Reader comments
Ed board won't accept test averages
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Rob | 7:25 a.m. Jan. 11, 2008
Basically what this article is saying from the comments of the board members
was, well we found a way to get around the system and now that we're caught
we'll work on finally getting better education to students. The law needs
to find a way to make students succeed, whether it be mandatory passing of
school or something else that will make kids less interested in wearing
abercrombie & fitch and more interested in being an adult. Kids these days
are very unintelligent, I am only 19, out of high school 2 years and I recently
spoke to a 11th grader, I felt like I was talking to someone that had the
mentality of an 8th grader. Students aren't allowed to pursue the things
they want to study, because they are forced to take classes they aren't
interested in, thereby making kids vulnerable to playing on youtube all day and
not doing their homework. The government needs to make "Class"
mandatory, but not make classes kids aren't going to use mandatory, such as
chemistry or algebra 2 to a student that is interested in being a chef, for
example. Basically stop letting your kids slack in school !!!
Another one bites the dust! | 7:36 a.m. Jan. 11, 2008
This program needs to be a local input thing as the population demographics are
sometimes of varying sizes..there needs to be an area for addressing the
illegals as they are putting a strain on the system that is payed for by the
taxpayer..isn't that a form of over-taxation? Bush totally failed on this
one..time to go back to school and pay the teachers more as utah lags way behind
and this program adds a huge amount of demand on the real heroes who hold the
true answers to the problems that should be dealt with from the local level!
Comments continue below
dumbing down the class room | 8:12 a.m. Jan. 11, 2008
No child left behind is the worst educational program ever devised in American
history. It takes the very good student, the average stdent, the below average
student and even the special ed student. Put them all together and you produce a
very average out come. Ya everybody passes but no one excells. If I didn't
know better I would say this idea came from an enemy of the USA not our own
legislators.
Og | 8:27 a.m. Jan. 11, 2008
The truth is Utah public schools are a catastrophic failure. Rather than face
facts, Utah officials have used improper statistical misrepresentations to make
it look like their schools were meeting (exceeding minimal) NCLB standards when
if fact a large proportion of Utah schools have failed every year since NCLB was
first enacted.
Our ignorant Utah parents are all too willing to look the other way. They would rather hear reassuring lies than let go of the denial and do the hard work of finding solutions (like vouchers). Utah really has failed its IQ test in the education arena, and our children are losing their futures.
Our ignorant Utah parents are all too willing to look the other way. They would rather hear reassuring lies than let go of the denial and do the hard work of finding solutions (like vouchers). Utah really has failed its IQ test in the education arena, and our children are losing their futures.
Anonymous | 8:29 a.m. Jan. 11, 2008
find a smarter way to ensure no student gets left behind. The current law has
the effect of dumbing down education for the majority of students.
Ramona | 8:33 a.m. Jan. 11, 2008
Dumbing down the classroom, you hit the nail on the head with NCLB. The point
is to make everybody function at a basic level and those that would normally
excel in a class are forced to wait to move forward until the average student
"gets" it. My special needs son is put in a regular ed. class
instead of small group so he "looks" normal but isn't getting the
once individual attention in which he is most capable of learning. It would
seem that the only one getting the advantage is the average student while bright
and struggling students are lost. NCLB sounds good but seems to perform the
opposite of what it claims...It leaves massive amounts of children behind.
Utah is tops | 8:38 a.m. Jan. 11, 2008
Our scores continue to be near the top of the nation all while done with the
worst funding in the nation.
Incredible.
I will say that our test scores will decrease exactly equal with the amount of illegal immigrants that show up to take the tests.
Incredible.
I will say that our test scores will decrease exactly equal with the amount of illegal immigrants that show up to take the tests.
Ramona | 8:41 a.m. Jan. 11, 2008
Og,
This isn't a uniquely Utah problem. I live in Georgia. Again, NCLB is a federally mandated and underfunded program which sets it up for failure from the start.
My experience is that special needs and struggling students are put in classrooms to make them look "normal." It might be a feel good, but it doesn't help the students. Smaller classrooms with more individual attention helps struggling students. Instead students are tested and not taught for approximately one month out of the school year. That is precious time lost preparing a child to become test savvy instead of taking the time to educate.
We have a local school that is disproportionately illegal immigrants and the test scores reflect that fact. The teachers and the school is already on probation with NCLB. Now how exactly are the school and the teachers to blame for the testing results? Again, students enter at 3rd grade or later illiterate in both English and Spanish. A program that was appropriately funded could work but that just isn't the case so teachers are instead being blamed for the population that was districted to them.
This isn't a uniquely Utah problem. I live in Georgia. Again, NCLB is a federally mandated and underfunded program which sets it up for failure from the start.
My experience is that special needs and struggling students are put in classrooms to make them look "normal." It might be a feel good, but it doesn't help the students. Smaller classrooms with more individual attention helps struggling students. Instead students are tested and not taught for approximately one month out of the school year. That is precious time lost preparing a child to become test savvy instead of taking the time to educate.
We have a local school that is disproportionately illegal immigrants and the test scores reflect that fact. The teachers and the school is already on probation with NCLB. Now how exactly are the school and the teachers to blame for the testing results? Again, students enter at 3rd grade or later illiterate in both English and Spanish. A program that was appropriately funded could work but that just isn't the case so teachers are instead being blamed for the population that was districted to them.
To OG | 8:46 a.m. Jan. 11, 2008
A catastrophic failure? Did you know that utah students scored above the
national average on the Iowa Test of Basic Skills? Regardless of the Iowa
results you can't label a school as a success or a failure based on only
one test. This is what NCLB does. Schools need to improve, but a catastrophic
failure? OH PLEASE!
Blue | 8:47 a.m. Jan. 11, 2008
Utahs PUBLIC education system was never intended to cater to the wants of every
student. It was designed and intended to give every child a BASIC education
from which they can build on depending on their interests. It is also hamstrung
by the fact that it always has to teach to the lowest common denominator (the
slowest kid). Its a good system but was never intended to be able to make
everyone a member of the ALPS program. Our education system serves a very basic
functional purpose. NCLB may never happen the way it was intended but it has
served to sharpen our focus on the issues.
OG | 9:13 a.m. Jan. 11, 2008
NCLB score manipulation reflects similar tampering with the ACT and SAT tests.
Every year, ACT and SAT tests continued to go down in the US, embarrassing the
NEA and politicians. The solution? Redesign the tests and scoring so that
students would score higher and historical comparison would be interrupted! Out
of sight, out of mind!
American public education has failed, and it is getting worse in absolute performance terms every year. But for Americans and Utahns who care to step out of their own little bubble world, check out how badly American students do against other industrialized countries of the world. We are WAY DOWN the list and our students CAN'T COMPETE IN A WORLD ECONOMY.
Given the economic prosperity and small populations of disadvantaged minority students, Utah should be performing WAY ABOVE the US average in comparison to other states with larger poor and minority populations, but we do not.
Oh well, I guess someone needs to pump gas for the Chinese, and it may as well be Utah's rising generation . . .
American public education has failed, and it is getting worse in absolute performance terms every year. But for Americans and Utahns who care to step out of their own little bubble world, check out how badly American students do against other industrialized countries of the world. We are WAY DOWN the list and our students CAN'T COMPETE IN A WORLD ECONOMY.
Given the economic prosperity and small populations of disadvantaged minority students, Utah should be performing WAY ABOVE the US average in comparison to other states with larger poor and minority populations, but we do not.
Oh well, I guess someone needs to pump gas for the Chinese, and it may as well be Utah's rising generation . . .
Vegas Resident | 9:19 a.m. Jan. 11, 2008
And we wonder why there is a shortage of teachers to teach our children?? With
what is expected for teachers to achieve, it's not fair when they are
putting in countless hours for little money. I see too many government
departments receiving more and more money when not necessary. For me it's
simple, IF our teachers were being high salaries and not performing, then we
have a problem. We can't blame the teachers, just the system on this one.
Richard Sherlock | 10:08 a.m. Jan. 11, 2008
NCLB is the best thing that ever happened to education. No more mr nice guy.
Reject the soft bigotry that says that some students such as minorities or the
poor cant learn. Students need to be rigorously tested every year and held back
if they are not learning. If teachers cant improve students performance year to
year after 5 years they should be told to find another line of work.
Merit pay should be for performance not for classes you have taken or workshops attended. Students will always have life issues e.g. divorce,poverty drugs, etc. But if teacher cant improve their learning then out. I have taught college for 30 years and the performance of freshmen has gone down
Merit pay should be for performance not for classes you have taken or workshops attended. Students will always have life issues e.g. divorce,poverty drugs, etc. But if teacher cant improve their learning then out. I have taught college for 30 years and the performance of freshmen has gone down
It won't work | 11:09 a.m. Jan. 11, 2008
OG, vouchers will not solve the problem! Parents and local school boards can
and should solve the problem. Federal rules do not apply to all situations so
let's get busy on a local school board plan.
Ben | 11:41 a.m. Jan. 11, 2008
To Richard Sherlock,
With all do respect if your freshman performance has gone down in college for 30 straight years shouldn't you have found a different line of work.
I think we should all give teachers a break for the hard, back breaking work they do for our children.
With all do respect if your freshman performance has gone down in college for 30 straight years shouldn't you have found a different line of work.
I think we should all give teachers a break for the hard, back breaking work they do for our children.
Anonymous | 12:12 p.m. Jan. 11, 2008
I love the merit pay people.
How exactly do you figure out who merits the pay?
Test scores?
O.k. so if I'm a teacher I only work at the best school with the brightest kids. My test scores go through the roof even if I'm a bad teacher.
This makes the achievement gap even worse because the worst teachers will be teaching at the worst schools with the worst students.
Merit pay sounds good to a logical person but there is no way to do it.
How exactly do you figure out who merits the pay?
Test scores?
O.k. so if I'm a teacher I only work at the best school with the brightest kids. My test scores go through the roof even if I'm a bad teacher.
This makes the achievement gap even worse because the worst teachers will be teaching at the worst schools with the worst students.
Merit pay sounds good to a logical person but there is no way to do it.
Camille | 12:16 p.m. Jan. 11, 2008
I don't like the No child Left Behind. Cause alot of kids are being left
behind!! It isn't a fair program at all. It should be abolished.
Ramona | 12:31 p.m. Jan. 11, 2008
Mr. Sherlock,
You don't seem to understand how NCLB works. The program caters, not to the brightest children which it holds back, it caters to the average child. Your freshman class reflect this problem that will only worsen the longer NCLB remains. Again, bright children are held at status quo and bored while the rest of the class catches up.
Yes, minorities especially illegals are held back but the teachers are the ones being blamed for not getting them caught up to grade level in one year. Do you not understand that you can't get a child from kindergarten level to 3rd grade reading in 1 year given there are also other students in the class that must suffer as a consequence of the monopolized time with the teacher? Are you volunteering in those high risk schools that are drawn based on socio-economics? No, of course you aren't but you will certainly blame the teachers for not doing their jobs when you have no idea what their jobs have become. As an example, one local school was a blue ribbon school only 4 years ago, yet now is at risk of NCLB accreditation, only the boundaries changed.
You don't seem to understand how NCLB works. The program caters, not to the brightest children which it holds back, it caters to the average child. Your freshman class reflect this problem that will only worsen the longer NCLB remains. Again, bright children are held at status quo and bored while the rest of the class catches up.
Yes, minorities especially illegals are held back but the teachers are the ones being blamed for not getting them caught up to grade level in one year. Do you not understand that you can't get a child from kindergarten level to 3rd grade reading in 1 year given there are also other students in the class that must suffer as a consequence of the monopolized time with the teacher? Are you volunteering in those high risk schools that are drawn based on socio-economics? No, of course you aren't but you will certainly blame the teachers for not doing their jobs when you have no idea what their jobs have become. As an example, one local school was a blue ribbon school only 4 years ago, yet now is at risk of NCLB accreditation, only the boundaries changed.
Og | 1:13 p.m. Jan. 11, 2008
Richard Sherlock's point is the incoming class of freshman each year, when
they first reach his classroom, get worse every year. Standardized test scores,
when not artificially obscured, and comparisons of Utah to and international
students, bear out Sherlock's assertion.
Ramona is also correct--NCLB and public schooling holds back the best and brightest in order to cater to the lowest common denomenator. At the same time, lower-performing students don't benefit either.
Polls show the reason most people voted against vouchers was because they wanted to stop the gifted students from gaining "elite" educations and creating a performance gap. Too bad it is a relative few gifted people (Edison, Einstein, Demming, etc.) who provide the ideas and jobs that keep the duller masses fully employed in a vibrant economy. Without gifted minds, the economy stagnates and jobs go overseas.
To "It can't work" . . . stop telling us that "local school boards can solve the problem." Local educrats have had about a hundred years to solve the problem, and despite decades of such rhetoric they have failed. Ever-decreasing performance is what prompted misguided NCLB!
Smaller classes and more education spending yield no statistically significant performance improvement!
Ramona is also correct--NCLB and public schooling holds back the best and brightest in order to cater to the lowest common denomenator. At the same time, lower-performing students don't benefit either.
Polls show the reason most people voted against vouchers was because they wanted to stop the gifted students from gaining "elite" educations and creating a performance gap. Too bad it is a relative few gifted people (Edison, Einstein, Demming, etc.) who provide the ideas and jobs that keep the duller masses fully employed in a vibrant economy. Without gifted minds, the economy stagnates and jobs go overseas.
To "It can't work" . . . stop telling us that "local school boards can solve the problem." Local educrats have had about a hundred years to solve the problem, and despite decades of such rhetoric they have failed. Ever-decreasing performance is what prompted misguided NCLB!
Smaller classes and more education spending yield no statistically significant performance improvement!
NCLB dumbs down kids | 2:02 p.m. Jan. 11, 2008
Richard Sherlock - The problem with NCLB is that good students don't get
better. The tests that my kids were given gave scores of 1-4, 4 being best. That
is the score my kids received at the START of the school year. At parent teacher
conferences the teacher did not recognize my daughter and had to look up the
information. Once the teacher found the information the teacher said "Oh,
she is doing fine, she got a 4 on the tests so she helps me teach the other
students". That comment just gave me a warm fuzzy all over (sarcasm
intented). I just felt great that my kids teachers did not know them and that my
kids helped to teach the class because the already knew what they were going to
learn for the school year.
lgu | 2:43 p.m. Jan. 11, 2008
OG. you sure have a lot to say with very little understanding. I'd like
to know your qualifications. It is obvious that you don't have a clue what
goes on in schools. You also have know idea how tests are scored and
safeguarded. You need to either learn what education in Utah is about or stop
making your blatant statements. Go for the truth insted of shock value. If
you;re angry at Utah schools for some reason, be a part of the solution insted
of shooting your mouth off.
To OG | 3:12 p.m. Jan. 11, 2008
You seem to thing our education system has been failing for "the last
hundred years" and that we have been behind for decades. Then why, may I
ask is the United States still the greatest country in the world? There is
absolutely NO proof that our education system is "failing". Testing
is way to subjective to be used to determine a schools success of failure.
Grumpy | 4:30 p.m. Jan. 11, 2008
The newspaper articles talk about "SHORTAGE OF TEACHERS". I agree
with that statement, but the articles should be about "TEACHERS GETTING
SHORTED". I don't need to list where they are short changed, as there
is not enough remaining on this comment.
Answer this comment with what areas 'TEACHERS ARE GETTING SHORTED" in your view and how can the problem be solved.
Answer this comment with what areas 'TEACHERS ARE GETTING SHORTED" in your view and how can the problem be solved.
To:To Og | 7:17 p.m. Jan. 11, 2008
There is proof that the U.S. educational system is failing and can be seen in
math alone. In India and many other countries, a student graduates having taken
multi-factoral calculus aka calc 3 while in the U.S. trigonometry is often the
last high school math class. That is proof of the failure of our system
relative to other countries. It also explains outsourcing and the need for it.
We are simply not as qualified as high school children from other countries.
to calculus comment | 12:06 a.m. Jan. 12, 2008
Yeah you really need the calculus class to answer phones for Dish customer
service in India!
Give me a break. The only outsourcing we are doing is minimum wage, entry level junk that no one here wants to do anymore for some reason.
Give me a break. The only outsourcing we are doing is minimum wage, entry level junk that no one here wants to do anymore for some reason.
Regarding Calculus | 1:48 p.m. Jan. 12, 2008
You are clueless as to what is actually happening in India and across the world
regarding outsourcing. Not only are far more than minimum wage and entry level
jobs being outsourced but many many advanced degree jobs. Much in the way of
research is already outsourced.
Who cares | 3:45 p.m. Jan. 12, 2008
Who cares if high school students graduate with calculus. What difference does
that make? Outsourcing is an economic trend. It is cheaper, bottom line.
Also, in india most kids don't get much of an education. I've been
there bro, and the poor don't even go to school!
More on Calculus | 7:14 a.m. Jan. 14, 2008
Who cares? Businesses care and that is why we are outsourcing to other
countries. The U.S. graduates just don't have the math background
necessary. Why? Because the U.S. typically ends, even for college bound
students with Algebra 2 Trigonometry. Knowing what I know, I pushed our
daughter to Calculus 2 by the end of her senior year. I am doing the same with
our second daughter and have had to move her out of public school to do so. It
is expensive? Yes, but the public schools and the enforcement of NCLB are
forcing it.
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Here in Georgia we have students that enter the school system in 3rd grade or higher not only illiterate in English but also in Spanish. Yes they are illegal. The teachers and the school reputation are then ruined when , by the end of the year, that student is not up to grade level as reflected by the necessary NCLB testing.
My special needs son was also removed from his small group of 10 students in the classroom into a regular education classroom as part of NCLB. All small group classes were dissolved. Great, now a special education students looks "normal" but isn't getting the individual attention to keep him at grade level which he was performing with the other program.
I look forward to the day when a nail can be put in the coffin of the NCLB program.
One angry Momma,
Ramona