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Church lines equal school lines?
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james stowe | 6:00 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
Keep religion out of politics and politics out of religion. Another way the LDS
want to run the country.
Sleuth | 6:01 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
On its face, this issue stinks! To say it is
�problematic� is an understatement.
It smacks of what one would expect to read in Pete Rose�s,
�They and We,� or a 1964 Civil Rights
Supreme Court Ruling involving the abridgment by the state of equal privileges
and immunities.
Utahans, generally speaking, are weary of such elitist agendas waged by the �select few.� By way of example, when the voucher bill failed it appeared to fail not because it optimistically promoted academic institutional competition against an ugly, bloated, underachieving educational monopoly, but more so because the bill had the appearance of �separate but equal� and �class discrimination,� written all over it. Whether that perception was real, or simply perceived, didn�t seem to matter. The bill�s failure represented a significant political attitude against elitism in Utah.
LDS Church members especially need to be super sensitive to and avoid the appearance of unauthorized and unwarranted �Church action� as that relates to the separation of the powers of Church and state, and not be so readily willing to skirt, if not cross over, the lines dividing them because of some loop-hole in the law.
Utahans, generally speaking, are weary of such elitist agendas waged by the �select few.� By way of example, when the voucher bill failed it appeared to fail not because it optimistically promoted academic institutional competition against an ugly, bloated, underachieving educational monopoly, but more so because the bill had the appearance of �separate but equal� and �class discrimination,� written all over it. Whether that perception was real, or simply perceived, didn�t seem to matter. The bill�s failure represented a significant political attitude against elitism in Utah.
LDS Church members especially need to be super sensitive to and avoid the appearance of unauthorized and unwarranted �Church action� as that relates to the separation of the powers of Church and state, and not be so readily willing to skirt, if not cross over, the lines dividing them because of some loop-hole in the law.
Comments continue below
JP | 6:37 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
It just seems to be inching toward a line that is best not approached. Besides,
with how often ward and stake boundaries are changed, what is the real long-term
value?
Mark | 6:44 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
Sleuth, you make some good points, but I don't think the issue is as clear
as you put it. Since LDS wards are geography based, and often seek to preserve
community boundaries but also provide a balance of economic types, generally
following their boundaries for schools does not exclude individuals any more
than other plans--it probably should be used as ONE input among many, to respect
natural community groupings.
On a side issue, Sleuth, could you consider calling us "Utahns"? That's how we pronounce it, and the use of "Utahans" screams "Eastern outsider that just moved here and doesn't know any better", even though for all I know, you're native born here. Maybe it's just a prejudice, but worth considering.
On a side issue, Sleuth, could you consider calling us "Utahns"? That's how we pronounce it, and the use of "Utahans" screams "Eastern outsider that just moved here and doesn't know any better", even though for all I know, you're native born here. Maybe it's just a prejudice, but worth considering.
Rosemary N. Palmer | 7:14 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
What is funny about this is that outside of the Mormon corridor, ward boundary
decisions regularly consider school boundaries, for all the same reasons that
were articulated in the article --- it is about keeping
"neighborhoods" (which in heavily one-church populated areas can
reasonably include the church neighborhood) intact in support of student
success.
Unless any other situation involves church boundaries that are also geographical boundaries, the situations are simply not comparable. There is no gerrymandering to satisfy a church in the sense that the boundaries are not even or reasonable.
Unless any other situation involves church boundaries that are also geographical boundaries, the situations are simply not comparable. There is no gerrymandering to satisfy a church in the sense that the boundaries are not even or reasonable.
John | 7:25 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
How troubling is this? It is in your face to the non-Mormons in the community.
It is bad enough to have a sweetheart deal between the school districts and the
LDS Church that allows land adjacent to schools to be coincidently purchased for
seminary buildings. Can you imagine the uproar if the school boundaries were
based on Catholic parish boundaries? And people wonder why Mitt is having
trouble. This is about as in-your-face politics as you can get.
Marky | 7:55 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
The only thing that is alarming about this is the reaction. In Arizona, it is
common for the school to solicit input from the LDS community on a number of
issues. Why? It's the best thing for the students. By understanding what
is going on in the lives of the students they serve, the schools are creating an
environment for students to succeed. While schools can ignore the religious
part of a student's life, they do so to the detriment of the student. Does
that mean the schools should let the church dictate school policy? Of course
not. But the refusal to consider significant community influences does not
serve the schools or the students.
Sleuth | 7:58 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
�Good Idea� � In
this story, the mere creation of the appearance of individuals irresponsibly
exercising �Church Action� in official
public school administrations, as
�agents� of the Church, takes
attention away from any merits, which may otherwise be had from the unique
community knowledge contributed toward the school achieving its independent
goals. The story has the appearance of being unfair to non-LDS citizens who
might oppose LDS re-districting strategies advantageous only to
�Mormons.� We are reading about this
story because the �lines� appear to
have been crossed.
There should be no �piggybacking� unless public approval of such �piggybacking� has been achieved by mass political participation, openly and by due process. Quite frankly, the relevancies between public school re-districting, any religious groups, their interpersonal affiliations and church membership boundaries, are not evident and appear extralegal; particularly in a pluralist secular society where the powers of Church and State comingling are strictly forbidden.
This story has the appearance of a �shoulder-to-shoulder� relationships by Church and State, not permitted by law, and it is quite serious considering that such breaches (when true and sometimes when spurious) can have the effects of eroding public confidence in the legitimacy of all of our institutions.
There should be no �piggybacking� unless public approval of such �piggybacking� has been achieved by mass political participation, openly and by due process. Quite frankly, the relevancies between public school re-districting, any religious groups, their interpersonal affiliations and church membership boundaries, are not evident and appear extralegal; particularly in a pluralist secular society where the powers of Church and State comingling are strictly forbidden.
This story has the appearance of a �shoulder-to-shoulder� relationships by Church and State, not permitted by law, and it is quite serious considering that such breaches (when true and sometimes when spurious) can have the effects of eroding public confidence in the legitimacy of all of our institutions.
What I know | 8:01 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
My ward consists of a minimum of 10 elementary schools, 4 middle schools and 5
high schools. I do not think using ward boundaries would work where I am (not
in Utah).
Sleuth: Get over yourself and your Utahan attitudes toward anyone not from there. It is this attitude that makes a lot of people visiting or moving into Utah very uncomfortable. I lived there twice and pray I never live there again.
Sleuth: Get over yourself and your Utahan attitudes toward anyone not from there. It is this attitude that makes a lot of people visiting or moving into Utah very uncomfortable. I lived there twice and pray I never live there again.
Joe Moe | 8:02 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
Those who object to this seem to think that the LDS Church gains something by
it. What, exactly? And at whose expense, really? Are they trying to make one
school more LDS and the other less? Sure doesn't look like it. And this
"establishment clause" concern: pray tell, in what way is a
government entity establishing religion by this?
Forgive me, I'm not from around there, but is this conspiracy real or imagined?
Forgive me, I'm not from around there, but is this conspiracy real or imagined?
DH | 8:08 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
What a non issue. Don't we have better things to worry about?
Don't do it | 8:11 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
Boundaries change all the time and the minute the school district follows the
"ward" boundaries, the ward boundaries will change!
The school district should look at what is best for the district and the children.
Our ward was assigned to two different elementary schools in Granite Dist. and the diversity was wonderful for the kids.
Do you believe the church goes to a school district when they want to divide or consolidate wards? I don't think so.
The school district should look at what is best for the district and the children.
Our ward was assigned to two different elementary schools in Granite Dist. and the diversity was wonderful for the kids.
Do you believe the church goes to a school district when they want to divide or consolidate wards? I don't think so.
School should be separate | 8:18 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
Joe Moe, at who's expense? At the expense of the non-Mormon children who
are outsiders as it is. Not following ward boundaries will force the Mormon kids
to look outside thier ward for friends making the school SLIGHTLY more
inclusive.
Mona | 8:21 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
John, up here in Oregon there is no 'sweetheart deal' with the school
districts. The Church has to work pretty hard to get a convenient place for a
seminary building.
It's nice for the kids when they go to Church & school with the same people but outside of Utah it doesn't happen often. Our kids manage to survive here in Oregon even though our ward boundaries include a number of different schools at each level. The impractical thing about Provo District consulting with local LDS leaders is that what happens when ward boundaries change every few years? Surely the school district isn't going to redraw their boundaries when that happens.
It's nice for the kids when they go to Church & school with the same people but outside of Utah it doesn't happen often. Our kids manage to survive here in Oregon even though our ward boundaries include a number of different schools at each level. The impractical thing about Provo District consulting with local LDS leaders is that what happens when ward boundaries change every few years? Surely the school district isn't going to redraw their boundaries when that happens.
Tysonatthemovies | 8:28 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
Another prime example of the over zealously religious people in Utah being
unwilling or unable to separate their religion from the State. What about the
non-LDS kids, bet they feel left out or at least treated differently as they are
not part of the groups their LDS counterparts are in.
Fredd | 8:28 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
This is a typical occurence in Utah. Well meaning city leaders meet with local
church leaders to consult on issues. It is not the institution getting involved
but local leaders. (Although on occasion the institution does get involved)
When I coached my daughters softball teams I couldn't practise on Monday
night. Not imposed by the league, but the players families nixed it. The LDS
church membership can dominate Utah politics when they choose. Its simple math.
We used to have a wonderful tradition of neighbor gifts around Xmas. The local
ward relief society decided to donate the money we would have used for our
neighbor gifts to charity. I was heart broken. I loved exchanging home made
stuff with my neighbors. But the RS made a decision and everyone followed it.
The same applies to politics. Frankly, if you live in Utah you have to live
with it. Its a nice state. Lousy deli's though.
Sleuth | 8:42 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
For the record, I spelled checked "Utahns," being unfamiliar with its
spelling and I got �Utahans.� For
this egregious error, apologize and I submit my first born of my goat flock to
make amends. But now I am completely confused. I will say
�citizens of Utah� in the future.
The merits of my argument against church and state comingling are not geo-political personal preferences. They are evident issues in the law. Churches and their assigned agents need make certain they do not cross the "separation of powers" boundaries, even if invited to do so. This necessity will preserve their legitimacy under the law and in the opinions their antagonists.
Ironically, the same persons can participate in such meetings, but open equal representation should always be a part of any publically held meetings, so as not to give any competing political group any unfair advantages. There should never be a �back room� special meeting, or even the appearance of such a one by any Church. The problem here is you have church officials acting as agents for the Church disseminating private church information; such as where its members specifically live and what is best for them exclusively.
The merits of my argument against church and state comingling are not geo-political personal preferences. They are evident issues in the law. Churches and their assigned agents need make certain they do not cross the "separation of powers" boundaries, even if invited to do so. This necessity will preserve their legitimacy under the law and in the opinions their antagonists.
Ironically, the same persons can participate in such meetings, but open equal representation should always be a part of any publically held meetings, so as not to give any competing political group any unfair advantages. There should never be a �back room� special meeting, or even the appearance of such a one by any Church. The problem here is you have church officials acting as agents for the Church disseminating private church information; such as where its members specifically live and what is best for them exclusively.
Sensible Sam | 8:55 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
Since the boundary changes would have no effect on non-LDS students, I see no
legal or constitutional problem like the New York school issues raised in the
article.
To Don't Do It | 8:58 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
Speaking from experience: yes the church does go to school districts when they
want to divide or consolidate wards - at least, they do outside of Utah.
It's a major consideration, if it's at all possible geographically
when combined with ecclesiastical needs.
I can't believe there's "so much ado about nothing" in Utah.
Our school district here in Illinois has to change boundaries periodically, and there are many factors they take into consideration,but especially neighborhoods and established groups. (Aren't ward boundaries basically "neighborhoods")? They also don't freak out when someone mentions church groups, congregations, Bible preschool groups, established class groups, etc, when those are part of the decision process. They realize that children form bonds that facilitate scholastic success.
I can't believe there's "so much ado about nothing" in Utah.
Our school district here in Illinois has to change boundaries periodically, and there are many factors they take into consideration,but especially neighborhoods and established groups. (Aren't ward boundaries basically "neighborhoods")? They also don't freak out when someone mentions church groups, congregations, Bible preschool groups, established class groups, etc, when those are part of the decision process. They realize that children form bonds that facilitate scholastic success.
henry | 9:16 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
Hmmm.
Most the time it's the other way around where I've lived. Usually the LDS Stakes adjust their boundaries around the school district's boundaries - not the other way around.
Oh well, it's Utah County. Waddya expect.
Most the time it's the other way around where I've lived. Usually the LDS Stakes adjust their boundaries around the school district's boundaries - not the other way around.
Oh well, it's Utah County. Waddya expect.
Josh | 9:17 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
Way to go Utah! I congratulate you for, once again, making sure the line
between church (LDS) and state remains blurred. The fact that school districts
would even consider going to the church is totally outrageous. But then again,
it is Utah county and the church rules EVERY decision down there.
Idahoan | 9:25 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
My oh my. How is creating school boundaries geographically going to hurt someone
who isn't LDS more than it hurts someone who is? It doesn't. There are
no secret deals being made here. Nobody is trying to exclude people who are not
LDS from a school. Just understand that geographical boundaries make sense. Why
not consult for ideas? If something works for one, maybe it will work for
someone else. Then again maybe not. It seems to me to be a natural part of
decision-making to consult with others.
(By the way Fred, have you ever gone to Gandolfo's? They are a deli that I liked in Utah. Just to add a light note to this discussion!)
(By the way Fred, have you ever gone to Gandolfo's? They are a deli that I liked in Utah. Just to add a light note to this discussion!)
Get over it.... | 9:32 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
What a joke of an article. Total non-issue.
Do people even know what the Boulders is like? Anything the church and district can do to help the people out that live there is a step in the right direction.
Unfortunately, the comments section of the Des news is soon going to go the way of the comments in the Daily Herald. Mormon bashing....
Do people even know what the Boulders is like? Anything the church and district can do to help the people out that live there is a step in the right direction.
Unfortunately, the comments section of the Des news is soon going to go the way of the comments in the Daily Herald. Mormon bashing....
Anonymous | 9:34 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
Funny thing is that the council talked with the United Way, before they talked
with the LDS Church. And they were given the exact same answers. Next time,
actually read the article. Don't just gloss over it. And think about the
fact that the students would have more support from their peers. Didn't we
all want to go to school with our best friend?
Just forget that they asked the LDS Church. They already had the same information from somebody else!
Just forget that they asked the LDS Church. They already had the same information from somebody else!
BJ | 9:49 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
This complaining is ridiculous. The entire point here is that the school
district is trying to look out for the welfare of the children. The boulders is
not a posh resort, but some lower income apartments. The district is just trying
to give children a consistent experience to enable a better learning process.
The reality is that 80% of those children are LDS and that it makes sense to
discuss what's best to holistically give children the best experience
possible. Consulting Stake and Ward leadership is a no brainer. If my children
lived in an area with an 80% active Catholic population I would expect the
district to take that into consideration, and even consult the local diocese, in
order to provide the majority of the children the best educational experience
possible.
Anonymous | 9:52 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
you guys are so hilarious...this is such a non-issue. My child will be part of
the boundary changes, and really, it has nothing to do with church boundaries at
all. It has to do with socio-economic issues, and trying to keep the same
number of elementary children in the feeder schools to the jr. High and High
school levels. The consultations were not some hidden agenda by the LDS church
to gain control of the schools. Holy cow. YOu guys are just too funny. It is
a matter of using already drawn boundaries as a guide. I laugh at how every
single article turns into LDS bashing.
T-Rex | 9:58 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
How idiotic can you be. Ward boundaries change all the time. Right now, they are
building an LDS churchhouse across the street from the elementary school that is
being built in the Lakeview neighborhood. Do you think that will change
ward/stake boundaries in that neighborhood? Will the school board call an
emergency meeting to change their boundaries in accordance with the new ward
boundaries. Chalk this one up to a lazy, short-sighted city council. Rather than
determine what these neighborhoods actual needs are they'll just defer to
the LDS Church and trust that they've done their homework.
Consider this | 10:05 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
I have been in several Wards/Stakes that have changed boundaries after they have
grown to a certain size. Most of the time, the city, county,and school
boundaries are taken into consideration and made for the convenience of the
membership. So why not let the school adjust to the community needs and then
reconfigure to new ward boundaries if it is deemed necessary after the fact.
This will keep the ACLU off the backs of the school district and really keep
church and state separate.
bergstro | 10:05 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
Oh Boy! As soon as I read this article, I thought "bring on the
Mormon-haters." Where is that "My Jesus isn't Satan's
brother" guy. I love him.
Spanish Fork | 10:24 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
For those of you living outside of Utah, you really have no perception of the
problem. As far as the non-mormons are concerned in Provo are concerned, you
will never know the difference. For those that don't understand, many wards
even stakes are already within a border of single school. Boundaries along stake
and ward lines wouldn't harm non-mormons or those of you that live out of
the state. This seems like one of those childish issues where one child is
jealous of another for reasons most would consider just immaturity. Many only
resist because they hate Mormons in general (see national politics), especially
in Utah where they are surrounded by them and feel a loss of the influence that
they may have had in other locations.
Lost in most of the discussion is what is best for the schools and the students. Few of the non-mormons even know what present ward and stake boundaries are.
By the way, Utahns spell it "Utahn." Only those depending on the dictionary or those from out of state spell it "Utahan." As in many things, the dictionary writers refuse to check with us. We intentionally do it our own way.
Lost in most of the discussion is what is best for the schools and the students. Few of the non-mormons even know what present ward and stake boundaries are.
By the way, Utahns spell it "Utahn." Only those depending on the dictionary or those from out of state spell it "Utahan." As in many things, the dictionary writers refuse to check with us. We intentionally do it our own way.
Sleuth | 10:29 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
Anonymous:
Even the Church teaches to avoid the very appearances of evil. Giving the school districts private church membership records of residences, numbers of children, relative genders, etc., enabling them to formulate districting boundaries has the appearances of partiality, influenced by a religious group. Perhaps that religious group is more highly favored than another group. By way of example, if the "Hells Angels" had a large chapter lawfully living in the community, would the school officials equally ask their membership for their input and publically publish their cooperation? We're talking about �process� here; not �content.�This error is akin to the illicit sex argument; inside marital bounds it's lovely, outside, it�s disgrace (speaking from a Mormon perspective).
There may be absolutely nothing wrong with the data exchanged and it just might prove quite useful, but �institutions� are "highly valued recurring behavior" (Samuel P. Huntington, �Political Development and Political Decay�). It might well be that we put aside what people personally prefer and reinforce acting like a unified polity with liberty and justice for all.
Do we want our churches to meet with school districts in open forums or in private meetings which lead to incipient eroding public confidences and speculations?
Even the Church teaches to avoid the very appearances of evil. Giving the school districts private church membership records of residences, numbers of children, relative genders, etc., enabling them to formulate districting boundaries has the appearances of partiality, influenced by a religious group. Perhaps that religious group is more highly favored than another group. By way of example, if the "Hells Angels" had a large chapter lawfully living in the community, would the school officials equally ask their membership for their input and publically publish their cooperation? We're talking about �process� here; not �content.�This error is akin to the illicit sex argument; inside marital bounds it's lovely, outside, it�s disgrace (speaking from a Mormon perspective).
There may be absolutely nothing wrong with the data exchanged and it just might prove quite useful, but �institutions� are "highly valued recurring behavior" (Samuel P. Huntington, �Political Development and Political Decay�). It might well be that we put aside what people personally prefer and reinforce acting like a unified polity with liberty and justice for all.
Do we want our churches to meet with school districts in open forums or in private meetings which lead to incipient eroding public confidences and speculations?
Charles H | 10:37 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
As others have pointed out, the inputs that should be considered by school
boards drawing school boundaries are the same inputs considered by the LDS
church in drawing congregational boundaries.
Those ward boundaries are also the boundaries for scout troops and other youth programs. Splitting up such communities to different schools would not benefit the students.
The school board in our area used to save a lot of money in planning classes the following year by calling a few LDS primary presidents and asking how many children were going to start school the next year. The primary presidents usually knew of both LDS children and children who were not LDS who fit that bill.
Rather than running blind until the first day of school, or spending a lot of money on polls, the district made use of an existing resource to get data for the cost of a half dozen phone calls. It was not different than calling neighborhood watch captains, if NW were as ubiquitous in the area and as well informed of the relevant material as were primary presidents.
But someone objected, so now tax money is wasted trying to gather the info another way.
Those ward boundaries are also the boundaries for scout troops and other youth programs. Splitting up such communities to different schools would not benefit the students.
The school board in our area used to save a lot of money in planning classes the following year by calling a few LDS primary presidents and asking how many children were going to start school the next year. The primary presidents usually knew of both LDS children and children who were not LDS who fit that bill.
Rather than running blind until the first day of school, or spending a lot of money on polls, the district made use of an existing resource to get data for the cost of a half dozen phone calls. It was not different than calling neighborhood watch captains, if NW were as ubiquitous in the area and as well informed of the relevant material as were primary presidents.
But someone objected, so now tax money is wasted trying to gather the info another way.
Anonymous | 10:38 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
I don't know what else you can compare this to. Catholic parishes
aren't always geographical, at least they weren't in the predominantly
Catholic town where I was raised. And the Catholic school students rode on the
school district's buses, unless they lived outside of the district.
I'm not sure about what other churches are based on geographical
boundaries.
Just one mom | 11:18 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
I am so tired of the "mormon vs nonmormon" debate in this state. I
was raised in a community where three churches dominated - the Catholic church,
the Lutheran church and the Methodist church. At the age of 16 when I converted
to the LDS faith I became the only "Mormon" in my high school. At
high school graduation my bishop was asked to give the benediction so that all
students in our school could be represented. As I see it, as the majority
religion, we have a responsibility to be kind and inclusive. Those of other
faiths have this same responsibility. We also all have the responsibility to
not be easily offended, or look for offense where non is intended. In deciding
school boundaries, the needs of the children involved should be foremost, and if
that takes consulting with a Mormon bishop, a Catholic Priest or a Lutheran
Minister for advice, then that is what should be done. Seeking advice from
those who know the neighborhoods better, whether they are the United Way, or a
religious leader, only makes sense. Let's not once again turn to
unnecessary knee-jerk reactions to a simple issue.
Helen Lovejoy | 11:21 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
Will someone pleeeeeeease think of the children?!
Silly Approach | 11:23 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
What happens when the stake boundary changes?
Ah, the Entitlements! | 11:38 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
This is an absolute joke. I lived in an area where I was the only Mormon in my
graduating high school class. As a matter of fact, four high schools from four
separate school districts fed the little branch we attended. We're there
problems or rivalries? No way. We were just glad to see each other.
That being said, I will never understand the attitude of entitlement that exists among some folks have who live within the shadows of the Wasatch. Does any LDS stake come to a school district when it wants to change the boundaries of its wards? No way. But when a school district tries to change boundaries, watch out. Those who are entitled come out screaming. Some even sue so that their ward won't feed two schools. Parents are sometimes the worst role models that exist out there.
I think the Entitlements need to listen to Mitt Romney's recent Faith speech and figure out where their ecclesiastical boundary line exists, because at this point, they are way past it.
And that's saying nothing about those who complain about religious persecution, who then turn around and blatantly persecute those who don't necessarily believe as they do.
That being said, I will never understand the attitude of entitlement that exists among some folks have who live within the shadows of the Wasatch. Does any LDS stake come to a school district when it wants to change the boundaries of its wards? No way. But when a school district tries to change boundaries, watch out. Those who are entitled come out screaming. Some even sue so that their ward won't feed two schools. Parents are sometimes the worst role models that exist out there.
I think the Entitlements need to listen to Mitt Romney's recent Faith speech and figure out where their ecclesiastical boundary line exists, because at this point, they are way past it.
And that's saying nothing about those who complain about religious persecution, who then turn around and blatantly persecute those who don't necessarily believe as they do.
Chill-out | 11:40 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
Who else to know the borders of their communities than leaders of their
communities meaning anyone, who is a leader political or religious. This goes
back to the beginning of Utah. Members and Non members still making sure one
side is in check!
I don't care if the school districts ask the Jewish faith, Catholic faith who cares do what is right for the community! Get input from everyone!
The best thing is let's worry more about important issues like poverty and who is going to get us out of the mess the United States is in right now. The value of the dollar? The war on Iraq? Major issues! Not whether the school board talked to the LDS church about boundaries. PLEASE!!!
I don't care if the school districts ask the Jewish faith, Catholic faith who cares do what is right for the community! Get input from everyone!
The best thing is let's worry more about important issues like poverty and who is going to get us out of the mess the United States is in right now. The value of the dollar? The war on Iraq? Major issues! Not whether the school board talked to the LDS church about boundaries. PLEASE!!!
Josh Peterson | 11:41 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
Shoot me now, the misery must end.
Wut?!?! | 11:51 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
Who is this Sleuth guy? Just because you can use big fancy words doesn't
mean you know what you are talking about! Blah, blah, blah! I agree with Anon
and those of you who are saying this is a non-issue. Would it be such an issue
if it was a predominantly Catholic neighborhood and they were trying to keep the
students who attend the same church in the same school. This "Utahn"
doesn't think so! Get over it!
Lonely High Schooler | 12:00 p.m. Dec. 11, 2007
High school is bad enough for non-Mormons already. I felt SO excluded - every
time I tried to befriend a Mormon student, it turned out they already had a
whole group of friends from their ward or seminary class and didn't need
another friend, especially one that wouldn't fit in.
I agree that having friends in high school really makes a difference in academic achievement - that's why we need to split up the Mormon kids as much as possible so they are forced to befriend all those lonely non-Mormons. And get rid of those stupid seminaries! Their presence is highly oppressive for the minority.
I agree that having friends in high school really makes a difference in academic achievement - that's why we need to split up the Mormon kids as much as possible so they are forced to befriend all those lonely non-Mormons. And get rid of those stupid seminaries! Their presence is highly oppressive for the minority.
Melanie Kae | 12:03 p.m. Dec. 11, 2007
If the issue was about the education board independantly seeking church input or
church leaders pressing the issue, it would definately be a problem. However, if
you read the artical, some parents ASKED for the scholl boundries to follow ward
lines. This IS public input. The board has a responsability to follow up on the
request. IF this is supported by the majority and does not infringe on the
rights of the minority, then the board should use those lines. What I would like
to see is how many requests there were and if there was a meeting. Only then can
you judge the issue. BTW, I am LDS and I can tell you it can be very isolating
when you go to a schol that others in your stake does not (at stake functions
our ward was mostly ignored)
What I know | 12:25 p.m. Dec. 11, 2007
Sleuth: my previous remark was directed at Mark, not you, this inability to
read probably had something to do with going to school in SLC.
What I know | 12:35 p.m. Dec. 11, 2007
From Mark: "the use of "Utahans" screams "Eastern outsider
that just moved here and doesn't know any better", even though for all
I know, you're native born here. Maybe it's just a prejudice, but
worth considering."
This is what makes Utah so intolerable for those moving into the state or even just visiting, whether they be LDS or Not. Using the term "Outsider" has many connotations.
This is what makes Utah so intolerable for those moving into the state or even just visiting, whether they be LDS or Not. Using the term "Outsider" has many connotations.
Anonymous | 12:45 p.m. Dec. 11, 2007
After the Floods of 1983 in Davis County, in which everybody helped everybody,
the city and county government called on community leaders, including all
faiths, and prepared an Emergency Plan for the next time something major hit
(we're sittin' on the Wasatch Fault).
How to implement a plan that would reach everyone quickly? According to my friend who was in the meetings, the Catholic and Baptist leaders suggested, then insisted, it use LDS stake and ward boundaries -- because they are already defined and organized.
So logical, so easy to implement, to aid everyone in each geographical area regardless of affiliation.
They didn't stress out.
Let's not.
How to implement a plan that would reach everyone quickly? According to my friend who was in the meetings, the Catholic and Baptist leaders suggested, then insisted, it use LDS stake and ward boundaries -- because they are already defined and organized.
So logical, so easy to implement, to aid everyone in each geographical area regardless of affiliation.
They didn't stress out.
Let's not.
Anonymous | 1:00 p.m. Dec. 11, 2007
The appropriate way to do this would be to let the school district draw the
lines, and then have the stakes and wards redistribute their boundaries in order
to match the schools.
That would have been the appropriate way to do this, which is the exact opposite way.
That would have been the appropriate way to do this, which is the exact opposite way.
O.P. Rockwell | 1:01 p.m. Dec. 11, 2007
Only in Utah, is this kind of political behavior "tolerated". Provo
Board of Education deserves getting tossed out, for such blatant behavior. What
a joke.
Wait a minute! It IS in Utah County.
Aha! That explains the "moral authority" used to make such decisions.~~~~~
Wait a minute! It IS in Utah County.
Aha! That explains the "moral authority" used to make such decisions.~~~~~
Lisa | 1:29 p.m. Dec. 11, 2007
Before leaving the tiresome attitudes of LDS members, our children had a few
friends in our ward. Our street was in a different school boundry than the rest
of the ward. Our children had friends from school. Our kids have different
friends from their dance school in another part of the city. At least half of
their friends are not LDS. We have great, diverse birthday parties. And your
precious LDS kids weren't negatively influenced by the non LDS kids.
I've said it here before, the kindest, most non-judgemental people I know
are NOT LDS.
Don | 1:58 p.m. Dec. 11, 2007
Good grief people; the school district merely asked for their input.
It�s not like they handed over the entire process to the
LDS church and said, �Get back to us when you have the
boundaries drawn the way you�d like them, so that we can
just adopt your plan�.
What�s wrong with a school district being good neighbors and asking for the opinions of those that will be impacted by their decisions? Sounds like the LDS church wasn�t the only organization that was consulted � just the only organization that would get a small segment of the population riled (and not even the resident population that�s being affected). I didn�t read a single response that said they were within the area under study and claimed that their rights were being infringed upon by such an unfair process. The cry is coming from the separation of church from life group.
What�s wrong with a school district being good neighbors and asking for the opinions of those that will be impacted by their decisions? Sounds like the LDS church wasn�t the only organization that was consulted � just the only organization that would get a small segment of the population riled (and not even the resident population that�s being affected). I didn�t read a single response that said they were within the area under study and claimed that their rights were being infringed upon by such an unfair process. The cry is coming from the separation of church from life group.
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1) the ward boundaries are used as a starting point, not a final plan, for school boundaries;
2) the total student population distribution, regardless of religious affiliation, is used to adjust the boundaries as needed;
3) the Church and its leaders are not exerting, or seen as exerting, undue influence; and
4) the school district recognizes that the Church has not committed to help realign school boundaries now or in the future.
I'm not crazy about school district officials meeting with Church leaders. If the meetings are just to hand off the ward boundary data, fine. If the meetings are also to discuss what the new school boundaries should be, let that discussion take place in a school board meeting or other public forum, where Church leaders can have their say just like the rest of us.