Deseret News | Reader comments: Survey shines light on ORV unruliness

Reader comments
Survey shines light on ORV unruliness

schreinervideo | 7:19 a.m. Dec. 12, 2007

Environmental threat= society threat.

Vic Feuerstein | 8:55 a.m. Dec. 12, 2007

The ATVs are most devastating impact on the wildlife, hunting, forests, prairies, and tundra in recorded history. They bring unparalleled erosion, noise and without a doubt the largest bunch of abusers in history with the least regard for the resources they negatively impact or destroy. The users tend to be folks that would not be there if it required any physical effort. They do not stay on the trails. They place the other land users and hunters at a decided disadvantage. Their noise and pollution are an affront to what is wild. In a single word, they are the takers. Recognizing that they own a portion of the Federal lands too, if steps are not taken to control their access and impact the quality of the back country will plummet.
To the few that don't behave this way, I apologize and challenge them to help us control the rest.

Richard Claude | 9:17 a.m. Dec. 12, 2007

I am inclined to believe that most people respect the land and rules. There are always the few hardcore partiers that go way over the line and screw it up for everybody. I believe that taking away their expensive toys, licences and very stiff fines are the best deterants. This 'Animal House' mentality has spread everywhere. Tailgate parties used to be fun, for instance, until the 'my party is bigger than yours' types have nearly made them a thing of the past.

Comments continue below

Anonymous | 10:13 a.m. Dec. 12, 2007

Dave Peterson
Don't punish law abiding citizens, envoke much stiffer fines and conficate their ORVs. Ban violaters from using area.

MJ | 10:27 a.m. Dec. 12, 2007

As an avid horseback rider I have visted numerous state and federal parks over the last few years and have noticed a very disturbing trend. You can always identify the areas that allow ORV long before you see the actual written signs. These areas are trashed and torn up. A lot of the trash consists of beer cans and plastic bags. Yet I often meet up with considerate and responsible 4 wheel owners on the trial and would not want them to be blocked from enjoying the parks. I agree that we need better penalties such as the loss of the ORV or steep fines.

Larry H. | 10:38 a.m. Dec. 12, 2007

While I agree that there is an unruly element in the off road community, I also believe that there is a significantly greater number of operators who obey the rules and laws. I do not agree however with the observations of Vic Feuerstein and those like him who lump everyone into one category, and refer to everyone as abusers. Not everyone has the capability to spend days on foot in the wilderness due to some malady or accidental injury that precludes hiking. It isnï¿½t that we are too lazy as Mr. Feuerstein alludes but our health dictates that our off highway vehicles are our only way to get into the wilderness and enjoy nature. Punish those who abuse harshly, but allow those of us who do not to continue to enjoy nature as well.

Kevin Leary | 10:54 a.m. Dec. 12, 2007

As a former BLM employee (Soil Scientist/Hydrologist), I designed the original Frontier 500 Race Course in Nevada(which was/is the largest ORV race-course in the US). Our study plots revealed several items including the following:
--Pit areas were damaged the most of all the areas along the race-course due to the unruly spectators that had the attitude "It's my land, I can go wherever I want, and do whatever I want...besides, it's only desert."
--Areas with desert pavement and fine silt loam soils will take hundreds of years to recover from the impacts from unruly spectators
--Cattlemen grazing their cows at the public trough complained more about the race than any other special interest group and were the most unreasonable people to deal with (every "cow" was a "prize" bull if it was impacted from the race).

In general, my observation has been that most ORV users are the rebelious type and that the respectful ORV users are the exception. ORV's can have severe adverse impacts on soil (erosion), plants, wild-life habitat, wildlife, water quality, aesthetics (visual and noise), and other users of public lands via intimidations and destruction of the environment. The same types of problem apply to snowmobiliers.

KK | 11:30 a.m. Dec. 12, 2007

I have spent over 25 years working with Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, and 4-H youngsters. I know these kids would take one look at the damage and almost cry over the loss to the landscape that has been devastated by MANY ORV users. I'm hoping the good guys are the kids I worked with. I am also now handicapped and can't do what I used to do but believe me if I had the chance to use an ORV I certainly wouldn't want to be one to cause the litter or the environmental damage I've seen when I've had the occasion to visit ORV areas. Give them huge fines and confiscate their vehicles if they can't respect what also belongs to the rest of the people of the United States. No one has mentioned the damage to the cultural properties but a lot of those ORVers have deprived our country of their history also. I have seen beautiful pictographs and petroglyphs ruined by target practice and tagging. What a loss. . .

OldRider | 12:23 p.m. Dec. 12, 2007

I don't quite understand why there would be any surprise among the ORV riders. The government has taken this approach with motorcyclists for years. Since there are a few bad apples, they all must be bad apples... Let's just take away all their rights, and they won't have anywhere to go, even their own back yard...

2-bits | 1:42 p.m. Dec. 12, 2007

I don't get the logic behind this assumption that having an ORV makes you into one of these idiots that forced a woman to bear her breasts.

Is the ORV the thing that made these idiots do that?

They are just idiots. The fact that they also had an ORV is irrelevant.

I think the vast majority of ORV owners are normal well behaved people. To make this assertion that because some ORV owners behaved badly all ORV users are bad doesn't make sense to me.

Think about it... If you took away their ORV would these idiots stop acting like idiots? NO, they would just be idiots without ORVs! The ORV didn't make them do it. ORVs don't somehow make people go crazy. Taking away the ORV doesn't somehow make them return to normality. The ORV isn't the issue here!

The issue here is... There are idiots out there and many of them are attracted by what is going on at Little Sahara on Easter weekend.

Don't make all ORV owners look bad because a group of ORV owners who are attracted to the "party-party-do-anything-you-want-to" atmosphere this event is known for as the NORM among ORV users.

MTNRIDER | 3:40 p.m. Dec. 12, 2007

Characterizing all ORV (ATV) riders as environmentally abusive is the same as calling all environmentalists "radical tree huggers" or lumping them in with the ELF crowd. There are trouble makers on both sides. If you ask those who complain about ORVers and the alledged damage they have caused, if they personally saw it happen, there is a very good possibility they are only repeating oft told stories. Then again, if they did in fact see it, did they report it?

Backpacker | 4:40 p.m. Dec. 12, 2007

There may be a few "good guy" ORV riders out there, but my experience has been that they are mostly out in public lands because they enjoy their vehicles, not because they necessarily enjoy nature. Personally, I think it makes more sense to establish a few more ORV-specific areas (such as Ocotillo Wells State Vehicular Recreation Area) and then ban ORV use from all other Forest Service and BLM land. The "it's just desert" mindset is not OK...... deserts are our most fragile environments.

DoingSomething | 5:57 p.m. Dec. 12, 2007

Check out groups like U4WDA ... I would bet that as a group the OHV users police themselves better than environmentalist photographers that start fires on Delicate arch just to get the right light :)

Seth | 7:20 p.m. Dec. 12, 2007

That is a drunk problem not an ohv problem. A jerk is a jerk no mater how they got there.

You have the same problems at concerts.

Lock them up. I don't want those jurks associated with my pasttime.

prose | 7:32 p.m. Dec. 12, 2007

I agree totally with Kevin Leary. I live (for the past 20 years)on a dirt road that is adjacent to a National Park, and ATV (NON-RESIDENT!) riders come up here every weekend to drink, cowboy around,shoot the place up,and generally try to make up for their masculine shortcomings. GET THEM OUT! Sooner or later, someone is going to be hurt, and I just hope it's in Colorado, were we have the "Make My Day" law, under which a property owner can defend his/her property with deadly force if under fear for his/her life. If you want to ride your ATV around and disrupt everything, buy your own 20 or 40 or 60 acres and do it. Otherwise, stay out of taxpaying residents' neighborhoods. I'm tired of dodging bullets from my neighbor's AK-47.

rockreligious | 7:57 p.m. Dec. 12, 2007

This is a public intox issue, and sexual harrasment issue, not a ohv issue as said previous. There are Jerks who break the law in every setting and those jerks should be properly prosecuted in every setting. Environazis will use this as Ammo agianst public access, but as a responsible ohv'er Myself I pick up Hippie camp trash as Im enjoying the trail often, Maybe Im more an enviromentalist then they. some people love the land, and others love to be activist.

Paul R | 10:09 p.m. Dec. 12, 2007

Like has been said before this IS NOT an ORV problem! MTV and other Spring Break promoters are more to blame than vehicle use. These problem people are trying to live a party lifestyle with little regard to what they do... The major issue is that attitude. I take personal offense to attacks against the OHV and snowmobiling communities. I happen to thoroughly enjoy getting out in nature by many different modes and I use tread lightly approaches. And having gone through the scouting program I always strive to leave the area that I recreate better than I found it. I believe strongly in protecting the environment especially from the idiots mentioned in the article but shutting off all access is not an acceptable solution. These same idiots are going to break the law and get unruly wherever they are. It is not right to punish all people for the actions of a few.

advocate | 12:28 a.m. Dec. 13, 2007

Wow, DesNews climbs to an all new low...

Do tell how ownership in an ORV causes illegal and illicit behavior?

People go to Sand Mountain over Spring Break for a reason, the same reason folks go to Lake Mead, Vegas, MTV 'Spring Break', etc. They know its going to be an out of control free for all party. I've never seen boats blamed for the reckless Lake Mead behavior, nor slot machines for the mayhem in Vegas. Guess they don't have the insight and wisdom of DesNews. (insert my rolling eyes)

my2cents | 7:44 a.m. Dec. 13, 2007

It's very sad to see the generalization going on here. Every large group of people that gather in a specific area is going to make some sort of an impact whether it's a concert, a fair, a tree hugging ceremony, a group of hikers, or equestrians. We need to teach responsible use of the land, we need to show that we can undo some of the damage done by irresponsible users. There are groups that are doing just that by organizing clean ups, adopt a trail, people just packing out more than they pack in.

Public Land User | 1:07 p.m. Dec. 13, 2007

My question to the paper, and the group that conduct the survey?
Why did you only survey 300 people? With the number of individuals in these two organizations, this number is not high enough to give you a good random sampling of answers to your questions! Basic Stats here! And then if you only ask the questions to individuals in these organizations that support your cause, now the survey is not worth the paper it is written on! So now you have wasted my time and everyone elses that reads this.

I recreate on public lands all the time, and very, very seldom see this kind of behavior. If it does happen, someone normally within their group will take charge of the situation, and bring it back under control.
Why not let an independent run the survey with the same questions!

witness | 11:08 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

Things I have personally seen :1. "quad" riders deliberately riding off the trail , doing considerable damage to the landscape . 2. dirt bike riders riding unlicensed bikes on the public hi-way , passing cars on the RIGHT edge of the road . 3. Under age kids riding trikes , and quads , on a county road , at 25 to 30 mph , w/ no helmet , and no adult anywhere in sight , w/ vehicle traffic on the road . . 4. Have watched a number of orv comme ,rcials , and the VAST majority of them glorify the destructive , tear up the land attitude , (ever see the Yamaha one where the two riders ride thru the "corporate" offices , destroying everything in sight , and "forcing" people to scurry out of their way ?)

witness | 11:21 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

continuing w/ things I have PERSONALLY witnessed . Dirt bike riders riding thru a farmers' field of alfalfa , and getting away by cutting thru private property . Calling the sheriff , after witnessing the above behavior , and being told by the deputy that he remembered the things he did on his bike , and they were only kids , and they "probably" wouldn't come back ! Having a neighbor yell at a 15 yr. old for continuiosly riding a large , unmuffled bike onto his property , and being there when the kid's dad called and told him , "I'll kick your a-- if you yell at my kid , again !"

witness | 11:33 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

still more of my PERSONAL experiences w/ orvs . I have been an outdoorsman for most of my life , and spend a CONSIDERABLE amount of time in the woods , and fields . Based on ACTUAL observations , I would say that 99% of the orvers I have come into contact with could care less about Nature , or ethics . All they care about is the noise and the flying dirt , and screw everybody else . It's sad to see what they're doing to the outdoors . It's even sadder that they think it's OK .

wants peace in the forest | 7:27 a.m. Dec. 30, 2007

I believe the Rangers. I think that the kind of people who use these vehicles in forests or deserts only care about the thrill of riding, not the environment.

Folks, you do not have a right to take your off road vehicles anywhere you want.

I can't wait for a new Democratic president who will change the rules and require set aside areas for these noisy and damaging hobbyists.

The wilderness if for nature, not motorized thrill seekers.

act | 10:23 a.m. Jan. 3, 2008

i would suggest writing to the companies that build these orv's and not buying the other products they make like on road motorcycles and cars.

Duke | 11:21 a.m. Jan. 4, 2008

Just this morning I drove to a cultural site on an old Indian trail that leads down a wash near my home. I hadn't driven this difficult, bumpy 4WD road in about two years. I was amazed to see all the new ATV damage along the four miles of the trail. And almost all of it involved these destructively driven vehicles tearing straight up the sides of steep desert hillsides. Erosion has not yet started, but it soon will. What happens then? Ignore the deep vertical eroded tracks and start doing the same thing next to the deep, eroded grooves that simply continue to deepen with time.
In addition to very visible licenses on all four sides of each ATV/dirt bike, severe penalties for irresponsible riding, confiscation of the vehicle and points off on regular vehicle insurance, all public lands should be "CLOSED UNLESS POSTED OPEN."

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