priveleges is beyond me.
If we take away their driving priveleges, then maybe they will get the hint to either leave the state or go through the legal routes and apply for citizenship.
It may be possible that if we revoke their driving priveleges maybe in time less accidents with uninsured drivers will mean lower car insurance rates for the rest of us? Wishful thinking I suppose...
Works great | 9:38 a.m. Jan. 17, 2008
I think the system as is works great. Economic disparity means we get plenty of
people willing to come work at a disadvantage, and illegal status means we can
send them home as soon as they are economically burdensome. We have a
convenient low cost workforce with no legal protections. Who would want to
change that?
Like Orwell taught us - make everything (one) illegal and we (the government) have a pretext to do whatever we want with them.
Like Orwell taught us - make everything (one) illegal and we (the government) have a pretext to do whatever we want with them.
deport the uninsured | 9:41 a.m. Jan. 17, 2008
As someone who has been in a car accident with an uninsured motorist who, of
course, might have been an illegal immigrant, I say we should deport everyone
who drives while uninsured. They are illegal after all.
Hit Twice | 9:55 a.m. Jan. 17, 2008
I've been hit twice by illegal aliens (presumably, because neither cound
speak passable English). Neither had auto insurance. One went so far as to
provide false contact and insurance information. (The insurance card belonged to
someone else and had been expired for a year.) I ended up tracking him down from
his license plate. After a disconcerting "conversation" he sent me a
letter about his daughter being sick and that he was unable to pay. I
don't have a lot of money myself, but here I am, stuck with a crashed-in
quarter panel and bent door. My car was stationary, at a gas-pump when this guy
hit it, by the way.
I have nothing against people who want to work. But they need to respect our process, and abide by our standards. I've been to over 13 states in Mexico. I loved them all, but would never wish their safety standards upon us here in the U.S. Enough of these ham-handed measures to inconvenience illegal immigrants. They should be forced to leave or forfeit the right to stay permanently.
I have nothing against people who want to work. But they need to respect our process, and abide by our standards. I've been to over 13 states in Mexico. I loved them all, but would never wish their safety standards upon us here in the U.S. Enough of these ham-handed measures to inconvenience illegal immigrants. They should be forced to leave or forfeit the right to stay permanently.
Sarah | 10:05 a.m. Jan. 17, 2008
"Illegal." "Undocumented." Sounds like a no-brainer to me.
You either do things the right way, the legal way, or you have NO privileges.
Period.
We shouldn't be finding ways for illegal and undocumented people to get things such as driving cards and insurance. They should not be driving a motor vehicle if they don't have a valid driver's license. They should go through the proper steps just as U.S. citizens have, or those who are here LEGALLY and DOCUMENTED. We welcome with open arms all who are legal and documented. Every privilege is yours. If you're not, then there's the door.
It's quite simple, really.
We shouldn't be finding ways for illegal and undocumented people to get things such as driving cards and insurance. They should not be driving a motor vehicle if they don't have a valid driver's license. They should go through the proper steps just as U.S. citizens have, or those who are here LEGALLY and DOCUMENTED. We welcome with open arms all who are legal and documented. Every privilege is yours. If you're not, then there's the door.
It's quite simple, really.
Wes | 10:13 a.m. Jan. 17, 2008
I wonder if a soul, when received in heaven, is identified as legal or illegal?
Moses was told very clearly to welcome the aliens outside the borders of Israel, and Jesus said ALL of His father's created beings were of equal status in His eyes.
But not so here in our land. We collectively see the brown skin and hear the foreign tongue and assume superiority - that our lives' and souls hold more value than theirs. Us and them. Wealth and poverty. Divide and conquer. Sad.
Moses was told very clearly to welcome the aliens outside the borders of Israel, and Jesus said ALL of His father's created beings were of equal status in His eyes.
But not so here in our land. We collectively see the brown skin and hear the foreign tongue and assume superiority - that our lives' and souls hold more value than theirs. Us and them. Wealth and poverty. Divide and conquer. Sad.
The point of the card | 10:15 a.m. Jan. 17, 2008
I believe the point of the driving privilege card was to solve some of the
uninsured problem, given that we aren't going to immediately solve the
illegal resident problem. I don't see how eliminating the card is going to
help people like those on this forum who commented about being hit by uninsured
illegal residents.
One idea would be to keep the cards, but say that illegal residents caught driving uninsured will be detained and turned over to INS. Then again, this might just encourage more hit and run.
One idea would be to keep the cards, but say that illegal residents caught driving uninsured will be detained and turned over to INS. Then again, this might just encourage more hit and run.
We forget | 10:21 a.m. Jan. 17, 2008
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe
free; send these, the homeless tempest-tossed, to me; I lift my lamp beside the
golden door."
We so often forget what has made us great.
We so often forget what has made us great.
illegal is criminal | 10:30 a.m. Jan. 17, 2008
CW, if your wife is here illegally, regardless of how long or how many kids she
has, she's a criminal, which, by definition, is someone who knowingly
breaks the law. Giving driving cards because they are going to drive anyway is
like giving alcoholic booze 'cause they're going to drink anyway. We
don't need to facilitate illegal behavior!
Anonymous | 10:35 a.m. Jan. 17, 2008
To Wes,
Christ also taught to render unto Caesar...
Obey the laws. If you don't like the laws vote to change them. Just because you don't like a law, you can't simply choose to disobey it.
It isn�t about skin color, or we would be asking all Hispanics/Latinos to leave. We want ALL, which means everyone, of the ILLEGAL immigrants to be deported and not be given incentives to return illegally. We welcome all who come here legally. This is not a race issue. It is a legal one.
Christ also taught to render unto Caesar...
Obey the laws. If you don't like the laws vote to change them. Just because you don't like a law, you can't simply choose to disobey it.
It isn�t about skin color, or we would be asking all Hispanics/Latinos to leave. We want ALL, which means everyone, of the ILLEGAL immigrants to be deported and not be given incentives to return illegally. We welcome all who come here legally. This is not a race issue. It is a legal one.
Kjaerbye | 10:53 a.m. Jan. 17, 2008
Illegal boarder crossers who come to Utah, shall not have any benefits as legal
immigrants and born US Citizens! No exceptions, they broke the Law to come here
regarless if they are willing to do jobs other Americans won't do. To put
it simple, NO WELFARE, NO WORK..NO EAT...and NO FREE LUNUCH!!
All Illegal Boarder Crossers should be deported back to Mexico or their birth country at once!! No EXCEPTIONS!!! The Kjaerbye's came to Utah in 1870 from Denmark, they Legally immigranted and became US Citizens! I strongly agree with Legal immigration and not with Illegal Boarder Crossers!
All Illegal Boarder Crossers should be deported back to Mexico or their birth country at once!! No EXCEPTIONS!!! The Kjaerbye's came to Utah in 1870 from Denmark, they Legally immigranted and became US Citizens! I strongly agree with Legal immigration and not with Illegal Boarder Crossers!
Sarah | 10:53 a.m. Jan. 17, 2008
P.S.
I completely agree with being compassionate, with clothing the naked, feeding the hungry, and all of these scripture references as I'm sure many do who are posting here. I also completely agree in following the laws of the land. Laws are made for a reason. It is what is called living in a civilized society. We have laws, rewards and punishments. If you do not obey the law there are punishments. If you obey the law you have your rewards and privileges. Same thing with spiritual laws.
Without rules and laws we would have complete chaos. We see this chaos on a daily basis when laws are broken.
No matter what citizenship you are, there is a legal process. We should not bend or break rules or create loopholes for those who are here ILlegally.
I completely agree with being compassionate, with clothing the naked, feeding the hungry, and all of these scripture references as I'm sure many do who are posting here. I also completely agree in following the laws of the land. Laws are made for a reason. It is what is called living in a civilized society. We have laws, rewards and punishments. If you do not obey the law there are punishments. If you obey the law you have your rewards and privileges. Same thing with spiritual laws.
Without rules and laws we would have complete chaos. We see this chaos on a daily basis when laws are broken.
No matter what citizenship you are, there is a legal process. We should not bend or break rules or create loopholes for those who are here ILlegally.
Anonymous Also | 10:57 a.m. Jan. 17, 2008
When I took my Driver's Test 2 years ago in St. George, I was given a
written Test. As I was taking it, I noticed that hispanics were shown a book
and all they had to do is point at pictures. When I saw that taking place, I
went to the counter and asked if I could also have that kind of test, and they
told Me NO, THEY DECIDE WHO DOES WRITTEN AND WHO CAN POINT AT PICTURES. This
isn't fair, if the state wants to cater to special interests, I should at
least have the option to take the same type of test as hispanics get.
absolute laws | 11:01 a.m. Jan. 17, 2008
How many of you "they broke the law so they have no privileges" folks
ever speed?
Laws are not the absolute, set in stone, end all divine word of consequences that many of you seem to think. We could just as easily legislate that undocumented workers are now legal as we could deport them all. In fact, it would be easier.
Yes, that's amnesty. We should be talking about how to reasonably, sensibly first, reform the immigration laws and system to correctly regulate the inflow and second, deal with the existing undocumented population. Some form of "amnesty" will be a part of any reasonable solution, but somehow your vocal few have browbeaten our policy makers into total fear of that topic.
To pretend that we could go door to door, identify every undocumented person, ship them to the edge of the country and drop them back outside without bringing a whole bunch of negative consequences to our society, economy, and national psyche, is pure folly.
Laws are not the absolute, set in stone, end all divine word of consequences that many of you seem to think. We could just as easily legislate that undocumented workers are now legal as we could deport them all. In fact, it would be easier.
Yes, that's amnesty. We should be talking about how to reasonably, sensibly first, reform the immigration laws and system to correctly regulate the inflow and second, deal with the existing undocumented population. Some form of "amnesty" will be a part of any reasonable solution, but somehow your vocal few have browbeaten our policy makers into total fear of that topic.
To pretend that we could go door to door, identify every undocumented person, ship them to the edge of the country and drop them back outside without bringing a whole bunch of negative consequences to our society, economy, and national psyche, is pure folly.
GWC | 11:02 a.m. Jan. 17, 2008
How can a person who is in the county illegally do ANYTHING legally in the
county. KICK THEM OUT, NOW!!
John Reynolds | 11:05 a.m. Jan. 17, 2008
If the state knows there are 41,000 illegals in the state (# of drivers cards
issued), why then are they not arrested according to our laws ?
Is the state not abiding by/enforcing our laws ?
It seems to me that our legislature is NOT doing its job for us in this issue.
Is the state not abiding by/enforcing our laws ?
It seems to me that our legislature is NOT doing its job for us in this issue.
jackhp | 11:15 a.m. Jan. 17, 2008
"They should not be driving a motor vehicle if they don't have a valid
driver's license."
Well, duh!
Now, do tell, how are you going to verify that everyone on the road has a valid driver's license? Random checks? Pull over all the brown people and say "Papers please . . . " I mean, it is the 'cans you're worried about, right? ALL those brownies need to be double and triple checked to make sure they're here legally, right? Might as well pull them over when we see'em, right?
Man, what a bunch of ignorant dolts on this thread. Revoking driving privilege cards is not going to make anyone go away. The only thing it will do is lead to more untested AND uninsured drivers on the roads.
Well, duh!
Now, do tell, how are you going to verify that everyone on the road has a valid driver's license? Random checks? Pull over all the brown people and say "Papers please . . . " I mean, it is the 'cans you're worried about, right? ALL those brownies need to be double and triple checked to make sure they're here legally, right? Might as well pull them over when we see'em, right?
Man, what a bunch of ignorant dolts on this thread. Revoking driving privilege cards is not going to make anyone go away. The only thing it will do is lead to more untested AND uninsured drivers on the roads.
DK | 11:54 a.m. Jan. 17, 2008
We need to quit handing things out to them, then maybe they will leave.
Arizona made it harder for them to get a job there, now they are packing up their families and returning to Mexico. Now, Mexico is seeing a huge increase in citizenship applications for the children of the illegals returning.
Why are our tax dollars being spent to teach them in Spanish in our public schools?
My once nice older neighborhood is now being over run with illegals. After the houseing slump, I won't be able to sell my house due to all the illegals.
You can't even go to the park any more in the summer without feeling you stepped into Mexico.
Im tired of having to now look for instructions etc. in English. ie. merchandise, entrances to stores, menus etc. What the &$#*!
In fact, the other day I noticed the lettering for an emergency exit on a UTA bus......Spanish was in the larger font. We are losing ourselves by trying to play nice with everyone.
Arizona made it harder for them to get a job there, now they are packing up their families and returning to Mexico. Now, Mexico is seeing a huge increase in citizenship applications for the children of the illegals returning.
Why are our tax dollars being spent to teach them in Spanish in our public schools?
My once nice older neighborhood is now being over run with illegals. After the houseing slump, I won't be able to sell my house due to all the illegals.
You can't even go to the park any more in the summer without feeling you stepped into Mexico.
Im tired of having to now look for instructions etc. in English. ie. merchandise, entrances to stores, menus etc. What the &$#*!
In fact, the other day I noticed the lettering for an emergency exit on a UTA bus......Spanish was in the larger font. We are losing ourselves by trying to play nice with everyone.
Lisa | 11:59 a.m. Jan. 17, 2008
to jackhp:
Sounds like you're included in the "bunch of ignorant dolts on this thread."
You can't tell which people are on the road with a valid driver's license until they are pulled over for some infraction. If you are a U.S. citizen without a valid driver's license and you have been pulled over, you have broken the law and should be dealt with accordingly with fines, tickets, etc.
If you are an illegal alien driving without a valid license, out you go. Since you are (1) here illegally, (2) you are driving without a valid license because you are here illegally, (3) you have no insurance because you don't have a license because you are here illegally.
It would solve many problems because the illegal aliens (more than just " 'cans" as you rudely suggest) would have a great big incentive not to get behind the wheel of a car and drive. They would be afraid they would be pulled over and deported. If I were here illegally I'd say to myself "No way, I'm not going to drive and risk getting deported if I get pulled over because my taillight is out." Hence I wouldn't drive.
Sounds like you're included in the "bunch of ignorant dolts on this thread."
You can't tell which people are on the road with a valid driver's license until they are pulled over for some infraction. If you are a U.S. citizen without a valid driver's license and you have been pulled over, you have broken the law and should be dealt with accordingly with fines, tickets, etc.
If you are an illegal alien driving without a valid license, out you go. Since you are (1) here illegally, (2) you are driving without a valid license because you are here illegally, (3) you have no insurance because you don't have a license because you are here illegally.
It would solve many problems because the illegal aliens (more than just " 'cans" as you rudely suggest) would have a great big incentive not to get behind the wheel of a car and drive. They would be afraid they would be pulled over and deported. If I were here illegally I'd say to myself "No way, I'm not going to drive and risk getting deported if I get pulled over because my taillight is out." Hence I wouldn't drive.
Sendem all home now | 11:59 a.m. Jan. 17, 2008
If they are here illegally THEY ARE A CRIMINAL. What part of criminal lover are
you all?
jackhp | 12:21 p.m. Jan. 17, 2008
Lisa, thank you for making MY point. You can't tell if they're
driving illegally until they get pulled over or they are in an accident. I
think you're wrong about anyone not driving simply out of the fear of being
pulled over. They're going to drive, legally or not. Our economy depends
on being mobile and with our public transportation being negligibly effective
those who need mobility will drive. And when they drive, without being tested
and without insurance, they're bound to get into more accidents and cause
more economic hardship to those who are involved in those accidents.
So, here's the question: Do we want more drivers on the roads who are untested and uninsured? Or do we want to make sure as many drivers as possible are tested for competency and verify that they have insurance? I'll go for the latter . . .
So, here's the question: Do we want more drivers on the roads who are untested and uninsured? Or do we want to make sure as many drivers as possible are tested for competency and verify that they have insurance? I'll go for the latter . . .
WBM5 | 12:26 p.m. Jan. 17, 2008
To jackhp: I feel that law enforcement used to do a lot more random stops.
They can randomly stop anyone/everyone. It would be wrong/illegal to only stop
people of one skin color. I am in favor of being stopped. I keep my car in
safe condition. I pay for insurance, I keep my state issued license on me when I
drive, I wear my seat belt. I am not afraid to be stopped.
If you break the law (which ever law that is) you take the risk of facing the consequences. If you speed then you could get a ticket. If you are here illegally you take the risk of being deported. This is reality!
If I go to another country and I don't follow there laws should I tell them I don't care what their laws are? Should I not follow them? Should I deserve different treatment than others? Should I pretend I don't understand what it means to have laws and rules just because I don't speak the language? What about reality?
So, I am supposed to feel badly because their country stinks. I say go home and fix your problems and stop making problems for others.
If you break the law (which ever law that is) you take the risk of facing the consequences. If you speed then you could get a ticket. If you are here illegally you take the risk of being deported. This is reality!
If I go to another country and I don't follow there laws should I tell them I don't care what their laws are? Should I not follow them? Should I deserve different treatment than others? Should I pretend I don't understand what it means to have laws and rules just because I don't speak the language? What about reality?
So, I am supposed to feel badly because their country stinks. I say go home and fix your problems and stop making problems for others.
to WBM5 | 12:49 p.m. Jan. 17, 2008
I lived in California back in the 60's. We had the CHIPs offericers
stopping and doing random checks on steady basis. They would check driver
license, car registration, and simple safty things like horn, wipers lights. It
was not based on race etc but rather on the street a person happened to be
driving. The street was changed all the time.
I never had a problem with it.
I never had a problem with it.
Anonymous | 12:51 p.m. Jan. 17, 2008
Taking away the DPC will only cause more problems. Previously they forged/stoll
birth certificates and SSN. At least with the DPC this has been slowed.
Solve the real problem, illegal immigration. Restricting them from obtaining insurance only hurts the rest of us
Solve the real problem, illegal immigration. Restricting them from obtaining insurance only hurts the rest of us
jackhp | 12:57 p.m. Jan. 17, 2008
WBM5,
You've got to be kidding! You're in favor of random stops? Random stops are the antithesis of freedom! I guess you're in favor of having your phones and Internet monitored as well? Maybe you'd like to have an RFID implant so your every move can be monitored? I say, "No thank you!" I'd rather live in a country where a relatively few people get away with minor infractions while the majority of us go about enjoying our freedom from oppressive fascism and government intrusion.
You've got to be kidding! You're in favor of random stops? Random stops are the antithesis of freedom! I guess you're in favor of having your phones and Internet monitored as well? Maybe you'd like to have an RFID implant so your every move can be monitored? I say, "No thank you!" I'd rather live in a country where a relatively few people get away with minor infractions while the majority of us go about enjoying our freedom from oppressive fascism and government intrusion.
2 Wes 10:15 | 1:27 p.m. Jan. 17, 2008
Turning this into a religious issue is obsurd, but since you went there... Of
course your immigration status doesn't matter there but... Do you think
people are going to be able to sneek into heaven who don't belong there?
"illegally"?
Will there be Coyotes charging people fees to help sneak them into heaven? and special rules like temporary heaven resident cards and people petitioning for heavenly benefits who somehow got in by sneaking in through some back gate?
Just something to think about if your going to use heaven as proof that being somewhere "illegally" doesn't matter.
Will there be Coyotes charging people fees to help sneak them into heaven? and special rules like temporary heaven resident cards and people petitioning for heavenly benefits who somehow got in by sneaking in through some back gate?
Just something to think about if your going to use heaven as proof that being somewhere "illegally" doesn't matter.
Send them back | 1:37 p.m. Jan. 17, 2008
jackhp
Personally if it meant getting rid of illegals, and stopping the massive problems we have with everything from illegals to terrorism.
I'm all in favor of having my calls monitored, and being stopped every now and then to show my Id. It's a small inconvenience if it would solve an even huger problem of getting rid of illegals, and their mooching off of American Citizens.
Personally if it meant getting rid of illegals, and stopping the massive problems we have with everything from illegals to terrorism.
I'm all in favor of having my calls monitored, and being stopped every now and then to show my Id. It's a small inconvenience if it would solve an even huger problem of getting rid of illegals, and their mooching off of American Citizens.
curtis | 2:10 p.m. Jan. 17, 2008
Illegal immigration can only be fixed by the federal government. Any attempt
by the states will cause more problems then it fixes. The boarder must be
secured. This is one more stuppid idea to push illegals into living a more
illegal lifestyle. This is about as stuppid as pushing them into unemployment
by holding there employers accountable for them being here illegally. What will
have is 10 million mexicans with no jobs, no id, no insurance, and rather then
having a sense of gratitiude to be here, it will be a us against them attitude.
hey Curtis | 2:35 p.m. Jan. 17, 2008
look at the results of laws passed in Oklahoma and Arizona. As a result of
those laws, illegals are leaving those states in droves. It is a national
problem, but that doesn't mean local state action can't bring pressure
to bear as well.
WBM5 | 3:06 p.m. Jan. 17, 2008
I have been stopped randomly by law officers. it didn't bother me at all.
They didn't follow me home or supervise me. Of the 2 times I recall
everyone was stopped. They didn't profile anyone. They looked at all the
paper work, checked tail lights etc., and then all moved on except those who
were in violation.
There is a difference between random stops and what jackhp jumps to. As usual someone has to be a drama queen. Focus here, please.
Breaking laws = consequences.
Random stops for all, does not equal implants. Jack if you want less control then buy your own private island invite all who want to live there to come and do as they please. I will come to visit you and see if you like it. Of course don't impose any laws or standards, don't expect services which I am sure you take for granted such as clean water 24/7.
There is a difference between random stops and what jackhp jumps to. As usual someone has to be a drama queen. Focus here, please.
Breaking laws = consequences.
Random stops for all, does not equal implants. Jack if you want less control then buy your own private island invite all who want to live there to come and do as they please. I will come to visit you and see if you like it. Of course don't impose any laws or standards, don't expect services which I am sure you take for granted such as clean water 24/7.
jackhp | 3:33 p.m. Jan. 17, 2008
Wow, who's the drama queen now WBM5?
Your scenario is not a random stop. It is a checkpoint type situation, such as a DUI checkpoint, where everyone is stopped. These types of checkpoints generally must be announced before hand and certainly do not meet the standard of "random".
Police officers do not have the right to stop you randomly for no cause, at least not yet. But when and if they do get that ability, as apparently you want them to, I'm sure there will be safeguards against them "randomly" stopping mostly brown people who look "illegal" . . . right?
Your scenario is not a random stop. It is a checkpoint type situation, such as a DUI checkpoint, where everyone is stopped. These types of checkpoints generally must be announced before hand and certainly do not meet the standard of "random".
Police officers do not have the right to stop you randomly for no cause, at least not yet. But when and if they do get that ability, as apparently you want them to, I'm sure there will be safeguards against them "randomly" stopping mostly brown people who look "illegal" . . . right?
Lane Mier | 3:34 p.m. Jan. 17, 2008
If law is disregarded per government policy then is it not the same as though
there were no law? And where there is no law is that not a form of anarchy? Are
those of you who support disobeying the law comfortable supporting anarchy?
support change | 4:23 p.m. Jan. 17, 2008
Supporting a change in the law is not support for disobeying the law. And
support for disobeying unreasonable law is not support of anarchy. Something we
learned from heroes such as Gandhi and Martin Luther King, Jr.
Angry | 6:25 p.m. Jan. 17, 2008
Mr. Bramble would have us believe that "the feds need to do the job".
They are not, so he, as a pro-illegal alien supporter, uses this as an excuse to
allow them.
We apparently have a list of driver privlege cards, thanks to Bramble, and he could turn that list over to ICE. But he doesn't. Guess whose side he is on? NOT OUR CITIZEN'S SIDE!
Incidently, There was a bill on the docket that Bramble gutted with his DPC that would have repealed giving illegal aliens driver's licenses altogether. Guess whose side Bramble is on?
The only question I have is when are we going to throw bums like Bramble out of office?
We apparently have a list of driver privlege cards, thanks to Bramble, and he could turn that list over to ICE. But he doesn't. Guess whose side he is on? NOT OUR CITIZEN'S SIDE!
Incidently, There was a bill on the docket that Bramble gutted with his DPC that would have repealed giving illegal aliens driver's licenses altogether. Guess whose side Bramble is on?
The only question I have is when are we going to throw bums like Bramble out of office?
Patriot | 6:43 p.m. Jan. 17, 2008
Mr. Bramble,
Are you completley oblivious to what has been going on in New York, Okalahoma and Arizona when it comes to illegals? What is it you don't get? The people of Utah and America are tire of their elected officials granting privilages to illegal alien invaders who have no rights. The peoples government has no right to grant driving privilages to non citizen invaders wheather they drive on our roads or not. When you take away the benefits the invaders go away and then you don't have them on your roads. Don't tell me it doesn't work. Okalahoma and Arizona are seeing the results of attrition through enforcement and guess where the invaders are coming to? You guessed it. Utah! What don't you get Mr. Bramble?
Are you completley oblivious to what has been going on in New York, Okalahoma and Arizona when it comes to illegals? What is it you don't get? The people of Utah and America are tire of their elected officials granting privilages to illegal alien invaders who have no rights. The peoples government has no right to grant driving privilages to non citizen invaders wheather they drive on our roads or not. When you take away the benefits the invaders go away and then you don't have them on your roads. Don't tell me it doesn't work. Okalahoma and Arizona are seeing the results of attrition through enforcement and guess where the invaders are coming to? You guessed it. Utah! What don't you get Mr. Bramble?
Wes | 8:51 p.m. Jan. 18, 2008
I don't see immigration as an issue of what's ours is ours. I see
'those' people as equal to both you and I, created in God's
image, by Him with all the rights to happiness that you guard so closely. And to
those who say it's not about race aren't facing facts. Are any of you
'patriots' honestly concerned about your housing values when Canadians
or English or Australians move next door? It's the color of the skin and
their language that is the issue. Hitler passed many laws against the rights of
Jews to live in the Father land. They were wrong. If laws are unjust then we
have a duty to speak out against them. I believe closing a border to
brown-skinned, non-English speaking people is wrong. It's just wrong. Wrong
by God's standards and by the standards of history. Fifty years we'll
look back on this whole episode and be ashamed. And if you disagree, I have yet
to year anybody terrified about the prospect of hordes of Canadians storming our
borders and their impact to America's economy.
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