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Theology: LDS god is in harmony with the Bible
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Joe | 5:26 p.m. Dec. 8, 2007
Correct me if I'm wrong here. The Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are
three separate and distinct intellects with free agency and are capabale of
making individual decisions on their own. According to basic theology they
happen to be in perfect agreement in what their decisions and courses of action
are to be for a particular matter...therefore one in mind and purpose. Because
they each have the capacity to think for themselves they are three Gods not one.
If they cannot think for themselves they don't really have an existence
other than to be part of one mind...a manifestation of one mind and being in
three different roles (modulism not the trinity). Sounds to me like any way you
look at it there are actually three gods ...just act as one. Also, Jesus was
resurrected with a phyisical body...If Jesus is God, God has a body of flesh and
bone (no blood...rather spirit within the flesh...yes God is a spirit AND
body...not only spirit). Does Jesus take his body off when he's not around
us and put in on when he is...death is the separation of the spirit from the
body. God is not dead. LDS have it right.
Zach | 5:29 p.m. Dec. 8, 2007
I just love this thread, traditional Christians alternating between outrage that
someone is trying to tell them what they believe and telling the poor mormons
what they believe. It must be confusing to keep track of that muddle of
feelings.
One question I do have for the many who say Card has mischaracterized creedal Christianity, I haven't see anyone explain where he went wrong? I have heard the water analogy (cup of water can be boiled to steam or frozen to ice) and I do not see any substantive difference between that and the line analogy used here, but I would like to understand if anyone is willing to take the time to explain.
One question I do have for the many who say Card has mischaracterized creedal Christianity, I haven't see anyone explain where he went wrong? I have heard the water analogy (cup of water can be boiled to steam or frozen to ice) and I do not see any substantive difference between that and the line analogy used here, but I would like to understand if anyone is willing to take the time to explain.
Comments continue below
Observer | 5:51 p.m. Dec. 8, 2007
Mr. Card omits, even in passing, discussing the LDS temple endownments that have
nothing at all do to with biblical Christanity. Their ascribed origins to the
Temple of Solomon are groundless, and even the Masons admit that now.
Note, I understand the sensibilities about discussing the temple endownments outside the temple so I will go no further. However, my observations and opinion stand.
Note, I understand the sensibilities about discussing the temple endownments outside the temple so I will go no further. However, my observations and opinion stand.
WestBerkeleyFlats | 6:33 p.m. Dec. 8, 2007
This really was a dreadful article from Card, managing to be both patronizing
and inaccurate in its representation of the historical development of
traditional Christianity. (And as an aside, Card might want to begin with an
awareness that neither traditional Christianity nor Mormonism have historically
accurate views of the message of Jesus of Nazareth, which most scholars conclude
mphasized an imminent eschatology consistent with an apocalyptic worldview.)
And I find it rather amusing to see Mormons backpedal from traditional Mormon
theology such as eternal progression to godhood in response to the dismissive
reaction to them from mainstream Christians.
LaMar | 7:34 p.m. Dec. 8, 2007
Good article. Nothing will be settled here. Like any parable it is not intended
to be perfect in all doctrine, but to make a particlar point. Let he that has
ears....
I do find it interesting that so many who are not LDS go to great effort to tell others what we believe, but then say that if you want to know what a "True Christian" believes that you must ask directly from the source because any other source is not reliable. Hmmm...
I do find it interesting that so many who are not LDS go to great effort to tell others what we believe, but then say that if you want to know what a "True Christian" believes that you must ask directly from the source because any other source is not reliable. Hmmm...
Phouchg | 8:24 p.m. Dec. 8, 2007
What OSC forgets is that the trinity can exist as one in three. Water can take
the form of Ice, Liquid and Vapor. All different forms, but the same substance.
Such it is with the trinity. Three different forms, but one substance.
This is where the LDS just don't get it.
This is where the LDS just don't get it.
S.D. LDS | 10:22 p.m. Dec. 8, 2007
Yes, Phouchg, water can take all three forms but never can any one molecule be
all three phases at once. And that is where you aren't getting it.
huh? | 11:18 p.m. Dec. 8, 2007
Pyrrho, I'm sorry but I honestly have no idea what you're talking
about!
I left icame back... | 11:24 p.m. Dec. 8, 2007
I left 6 hours ago...Still arguing the water/Trinity analogy?....Face it if you
need a non biblical anology like that to explain the Trinity...No wonder God
told Joseph Smith the creeds were an abomination.
The simplicity of believing God when he revealed that man was created in His image and likeness, and that man is his offspring...So simple a child can understand it...How refreshing!
The simplicity of believing God when he revealed that man was created in His image and likeness, and that man is his offspring...So simple a child can understand it...How refreshing!
just me | 12:04 a.m. Dec. 9, 2007
In Romans where Paul said we would be joint heirs with God. Meaning?
hazel Wilson Cordon | 6:45 a.m. Dec. 9, 2007
I was at a Mormon Christmas Party Friday and I could no see any cult members.
They they looked like normal people to me..honring the birth of Jesus Christ
Vote for Mitt. He sure is my man
Vote for Mitt. He sure is my man
Kathy Riordan | 7:11 a.m. Dec. 9, 2007
Nothing in this statement conflicts with LDS belief or scripture:
We believe in:
*one God, the Father Almighty:
***creator of heaven and earth, of all things seen and unseen
*one Lord, Jesus Christ
***the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father
***God from God, Light from Light, True God from True God
***begotten, not made, one in being with the Father
***through Him all things were made
***for our salvation came down from heaven
***by the power of the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary and became man
***crucified under Pontius Pilate for our sake
***suffered, died and was buried
***rose again on the third day
***ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father
***will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead
***His kingdom will have no end
*the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life
***proceeds from the Father and the Son
***through the Father and Son is worshipped and glorified
***has spoken through the prophets
*one holy, catholic (meaning universal) and apostolic church
*one baptism for the forgiveness of sins
*the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come
We believe in:
*one God, the Father Almighty:
***creator of heaven and earth, of all things seen and unseen
*one Lord, Jesus Christ
***the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father
***God from God, Light from Light, True God from True God
***begotten, not made, one in being with the Father
***through Him all things were made
***for our salvation came down from heaven
***by the power of the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary and became man
***crucified under Pontius Pilate for our sake
***suffered, died and was buried
***rose again on the third day
***ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father
***will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead
***His kingdom will have no end
*the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life
***proceeds from the Father and the Son
***through the Father and Son is worshipped and glorified
***has spoken through the prophets
*one holy, catholic (meaning universal) and apostolic church
*one baptism for the forgiveness of sins
*the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come
We Mormons need to chill a bit | 8:35 a.m. Dec. 9, 2007
Certain evangelical types seem to have struck a nerve and they know it. They
challenge us that we are not "Christian". It used to bother the heck
out of me, then I stopped caring about what "others" say. Quite
frankly, I now don't give a flying fig. I know what I believe - and I
certainly don't need the validation of a radical evangelical to feel
whole.
There is plenty of bad behavior on both sides of the issue. Obviously "they" are wrong to tell us what we believe and "we" are wrong to fight back. After all, the great master in whom we profess to follow counseled us to "turn the other cheek".
There is plenty of bad behavior on both sides of the issue. Obviously "they" are wrong to tell us what we believe and "we" are wrong to fight back. After all, the great master in whom we profess to follow counseled us to "turn the other cheek".
Reality-objective lived experien | 9:14 a.m. Dec. 9, 2007
Utah seems to be run by the Mormons. I've heard of non-Mormons being
grossly discriminated against due to their faith. This makes sense as it is
common practice for Mormons to list their missions on their resumes. The
Mormons who practice what is preached, in my view, are in the minority.
Unfortunately, I view it as a controlling religion that suppresses individual
freedom. However, Jon Huntsman is simply one of the most decent Mormons
I've ever witnessed. I wish others could follow in his footsteps..both
Mormons and non. The Mormons need to recognize that they do not have the
monopoly on God, and to separate their faith from the public domain. That is
all I wanted to say on this.
Orson Adams | 10:41 a.m. Dec. 9, 2007
Just because people believe an issue it doesn't make it true. No one in
this life knows the true nature of God. Truth is different than BELIEF.
laguna | 12:19 p.m. Dec. 9, 2007
Nice re-write of LDS teachings that were taught by every prophet. It is
convenient to change doctrine a bit to be more acceptable by the majority.
I expect more to come.
I expect more to come.
Paul Gibbs | 12:35 p.m. Dec. 9, 2007
If I find out he's in favor of pulling out of Iraq, I may just write-in
"Orson Scott Card" on my ballot now . . .
They do that trick... | 2:06 p.m. Dec. 9, 2007
laguna | 12:19 p.m. Dec. 9, 2007
"Nice re-write of LDS teachings that were taught by every prophet. It is convenient to change doctrine a bit to be more acceptable by the majority.
I expect more to come."
Yeah that's why in a few years many other churches will also have gay marraiges, women and gay clergy.
Changes...It's already happening in the more liberal, because a lot of the professors of those religions don't really believe any more...It's a prestigious job and a cash cow for them that's all...Not a religion for them.
I expect more to come.
"Nice re-write of LDS teachings that were taught by every prophet. It is convenient to change doctrine a bit to be more acceptable by the majority.
I expect more to come."
Yeah that's why in a few years many other churches will also have gay marraiges, women and gay clergy.
Changes...It's already happening in the more liberal, because a lot of the professors of those religions don't really believe any more...It's a prestigious job and a cash cow for them that's all...Not a religion for them.
I expect more to come.
Anonymous | 2:31 p.m. Dec. 9, 2007
Reality-objective lived experien | 9:14 a.m. Dec. 9, 2007
You should read what you're going to post first...
It's contradictory to say in one sentence most mormons are hypocrites because they don't practice what they preach....And then in a later sentence they need to separate their faith from the publice domain?
...The Mormons that don't practice what they preach are the problem in both sectors of life!
But then after all...Nobody practiced their religion perfectly except for Jesus.
LDS misstions on resumes?...Employers want to know what you've done with your time...Work and otherwise. I'm sure there are non-lds people that list other types of volunteer experiences.
Old wives tale about the church being controlling...LDS are still the majority in most of the state...So suprise we run, we get elected.
Generally the south is run by the baptists...East by the catholics, etc.
You should read what you're going to post first...
It's contradictory to say in one sentence most mormons are hypocrites because they don't practice what they preach....And then in a later sentence they need to separate their faith from the publice domain?
...The Mormons that don't practice what they preach are the problem in both sectors of life!
But then after all...Nobody practiced their religion perfectly except for Jesus.
LDS misstions on resumes?...Employers want to know what you've done with your time...Work and otherwise. I'm sure there are non-lds people that list other types of volunteer experiences.
Old wives tale about the church being controlling...LDS are still the majority in most of the state...So suprise we run, we get elected.
Generally the south is run by the baptists...East by the catholics, etc.
Ms. S. | 3:54 p.m. Dec. 9, 2007
Kathy, thank you for posting excerpts from the Nicene Creed.
Reality - I have a SIL who lives in southern WY (lots of Mormons there). She's not too positive about their church (she says they're clique-ish), but she's never said they discriminate in employment. It's not even legal to ask an applicant what his/her religion is, is it?
FWIW, all the Mormons I've ever met have been kind, decent, honest, hard-working people. They make excellent neighbors. My sons have Mormon friends. One of their Mormon friends' mother even told me she went to Catholic school. We respect each other's faith, and our differences. I live in California. I imagine it's not too much different from Utah - just more Mormons there.
I wish everyone peace this Advent Season.
Reality - I have a SIL who lives in southern WY (lots of Mormons there). She's not too positive about their church (she says they're clique-ish), but she's never said they discriminate in employment. It's not even legal to ask an applicant what his/her religion is, is it?
FWIW, all the Mormons I've ever met have been kind, decent, honest, hard-working people. They make excellent neighbors. My sons have Mormon friends. One of their Mormon friends' mother even told me she went to Catholic school. We respect each other's faith, and our differences. I live in California. I imagine it's not too much different from Utah - just more Mormons there.
I wish everyone peace this Advent Season.
To: "They do the trick" | 4:31 p.m. Dec. 9, 2007
Yeah, I agree totally. And I also think this is an indication that
religions' teachings are just made up by man. I think "keeping up
with the times" is great, however, and I want this to happen and it will
continue to.
Comet | 6:43 p.m. Dec. 9, 2007
I'd like to see the same kind of rationalizing applied to Mormon
conceptions of the Atonement. The language creedal Christianity applies to the
trinity is the same kind of mystificatory language Mormons apply to ideas like
the Atonement. Mystifications. Although I thought Card's geometry analogy
was eloquent, if he's trying to show how much more horse sense the LDS view
of the trinity makes then the mystified creedal trinity then it's just a
matter of time before someone hauls out some lds doctrine that's equally
mystified.
Anonymous | 7:43 p.m. Dec. 9, 2007
The whole "Fall of Man" concept was designed by the elititsts (those
who believe they have some sort of birthright) to control the commoners with
guilt and fear.
But thank God people are losing this superstitious fear.
But thank God people are losing this superstitious fear.
Sterling | 8:17 p.m. Dec. 9, 2007
I really do not like Plato's ideas of an "ideal" idea. It not
only messed up Christ's teachings, in also put the world in the dark ages
with its anti science in the real world ideas. Basically scientific experiments
in a "real" tarnished imperfect world don't lead to any ultimate
truth.
It stopped science as we know it today for over 1000 years.
Plato�s �ideal� ideas are nonsense. The ideas in our head are there to help us sort out a very complex world. Ideas are definitely not a world unto itself. Even today we value people who "think" over people who do things with real objects. A white collar worker is better than blue collar worker, a theoretical physicists (Einstein) is better then a experimental physicists (Rutherford, ever heard of him?)
One thing is for sure Plato�s ideas plus Jesus Christ�s teachings do not equal Jesus Christ�s teachings. Mormons have that right.
It stopped science as we know it today for over 1000 years.
Plato�s �ideal� ideas are nonsense. The ideas in our head are there to help us sort out a very complex world. Ideas are definitely not a world unto itself. Even today we value people who "think" over people who do things with real objects. A white collar worker is better than blue collar worker, a theoretical physicists (Einstein) is better then a experimental physicists (Rutherford, ever heard of him?)
One thing is for sure Plato�s ideas plus Jesus Christ�s teachings do not equal Jesus Christ�s teachings. Mormons have that right.
Another point | 9:18 p.m. Dec. 9, 2007
Jesus Christ is the Father. Sometimes we Mormons forget that when Christ
completed the Atonement, he quite literally became our Father too. The Book of
Mormon is clear on this. He is not the Father, as in our "Father in
Heaven", but he is still our Father in that he saved us from damnation.
The God of the Old Testament, New Testament, Book of Mormon also teaches us that
this "Father" is Jehovah, Jesus Christ, the Redeemer. Thus, we should
stop referring to him as simply our "older brother." He is more than
that.
We also need to relax a little bit, and admire our Non-LDS evangelical friends who do a great job in focusing on Jesus Christ. We could learn a lot from them.
Still, as President Hinckley so beautifully said...Joseph Smith learned more about the Godhead that spring morning in 1820, than any of the scholars had the previous 1800 years!
Finally, to understand more about the nature of God, one must frequently attend the Temple and study/compare the scriptures. Then more truths about the Nature of God (The Nature of the Father, Son AND Holy Ghost) are made known to us.
Kathy, I appreciate your comments.
We also need to relax a little bit, and admire our Non-LDS evangelical friends who do a great job in focusing on Jesus Christ. We could learn a lot from them.
Still, as President Hinckley so beautifully said...Joseph Smith learned more about the Godhead that spring morning in 1820, than any of the scholars had the previous 1800 years!
Finally, to understand more about the nature of God, one must frequently attend the Temple and study/compare the scriptures. Then more truths about the Nature of God (The Nature of the Father, Son AND Holy Ghost) are made known to us.
Kathy, I appreciate your comments.
Sharon | 9:25 p.m. Dec. 9, 2007
Acts 7:55 explained:
"I see," said Stephen, "the heavens opened." Such then is the position of the true believer-heavenly upon the earth-in presence of the world that rejected Christ, the murderous world; the believer, alive in death, sees by the power of the Holy Ghost into heaven, and the Son of man at the right hand of God. Stephen does not say "Jesus." The Spirit characterises Him as the Son of man! Precious testimony to man! Nor is it to the glory of God that he testifies (this was natural to heaven) but to the Son of man in the glory, heaven being open to him, and then looks to Him as the Lord Jesus, to receive his spirit, the first example and full testimony of the state of the believer's soul after death with Christ glorified.
"I see," said Stephen, "the heavens opened." Such then is the position of the true believer-heavenly upon the earth-in presence of the world that rejected Christ, the murderous world; the believer, alive in death, sees by the power of the Holy Ghost into heaven, and the Son of man at the right hand of God. Stephen does not say "Jesus." The Spirit characterises Him as the Son of man! Precious testimony to man! Nor is it to the glory of God that he testifies (this was natural to heaven) but to the Son of man in the glory, heaven being open to him, and then looks to Him as the Lord Jesus, to receive his spirit, the first example and full testimony of the state of the believer's soul after death with Christ glorified.
Into the Fray..... | 12:46 a.m. Dec. 10, 2007
As great as Cards explanation was, it left wanting; What do TC's believe
regarding the basic questions of religion?
* What is the purpose of the Earth?
* What is the purpose of mankind, that Jesus Christ should act as a redeemer?
* Why redemption at all when God loves us already "as is."
* Should we live for eternity in heaven with God, what activity could we purpose ourselves that would most glorify God?
All fair questions. Please... would a Traditional Christian answer these questions without mentioning singing - I can't hold note.
* What is the purpose of the Earth?
* What is the purpose of mankind, that Jesus Christ should act as a redeemer?
* Why redemption at all when God loves us already "as is."
* Should we live for eternity in heaven with God, what activity could we purpose ourselves that would most glorify God?
All fair questions. Please... would a Traditional Christian answer these questions without mentioning singing - I can't hold note.
Keith | 2:30 a.m. Dec. 10, 2007
I would take a good platonic view of the divine over Mr. Cards ramblings into
why he prefers his young theology of God � even noted by
himself, unwittingly, as he had to use a typical �straw
man� argument to make his weak point.
Mr. Card, your clearly not versed in systemic theology. Get to a Christian book store and ask for it, they all have it.
Please stop offending orthodox Christians by taking a sacred subject and over simplifying it in such a poor analogy. It would be like me taking the LDS Temple Garment and reducing it to a magical talisman. Do not mock what you do not know.
Readers, there are many groups besides Mormons, that fit the bill of �non-Christian� or "Christian Like"� they were called Gnostics and Heretics. The idea of Man becoming a God is not new; There have been many people before that wrote about it and failed to carry it forward with a global understanding.
Mr. Card, your clearly not versed in systemic theology. Get to a Christian book store and ask for it, they all have it.
Please stop offending orthodox Christians by taking a sacred subject and over simplifying it in such a poor analogy. It would be like me taking the LDS Temple Garment and reducing it to a magical talisman. Do not mock what you do not know.
Readers, there are many groups besides Mormons, that fit the bill of �non-Christian� or "Christian Like"� they were called Gnostics and Heretics. The idea of Man becoming a God is not new; There have been many people before that wrote about it and failed to carry it forward with a global understanding.
Peter Martin | 4:06 a.m. Dec. 10, 2007
Wow alot of comments. "Just Thinking" stated that Pres. Hinckley does
not know much about us becoming like God. Well he and all the others need to
read the King Follet discourse in Teaching of the Prophet Joseph Smith. I think
it is on page 309. Joseph explains it very well. Also to "John Q.
Public" In the 22nd Chapter of Revelation John writes to not add to the
prophecies of this book. Most people use this scripture as to why the BofM is
against the bible. should we also include the creeds in this prohabition? (Iknow
the verse only applies to the book of Revelation.) If in doubt go ask God as
Joseph Smith did. He (God) will answer. It make take time but it will come. You
need to listen. One last thing those many posts who state that there is no
evidence of the BofM listen to John Clark's talk at the Worlds of Joseph
Smith confernce 2nd session 3rd speaker, to see what is really happening.
rvalens2 | 5:37 a.m. Dec. 10, 2007
Mr. Card has missed a very important point! Traditional Christians and
Evangelicals have many reasons (besides the Holy Trinity) why they don't
consider the LDS faith to be Christian. Here are just a few.
A second Bible, the Book of Mormon.
Three levels of Heaven.
The belief that the LDS faith is the one true church on Earth.
Baptisms for the dead.
The idea that we can become Gods.
Marriage for time and all eternity.
And one more: The LDS teaching that claims it is the Bible that is in error whenever it and the Book of Mormon disagree.
All of the above beliefs are heretical to most christian faiths and really ticks them off. Don't believe me? Just ask any of your Catholic, Baptist, Assembly of God, Penecostal or other christian friends what they think of these beliefs.
Whatever happens though, don't blame me ... I'm agnostic. I don't know if GOD exists but I sure wish SHE would visit us soon and settle the issue.
A second Bible, the Book of Mormon.
Three levels of Heaven.
The belief that the LDS faith is the one true church on Earth.
Baptisms for the dead.
The idea that we can become Gods.
Marriage for time and all eternity.
And one more: The LDS teaching that claims it is the Bible that is in error whenever it and the Book of Mormon disagree.
All of the above beliefs are heretical to most christian faiths and really ticks them off. Don't believe me? Just ask any of your Catholic, Baptist, Assembly of God, Penecostal or other christian friends what they think of these beliefs.
Whatever happens though, don't blame me ... I'm agnostic. I don't know if GOD exists but I sure wish SHE would visit us soon and settle the issue.
Re: Into the fray: | 6:43 a.m. Dec. 10, 2007
Great questions - too little space to answer them in detail.
Q# 1 & 2 are the same qustion. The Bible points to our being created to have a relationship with God. For further, read "Knowing God" by J.I. Packer
Q# 3: Read Genesis ch 1-3. Man did what was forbidden and (by choice) fell out of relationship with God. The rest of the Bible is about who God is, who man is, and God's efforts and offer of restoration.
Q# 4: The Bible is clear that those who believe in Christ will go to heaven and serve God eternally. It does not specify (enumerate) all celestial activities, but for some great details and theological thoughts on the topic, read "Heaven" by Randy Alcorn.
I do wonder - could you define "Traditional Christian"? I see that reference often and I am left wondering as to what this means.
Thanks.
Q# 1 & 2 are the same qustion. The Bible points to our being created to have a relationship with God. For further, read "Knowing God" by J.I. Packer
Q# 3: Read Genesis ch 1-3. Man did what was forbidden and (by choice) fell out of relationship with God. The rest of the Bible is about who God is, who man is, and God's efforts and offer of restoration.
Q# 4: The Bible is clear that those who believe in Christ will go to heaven and serve God eternally. It does not specify (enumerate) all celestial activities, but for some great details and theological thoughts on the topic, read "Heaven" by Randy Alcorn.
I do wonder - could you define "Traditional Christian"? I see that reference often and I am left wondering as to what this means.
Thanks.
to mark | 10:57 a.m. Dec. 10, 2007
Actually, "Faith without works, is dead." Read in James. Yes by faith
we are saved, but faith and belief are totally different. Faith is action. It
involves following commandments. If then, Faith is all we need, why were
commandments still issued by Christ? We still need to try and live as Christ
lived or else our "faith" is in vain. This aricle articulated the
issue very well between The LDS church and other religions.
Additionally, we are dealing with two different groups as far as the tc's go. We have the actual church-goers, (good people trying to live their lives as they understand the teachings of Christ), and the theologists. These are the people that are stirring the whole contoversy. Granted, they are only explaining how they feel about the LDS church, but it's based off of man-made study. They are depending on their own intelligence to try to interpret the things of God. When the intelligence of man is invloved, there will always be a clash. The LDS church does have different views on the nature of God, but all I hear is "you don't believe in Christ like I do. Therefore you're not Christian."
Additionally, we are dealing with two different groups as far as the tc's go. We have the actual church-goers, (good people trying to live their lives as they understand the teachings of Christ), and the theologists. These are the people that are stirring the whole contoversy. Granted, they are only explaining how they feel about the LDS church, but it's based off of man-made study. They are depending on their own intelligence to try to interpret the things of God. When the intelligence of man is invloved, there will always be a clash. The LDS church does have different views on the nature of God, but all I hear is "you don't believe in Christ like I do. Therefore you're not Christian."
rebecca | 11:15 a.m. Dec. 10, 2007
Orson - You did great with the Mitt op-ed. Be careful, though - we don't
need apologists. Maybe apologize for "Wyrms", but not for doctrine.
Anonymous | 11:33 a.m. Dec. 10, 2007
The "Fall of Man" stuff was designed to control people. The old guilt
and fear trick.
And why did man fall? Because he discovered the difference between good and evil.
And why did man fall? Because he discovered the difference between good and evil.
Eric | 12:44 p.m. Dec. 10, 2007
All religion divides our small planet. People need religion simply because they
need an answer to the question of whether their life has any meaning apart from
now. Mankind will never be united and at peace until religion disappears. For
a Mormon to think that they know more about the universe than a Muslim, a Jew, a
Buddhist, a Unitarian, and whatever man-made flavor you want to insert in the
blank, is simply a failure to recognize that like all man-made religions,
Mormonism is simply the writings and dreams of a hopeful few.
Anonymous | 1:32 p.m. Dec. 10, 2007
Accompanying "The Fall of Man" comes the salvation part. And this is
where it gets hairy. Some say you can't be "saved" unless you are
dunked. Others say you can be "saved" if you get sprinkled. But today
it's gotten to the point where all groups are saying ours is the one, true
group and that is making a mess of the world.
Personally, I'll go back without batting an eye to the first organization that doesn't ask me for "money for the Lord".
Personally, I'll go back without batting an eye to the first organization that doesn't ask me for "money for the Lord".
from a "traditional" Christian | 1:32 p.m. Dec. 10, 2007
Mark -
I agree. The line metaphor is faulty. For his purposes, it works nicely. But he can't say that we see the Trinity in that way. Everyone in this discussion is now caught up in this metaphor. Remember, this is not the basis of our belief! The Trinity is not expressed as three lines. It's not as simple as that. Of course, the "traditional" Christian Church has used metaphors of its own (3 overlapping circles, the egg), but these too can only provide a minimal understanding. Basically, we believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not the same as eachother, but they are all aspects of God. And yes, this definition isn't as clear and understandable as the three separate lines of LDS, but that's the point! God is unknowable, he is unfathomable. And maybe that's why there are so many denominations. There is no clear way to understand God, so people have disagreed about it for centuries. But I think if you look closely at the differences between Babtist, Lutheran, Evangelical, Presbyterian, etc, you will find that the differences are minimal, and they still keep to Christian doctrine and seek to worship the same God.
I agree. The line metaphor is faulty. For his purposes, it works nicely. But he can't say that we see the Trinity in that way. Everyone in this discussion is now caught up in this metaphor. Remember, this is not the basis of our belief! The Trinity is not expressed as three lines. It's not as simple as that. Of course, the "traditional" Christian Church has used metaphors of its own (3 overlapping circles, the egg), but these too can only provide a minimal understanding. Basically, we believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not the same as eachother, but they are all aspects of God. And yes, this definition isn't as clear and understandable as the three separate lines of LDS, but that's the point! God is unknowable, he is unfathomable. And maybe that's why there are so many denominations. There is no clear way to understand God, so people have disagreed about it for centuries. But I think if you look closely at the differences between Babtist, Lutheran, Evangelical, Presbyterian, etc, you will find that the differences are minimal, and they still keep to Christian doctrine and seek to worship the same God.
Anonymous | 2:29 p.m. Dec. 10, 2007
I think it might be time to examine the Tower of Babel story.
Anonymous | 2:56 p.m. Dec. 10, 2007
For one who is not a member of the LDS church I find your words to have a strong
ring of truth about them. Very well said.
Recovering Catholic | 3:02 p.m. Dec. 10, 2007
Traditional Christians - Protestant, Catholic or Orthodox Christians, subscribe
to the Apostles' Creed, believe that the Bible is the normative source of
authority, do not necessarily believe the Bible is inerrant (this is
impossible), and believe that the traditions of the Church must inform
one's understanding of Christianity.
What is interesting is that various churches can be lumped together to be called traditional Christians yet their beliefs are different, then why bother with different churches? Besides I have yet to even figure out what a devote Christian is � I don�t see it in most �christian� churches.
What is interesting is that various churches can be lumped together to be called traditional Christians yet their beliefs are different, then why bother with different churches? Besides I have yet to even figure out what a devote Christian is � I don�t see it in most �christian� churches.
paddyirishman | 3:18 p.m. Dec. 10, 2007
Forgive my ignorance. But you seem to be contradicting yourself. Are you saying
that a person has the capability to become a god, or an image of god??
Again I apologize for my ignorance, your article does not clearly state what exactly mormons believe on this issue. Is it yes a person can, or no no person cannot become a god or an image of god.
If the answer is yes, you are polytheist and you must believe in multiple gods, or at least the possibility of them.
Again I apologize for my ignorance, your article does not clearly state what exactly mormons believe on this issue. Is it yes a person can, or no no person cannot become a god or an image of god.
If the answer is yes, you are polytheist and you must believe in multiple gods, or at least the possibility of them.
Anonymous | 3:21 p.m. Dec. 10, 2007
Please forgive me. I have been to an LDS church function. It reminded me of more
of a business meeting than a spiritual gathering.
And what impressed me was the draw out length of time it took for the service.
I am accustomed to getting it done in 45-minutes or so. Though I see the value of asceticism for some it simply is not for me.
And what impressed me was the draw out length of time it took for the service.
I am accustomed to getting it done in 45-minutes or so. Though I see the value of asceticism for some it simply is not for me.
The Bottom Line - The Nature of | 3:25 p.m. Dec. 10, 2007
100 different Christian denominations - 100 different versions of the nature of
God. 100 different versions of baptism. 100 versions of the sacrament.
The need for a restoration of truth is evident. If Joseph Smith's vision of two distinct personages of flesh and bone is not good enough for you, bring forth your own person, and share with the world the true nature, and by what fruits we can believe.
The need for a restoration of truth is evident. If Joseph Smith's vision of two distinct personages of flesh and bone is not good enough for you, bring forth your own person, and share with the world the true nature, and by what fruits we can believe.
that one guy | 3:26 p.m. Dec. 10, 2007
The only thing that I cannot get over is that God has a body. I ask you this. We
are made in the image of God.. as a glove is made in the image of a hand...
yet.. is it a hand?
Anonymous | 3:43 p.m. Dec. 10, 2007
To focus on God having a human body, is egocentric.
Why trivialize God that way? Take a look at the phlegm, bil, excrement, odors and other distasteful things about the human body and perhaps you might entertain a larger, more limitless notion of a god.
Personally I like George Lucas's notion of "The Force." Now you're talking.
Something far more infinite and greater than a mere human being.
I think the Buddhists are on to something when they suggest to be aware of the real enemy within - the human ego.
Why trivialize God that way? Take a look at the phlegm, bil, excrement, odors and other distasteful things about the human body and perhaps you might entertain a larger, more limitless notion of a god.
Personally I like George Lucas's notion of "The Force." Now you're talking.
Something far more infinite and greater than a mere human being.
I think the Buddhists are on to something when they suggest to be aware of the real enemy within - the human ego.
Robert | 4:01 p.m. Dec. 10, 2007
The devil believes all the things you mention about the road to Christianity,
but I dare say that he is not a Christian.By the way, God is spelled with a
capitol "G"
Braden Van Wagenen | 4:07 p.m. Dec. 10, 2007
Brother Card,
I loved your article. I find it hilarious that throughout the churches history we have been generally mocked and persecuted. I have noticed however that since Mitt Romney began running, we have found out more and more of the opinions people have of our church. For example, the rumor that we exercise polygamy is not with the Church of Latter Day Saints. It is with the FLDS church and I don't know about the RLDS, but the Mormon church does not exercise it. I have many friends who are in the "traditional" churches and they can't even explain what they believe about the Trinity. I mean, I could tell you right here and right now that we believe the god head consists of three separate beings. God the Father, Jesus Christ (the son of God and our savior), and the Holy Ghost. I have also noticed that many of the other churches just don't want to believe what we teach. I mean, who wants to learn that all their life they have been taught incorrect beliefs. I wouldn't like that. Though I will testify that I do believe in the church and people should learn before they mock!
I loved your article. I find it hilarious that throughout the churches history we have been generally mocked and persecuted. I have noticed however that since Mitt Romney began running, we have found out more and more of the opinions people have of our church. For example, the rumor that we exercise polygamy is not with the Church of Latter Day Saints. It is with the FLDS church and I don't know about the RLDS, but the Mormon church does not exercise it. I have many friends who are in the "traditional" churches and they can't even explain what they believe about the Trinity. I mean, I could tell you right here and right now that we believe the god head consists of three separate beings. God the Father, Jesus Christ (the son of God and our savior), and the Holy Ghost. I have also noticed that many of the other churches just don't want to believe what we teach. I mean, who wants to learn that all their life they have been taught incorrect beliefs. I wouldn't like that. Though I will testify that I do believe in the church and people should learn before they mock!
Adam | 4:53 p.m. Dec. 10, 2007
After reading this thread and similar ones recently I finally figured out the
problem and it's just semantics. Christian can mean "One who follows
Christ" or it can mean "One who belongs to a religion that shares the
christian tradition and legacy namely, Catholics, Baptists, Methodists..."
If we agreed on the definitions and assumptions used we would agree on the statements being made.
If we agreed on the definitions and assumptions used we would agree on the statements being made.
Simplicity..... | 5:09 p.m. Dec. 10, 2007
The God I know is simple....
God would not like all these explantions and arguments.
Why would a God allow such chaos? Answer: God doesn't....people do.
Look inside your hearts and look to nature beauty and in a child's eyes to find God. This never fails and it is simple.
God Bless
God would not like all these explantions and arguments.
Why would a God allow such chaos? Answer: God doesn't....people do.
Look inside your hearts and look to nature beauty and in a child's eyes to find God. This never fails and it is simple.
God Bless
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I'm Not Knocking says,
"Nice analogy... However a molecule of water can't be all those states of matter at the same time."
you said-"Yes, but no matter what form it takes, it's always one molecule of water. "
But it's still one molecule of water in one state at a time not all three at once. It's either ice water or steam...God isn't water!
The analogy gotten old...Thanks!