Deseret News | Reader comments: Lehi to charge for GRAMA data

Reader comments
Lehi to charge for GRAMA data

Bob G | 5:00 a.m. Dec. 13, 2007

This fee schedule should only apply to non residents of a city. Any resident of a city should have free access to it's government representaives records in order to know how the individuals of a city are being represented. Businesses and developers have outside backing and financial resources that residents do not have and is not a burden to pay fees. The developers of properties are not residents so should not be considered to have free access to public records. A developer is a non resident property owner representing other investors and share holders that are also not residents and should pay the fee. City representatives are elected by resident property owners or others living in the city limits for a prescribed period that have the power to vote. Non resident business owners and developers do not have the power to vote for elected officials therefore the residents and voters have the majority vote on any issue concerning developement and business intrusion.

Taxpayer | 9:25 a.m. Dec. 13, 2007

What a crock! This is another example of government not understand who it works for or who pays its salaries. I am so sick of these attitudes from government bureaucrats. I hope someone requests a bunch of records from Lehi, refuses to pay the unreasonable charges, and then sues them to set things straight. The people pay the salaries of all the workers in Lehi City. If someone actually has to get up and make a couple of copies, then so be it.

If they want to work in the private sector, then that's great. They certainly won't get the benefits that the government offers, nor will they get every single little holiday off (unless they work for a bank). This is nothing more than cities demanded to be paid a second time for doing their job!

Lehi Resident | 10:08 a.m. Dec. 13, 2007

I agree with the fees. I could go into the city and request every record that they have. The city would then incur a huge bill for this service and I wouldn't have to pay a cent. Is this fair to every other citizen of the city? I don't think so.

The "I am a taxpayer and I shouldn't pay for this" rationale doesn't apply. You don't get free access to the Rec Center and other things. There are a lot of city services that must be payed for and I think GRAMA requests are one of those. However, I do think that residents should have one payment schedule and non-residents have a different, more expensive one since they are not paying city taxes. Also, like the article says, the first 15 minutes are free so if you have a simple request it won't cost you anything.

Comments continue below

Dave | 10:13 a.m. Dec. 13, 2007

Thank you for writing an article that discusses Lehi's latest attempt to block citizen input into the governmental process. Including quality resources in your article is good reporting. I appreciate Ed Carter's comments reiterating the fact that governments represent people and are in the sole business of 'public service'.

I was disgusted with the article that Cathy Allred wrote for the Lehi Free Press/Daily Herald. Her editorial was an infantile attempt at reporting the news. She made no attempt to call Lehi on this latest disgusting message of "We know better than you so get out of our business".

Reporters, citizens, and businesses should be horrified that a city would put stumbling blocks in the path of PUBLIC information. Quality, timely, free information is essential to keeping a government honest. Blocking that process affirms an entity is hiding something and lacks integrity.

swerl | 10:20 a.m. Dec. 13, 2007

This is the first step to curp discovery from DCFS, if it were'nt for GRAMA the state would continue abusing the system to protect a 500 million dollar federally funded system of job security for judges, attorneys, psycologists and the social worker. Carbon County Police have a standing rule to deny even the press from its records. It's easier that way.

Taxpayer as well | 10:46 a.m. Dec. 13, 2007

What the article fails to mention is following the recent hotly contested city council election, the city was inundated with Grama request that would have essentially shut down the day to day operations. Request like, "I would like to see every single email over the past year from each city council member as well as the Mayor's office." It is not the specific single document request that are the problem, it is the broad sweeping "witch hunt" Grama request that prompted the review of the way that the city handles this. If I had a beef with an employee or city department, I could go and request every document, email, telephone record etc. that was produced over a certain time period and cripple the department. This is what they are trying to avoid. The current "free and unobstructed" system is a conspiracy theorist dream.

Edmund | 11:19 a.m. Dec. 13, 2007

This, like so many other things the Lehi city council does, is retaliatory. Lehi was "inundated" with GRAMA requests. Boo-hoo! So someone actually wants to know what is going on in Lehi. Wow! Wouldn't you think that if government cared about the people they represent, they'd HELP them be informed? This is a roadblock. What does inundated mean? Well, we were really comfortable when no one cared about what we were doing and didn't ever ask for anything, but now that someone is actually asking us to dig up files to reveal our actions, let's cry like little babies and make it harder so that maybe those nasty information diggers will go away. Wah-wah! If Saratoga Springs is not going to join us in our battle against UDOT, lets show them by jacking up fees to hinder them. Hmm. Of course, though, the Lehi city council would never act in retaliation, they're good boys. They're good ol' boys, don't you know? You want to know what's going on, join their club! No need to pay excessive fees, just pay dues. They'll tell you all they want you to know if you pay your dues, but don't you dare go snooping.

To Dave | 11:40 a.m. Dec. 13, 2007

Give the conspiracy a rest. No one is trying to "block citizen input into governmental process", this is not the Boston tea party.

The only stumbling block to access is that the city does not want to higher several full time employees (on a limited budget) to handle the thousand page request of every nut angry about losing an election or developer hunting for a reason to sue the city on the grounds of equal protection.

If you think I am wrong, go to the city and make a specific request pertaining to a specific Grama item and see if you are turned down. If so call the paper or file with the state Attorney General's office.
What would it cost someone at Micron, Novell, Kennecott or any other large organization to look through thousands of emails, filter them, convert formats, and print them? It is also not up to the city to filter out which request are bogus and which are real, by law they have to handle every one. This is expensive and time consuming.
So, if you had your way, every wacko Constitutionalist could request thousands of records each day to "help preserve our freedoms"?

Zoinks | 12:23 p.m. Dec. 13, 2007

Clearly, this could be challenged in court and should be. Are there charges associated with inspecting the records? "Taxpayer"- your name should be councilman. BTW- what are the people of Lehi finding anyway? Let's hope to avoid another Eagle Mountain ordeal. There has to be something to drive them to ask for these documents (which under law they have every right to have access). I am sure there will be another Buffalo Chip award from the Herald. Lehi has been a hot contender for that award lately.

Lehi Resident Too | 12:44 p.m. Dec. 13, 2007

The first Lehi Resident doesn't seem to understand the role of taxes. Taxes SHOULD pay for public information. Fees SHOULD pay for rec memberships. So why should Lehi citizens pay FEES for GRAMAs and TAXES for Legacy Center! It's backwards! This is basic "government for dummies" stuff! I don't belong to the Legacy Center but I pay for it all the time; so why shouldn't it be the same if someone doesn't use the GRAMA system? And why are the attorney items contracted out like I.T. items? Don't we have a city attorney, paid with our tax dollars, who is quoted in this article? Sounds to me like the people on my tax dollar pay roll should actually start doing their job, instead of using time on the clock to promote "citizen foul play" type stories! Besides, SHOULDN'T the number of GRAMA's increase during a city election? We should be pleased that Lehi seems to want to vote in an informed manner! If the current council was doing a stellar job they should WANT people to do GRAMAs and see what they're doing. KUDOS to the paper finding an objective source at BYU rather than Lehi employees only!

Re: To Dave | 12:47 p.m. Dec. 13, 2007

"wacko Constitutionalist"? Is this a factual appeal or just an emotional rant by a nutcase? Since when is it necessary to demonize someones viewpoint when you just disagree?

GRAMA-Rama-No-Mama | 2:14 p.m. Dec. 13, 2007

Perhaps a lesson to be learned here is that if you are going to state something in public, make sure you're okay with it being public. Does the Lehi City Council not want something discovered? This from an article in today's Deseret News---

"The Utah State Office of Education must release copies of a $500,000 proposal awarded to Brigham Young University to improve math education, according to the State Records Committee.

"The seven-member committee voted unanimously this morning in favor of making the proposal public, following a request from Sen. Margaret Dayton, R-Orem, to decide the matter.

"Last month, Dayton sought a copy of the proposal using the Government Records Access and Management Act from the State Office of Education and was denied.

"Within the next few days, the State Office of Education will release the proposal or appeal the records committee's decision to Utah's 3rd District Court, said Kristina Kindl, a Utah Attorney General's Office lawyer representing the Office of Education.

"At issue was information in the proposal based on BYU professors' proprietary research about math education."

For the rest of that story, go to:

http://deseretnews.com/article/content/mobile/0,5223,695235790,00.html

Melissa Laurence | 4:13 p.m. Dec. 13, 2007

To the person hiding behind the "To Dave" title:
If it is not an attempt to block public input what is it? You are obviously a council member so please inform me and stop hiding behind anonymity.

I take great offense at the fact that my husband ran a fair and competitive campaign for city council in Lehi (without personal attacks and rumor spreading) but because of a desire to serve the city without being a part of "the old club" he's now considered an "angry nut" and "wacko constitutionalist." Shouldn't every American be a "constitutionalist", particularly those sworn to uphold and defend the constitution in public office? None of the "inundation" of GRAMAs has come from us, though copies of some slanderous e-mails about my husband by Lehi's public servants have made it our way through that process. Also, I heard it was six weeks, not a year's, worth of e-mails. Maybe you should check your facts or can't you afford the GRAMAs?
P.S. It's hire, not higher!

Fellow "Wacko" | 10:00 a.m. Dec. 14, 2007

My guess is that "to Dave" isn't a city council member, but a particular council member's wife. Her M.O. is too obvious.

Scarlett | 10:37 a.m. Dec. 18, 2007

Kudo's to Melissa Laurence for straightening out a few facts. I have known Craig Laurence for more years than I care to count and a more helpful, good, and honest man I have yet to meet. That calibur of man was surely not in evidence during election time. Maybe the City Council should be putting their heads together and following a class act like him.
Terms like "Waco" and "Angry Nut" are obvious outbursts that come from a person's limited vocabulary and an uncanny inability to express themselves.
It is referred to in laymans language as "garbage in - garbage out." Surely, the spirit of being magnanimous is far, far out of reach for this person.
What an embarrasment it must be for the residents of Lehi to have to watch their City Council and Administration perpetuating and fostering such ill-will and prideful bad behavior - systematically to its citizens.

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