Deseret News | Utah violating school act? Feds say districts can't average test scores

Reader comments
Utah violating school act? Feds say districts can't average test scores

Anonymous | 4:49 a.m. Dec. 15, 2007

NCLB is a bureaucratic nightmare!

The sooner the stupid thing is done away with, the sooner education will improve. Not to mention the funding that is wasted....

Doug Slater | 6:07 a.m. Dec. 15, 2007

Instead of worrying about "No Child left behind"..consider that our schools are "teaching to the lowest level" This restricts the potential for the majority of students.

Bob G | 6:25 a.m. Dec. 15, 2007

What difference, other than making themselves look good, does it matter whether its one year or 10 years averaging? The fact is the state is not educating sutdents and now they are trying to manipulate figures to hide their diffeciencies and poor education in Utah. The no child left behind is a joke and meaningless and is a poor means of evaluation of education in Utah. The intent of the NCLB is to keep students in school and make sure they are getting educated, which they are not. Manipulating figures does not educate students. Facts for the last 10 years have shown the schools in Utah are producing uneducated children that can't even qualify for college without retaking pre college courses. They can't even balance a checkbook or write a simple note or even spell basic words. They call this an educated student? Any illegals in the school system should also not be included in any ratings, only that they are a drain and excessive cost to the school system as a major burden on tax payers and educators. The illegals should never receive any diplomas or degrees for they are not citizens and do not merit any acknowledgements.

Comments continue below

mom | 8:21 a.m. Dec. 15, 2007

getting all to that point is an impossibility. they have their agency and there are also those who are not mentally capable of doing so. Stupidest thing to ever come from the government.

Tell the Fed. Gov't to stick it | 8:21 a.m. Dec. 15, 2007

We should send the feds their education money along with NCLB..and tell them that Utah will abide by the 10th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution and take care of education ourselves.

Anonymous | 8:30 a.m. Dec. 15, 2007

If a school fails , start holding the TEACHERS and ADMINISTRATORS ACCOUNTABLE. These Union hacks need to be fired, just as any9ne in the private sector would for poor job preformance.
We spend and obscene ampunt of money per student and all we hear is we need more money from the Unionized leeches.

Anonymous | 9:29 a.m. Dec. 15, 2007

If the factors that caused the failure really were the administrators and teachers then by all means, fire them. However that isn't why schools fail under NCLB. It often is the group of special ed students who are required to test on the same grade level as their able bodied peers. Imagine a blind student being handed a test and asking them to read it to you and maybe it will give a sense of how difficult and frustrating it is for these students.

And the reader with his illegals rant, how are we expected to legally know which students are from illegal families? That isn't the schools place to research and punish children based on how their parents entered the country. That is however a requirement of employers. Business is responsible for not curbing the flow of illegal workers not the school system.

Chuck | 9:43 a.m. Dec. 15, 2007

The sooner we drop NCLB (even with its money) the better.

Accountable?? | 9:48 a.m. Dec. 15, 2007

Hey Anonymous, It's not just the schools that need to be held accountable. Let's also hold parents accountable for getting their children to school on time, well fed, and in a state of mind ready to learn. If I were only teaching your children it would be easy, but I'm also expected to be their social worker, therapist, parole officer, mediator, and quite often, parent because you're not doing your job as parents.

If you're so simple as to think it's the school's fault your child isn't being educated properly, maybe you shouldn't have had children in the first place.

I only have 180 school days (assuming you get them to school that often) to fix what you have been screwing up for 10 years. The odds are not in my favor.

to: anonymous | 10:22 a.m. Dec. 15, 2007

If a child fails we should fire the parents and hold them accountable just like anyone in the private sector would be fired!

Seriously, if a child fails 99% of the time I blame a problem at home before I blame a parent. Any parent worth a dime is keeping track of their kid and making sure they are passing instead of listening to their ipod or playing xbox.

Thomas Jefferson quote | 11:13 a.m. Dec. 15, 2007

The ideology of federal government intrusion into local educational
concerns "flies in the face" of this Thomas Jefferson quote, which
can apply to schools:

The way to have good and safe government, is not to trust it all to
one, but to divide it among the many, distributing to every one
exactly the functions he is competent to. Let the national
government be entrusted with the defense of the nation, and its
foreign and federal relations; the State governments with the civil
rights, law, police, and administration of what concerns the State
generally; the counties with the local concerns of the counties, and
each ward direct the interests within itself. It is by dividing and
subdividing these republics from the great national one down through
all its subordinations, until it ends in the administration of every
man's farm by himself; by placing under every one what his own eye
may superintend, that all will be done for the best. What has
destroyed liberty and the rights of man in every government which
has ever existed under the sun? The generalizing and concentrating
all cares and powers into one body. (Letter to Joseph C. Cabell,
February 2, 1816.)

Clare | 11:15 a.m. Dec. 15, 2007

Dear Anonymous,

If you're so sure it's the teacher's fault students aren't learning, why don't you give it a try and show all of us leeches how to do it? After all, you seem to have all of the answers.

Consistency? | 11:21 a.m. Dec. 15, 2007

Obviously there is no consistency in the way the U.S. Department of Education crunches their numbers. When we have a federal government that cannot fix social security, address illegal immigration, balance the budget, close the AMT tax loophole, etc, etc, etc, what makes anyone think they can do something great with education. They can't do anything else right, so why is education the exception?

Dave | 11:40 a.m. Dec. 15, 2007

The problem with public education is the whole system must be abandoned. Anyone with a lick of sense knows the public education system is the best laid financial scam in history, a haven for pediphiles, and test scores are dropping year after year.
Since any normal parent wants their child to get an education, the old belief "if you want something done right, then do it yourself," still applies. Parents with the onions to rear exceptional children would adjust their lifestyles and homeschool.
Homeschooling is easier and cheaper than most folks think. Just fill out the affidavit, get some books from the library, buy some stuff at the store, and do it.
We're doing it. Our 5 year old is already at 2nd grade level, and our 2 year old is now starting to read and write. Homeschooling works!

KJN | 12:11 p.m. Dec. 15, 2007

With homeschooling, just be careful that you make sure they grow socially as well as academically.

TheTruth | 12:15 p.m. Dec. 15, 2007

Dave,

It would be nice if everyone could adequately homeschool their children, but it's not as practical as you make it sound. Aside from changing our entire way of life and economy, some people just aren't as capable as others. I don't mean to bust on dummies or anything, but some people have had more schooling and did better than others. It is not in everyone to teach math, english, chemistry, biology, etc. effectively.

If you are so big on homeschooling, I would suggest neighborhood conglomerates. You can start a school for very cheap. Many Utahns have done this and provided diploma's to children that seem much better off coming out of highschool. Doing it yourself just takes a little innitiative. The benefits of a neighborhood working together are obvious. You don't need every mother and father to spend a full day, every day, learning and preparing lessons, you can spread the load around, and most importantly, you can build great community relationships. Your children still get the social aspect, which I believe is vital to a good career, and you know who they are playing with and who their parents are. Plus, you decide everything together, not some board.

TheTruth | 12:36 p.m. Dec. 15, 2007

"Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers" (The U.S. Constitution).

Uhh, I don't see where this says the Federal Gov'ment can blackmail us into adopting NCLB by threatening to cut our funding 20%. Anyone else see where the constitution allows this?

We need to impeach Orrin Hatch and all other Utah representatives who voted for NCLB, thus granting the Fed the right to usurp educational power from Utah. And people still think Hatch is for Utahns. Hatch and all those other cronies are for big government and controlling everything in our lives.

Everyone should write the state senate and ask them to stomp down NCLB in Utah. If the fed withholds ANY funding then we will take it to the supreme court and get it right back. Bush will be crying just like Clinton was when we said no to abortion.

We still have power, we just need to exercise it.

TheTruth | 12:42 p.m. Dec. 15, 2007

Ooh, I forgot to add that Dr. Ron Paul voted AGAINST NCLB. Vote Ron Paul for President

evensteven | 12:47 p.m. Dec. 15, 2007

To the many in education who feel slighted because some wish to hold you accountable for students failing yet seem to neglect their own parental duties - you brought it on yourselves. Once the child enters school property, you ARE the parent. Its called in loco parentis (in place of the parent)and has been brought to you by your union. That's why schools do more social engineering than educating. What follows from that is that it is the educators who are responsible, not the parents. In fact, that is the message education has been sending for many years - they are the professionals, they know best. The genie can not be put back in the bottle. Social promotion, watered down curriculum, little significant homework since the teacher doesn't want to grade it, gigantic schools with over-crowded classrooms, the soft bigotry of low expectations. NCLB is not the problem. The schools taking upon themselves, and allowing parents to abdicate, the primary responsibilities of parents is. Schools need to focus on educating and leave the parenting to the parents. And let the social ships fall where they may. Difficult? Yes. But necessary if schools, especially in Utah, are to survive and succeed.

Anonymous | 1:02 p.m. Dec. 15, 2007

Since when it cheating to look better news in Utah?

Hey Dave | 1:33 p.m. Dec. 15, 2007

What rock did you crawl out from? Public ed the biggest financial scam in history? History is a long time, Dave. Gee, Enron? The biggest scam, at least in the history of Utah, is how the Utah legislature has woefully underfunded education for years and years and years. Public schools a haven for pediphiles? Turn off your TV, Dave. You're being sucked in by the rhetoric.

More homeschoolers please! | 1:40 p.m. Dec. 15, 2007

If all of the loudmouth public ed bashers would just homeschool their kids we would all be a lot better off.

Oh. Except for the kid that spent his entire childhood in his own home never seeing the world or learning social skills...

Anonymous | 2:49 p.m. Dec. 15, 2007

NCLB is ridiculous, its standards can never be met by any school anywhere (public, private or charter). When Bush finally leaves, perhaps the new fearless leader can get rid of this albatross and come up with a new paradigm for public education that is obtainable.

In regards to Utah; as our demographics chang look for those once high test scores to lessen. The huge classes Utah has gotten away with will bite us in the buttocks as we head into the next decade. It's time to pay the piper or get played...

Constitutional Infringement | 7:45 p.m. Dec. 15, 2007

The Constitution of the United States declares that education is a State issue and to be regulated by the individual States. The Federal Government has once again blackmailed each State into doing it their way and not the way each State believes education to be conducted. They did the same thing several years ago with the 55 mph problem. Do it our way or loose the Federal support. Also, much of the Federal money is dedicated to individuals who are in the United States illegally. It's time to bring educational decisions back to the State of Utah and any other State.

Public Educator | 10:02 p.m. Dec. 15, 2007

NCLB has it's benefits. It has required dedision makers to be sure to pay attention to those students that have historically not fared well in Public Education Systems (low income and ethnic minorities) However, there are severe problems with the law, first and formost, is that it was not adequately funded. The National Education Association has worked tirelessly to fix and fund NCLB!!!

The root of the problem | 11:39 p.m. Dec. 15, 2007

The real problem--most of public education doesn't tie into anyone's actual life. Besides electives like choir, band, debate, drama, football, etc. it's all learn for the test and dump. Not learn because it's useful in life. Not learn because there's inherent delight in it.

When has any kid in school done anything real in the last 50 years? Back in the 1700's kids were going to university at age 14. They were performing REAL experiments. Working on REAL projects. And those that didn't were apprenticing out and doing REAL labor. Ben Franklin, age 15, writing actual entertaining letters in the paper (and he wasn't the anomaly). A carpenter, for example, uses more real life math in a month than any Algebra teacher does in 10 years of teaching.

Don't think so? Hey, you math teachers--tell me what quadratic equations are used for in the real world. I'll bet you 90% don't have a clue. English teachers--how many kids write outside of school? Administrators--how many of your learning objectives are applied outside of the classroom?

Schools need to put kids into REAL LIFE PROJECTS. Not the stupid learn and forget busy work that's been institutionalized as curriculum.

History Teacher and a Democrat | 10:46 a.m. Dec. 16, 2007

FYI: The fundamental elements of NCLB were hammered through Congress during the President Clinton's administration.

Too much blame... | 12:23 a.m. Dec. 19, 2007

It looks like everybody has somebody else to blame. Why does the state have to look for ways to manipulate the figures? Some of the schools made the grade. Let's quit making excuses and start expecting excellence of ourselves--everyone doin their part. There is no reason why Utah shouldn't have the best schools in the nation, but we have to start putting children first.

Add your comment

Comments are monitored. Any comments found to be abusive, offensive, off-topic, misrepresentative, more than 200 words or containing URLs will not be posted.

Words Remaining

E-mail address: For internal use only. We may want to contact you to publish your comment (not your e-mail address) in the newspaper or for a separate story idea.