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Immigration bills brewing
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Tickedoffchick | 2:23 a.m. Dec. 10, 2007
Glad to see it! The Oklahoma law should be used as an example for all states.
Beyond Dispare | 5:43 a.m. Dec. 10, 2007
Go Bill Hickman! Run for governor, you will win on this issue alone. Illegals
must leave the country and show some respect for American laws and culture.
Comments continue below
OneVote | 7:27 a.m. Dec. 10, 2007
Now is the time for this debate. Even Dem candidates for President are being
held accountable for their comments (like New York driving permits). Perhaps
now we will begin an honest evaluation of the problem rather than cower at the
accusation of racism. According to a November report by the Center for
Immigration Studies, Utah has had an 81% increase in the immigrant population in
the last seven years. Addressing the illegal segment of the population will go
a long way in the fight against discrimination, and aid assimilation of the
foreign-born into our population.
GI JU | 8:21 a.m. Dec. 10, 2007
This great country has always been able to find a solution to the immigration
problem since the 1800's. There were undesirable italians, polish, irish
immigrants and so on, but through some relaxation of the laws there was always a
solution to their problem. Nowadays, the INS is backlogged with too many
applications for residency and despite charging disparatory fees they are
shortstaffed to speed up the process. Last night, at the spanish republican
debate none of the candidates came forward with a proposal to solve this giant
problem. It seems they were too afraid to alienate the voters.
A bill was killed this year and a solution is not within sight. We hear whipping bills at the local level, but what goes around come around. Some cities are begging for workers to come back. Let these people have access to some kind of temporary legal status so they can go on with their lives. Just as the pioneers of this state and country were given an opportunity to stay, these people who managed to have good records also should be given a chance to fix their papers.
A bill was killed this year and a solution is not within sight. We hear whipping bills at the local level, but what goes around come around. Some cities are begging for workers to come back. Let these people have access to some kind of temporary legal status so they can go on with their lives. Just as the pioneers of this state and country were given an opportunity to stay, these people who managed to have good records also should be given a chance to fix their papers.
BBKing | 8:25 a.m. Dec. 10, 2007
This measure should be passed as an order of common sense. We are a generous
people but with a national debt AND obligation (read: future pork spending)
totaling over $60 trillion, it is time to say uncle on more hand-outs.
And this will affect the largest generator of illegal immigration, which comes from visa overstays. Last I heard, that was about 60% of all illegal aliens.
Now, how to fix the visa. I have long thought that since Washington DC does not want to fix the visa, Utah should. That is clearly a Federal role but since they won't....
At some point the enforcement crowd has to get serious about fixing the visa problem. So far they have yelled NO at the top of their collective lungs. What about fixing the other half of this problem?
And this will affect the largest generator of illegal immigration, which comes from visa overstays. Last I heard, that was about 60% of all illegal aliens.
Now, how to fix the visa. I have long thought that since Washington DC does not want to fix the visa, Utah should. That is clearly a Federal role but since they won't....
At some point the enforcement crowd has to get serious about fixing the visa problem. So far they have yelled NO at the top of their collective lungs. What about fixing the other half of this problem?
IM | 8:37 a.m. Dec. 10, 2007
This is so silly. I have worked this issue for years now and can hold my own in
any debate.
1-We need workers here in Utah.
2-You can't hold an employer accountable if he or she doesn't have the tools to verify the status of a person prior to hiring.
3-Arrests of aggravated felons foreign-nationals has significantly increased.
4-We aren't going to kick out every single illegal in the country.
5-Not every illegal can be bunched under the same umbrella. What about the child that's brought here by his parents and hasn't done anything wrong? Is he the same as an illegal thief?
1-We need workers here in Utah.
2-You can't hold an employer accountable if he or she doesn't have the tools to verify the status of a person prior to hiring.
3-Arrests of aggravated felons foreign-nationals has significantly increased.
4-We aren't going to kick out every single illegal in the country.
5-Not every illegal can be bunched under the same umbrella. What about the child that's brought here by his parents and hasn't done anything wrong? Is he the same as an illegal thief?
Charles | 9:08 a.m. Dec. 10, 2007
I hope they pass it. I will also enjoy watching the ensuing crash of the Utah
economy. Prices will sky rocket and the cheapest citizens on the face of the
planet will finally be slammed into the real world. Grow up, this issue is about
money not national security. Everyone wants change until it requires them to
change. Watch your food and services prices triple. And don't think your
lazy spoiled kids will fill the employmee base void. You have already ruined
that notion by creating a generation of entitlement. Good Luck Utah, you need
it.
Not so silly | 9:14 a.m. Dec. 10, 2007
IM, what's silly is you've been working this issue "for
years", yet even I can answer these questions.
1-Without illegals we would still have workers in Utah. The market finds a way. We did fine before illegals, we will be fine after them.
2-Employers make new employees fill out a W-4 which requires a SSN. The problem is employers who don't WANT to make a legal hire. That's easily fixed with better enforcement.
3-True.
4-We don't need to. Take away the jobs and illegals will remove themselves.
5-How about this? Every child brought or born here to illegal immigrants would be deported with his/her parents, but have a waiver that allows him/her to immigrate legally when he/she turns 18.
1-Without illegals we would still have workers in Utah. The market finds a way. We did fine before illegals, we will be fine after them.
2-Employers make new employees fill out a W-4 which requires a SSN. The problem is employers who don't WANT to make a legal hire. That's easily fixed with better enforcement.
3-True.
4-We don't need to. Take away the jobs and illegals will remove themselves.
5-How about this? Every child brought or born here to illegal immigrants would be deported with his/her parents, but have a waiver that allows him/her to immigrate legally when he/she turns 18.
JH | 9:16 a.m. Dec. 10, 2007
I beleive any normal average american would be up to solving this problem ,
however we must remember that this great nation was built upon foreigners and
immigrants.. We should not simply assume that all illegal aliens are commiting
crimes, we have many illegal aliens that are hardworking people and paying their
due taxes, therefore we should treat criminals as criminals for whatever crime
they commit, being an illegal immigrant or not, but not classify all the illegal
immigrants under the same catagory, because they have not been able to obtain
their permanant residency. We should look for ways to stop additional illegal
entries by secureing our borders, and find a common agreement to provide
residencies for those illegal that have been in the country for a specific
number of years, in which can provide proof of tax payments or deductions and
with a clean criminal record. This should not be a difficult task as most of
these people are already here in the country anyways..
We should not envolve our local law enforcement in border enforcement, the police is here to protect and to serve and not to play the role of immigration.
We should not envolve our local law enforcement in border enforcement, the police is here to protect and to serve and not to play the role of immigration.
wh mcdonald | 9:22 a.m. Dec. 10, 2007
1. employ local legal help at a respectable wage.2. employers do have the tools
to work with( S.S. number) 3. arrests need to cover more than aggravated felons.
( illegal aliens ). 4 if no jobs are available they will self deport. 5 why
should the tax payer pick up the tab for illegal kids it is not the tax payers
fault.
Nate | 9:22 a.m. Dec. 10, 2007
Blah Blah Blah...let's just keep treating the symptoms of immigration, but
never talk about the cause. People don't walk across deserts and wade
through rivers with infants and pregnant wives because they want an X-Box 360.
They do this because their living conditions are so desperate that they feel
there is no other option. All this talk of deportation and employment
enforcement is nothing more than a re-visit to prohibition.
It's a fundamental law..."nature abhors a vacuum." If you make it harder to get here, they'll work harder to get here. If you make it impossible to find legitimate work, they will find illegitimate work. Until we address the fundamental disparity in quality of life between America and other countries, all these laws are going to accomplish is increasing crime, drugs, and violence. As if our current prison system isn't over-crowded enough.
It's a fundamental law..."nature abhors a vacuum." If you make it harder to get here, they'll work harder to get here. If you make it impossible to find legitimate work, they will find illegitimate work. Until we address the fundamental disparity in quality of life between America and other countries, all these laws are going to accomplish is increasing crime, drugs, and violence. As if our current prison system isn't over-crowded enough.
Anonymous | 9:56 a.m. Dec. 10, 2007
Learn to love your hispanic brothers. They really don't want to be here any
more than you want them to be here.
Don't generate any bad karma for yourselves by harboring any hidden racist agendas.
Don't generate any bad karma for yourselves by harboring any hidden racist agendas.
Angie | 10:01 a.m. Dec. 10, 2007
Well-said, Nate. I also think people are afraid of losing their own culture, as
the numbers of immigrants and the children they give birth to, increase
exponentially. People are afraid of the U.S. turning into another Mexico.
I'll bite | 10:12 a.m. Dec. 10, 2007
OK Nate, how do you plan to do that? How do you plan to turn Mexico's
economy into the U.S.'s? Or is it that you plan to turn the U.S.'s
economy into Mexico's? I'll let you guess which one would be easier
to accomplish.
It's easy to sit here on a message board in Utah and talk about making the world this quality of life utopia, but it's quite another to make it happen. Until I hear your plan, I'm going to assume you're just talking to hear yourself talk. Everything you've suggested is just pie in the sky.
The more realistic solution is to make it so hard for illegals to get work that they can't afford to stay here.
It's easy to sit here on a message board in Utah and talk about making the world this quality of life utopia, but it's quite another to make it happen. Until I hear your plan, I'm going to assume you're just talking to hear yourself talk. Everything you've suggested is just pie in the sky.
The more realistic solution is to make it so hard for illegals to get work that they can't afford to stay here.
M. Butler | 10:14 a.m. Dec. 10, 2007
Not so silly says:
We did fine before illegals, we will be fine after them.
Yeah, you'll do fine when they all leave. But good luck in seeing the economy implode for the 10 or 20 years it would take to recover. Take out all the undocumented workers from the hospitality, construction and landscaping businesses. Do it all in one fell swoop. And watch as all the business that rely on the businesses that hire the undocumented fold up.
Nate's right. People don't cross deserts and wade rivers just for a few extra dollars to buy crap. They make that difficult and dangerous journey because the conditions they're escaping from are so desparate.
And Bill Hickman wants to turn the Statue of Liberty into a jack-booted Gestapo man.
We did fine before illegals, we will be fine after them.
Yeah, you'll do fine when they all leave. But good luck in seeing the economy implode for the 10 or 20 years it would take to recover. Take out all the undocumented workers from the hospitality, construction and landscaping businesses. Do it all in one fell swoop. And watch as all the business that rely on the businesses that hire the undocumented fold up.
Nate's right. People don't cross deserts and wade rivers just for a few extra dollars to buy crap. They make that difficult and dangerous journey because the conditions they're escaping from are so desparate.
And Bill Hickman wants to turn the Statue of Liberty into a jack-booted Gestapo man.
Go Nate | 10:14 a.m. Dec. 10, 2007
Yeah Nate, that's the solution: Make the U.S. into a worse-off country than
Mexico so all the illegals leave. *rolls eyes*
David C. | 10:26 a.m. Dec. 10, 2007
Nate, maybe it's not for an Xbox. Maybe it's for a tricked-out truck,
or a Caddy with chrome rims and a custom paint job. Are trying to say
they're here to just to put food on the table? I saw quite a few Spanish
speaking shoppers checking out flat screen TV's last night.
It has been shown that crime rates are higher with illegal aliens. In the recent drug crackdown near Pioneer Park, the majority caught dealing were undocumented Hispanics. That's a fact. It's also true that most do not have a H.S. education.
I agree that it's too bad we can't parce out the best of these immigrants and give them a chance at citizenship. But if it's a package deal, and we need to take them with the illiterate, gang members and other criminals, I say NO THANKS!
It has been shown that crime rates are higher with illegal aliens. In the recent drug crackdown near Pioneer Park, the majority caught dealing were undocumented Hispanics. That's a fact. It's also true that most do not have a H.S. education.
I agree that it's too bad we can't parce out the best of these immigrants and give them a chance at citizenship. But if it's a package deal, and we need to take them with the illiterate, gang members and other criminals, I say NO THANKS!
net_50 | 10:27 a.m. Dec. 10, 2007
The only thing McCain can do is to send our forces to other countries, but lacks
all will to stop the illegal immigration into our country. He would not ever
give us our rights to not be invaded, he simply says to the illegals "here
kitty kitty.
Porkey Pig | 10:39 a.m. Dec. 10, 2007
Most Americans support legal immigration, but not illegal. The bill should
provide for hefty fines for employing illegals as those that are employing them
now are feeding from the public troft(stealing) while the public pays the costs
of medicaid, education, and prisons. Who says things are cheaper when you
account for the cost of supporting all the government services to the illegals.
Let Deportation Begin | 10:49 a.m. Dec. 10, 2007
How to end illegal alien immigration...
1. Fine and take business licenses away if a business knowingly hires illegals.
2. Deny social services/handouts to illegals. Right now we pay, they get it for free.
3. Immediately require that all students at our public schools must prove legal residence. If not, you cannot attend at the taxpayers expense because you are not legal.
4. Provide legal support to Utah communities wishing to pass ordinances against illegals.
5. Any illegal found committing a crime is returned to their native country and that country is fined and trade practices possibly revoked.
6. Any foreign country that allows, facilitates, or encourages illegal emigration is denied access to our markets in Utah.
7. Pass a state law mandating English to be the Official Language for Utah.
8. No State job will require Spanish, but rather English.
Time to get tough before it is too late.
1. Fine and take business licenses away if a business knowingly hires illegals.
2. Deny social services/handouts to illegals. Right now we pay, they get it for free.
3. Immediately require that all students at our public schools must prove legal residence. If not, you cannot attend at the taxpayers expense because you are not legal.
4. Provide legal support to Utah communities wishing to pass ordinances against illegals.
5. Any illegal found committing a crime is returned to their native country and that country is fined and trade practices possibly revoked.
6. Any foreign country that allows, facilitates, or encourages illegal emigration is denied access to our markets in Utah.
7. Pass a state law mandating English to be the Official Language for Utah.
8. No State job will require Spanish, but rather English.
Time to get tough before it is too late.
Nate | 10:59 a.m. Dec. 10, 2007
Wow! Love the straw man attacks. Just because I point out that some people
come here because they are destitute doesn't even remotely infer that I
think we should become destitute also. I mean, seriously, are people so devoid
of a rational response to economic disparity and so embarrassed by your lack of
understanding on how the real world works that you had to attack me instead of
addressing the idea itself?
Of course people are going to look at TV's if they have the means to. The ability to advance yourself in society is part of the American dream. I didn't move to Utah when I left the Marines specifically to buy a house. I came because Utah was offering me a job. I now make enough to afford a house, so I bought one. Just because you saw people looking at TV's doesn't mean they came here because of the TV (BTW, assuming Spanish speaking people are illegals is pretty bigoted).
As far as my solution, fix the VISA process! Until you make a reasonable way for people to come here legally to escape poverty, violence, and oppression; They will continue to come here illegally.
Of course people are going to look at TV's if they have the means to. The ability to advance yourself in society is part of the American dream. I didn't move to Utah when I left the Marines specifically to buy a house. I came because Utah was offering me a job. I now make enough to afford a house, so I bought one. Just because you saw people looking at TV's doesn't mean they came here because of the TV (BTW, assuming Spanish speaking people are illegals is pretty bigoted).
As far as my solution, fix the VISA process! Until you make a reasonable way for people to come here legally to escape poverty, violence, and oppression; They will continue to come here illegally.
Derek | 11:00 a.m. Dec. 10, 2007
These state-level proposals are a bad idea. Immigration is a federal
responsibility--that means states should not be solving the problem. States
can't truly solve the problem even if they wanted to. If the federal
government isn't doing their job, then lets focus our effort on changing
the federal government. Whether that means new federal leadership (both
Republican AND Democrat) or simply firing/hiring bureaucrats, we need to
convince the feds to sit down, figure it out, and fix it. That's their job,
so lets expect them to do it.
Further, several of the state-level proposals are immoral. This shouldn't be all that surprising I guess: when you have an entity without the structure or resources to solve a massive problem (i.e. the state) trying to bite off more than it can chew, the temptation is to use unduly coercive and immoral methods to meet your ends. For instance, treating some children as different than others based solely on their parents actions is an immoral public policy. It violates the very principles of liberty on which our country and state was founded. Children are also not a means to an end: we shouldn't use them to punish their parents.
Further, several of the state-level proposals are immoral. This shouldn't be all that surprising I guess: when you have an entity without the structure or resources to solve a massive problem (i.e. the state) trying to bite off more than it can chew, the temptation is to use unduly coercive and immoral methods to meet your ends. For instance, treating some children as different than others based solely on their parents actions is an immoral public policy. It violates the very principles of liberty on which our country and state was founded. Children are also not a means to an end: we shouldn't use them to punish their parents.
Stewart | 11:03 a.m. Dec. 10, 2007
It is about time that the Utah Legislature takes up this issue in an honest way.
Thank you Sen Hickman for leading the charge in the Senate, where passing
restrictions on illegals has been the most problematic. Of course the major
reason for dealing with this now is that by not dealing with it many long held
seats in the legislature would be at risk in November 2008. (eventually all
politics is local) Those that oppose the Oklahoma type laws can make a lot of
noise, but they have no real answers other than to do nothing and ignore the
problem (de facto amnesty) or wait for the Federal government to act. States
can't wait for the Feds to act because they have been complicit in creating
the problem in the first place. The Administration (Pres. Bush) and many in the
congress like it the way it is, because many of their high paying lobbyists want
the cheap labor to continue, so that wages will stay depressed. Employers think
they need to maintain an underclass of cheap available workers.
Nate | 11:29 a.m. Dec. 10, 2007
While I was stationed in Okinawa, Japan, every newspaper constantly reported
claims about the high crime rates caused by the American military members. Yet,
when you really looked at the numbers, we accounted for 5% of the population
(60K/1.2M), but only committed 1% of the crime. I take the time to say this in
response to the previous comment that "crime rates are higher with
illegals." Prove it.
And since I was asked for my plan, it's only fair to return the question. I'd love to here someone explain how they are going to deport 12 million people. Both logistically and financially. You don't even have to explain how you will handle the economy after you remove 6% of the work force when we are only at 3% unemployment (a number which includes students and housewives that want to be unemployed). Oh, and in case you didn't know, we are not the only country with sovereignty. So you have to cover what happens when we send a plane load to say, Cambodia, and Cambodia just sends them right back.
And since I was asked for my plan, it's only fair to return the question. I'd love to here someone explain how they are going to deport 12 million people. Both logistically and financially. You don't even have to explain how you will handle the economy after you remove 6% of the work force when we are only at 3% unemployment (a number which includes students and housewives that want to be unemployed). Oh, and in case you didn't know, we are not the only country with sovereignty. So you have to cover what happens when we send a plane load to say, Cambodia, and Cambodia just sends them right back.
HM | 11:36 a.m. Dec. 10, 2007
We NEED Law Inforcement to inforce the laws already on the books. I was working
one night at the local grocery store where I am employed, when we stopped a
Hispanic for shoplifting. Called West Valley Police, who arrived, and did their
thing. I was talking with the officer afterwards, and he informed me the
hispanic was an illegal. THe officer told me, when I inquired, that he did not
arrest the man because of all the paperwork that would be involved. The officer
told me, that he had more important things to do that evening than spend the
better part of the night filling out all the required forms for INS. No wonder
people want to take matters into their own hands, when law enforcement will not
do what they are paid for. My feeling is stop them at the border - sendem back
when we find them. Let them wait in line like the rest of the world to come to
the US. People in Africa, Asia, Europe all need to be on the same footing yet
Hispanics want to jump to the head just because they can walk here.
Anonymous | 11:37 a.m. Dec. 10, 2007
Thinking that people can be rounded up and deported is absurd.
So is building a Great Wall of China to keep people out.
The height of neurotic thinking is believing something that is simply not going to happen.
So is building a Great Wall of China to keep people out.
The height of neurotic thinking is believing something that is simply not going to happen.
Bill Hickman is a hypocrite. | 11:43 a.m. Dec. 10, 2007
Those of us who oppose the Oklahoma type laws are not suggesting we do nothing
instead we are opposed to the unconstitutional exercise of federal powers and
authority by the states. Just because some of our states don't agree with
the federal government, its decisions or its lack of decision doesn't give
them the right to exercise those powers in place of the federal government.
Over and over we hear how amnesty cities are wrong, I agree, yet some of those who say they are wrong want to do the exact same thing but on the opposite side of the spectrum. It's always okay for those who agree with them to assume federal powers but anyone who disagrees with them shouldn't be allowed to assume those powers. I find the hypocrisy of men like Bill Hickman interesting.
Over and over we hear how amnesty cities are wrong, I agree, yet some of those who say they are wrong want to do the exact same thing but on the opposite side of the spectrum. It's always okay for those who agree with them to assume federal powers but anyone who disagrees with them shouldn't be allowed to assume those powers. I find the hypocrisy of men like Bill Hickman interesting.
Juan | 11:46 a.m. Dec. 10, 2007
The U.S. border is like a Pressure/Temperature Relief valve on a hot water
heater. It prevents boiling over and allows the heater to continue as always.
With the federal government keeping the border valve open, the economic and social pressure on an utterly corrupt and oppressive Mexican government is relieved and things are never going to change for the people of Mexico, other than to get worse.
The 13 British colonies in 1775 were fed up with the London government's oppression, corruption, & economic restraints. They organized themselves and fought for their rights and freedoms. The American colonists did not run across the border to Mexico to seek a better life, they defended their families, their homes, their liberty and changed the world forever.
As long as the socialist/fascist empire in Mexico can relieve its failings and oppressive practices across its northern border and be continually infused with billions of U. S. dollars, the people of Mexico will never have the liberty and prosperity they deserve. They need to stop depending on the U.S., go home, take the U.S. Constitution with them, and change their world and our world for the better.
With the federal government keeping the border valve open, the economic and social pressure on an utterly corrupt and oppressive Mexican government is relieved and things are never going to change for the people of Mexico, other than to get worse.
The 13 British colonies in 1775 were fed up with the London government's oppression, corruption, & economic restraints. They organized themselves and fought for their rights and freedoms. The American colonists did not run across the border to Mexico to seek a better life, they defended their families, their homes, their liberty and changed the world forever.
As long as the socialist/fascist empire in Mexico can relieve its failings and oppressive practices across its northern border and be continually infused with billions of U. S. dollars, the people of Mexico will never have the liberty and prosperity they deserve. They need to stop depending on the U.S., go home, take the U.S. Constitution with them, and change their world and our world for the better.
TO Nate | 11:46 a.m. Dec. 10, 2007
How about we send them to the US Base in Cuba, cut a whole in the fence and let
castro deal with them.
Also, Why are we still in Okinawa? The war ended over half a century ago. Mybe we can use the military from Okinawa to patrol our own borders. As far as deporting 12 million people, I would think that many would leave on their own if we made it hard enough on them to stay. No place to rent, no job that they could get, no free lunch from the Government. Yes they would leave.
Also, Why are we still in Okinawa? The war ended over half a century ago. Mybe we can use the military from Okinawa to patrol our own borders. As far as deporting 12 million people, I would think that many would leave on their own if we made it hard enough on them to stay. No place to rent, no job that they could get, no free lunch from the Government. Yes they would leave.
Hickman is neurotic. | 11:54 a.m. Dec. 10, 2007
I agree with anonymous (11:37), it's quite absurd to believe that deporting
millions of people will be easy. The amount of resources we would have to
dedicate to it would overwhelm the government and our taxes would be increased
as a result of a new government program, in addition it would have a negative
impact upon our entire country.
The Utah legislature may be arrogant and think that it can pass legislation that will affect the entire country without having to go federal government but they are as wrong as any state that thinks it has the right to make laws that affect Utah without consulting with our federal representatives. Take California for example. What they are doing is as arrogant as what Hickman wants to do. Just because they have a big head and think they are right they don't get to make decisions that affect others with out consulting with us. So I agree with Anonymous and I think Hicman is neurotic.
The Utah legislature may be arrogant and think that it can pass legislation that will affect the entire country without having to go federal government but they are as wrong as any state that thinks it has the right to make laws that affect Utah without consulting with our federal representatives. Take California for example. What they are doing is as arrogant as what Hickman wants to do. Just because they have a big head and think they are right they don't get to make decisions that affect others with out consulting with us. So I agree with Anonymous and I think Hicman is neurotic.
Finally! | 11:55 a.m. Dec. 10, 2007
Great! We've got something hot-hot-hot to blog/scream/vent/spew about
besides vouchers, Mitt Romney, and whether Christians are Mormons or not.
There are 18 different sides to the immigration debate, not just two. We can really mix it up now! Readership and writership of this newspaper is really gonna spiral outasight!
There are 18 different sides to the immigration debate, not just two. We can really mix it up now! Readership and writership of this newspaper is really gonna spiral outasight!
rick | 11:56 a.m. Dec. 10, 2007
Do we really want these individuals in our country ?
They tell us that they come here for a better life.
Let's see, first off they are usually males who leave their families home in Mexico. They all crowd into some house, I have one down the street. they destroy the place just pure wear and tear pure numbers. Then they steal our identities so that they can have a social security # to work. or course it's our mess to clean up. Then they chase after our ladies, live with them of coarse. have children which our generous nation grants citizenship to. We foot the bill for education heaven knows that our classrooms are already too large of course our kids suffer because the kids don't speak english the teachers have to slow down do remedial stuff. Refuse to learn english.Social services, health care a huge problem, they use our E.R. like a doctors office we have to wait. Drugs, gangs they add a new wonderful dimention to our society. average 6th grade education, a country where few marry. I think that they bring a rauchy aura to our country.
They tell us that they come here for a better life.
Let's see, first off they are usually males who leave their families home in Mexico. They all crowd into some house, I have one down the street. they destroy the place just pure wear and tear pure numbers. Then they steal our identities so that they can have a social security # to work. or course it's our mess to clean up. Then they chase after our ladies, live with them of coarse. have children which our generous nation grants citizenship to. We foot the bill for education heaven knows that our classrooms are already too large of course our kids suffer because the kids don't speak english the teachers have to slow down do remedial stuff. Refuse to learn english.Social services, health care a huge problem, they use our E.R. like a doctors office we have to wait. Drugs, gangs they add a new wonderful dimention to our society. average 6th grade education, a country where few marry. I think that they bring a rauchy aura to our country.
TO Nate is nuts. | 12:03 p.m. Dec. 10, 2007
Sending troops to the southern border will cause a subsequent buildup of troops
on the Mexican side of the border. No sovereign nation is going to let any
nation station any amount of troops on its borders without responding to that
action by sending armed troops to protect their border. We must not forget that
we have invaded Mexico as late as 1917 and the military advisors of the Mexican
government will take that invasion and the preemptive attack on Iraq into
consideration if U.S. troops starting showing up on the Mexican border. Worst,
something is likely to happen as a result of this that could escalate into a
war. A Mexican (or American) soldier may over-react and shoot a soldier from the
opposite side of the border which could result in a breakdown of relations
between the two countries and our diplomatic relations being cut off then war
with Mexico would be inevitable.
What would we do if Mexico or Canada started to send troops to the Canadian/U.S. or Mexican/U.S. borders? I know we would perceive that as a threat to our national security. It's nuts to think that placing our troops on the border is a good idea.
What would we do if Mexico or Canada started to send troops to the Canadian/U.S. or Mexican/U.S. borders? I know we would perceive that as a threat to our national security. It's nuts to think that placing our troops on the border is a good idea.
Juan is wrong. | 12:12 p.m. Dec. 10, 2007
In response to Juan. The terms socialist and fascist are contradictory. A
socialist government can't be fascist and a fascist government can't
be socialist.
For example, Wikipedia states "Mussolini defined fascism as being a right-wing collectivistic ideology in opposition to socialism, liberalism, democracy and individualism." Socialism on the other hand is a far-left ideology which is opposed to fascism. So my suggestion to Juan is for him to get a better education because his clear lack of knowledge is an indictment.
For example, Wikipedia states "Mussolini defined fascism as being a right-wing collectivistic ideology in opposition to socialism, liberalism, democracy and individualism." Socialism on the other hand is a far-left ideology which is opposed to fascism. So my suggestion to Juan is for him to get a better education because his clear lack of knowledge is an indictment.
Anonymous | 12:42 p.m. Dec. 10, 2007
I live in a town where hispanics are welcome. As in any culture you are always
going to have a few rascals that must be dealt with. But generally speaking, the
hispanics (legal or otherwise) mind their own business, are extremely polite and
hard-working people who spend like everyone else and are quite religious.
To my way of thinking, I have died and gone to heaven.
To my way of thinking, I have died and gone to heaven.
Bobby | 12:56 p.m. Dec. 10, 2007
Vote for Chris Cannon--if you want Utah to totally collapse into chaos. Will
Americans never learn that they are litterally falling into the trap the elites
in this nation have set for them? At least try to resist if you care at all. In
North Carolina, MS-13 gangs have just shot two people to death in a resturant.
Don't expect people like Cannon to care. Only money matters to his type.
Bobby | 1:05 p.m. Dec. 10, 2007
One final comment. It some of you citizens of Utah are still wondering about the
effects of massive illegal immigration, I have a simple method that can help you
to make up your minds. STUDY CALIFORNIA. It is broke. It is a disaster. Citizens
of California are only used as wage slaves to help pay for the costs of the
bottomless pit that is illegal immigration. Don't say noone warned you.
Good luck. There is no point in going on, for as the saying goes, a word to the
WISE, is sufficient.
American First | 1:26 p.m. Dec. 10, 2007
Can we just try deporting them all!
If we get 50 percent of the illegal immigrants .... We�ll get rid of at least 30 percent of the crime.
Let�s try it and see what happens. I know for a fact that the politicians will always say �The world will end� but it doesn�t. So let�s deport them all, and in three years do an analysis. We�ll have real data.
Plus one question, how did America do so well without them? Seems America was better before the invasion of illegal immigrants then now.
If we get 50 percent of the illegal immigrants .... We�ll get rid of at least 30 percent of the crime.
Let�s try it and see what happens. I know for a fact that the politicians will always say �The world will end� but it doesn�t. So let�s deport them all, and in three years do an analysis. We�ll have real data.
Plus one question, how did America do so well without them? Seems America was better before the invasion of illegal immigrants then now.
SKETCH | 1:33 p.m. Dec. 10, 2007
I don't think those who want to rid this country of illegal immigrants are
racists, we are all sick of supporting them financially with free healthcare,
education, we are all sick of taxes going up each year while Pedro doesn't
pay a dime. And most of all it's an absolute lack of respect these illegal
immigrants all share for those here legally. If they want to speed up the
process to becoming a legal citizen how about serving in our military for a few
years first. Atleast then they would learn what it means to be an American and
would probably gain some respect for this country and its LEGAL citizens.
Wilkey | 1:41 p.m. Dec. 10, 2007
"We need workers here in Utah."
We HAVE workers. We had workers even before the illegal invasion. All these jobs were once done by legal Americans.
"You can't hold an employer accountable if he or she doesn't have the tools to verify the status of a person prior to hiring."
Those tools, in fact, are already available. The feds already have just such a system. It works.
"We aren't going to kick out every single illegal in the country."
We don't have to. We just have to make it difficult for them to live and work here and millions of them will go home on their own. No job, no driver's license, no car registration, no schools (free daycare!) for your kids? They'll have to go home.
"What about the child that's brought here by his parents and hasn't done anything wrong? Is he the same as an illegal thief? "
No - the "illegal thief" goes to jail. The kids just get sent back to their home country.
"I will also enjoy watching the ensuing crash of the Utah economy."
Oklahoma's economy hasn't crashed. Colorado's economy hasn't crashed, either.
We HAVE workers. We had workers even before the illegal invasion. All these jobs were once done by legal Americans.
"You can't hold an employer accountable if he or she doesn't have the tools to verify the status of a person prior to hiring."
Those tools, in fact, are already available. The feds already have just such a system. It works.
"We aren't going to kick out every single illegal in the country."
We don't have to. We just have to make it difficult for them to live and work here and millions of them will go home on their own. No job, no driver's license, no car registration, no schools (free daycare!) for your kids? They'll have to go home.
"What about the child that's brought here by his parents and hasn't done anything wrong? Is he the same as an illegal thief? "
No - the "illegal thief" goes to jail. The kids just get sent back to their home country.
"I will also enjoy watching the ensuing crash of the Utah economy."
Oklahoma's economy hasn't crashed. Colorado's economy hasn't crashed, either.
Anonymous | 1:53 p.m. Dec. 10, 2007
"we must remember that this great nation was built upon foreigners and
immigrants.."
What complete rubbish! At NO point in this nation's history have foreigners been a majority, or anywhere near a majority of the population, save the times of earliest settlement. At no point in the last 200 years have the foreign-born made up more than 14% of the population. This country was not built by "immigrants;" it was built by people - people who happen to be our ancestors. Even the ones who *were* immigrants wouldn't say they were building it for "immigrants." They'd say they were building it for their posterity.
"But good luck in seeing the economy implode for the 10 or 20 years it would take to recover."
The economy won't implode. It will adapt. When Congress ended the Bracero program in the late 60s all the tomato farmers swore they'd go out of business and the priceof tomatoes would soar. What really happened? They invested in harvesting technology and the price of tomatoes fell.
The industries illegal immigrants dominate are the least central to the economy and easiest to replace with technology. COntinued...
What complete rubbish! At NO point in this nation's history have foreigners been a majority, or anywhere near a majority of the population, save the times of earliest settlement. At no point in the last 200 years have the foreign-born made up more than 14% of the population. This country was not built by "immigrants;" it was built by people - people who happen to be our ancestors. Even the ones who *were* immigrants wouldn't say they were building it for "immigrants." They'd say they were building it for their posterity.
"But good luck in seeing the economy implode for the 10 or 20 years it would take to recover."
The economy won't implode. It will adapt. When Congress ended the Bracero program in the late 60s all the tomato farmers swore they'd go out of business and the priceof tomatoes would soar. What really happened? They invested in harvesting technology and the price of tomatoes fell.
The industries illegal immigrants dominate are the least central to the economy and easiest to replace with technology. COntinued...
Juan | 1:55 p.m. Dec. 10, 2007
About "Juan is wrong" above.
Mussolini was a deceiver. Hardly one whom I would be quoting for credible info.
Socialism is a broad term for government control or outright ownership of property, the means of production & distribution of goods. The rights of the individual must be sacrificed for the collective "rights" of the state. In reality the "state" is a handful of tyrants.
Communism is the virulent form of socialism brought about by a violent revolution in which the state owns all property and means of production.
Fascism is socialism that allows the ownership of private property and the means of production, but dictates how it must be used for the state.
Fabian Socialism is socialism brought about by slowing taking away the citizen's rights and property, as in the U.S.
Nazi is a abbreviation of NAtional-SoZIalist, the WWII German form of fascist socialism that emphasized racial purity and state control.
And just what is the Mexican "La Raza"? "The Race". Tell me Mexico is not full of racist socialist/fascists?! I rest my case. Honorable Mexicans need to go back, take their nation back, and restore their Republic.
Mussolini was a deceiver. Hardly one whom I would be quoting for credible info.
Socialism is a broad term for government control or outright ownership of property, the means of production & distribution of goods. The rights of the individual must be sacrificed for the collective "rights" of the state. In reality the "state" is a handful of tyrants.
Communism is the virulent form of socialism brought about by a violent revolution in which the state owns all property and means of production.
Fascism is socialism that allows the ownership of private property and the means of production, but dictates how it must be used for the state.
Fabian Socialism is socialism brought about by slowing taking away the citizen's rights and property, as in the U.S.
Nazi is a abbreviation of NAtional-SoZIalist, the WWII German form of fascist socialism that emphasized racial purity and state control.
And just what is the Mexican "La Raza"? "The Race". Tell me Mexico is not full of racist socialist/fascists?! I rest my case. Honorable Mexicans need to go back, take their nation back, and restore their Republic.
Anonymous | 1:59 p.m. Dec. 10, 2007
Re: "America First" 1:26 -
I think the country would be better served focusing on local home-grown crime first before implementing gestapo-like tactics to round up illegal hispanics.
As the economy continues to go south (don't kid yourself - it's going to get real rough) and the population continues to explode with more corruption in high places than ever before - I'm going to practice being the friendliest, most Christian and tolerant human being on the planet.
But something's got to be done about the nasty, Limbaugh neocons first.
I think the country would be better served focusing on local home-grown crime first before implementing gestapo-like tactics to round up illegal hispanics.
As the economy continues to go south (don't kid yourself - it's going to get real rough) and the population continues to explode with more corruption in high places than ever before - I'm going to practice being the friendliest, most Christian and tolerant human being on the planet.
But something's got to be done about the nasty, Limbaugh neocons first.
MTM | 1:59 p.m. Dec. 10, 2007
We need something and we need it quick. Cities that have made themselves
"safe havens" need to lose all federal $. We do need to simplify the
immigration process but just allowing anyone is wrong. And those who think we
need workers are wrong. We eliminate welfare and more people will need jobs -
they'll do what they need to get themselves qualified for the work
available.
Anonymous | 2:01 p.m. Dec. 10, 2007
Continued from above...
It's important to remember that in many industries filled by immigrants the work only needs to be done BECAUSE OF immigrants. 70% of our population growth is from immigration. Take away that population growth and we don't need as many new roads, or new homes, or new schools.
This is important because these segments of the economy aren't where the US needs to grow or to focus. Where we really need to grow is in industries that generate exports, so that we can reduce our trade deficit, our budget deficit, and our massive amounts of consumer debt. The immigration surge has gone hand-in-hand with those 3 deficits soaring.
And to imply that large-scale immigration makes life better, less costly, or whatever? Ha! Tell that to the folks fleeing California in droves. The first thing I hear from everyone of them is "It's so expensive there." The last time I was in LA I passed an interstate traffic jam that went on for 10 solid miles.
27% of California's residents are FIRST generation immigrants.
It's important to remember that in many industries filled by immigrants the work only needs to be done BECAUSE OF immigrants. 70% of our population growth is from immigration. Take away that population growth and we don't need as many new roads, or new homes, or new schools.
This is important because these segments of the economy aren't where the US needs to grow or to focus. Where we really need to grow is in industries that generate exports, so that we can reduce our trade deficit, our budget deficit, and our massive amounts of consumer debt. The immigration surge has gone hand-in-hand with those 3 deficits soaring.
And to imply that large-scale immigration makes life better, less costly, or whatever? Ha! Tell that to the folks fleeing California in droves. The first thing I hear from everyone of them is "It's so expensive there." The last time I was in LA I passed an interstate traffic jam that went on for 10 solid miles.
27% of California's residents are FIRST generation immigrants.
Immigrant12313 | 2:02 p.m. Dec. 10, 2007
This isn't a political platform, these are human beings and Immigrants do
pay taxes! a great portion of the property taxes and sale taxes that EVERYBODY
pays are going to education (YES that includes flat screen TV's)
I say, if you have an immediate family member (Father, Mother, or Kids)that is a citizen or legal resident and a clean criminal record you can stay, I cannot picture being away from my kids 5 years! Because that is what it takes to bring your relatives in the country. Many say, My grandparents or parents came in 1910 or so and they came legally! Lets make the same requirements back then todays and we wouldn't be having this discussion today! I am an immigrant, I had to wait years for my family to be united so I do not blame immigrants for coming here illegally. There are no legal channels and the "current law" does not meet the demands of our society. I do not want anybody to go through the same thing I did, so please, all of you that use the phrase " the end of the line " stop using it if you have never been there!
I say, if you have an immediate family member (Father, Mother, or Kids)that is a citizen or legal resident and a clean criminal record you can stay, I cannot picture being away from my kids 5 years! Because that is what it takes to bring your relatives in the country. Many say, My grandparents or parents came in 1910 or so and they came legally! Lets make the same requirements back then todays and we wouldn't be having this discussion today! I am an immigrant, I had to wait years for my family to be united so I do not blame immigrants for coming here illegally. There are no legal channels and the "current law" does not meet the demands of our society. I do not want anybody to go through the same thing I did, so please, all of you that use the phrase " the end of the line " stop using it if you have never been there!
Illegals on the Cheap | 2:10 p.m. Dec. 10, 2007
We have illegal aliens because companies refuse to pay Americans a living wage.
Bush says they are jobs we do not want to do..rubbish...just not for pennies on
the dollar while company greed remains unbriddled. So, they hire illegals for a
lot less, then we pay for their medical bills, education, and to incarcerate the
gang members. Now, the way I see it, the states MUST implement the 10th
Amendment to the Constitution and take action. As a taxpaying U.S. citizen I
require my state and the legislature to act NOW.
I sympathize with the illegals, but go back and fix your own country. It's called democracy and fighting for change. America cannot take anyone who wants to come. I'm all in favor of a guest worker card for 6 months, but to get one, you can't be a criminal, disease free, and will stay as a guest..Not for years.
America is for Americans. Immigration built our country, but those immigrants waited in line, and were systematically processed, they didn't sneak in and our government then wouldn't allow it.
Bush is at fault along with McCain, Hatch and the tenured crew. They are on borrowed time.
I sympathize with the illegals, but go back and fix your own country. It's called democracy and fighting for change. America cannot take anyone who wants to come. I'm all in favor of a guest worker card for 6 months, but to get one, you can't be a criminal, disease free, and will stay as a guest..Not for years.
America is for Americans. Immigration built our country, but those immigrants waited in line, and were systematically processed, they didn't sneak in and our government then wouldn't allow it.
Bush is at fault along with McCain, Hatch and the tenured crew. They are on borrowed time.
Wilkey | 2:37 p.m. Dec. 10, 2007
"I had to wait years for my family to be united so I do not blame
immigrants for coming here illegally."
If you can't bear to part from your family, then don't come here. Stay where you are - Please.
"Immigrants do pay taxes! a great portion of the property taxes and sale taxes that EVERYBODY pays are going to education"
First, Utah education is mostly funded by income taxes. Many illegals don't pay that at all. Those who do pay very little.
Second, I've been in these immigrant neighborhoods and I can assure you that, person-for-person, illegal immigrants pay far less in property taxes than the average Utahn. One, because they live in cheap housing to begin with. Two, because they often shack up multiple families to a house - not occasionally, but all the time. Drive through Rose Park or Glendale or Southwest Provo at night and see for yourself how many cars they have to park on the street, because they don't have room in their driveways for all of them.
If you can't bear to part from your family, then don't come here. Stay where you are - Please.
"Immigrants do pay taxes! a great portion of the property taxes and sale taxes that EVERYBODY pays are going to education"
First, Utah education is mostly funded by income taxes. Many illegals don't pay that at all. Those who do pay very little.
Second, I've been in these immigrant neighborhoods and I can assure you that, person-for-person, illegal immigrants pay far less in property taxes than the average Utahn. One, because they live in cheap housing to begin with. Two, because they often shack up multiple families to a house - not occasionally, but all the time. Drive through Rose Park or Glendale or Southwest Provo at night and see for yourself how many cars they have to park on the street, because they don't have room in their driveways for all of them.
Anonymous | 2:59 p.m. Dec. 10, 2007
At this point, I'm not so sure anything can be fixed. As the economy tanks,
the powers that be (do you know any that are not well-off) will be in their
gated communities safe and secure while society continues to deteriorate. I
think they too know the future looks grim at best. Crime will continue to
escalate (people will do illegal things to feed their children and
themselves)and their idea of biting the bullet is to sell a yacht or two.
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If they won't work then why are the same groups advocating for open borders and amnesty - La Raza ("The Race"), the ACLU, the Chamber of Commerce - fighting them tooth and nail?
Truth is, they know they'll work. They've been proven to work.
But if that's not enough, how about we just try them? Give it 2-3 years, and then let's compare results.