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Theology: LDS god is in harmony with the Bible
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TYLER | 3:25 p.m. Dec. 7, 2007
The whole geometry thing reminded me a lot of the Nysene Creed. I never
understood how the Godhead is 3 seperate beings yet 1, has a body but
doesn't, is unkowable, etc. it just frustrates me to hear
Floridian | 3:27 p.m. Dec. 7, 2007
It is amazing how these comment boards bring out the worst in people. I have
not seen a single board similar to those found on either of Utah's major
newpapers that talks on the topic of Mormonism and Christianity. Apparently,
people in other areas of the country have better things to discuss.
Let people worship, how, where or what they may.
Let people worship, how, where or what they may.
To it's getting old | 3:30 p.m. Dec. 7, 2007
Sorry you are offended that Mormons are doing what Christ commanded, which was
to go forth among all nations of the earth and spread the gospel. They believe
that people who accept the gospel and actually live it will receive the
blessings that come with adhering to it. Granted, some people do try to force
their views on others (look at the current claims of global warming doomsayers
who publicly classify as morons those who don't agree with them). Some
Mormons are too pushy. But I think even those people are well-intentioned and
just want to spread what has given them joy and meaning in their lives.
Comments continue below
Josh | 3:31 p.m. Dec. 7, 2007
Rubbish. Orson Scott Card needs to leave the Cave.
Retired Chaplain | 3:37 p.m. Dec. 7, 2007
Other than Mormons, who claim to have an alternative source to base their belief
in Christ, all other Christians, including the orthodox church, ultimately owe
their derivation to the Catholic Church. And if Catholicism is the original
Christian religion as they profess, then it is really nothing more than an
evolution in the Hebrew faith.
Because Christianity has been around for over 2000 years, most "Traditional Christians" just don't understand how "weird," their religion actually is. Almost every original Apostle became a martyr due to their strange and heretical beliefs. The Apostle Paul claimed to have visions from a dead person and could heal the sick, but still died in a Roman prison. Let's face it, early Christians claimed that there was this Jesus guy is a demigod or avatar who could walk on water, transmute matter, read minds, perform psychic surgery, communicate with supernatural beings, could resuscitate himself from death, and is now immortal. Now, if you can swallow all that, who says that Mormonism isn't the next evolutionary step in the Judeo-Christian tradition?
Because Christianity has been around for over 2000 years, most "Traditional Christians" just don't understand how "weird," their religion actually is. Almost every original Apostle became a martyr due to their strange and heretical beliefs. The Apostle Paul claimed to have visions from a dead person and could heal the sick, but still died in a Roman prison. Let's face it, early Christians claimed that there was this Jesus guy is a demigod or avatar who could walk on water, transmute matter, read minds, perform psychic surgery, communicate with supernatural beings, could resuscitate himself from death, and is now immortal. Now, if you can swallow all that, who says that Mormonism isn't the next evolutionary step in the Judeo-Christian tradition?
Jesus has a body | 3:48 p.m. Dec. 7, 2007
Good point Thomas! If we believe He was resurrected, He has a body today. Can
a popular/traditional Chirstian (non-LDS) person please explain how God the
Father, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are one being if Jesus has a body and God the
Father is a spirit essence, without form?
It might depend on which definition of resurrection is used. To me, resurrection is the reuniting of the spirit and the body, never to be separated again. This new body is immortal and glorified in a perfect form. Do Evangelical Christians believe Christ was resurrected? Do they believe that WE will be resurrected someday?
I am interested in the answer and look forward to a sincere explanation of these beliefs. Please explain.
It might depend on which definition of resurrection is used. To me, resurrection is the reuniting of the spirit and the body, never to be separated again. This new body is immortal and glorified in a perfect form. Do Evangelical Christians believe Christ was resurrected? Do they believe that WE will be resurrected someday?
I am interested in the answer and look forward to a sincere explanation of these beliefs. Please explain.
Do they really believe? | 3:51 p.m. Dec. 7, 2007
Hmmm... | 2:38 p.m. Dec. 7, 2007
"Again, Mormons interpret the Bible and its teachings very differently, from what Biblical Christians interpret the Bible. Very differently!"
Aparently even more than we would have even guessed...See below!
"That interpretation is so different that the Mormon church consistently turns down invitations to participate in Biblical Christian enclaves where Biblical teachings are discussed and the meanings thereof decided upon. These enclaves are very democratic and quire scholarly as well, which is something Mormons undoubtedly have a problems with since they would be in the minority where Biblical teachings and doctrine are concerned."
Maybe because God's teachings shouldn't be put up for a vote!
I believe(And I would have thought even the scholars would also!) the scriptures were revelation from God...Not a club's by laws that could be voted on!
So much for the supposed scholars even having the slightest clue as to what they were discussing!
I think we'd rather be in the minority than to minimalize the scriptures that way!
"Again, Mormons interpret the Bible and its teachings very differently, from what Biblical Christians interpret the Bible. Very differently!"
Aparently even more than we would have even guessed...See below!
"That interpretation is so different that the Mormon church consistently turns down invitations to participate in Biblical Christian enclaves where Biblical teachings are discussed and the meanings thereof decided upon. These enclaves are very democratic and quire scholarly as well, which is something Mormons undoubtedly have a problems with since they would be in the minority where Biblical teachings and doctrine are concerned."
Maybe because God's teachings shouldn't be put up for a vote!
I believe(And I would have thought even the scholars would also!) the scriptures were revelation from God...Not a club's by laws that could be voted on!
So much for the supposed scholars even having the slightest clue as to what they were discussing!
I think we'd rather be in the minority than to minimalize the scriptures that way!
Rigger | 3:57 p.m. Dec. 7, 2007
Only in the Deseret Morning News, a mouthpiece for its owner, the LDS Church,
Inc., would you find such an article in a major city newspaper.
BTW, it is interesting to see the Wikipedia entry for Orson Scott Card. He once was an assistant editor for The Ensign, the church's official magazine.
BTW, it is interesting to see the Wikipedia entry for Orson Scott Card. He once was an assistant editor for The Ensign, the church's official magazine.
Oh gee.... | 3:59 p.m. Dec. 7, 2007
Now we're getting alot of folks out there who are misinterpreting Mr. Cards
words! No wonder you're all so confused about the Bible. Stop putting
your own spin on things and just try to listen to what the author is trying to
tell you...END OF STORY!
But that's not what they tell us | 4:10 p.m. Dec. 7, 2007
John Q. Public | 1:24 p.m. Dec. 7, 2007
"Gee Orson thanks for clearing that up. After all what can 2000 years of study, practice, and tradition tell us about the nature of God, that a mormon sci-fi writer cannot. Look this is real simple. If you are a Christian than you accept the creeds (i.e., Nicene and Aposltes) as a comprehensive summation of your faith. If you do not, then you are not following the Christian faith."
They tell us they you can't add anything to..."The inerrant Bible", prophesy ended with the death of the apostles and the Bible is all you need for salvation in one breath, and in the next breath they swear allegience to an extra-Biblical creed written 300 hundred years after the deaths of the apostles to define the nature of God, because there was a contentious debate about it in the "church".
No one with the authority of Jesus,or a Peter could step forward and say this is God's answer...It was decided by a commitee and it was by comprimise at that.
"Gee Orson thanks for clearing that up. After all what can 2000 years of study, practice, and tradition tell us about the nature of God, that a mormon sci-fi writer cannot. Look this is real simple. If you are a Christian than you accept the creeds (i.e., Nicene and Aposltes) as a comprehensive summation of your faith. If you do not, then you are not following the Christian faith."
They tell us they you can't add anything to..."The inerrant Bible", prophesy ended with the death of the apostles and the Bible is all you need for salvation in one breath, and in the next breath they swear allegience to an extra-Biblical creed written 300 hundred years after the deaths of the apostles to define the nature of God, because there was a contentious debate about it in the "church".
No one with the authority of Jesus,or a Peter could step forward and say this is God's answer...It was decided by a commitee and it was by comprimise at that.
In regards to "Son" | 4:15 p.m. Dec. 7, 2007
Anciently people worshipped the "Sun God". This relates directly to
"Sunday", "Son of God" and so forth. Before the Bible there
was Astrology and many of the stories correlate with the Bible. One example:
The reference to "twelve" (such as twelve disciples) relates directly
to the twelve astrological signs. There is astrology all through the Bible. In
fact, the Bible is the greatest book of astrology ever written with the greatest
compilation of stories and symbolism ever written on the subject.
There will be plenty of people here that will not agree with this statement. So instead of posting your disagreements, I suggest you research this first. Then post your disagreements with references to back them up.
There will be plenty of people here that will not agree with this statement. So instead of posting your disagreements, I suggest you research this first. Then post your disagreements with references to back them up.
Shim Hill | 4:15 p.m. Dec. 7, 2007
I thought he said some good things. I think anyone with his view (and the
integrity to live by it), has the right idea. What kind of judgement (and
record) does the candidate have? This is the key.
One of these days, LDS numbers will overwhelm the other groups of Christians. I hope we act differently than they have.
One of these days, LDS numbers will overwhelm the other groups of Christians. I hope we act differently than they have.
Anonymous | 4:17 p.m. Dec. 7, 2007
Who cares about the Bible when you have the Restoration?
Father of all things | 4:23 p.m. Dec. 7, 2007
Let me see if I understand this correctly. God created man. God is the father
of man. Mormons believe that man can become like their father -- can become a
god.
God created animals. God is the father of animals. Do Mormons believe that animals can become a god?
God created animals. God is the father of animals. Do Mormons believe that animals can become a god?
Retired Chaplain | 4:39 p.m. Dec. 7, 2007
"Rubbish. Orson Scott Card needs to leave the Cave," excellent
satirical allusion to Socrates's Cavern!
Mr. Card's reference to Catholic incorporation of Neo-Plato omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient being, if not factual, is at least a logically credible theory. Part of Roman success, as an empire, came from its partial acculturation of the predominate religions of their vast conquests, which ultimately resulted in fewer rebellions. Rome was also extremely covetous of Greek culture, philosophy, art, and architecture; when Rome conquered Greece, it immediately began importing and emulating Greek culture; it even sent the children of the aristocracy to Greece to study under the great philosophers. Rome became the official center of Catholicism when Emperor Constantine proclaimed Christianity as the official Roman state religion. These two facts alone would insinuate a plausible mingling of Christian doctrine and Greek philosophy. But, it is the Apostle Paul himself that inadvertently paved the way for mingling doctrine and philosophy. When Paul began teaching on Mars hill, he asserted that the God of Abraham indeed was the Greek's "Unknown God," and the allusion only began there. In the mid-1200, St. Thomas Aquinas furthered this co-mingling, by incorporating, the works of Plato's student, Aristotle's ethics into Catholicism.
Mr. Card's reference to Catholic incorporation of Neo-Plato omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient being, if not factual, is at least a logically credible theory. Part of Roman success, as an empire, came from its partial acculturation of the predominate religions of their vast conquests, which ultimately resulted in fewer rebellions. Rome was also extremely covetous of Greek culture, philosophy, art, and architecture; when Rome conquered Greece, it immediately began importing and emulating Greek culture; it even sent the children of the aristocracy to Greece to study under the great philosophers. Rome became the official center of Catholicism when Emperor Constantine proclaimed Christianity as the official Roman state religion. These two facts alone would insinuate a plausible mingling of Christian doctrine and Greek philosophy. But, it is the Apostle Paul himself that inadvertently paved the way for mingling doctrine and philosophy. When Paul began teaching on Mars hill, he asserted that the God of Abraham indeed was the Greek's "Unknown God," and the allusion only began there. In the mid-1200, St. Thomas Aquinas furthered this co-mingling, by incorporating, the works of Plato's student, Aristotle's ethics into Catholicism.
Oh Really | 4:42 p.m. Dec. 7, 2007
Shim? I disagree with you completely (that LDS will overwhelm the world.) I
believe that the billions of people with their various beliefs will overwhelm
and overcome the LDS.
To the dude who worships the sun | 4:47 p.m. Dec. 7, 2007
You know, I might very well do some research. But when I do, I will find
nothing but junk written by confused people such as yourself. Considering
people worshipped the sun god ANCIENTLY, there's little but modern
philosophies in these volumes. It is impossible to make accurate connections
about the development of religious ideas.
It is like researching the Big Bang Theory. All that is written about it is from relatively modern ideas--things that were thought up in people's heads. Nobody was around when it happened, documenting the events. Therefore, even if I did research your own works, I would never get entirely accurate information--just your narrow ideas.
Furthermore, what's to say that Adam and Eve weren't taught about the SON OF GOD, and that this is the philosophy that was distorted by wicked and confused people who developed the SUN GOD?
Doctrinal confusion has happened before--YOU DO THE RESEARCH. Start be comparing Mormonism (an American based religion) with Zoroastrianism (an Eastern religion). It's not coincidence that they are similar. Just evidience that there is such a thing as truth.
It is like researching the Big Bang Theory. All that is written about it is from relatively modern ideas--things that were thought up in people's heads. Nobody was around when it happened, documenting the events. Therefore, even if I did research your own works, I would never get entirely accurate information--just your narrow ideas.
Furthermore, what's to say that Adam and Eve weren't taught about the SON OF GOD, and that this is the philosophy that was distorted by wicked and confused people who developed the SUN GOD?
Doctrinal confusion has happened before--YOU DO THE RESEARCH. Start be comparing Mormonism (an American based religion) with Zoroastrianism (an Eastern religion). It's not coincidence that they are similar. Just evidience that there is such a thing as truth.
To Retired Chaplain | 4:55 p.m. Dec. 7, 2007
Just what did you teach? This seems strange to me that you claimed to be
representing the clergy and yet you don't believe in the divinity of
Christ. What form of religion did you represent?
To Justin L. Powell | 5:07 p.m. Dec. 7, 2007
Justin,
I Agree with some of your comments and don't understand (Note: "don't understand" is different than Disagree") with others. Similarly, I agree with some of the writer�s views, and I don't understand what he mean's by others (I may even disagree with some of his ideas).
I respect the fact that you are studying YOUR religion and for that reason, I give your opinion some credibility. I think it is a bit presumptuous for any of us to try to explain the beliefs of another religion, as even the members of our own religions are still trying to gain a better understanding of the doctrine ourselves, in order to more fully live by them. I apologize for the writer alluding to the fact that he could explain what YOU mean, better then you can yourself.
I would really like to get something cleared up in my head. I try to use logic, and maybe that is the problem. I am a little confused by the whole feud about whether or not Mormon�s are Christian's. According to "MY" definition of the word Christian, -----Continued on next post�.
I Agree with some of your comments and don't understand (Note: "don't understand" is different than Disagree") with others. Similarly, I agree with some of the writer�s views, and I don't understand what he mean's by others (I may even disagree with some of his ideas).
I respect the fact that you are studying YOUR religion and for that reason, I give your opinion some credibility. I think it is a bit presumptuous for any of us to try to explain the beliefs of another religion, as even the members of our own religions are still trying to gain a better understanding of the doctrine ourselves, in order to more fully live by them. I apologize for the writer alluding to the fact that he could explain what YOU mean, better then you can yourself.
I would really like to get something cleared up in my head. I try to use logic, and maybe that is the problem. I am a little confused by the whole feud about whether or not Mormon�s are Christian's. According to "MY" definition of the word Christian, -----Continued on next post�.
I don't porsonally worhip | 6:16 p.m. Dec. 7, 2007
The Sun! But there's lots of evidence that early people's did.
I'm not saying they were correct in doing so, but I am showing for those
skeptical of the scriptures that there is as much evidence of that skepticism as
there is of your sciptures. Basically, there is no hard evidence of either
one!
As far as I go, I use a balance of both. I don't take scriptures literally, but I use their symbolism to help my life.
This is where I find peace. For those that find their peace in religion...more power to you! Just realize that there are many people in the world who do not and never will agree with you.
As far as I go, I use a balance of both. I don't take scriptures literally, but I use their symbolism to help my life.
This is where I find peace. For those that find their peace in religion...more power to you! Just realize that there are many people in the world who do not and never will agree with you.
Harry Hill | 6:36 p.m. Dec. 7, 2007
It was noted that you are also a Science Fiction writer.
Absolutely TRUE! Nice little novel.
Absolutely TRUE! Nice little novel.
Randy | 6:37 p.m. Dec. 7, 2007
With respect to religion, there is no right answer, any more than there's
is a right answer to the intepretation of an ink blot. If you want it to be in
harmony with the bible, so be it. If you want it NOT to be in harmony, so be
it.
Although having an ink blot interpretation that is to counter to various groups can carry negative ramifications.
Although having an ink blot interpretation that is to counter to various groups can carry negative ramifications.
Kathy Riordan | 6:50 p.m. Dec. 7, 2007
"Jesus has a body" wrote: Can a popular/traditional Chirstian
(non-LDS) person please explain how God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are
one being if Jesus has a body and God the Father is a spirit essence, without
form?
Yes. Traditional Christians do not believe that the three divine persons in the Godhead/Holy Trinity are "one being." That is a common misconception.
They believe they are "one in being with." That is, they eternally co-exist. They do not inhabit the same "body." Words like "essence" and "substance" are used in ways by the traditional Church to describe the relation of the divine persons to one another. "Essence" means "essential attributes." Traditional Christians believe that Jesus Christ is a resurrected being and therefore has a glorified body, and is fully (a) God. They believe that the Holy Spirit (also known as the Holy Ghost) does not have a physical body, but is also (a) God. Therefore, having a physical body is not necessary to be a member of the Godhead/Trinity, or fully divine.
When traditional Christians speak of "God" being spirit, they are referring to the Godhead, which LDS would agree does not "have a body."
Yes. Traditional Christians do not believe that the three divine persons in the Godhead/Holy Trinity are "one being." That is a common misconception.
They believe they are "one in being with." That is, they eternally co-exist. They do not inhabit the same "body." Words like "essence" and "substance" are used in ways by the traditional Church to describe the relation of the divine persons to one another. "Essence" means "essential attributes." Traditional Christians believe that Jesus Christ is a resurrected being and therefore has a glorified body, and is fully (a) God. They believe that the Holy Spirit (also known as the Holy Ghost) does not have a physical body, but is also (a) God. Therefore, having a physical body is not necessary to be a member of the Godhead/Trinity, or fully divine.
When traditional Christians speak of "God" being spirit, they are referring to the Godhead, which LDS would agree does not "have a body."
Lynn | 10:03 p.m. Dec. 7, 2007
Orson Card... beautifully done. I get it.
Fred T | 1:03 a.m. Dec. 8, 2007
Kathy Riordan,
Then what is God? Spirit? Does he have a body? Why would Christ have a body and not his Father? Why, rather than calling it "essence" don't you simply call it "essential attributes" then? And what is the definition of "essential?" What does "one in being with" mean? Why not call it: "One in purpose?" That would sure be more clear. If Christ is (a)God, and the Holy Ghost is (a)God, then are they the same (a)God and wouldn't that meant that they possess the same "body?" Very confusing.
Then what is God? Spirit? Does he have a body? Why would Christ have a body and not his Father? Why, rather than calling it "essence" don't you simply call it "essential attributes" then? And what is the definition of "essential?" What does "one in being with" mean? Why not call it: "One in purpose?" That would sure be more clear. If Christ is (a)God, and the Holy Ghost is (a)God, then are they the same (a)God and wouldn't that meant that they possess the same "body?" Very confusing.
Anonymous | 1:19 a.m. Dec. 8, 2007
Col.2:9 - For in Christ dwells all the fullness of the Godhead in bodily form.
Col 1:15 Christ is the image of the invisible God. 1 john 5;7 There are three
that bear witness in heaven: the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit; and these
three are one. Isaiah 43:10 - anyone who has studied this book knows that
throughout the whole book it is emphasized that there is only one God.
He has made us in his image (Gen 1).. which is body, mind and spirit. Three parts, but one person. Whether it makes sense to you or not, that is what the Bible says. Scientifically, it doesnt make any sense that Mary, being a virgin, was with child..but we who believe in Jesus believe that... because we take God at his word, he cannot lie.
But more importantly, we should love each other more than what i have seen written in these comments! Its sad! and as far as Mitt Romney goes, I like him!!!!!
He has made us in his image (Gen 1).. which is body, mind and spirit. Three parts, but one person. Whether it makes sense to you or not, that is what the Bible says. Scientifically, it doesnt make any sense that Mary, being a virgin, was with child..but we who believe in Jesus believe that... because we take God at his word, he cannot lie.
But more importantly, we should love each other more than what i have seen written in these comments! Its sad! and as far as Mitt Romney goes, I like him!!!!!
To Mr. Powell | 1:22 a.m. Dec. 8, 2007
I took particular interest in your posts, and can tell you have a great love for
God. Merry Christmas to you as well...
John Hamilton | 1:47 a.m. Dec. 8, 2007
I think the fundamental difference between LDS belief and that of, for lack of a
better word, "mainstream" Christianity, is that Mormons actually
believe that we are CHILDREN of God.
Mainstream Christian theology teaches that we are children of God, but they assign an entirely different meaning to the word "child" than the common usage of that word.
In common usage "child" means "offspring". Thus an understanding of our relationship with God as His "children". This is the LDS belief.
Without determining for other Christians what their definition of "child" is when they say they are "children of God", it suffices to say that they do not mean "offspring".
The simple understanding that we are literal "children", that is "offspring" of God makes our understanding that we (any human being) can grow to be Gods quite easy to understand. All the rest of LDS doctrine flows pretty easily and very logically from this basic understanding too.
Mainstream Christian theology teaches that we are children of God, but they assign an entirely different meaning to the word "child" than the common usage of that word.
In common usage "child" means "offspring". Thus an understanding of our relationship with God as His "children". This is the LDS belief.
Without determining for other Christians what their definition of "child" is when they say they are "children of God", it suffices to say that they do not mean "offspring".
The simple understanding that we are literal "children", that is "offspring" of God makes our understanding that we (any human being) can grow to be Gods quite easy to understand. All the rest of LDS doctrine flows pretty easily and very logically from this basic understanding too.
Ms. S. | 2:02 a.m. Dec. 8, 2007
So are some people here saying Traditional Christians don't believe that
Christ has a body?
Catholics most definitely believe in the Body of Christ. We believe in the transubstantiation of the Holy Eucharist. Wrap your brains around that one.
And a better analogy for the Trinity (better than lines) is that of water: ice (the Son as he was on Earth) liquid (the Father) and water vapor or steam (the Holy Spirit). Different forms, but all water.
Catholics most definitely believe in the Body of Christ. We believe in the transubstantiation of the Holy Eucharist. Wrap your brains around that one.
And a better analogy for the Trinity (better than lines) is that of water: ice (the Son as he was on Earth) liquid (the Father) and water vapor or steam (the Holy Spirit). Different forms, but all water.
Anonymous | 4:07 a.m. Dec. 8, 2007
So, did Plato go to heaven or?
Fred T | 7:55 a.m. Dec. 8, 2007
Anonymous,
Though I don't agree with your interpretation of the bible, I do agree that there has been unnecessary vitriol on this posting. I apologize for treating your beliefs the way I did and I'm glad we are both rooting for Mitt!
I hope you have a merry Christmas.
Though I don't agree with your interpretation of the bible, I do agree that there has been unnecessary vitriol on this posting. I apologize for treating your beliefs the way I did and I'm glad we are both rooting for Mitt!
I hope you have a merry Christmas.
Why? | 8:07 a.m. Dec. 8, 2007
Why do Mormons always retreat from the doctrines taught by Joseph Smith if they
truly believe that these "doctrines" were revealed to him by God?
To: Card | 8:36 a.m. Dec. 8, 2007
Thanks, I needed that!
Looks as if lots of other appreciate your essay as well.
I look forward to your next writing.
Looks as if lots of other appreciate your essay as well.
I look forward to your next writing.
SLCWatch | 8:48 a.m. Dec. 8, 2007
To Kathy Riordan-Thank you for your answer. Except in reading it I came away
with a clear belief that your accept the LDS definition as correct doctorine.
That last sentence is confusing about traditional christians saying spirit about
God means the godhead. And LDS would say the godhead is a body just as congress
is a body, or the supreme court is a body. Different definitions of body apply.
Thanks for the comments in a open and non judgemental discussion.
This is all | 9:27 a.m. Dec. 8, 2007
Very interesting for deists like me. The complicated nature of all these vaious
beliefs is not for me. The God I know is in my heart and not in the writings in
disagreement with each other. "God" is love, the universe, and is all
around us. So many of you have said that "Jesus" will be back (or
will come) for centurys. If this gives you peace to live and die and not have
this happen then o.k. But increasingly, people like me that simply love life,
nauture and other people are becoming the norm. We will have nothing more to do
with your explantions and your rationalizations.
God Bless and Merry Christmas (which originally comes from "yuletide" and the winter solstice.)
God Bless and Merry Christmas (which originally comes from "yuletide" and the winter solstice.)
mrhackman | 10:21 a.m. Dec. 8, 2007
The article, though well written, only convinces the convinced. He constructs
what Christians believe, and then deconstructs it. Anti-mormons do this all the
time with Mormon theology. I have been told countless times since moving to
Utah what I believe.
-You don't believe in modern revelation-
Yes I do, I was raised charasmatic!
-You believe God is made of 3 people-
No I don't, I have always known they are three distinct persons.
-You believe God does not have a body-
No, I don't CARE whether or not he has a body.
-You follow the Nicene Creed-
Nope again, have never read it, never seen it, and hardly heard of it till I moved out here.
-You are a product of Platonism-
Goodness gracious, the simplest of web searches will show that major chunks of Christianity not only reject this, but aggressively fight it.
-You don't believe in modern revelation-
Yes I do, I was raised charasmatic!
-You believe God is made of 3 people-
No I don't, I have always known they are three distinct persons.
-You believe God does not have a body-
No, I don't CARE whether or not he has a body.
-You follow the Nicene Creed-
Nope again, have never read it, never seen it, and hardly heard of it till I moved out here.
-You are a product of Platonism-
Goodness gracious, the simplest of web searches will show that major chunks of Christianity not only reject this, but aggressively fight it.
mrhackman | 10:22 a.m. Dec. 8, 2007
Part 2
I am glad Mr. Card's article gives a shot in the arm to his Mormon brothers. However, it does not fly outside the Mormon circles for the same reason anti-mormon stuff doesnt fly with Mormons.
"The main point of disagreement between Mormons and traditional Christianity is that we believe in the biblical God � the God in whose image we were made, the resurrected Christ with a perfect body of flesh and bone � and they don't." - Card
Spoken like a true Anti!
I can sympathize with Mormons who resent being painted with blunt broad strokes by Antis � It is no fun on our end either.
I am glad Mr. Card's article gives a shot in the arm to his Mormon brothers. However, it does not fly outside the Mormon circles for the same reason anti-mormon stuff doesnt fly with Mormons.
"The main point of disagreement between Mormons and traditional Christianity is that we believe in the biblical God � the God in whose image we were made, the resurrected Christ with a perfect body of flesh and bone � and they don't." - Card
Spoken like a true Anti!
I can sympathize with Mormons who resent being painted with blunt broad strokes by Antis � It is no fun on our end either.
arc | 10:27 a.m. Dec. 8, 2007
Why?
"Why do Mormons always retreat from the doctrines taught by Joseph Smith"...
They don't. You just have a distorted view of what he taught. What do you think is the subject of next years lesson material for relief society and priesthood lessons, the teachings of Joseph Smith.
"Why do Mormons always retreat from the doctrines taught by Joseph Smith"...
They don't. You just have a distorted view of what he taught. What do you think is the subject of next years lesson material for relief society and priesthood lessons, the teachings of Joseph Smith.
Anonymous | 10:37 a.m. Dec. 8, 2007
fred-
no apology needed but it is accepted and appreciated. Wish we all were so quick to apologize to each other, that is a trait that Jesus would smile at. Merry Christmas to you as well.
no apology needed but it is accepted and appreciated. Wish we all were so quick to apologize to each other, that is a trait that Jesus would smile at. Merry Christmas to you as well.
Anonymous | 11:17 a.m. Dec. 8, 2007
Mormonism is folk religion with no substance other than what Joseph Smith told
everybody.
Most importantly it enjoys tax breaks.
Most importantly it enjoys tax breaks.
Anonymous | 11:22 a.m. Dec. 8, 2007
Anonymous | 1:19 a.m. Dec. 8, 2007
"He has made us in his image (Gen 1).. which is body, mind and spirit. Three parts, but one person."
However are you three persons living in one body?
Can your body and mind have a separate existence apart from your spirit?
This is just my interpretation of this...Not church doctrine...The Godhead seems to represent the image and likeness in the three idealized stages of our existence...The Holy Ghost that is a spirit represents our premortal life and our acceptance of the Gospel. Jesus born into an earthly body,and His baptism, selfless sinless life, and atonement sacrifice and glorious ressurection represents our earthly progression towards eternal life in the celestial kingdom...Heavenly Father represents the ultimate reward for accepting Christ as our Saviour and following Christ's example of perfection and keeping ourselves from the sins of worldliness progressed to the perfect Man with perfected Celestial body...We are heirs of all this because we are his spirit children as represented in the Testimony of their true nature and position in the Godhead!
"He has made us in his image (Gen 1).. which is body, mind and spirit. Three parts, but one person."
However are you three persons living in one body?
Can your body and mind have a separate existence apart from your spirit?
This is just my interpretation of this...Not church doctrine...The Godhead seems to represent the image and likeness in the three idealized stages of our existence...The Holy Ghost that is a spirit represents our premortal life and our acceptance of the Gospel. Jesus born into an earthly body,and His baptism, selfless sinless life, and atonement sacrifice and glorious ressurection represents our earthly progression towards eternal life in the celestial kingdom...Heavenly Father represents the ultimate reward for accepting Christ as our Saviour and following Christ's example of perfection and keeping ourselves from the sins of worldliness progressed to the perfect Man with perfected Celestial body...We are heirs of all this because we are his spirit children as represented in the Testimony of their true nature and position in the Godhead!
I'm not knocking | 11:36 a.m. Dec. 8, 2007
Ms. S. | 2:02 a.m. Dec. 8, 2007
"And a better analogy for the Trinity (better than lines) is that of water: ice (the Son as he was on Earth) liquid (the Father) and water vapor or steam (the Holy Spirit). Different forms, but all water."
I'm not knocking your beliefs...
Nice anology...However a molecule of water can't be all those states of matter at the same time.
"And a better analogy for the Trinity (better than lines) is that of water: ice (the Son as he was on Earth) liquid (the Father) and water vapor or steam (the Holy Spirit). Different forms, but all water."
I'm not knocking your beliefs...
Nice anology...However a molecule of water can't be all those states of matter at the same time.
Less so? | 11:55 a.m. Dec. 8, 2007
mrhackman | 10:22 a.m. Dec. 8, 2007
"I am glad Mr. Card's article gives a shot in the arm to his Mormon brothers. However, it does not fly outside the Mormon circles for the same reason anti-mormon stuff doesnt fly with Mormons..."
"I can sympathize with Mormons who resent being painted with blunt broad strokes by Antis � It is no fun on our end either."
I believe the article was written to show that LDS beliefs about the nature of God are biblical.
I don't think that this article was written with the intent of being anti-TC...Cozy up to the fire though...Next time someone starts laying out some anti-Mormon stuff...Stop them because now you know how it feels to have your beliefs misunderstood...I encourage the LDS people that read this to do the same!
"I am glad Mr. Card's article gives a shot in the arm to his Mormon brothers. However, it does not fly outside the Mormon circles for the same reason anti-mormon stuff doesnt fly with Mormons..."
"I can sympathize with Mormons who resent being painted with blunt broad strokes by Antis � It is no fun on our end either."
I believe the article was written to show that LDS beliefs about the nature of God are biblical.
I don't think that this article was written with the intent of being anti-TC...Cozy up to the fire though...Next time someone starts laying out some anti-Mormon stuff...Stop them because now you know how it feels to have your beliefs misunderstood...I encourage the LDS people that read this to do the same!
As it should | 12:09 p.m. Dec. 8, 2007
Anonymous | 11:17 a.m. Dec. 8, 2007
"Mormonism is folk religion with no substance other than what Joseph Smith told everybody."
Yeah we believe in the real folksy stuff with God as our Father...The real everlasting substance is waiting on the other side of the veil. I'd rather have that than the transitory earthly substance any day!
"Most importantly it enjoys tax breaks"
Yes because of the constitutional protection that congress cannot enact legislation to inhibit the free excercise of religious beliefs and the separation of church and state and because it's a non-profit organization.
"Mormonism is folk religion with no substance other than what Joseph Smith told everybody."
Yeah we believe in the real folksy stuff with God as our Father...The real everlasting substance is waiting on the other side of the veil. I'd rather have that than the transitory earthly substance any day!
"Most importantly it enjoys tax breaks"
Yes because of the constitutional protection that congress cannot enact legislation to inhibit the free excercise of religious beliefs and the separation of church and state and because it's a non-profit organization.
Deists | 12:32 p.m. Dec. 8, 2007
Here's a discription of modern Deism (in case anyone's interested.)
It makes the most sense to me in life and brings peace where there is chaos.
"Deism is the recognition of a universal creative force greater than that demonstrated by mankind, supported by personal observation of laws and designs in nature and the universe, perpetuated and validated by the innate ability of human reason coupled with the rejection of claims made by individuals and organized religions of having received special divine revelation."
"Deism is the recognition of a universal creative force greater than that demonstrated by mankind, supported by personal observation of laws and designs in nature and the universe, perpetuated and validated by the innate ability of human reason coupled with the rejection of claims made by individuals and organized religions of having received special divine revelation."
Son of Man | 2:15 p.m. Dec. 8, 2007
The Mormons are expert at straw-man arguments such as this one presented by
Orson Scott [fiction-writer] Card.
Yes, the quintessential fiction-writer is at it again in writing fiction to defend the Mormon theology.
But we must wonder why Card tries so hard to argue that the Mormon theology is "Biblical" when that Bible [or Biblical Christianity] IS the essence and manifestation of the Platonic influence Card claims to have "corrupted" theology in the first place!?
And this is exactly the kind of incoherence Mormon apologists slip into. They read a third-rate commentary on Plato and think they are "educated", when the reality is they are little more than clowns who write fictitious children's literature.
If you want to know about traditional Christian theology, talk to a real Catholic priest, or read the recent writings of Pope John Paul II. Don't read the fiction of Card.
God bless you.
Yes, the quintessential fiction-writer is at it again in writing fiction to defend the Mormon theology.
But we must wonder why Card tries so hard to argue that the Mormon theology is "Biblical" when that Bible [or Biblical Christianity] IS the essence and manifestation of the Platonic influence Card claims to have "corrupted" theology in the first place!?
And this is exactly the kind of incoherence Mormon apologists slip into. They read a third-rate commentary on Plato and think they are "educated", when the reality is they are little more than clowns who write fictitious children's literature.
If you want to know about traditional Christian theology, talk to a real Catholic priest, or read the recent writings of Pope John Paul II. Don't read the fiction of Card.
God bless you.
Pyrrho | 2:52 p.m. Dec. 8, 2007
Mr.Card is great at making things up, but not good with facts, philosophy, and
accurate history.
He says, ��we're in perfect agreement. We all point to the Bible and say, �We believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.� We believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God--�
But we are NOT in agreement. LDS theology is not internally coherent regarding WHO is �the God of Abraham,Isaac,andJacob�. Since around the turn of the century, Mormon theology teaches that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is �Jehovah,� who is the pre-mortal Jesus.
By contrast, traditional Christianity teaches either that �the God of Abraham,Isaac,andJacob� is the Tri-une God, or else that He is what Mormons would call �The Father� � NOT Jesus!
Prior to the turn of the century, Mormons believed a number of inconsistent things about God, but more consistent with traditional Christianity: That the �Father� was named �Jehovah� and was �the God of the Old Testament;� that God was NOT �a personage of tabernacle� like the Son; that the Holy Spirit/Ghost was �the shared mind� between the Father and the Son.
So, be careful what Mormons (especially Card and Romney) tell you they believe.
He says, ��we're in perfect agreement. We all point to the Bible and say, �We believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.� We believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God--�
But we are NOT in agreement. LDS theology is not internally coherent regarding WHO is �the God of Abraham,Isaac,andJacob�. Since around the turn of the century, Mormon theology teaches that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is �Jehovah,� who is the pre-mortal Jesus.
By contrast, traditional Christianity teaches either that �the God of Abraham,Isaac,andJacob� is the Tri-une God, or else that He is what Mormons would call �The Father� � NOT Jesus!
Prior to the turn of the century, Mormons believed a number of inconsistent things about God, but more consistent with traditional Christianity: That the �Father� was named �Jehovah� and was �the God of the Old Testament;� that God was NOT �a personage of tabernacle� like the Son; that the Holy Spirit/Ghost was �the shared mind� between the Father and the Son.
So, be careful what Mormons (especially Card and Romney) tell you they believe.
Pyrrho | 3:16 p.m. Dec. 8, 2007
The next reason Mormons might give for believing in three separate beings is
because the idea of a god who is a...
"...Great Spirit without body, parts or passions, who sits on the top of a topless throne, 'beyond the bounds of time and space', whose center is everywhere and circumference nowhere; who fills immensity with His presence and yet is so small He can dwell in your heart"...
...is just unbelievable!
And yet they have this god of theirs called the Holy Ghost that sure seems the exact replica of that great spirit they mocked in their temple endowment for over a hundred years!
Card doesn't understand his own religion's doctrines, let alone those of other Christian sects, and least of all the doctrines of Platonism, neoplatonism, or most philosophy that can't be contained in a fortune cookie. Find truth elsewhere than in Card's writings or Romney's speeches.
"...Great Spirit without body, parts or passions, who sits on the top of a topless throne, 'beyond the bounds of time and space', whose center is everywhere and circumference nowhere; who fills immensity with His presence and yet is so small He can dwell in your heart"...
...is just unbelievable!
And yet they have this god of theirs called the Holy Ghost that sure seems the exact replica of that great spirit they mocked in their temple endowment for over a hundred years!
Card doesn't understand his own religion's doctrines, let alone those of other Christian sects, and least of all the doctrines of Platonism, neoplatonism, or most philosophy that can't be contained in a fortune cookie. Find truth elsewhere than in Card's writings or Romney's speeches.
Ms. S. | 3:49 p.m. Dec. 8, 2007
I'm Not Knocking says,
"Nice analogy... However a molecule of water can't be all those states of matter at the same time."
Yes, but no matter what form it takes, it's always one molecule of water.
"Nice analogy... However a molecule of water can't be all those states of matter at the same time."
Yes, but no matter what form it takes, it's always one molecule of water.
Idaho Kid | 3:59 p.m. Dec. 8, 2007
Since Mormon Doctrine has been discussed, I would like to coment on what being a
member means to me. First of all that God, jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost
live. They are not symbols cooked up in the minds of philosophers for
philosophical discussion. They are real and actually exist. Also I would like to
clear up the fact that Joseph Smith was not the founder of Mormonism. This is
not to take any thing away from He whom I consider to be a great man. The
founder was Jesus Christ. It is His church and always will be. Thats why the
official name is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Merry
Christmas to all men of good character where ever they might be. That includes
women to of course.
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