Deseret News | Elder Ballard responds to evangelical criticism

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Elder Ballard responds to evangelical criticism

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Gretzky | 9:42 a.m. Dec. 8, 2007

let's settle this on the ice hockey rink...

Erica | 10:05 a.m. Dec. 8, 2007

to Mohan:

Thank you for your comments! It is a good time to be alive!

MDW | 10:34 a.m. Dec. 8, 2007

Hooray for America!! Isn't it wonderful that we are free to express our opinions without fear of government oppression!

Comments continue below

I don't get it | 11:12 a.m. Dec. 8, 2007

to Ben:

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all awrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all ccorrupt; that: (the Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith 2:19)

No I'm not Dr. Lao

Al | 12:45 p.m. Dec. 8, 2007

My favorite comment here is the one that points out that members of the "Christian church" have different beliefs from one another (just like Mormons have with the "Christian church." This argument would be much easier if there were just the Mormon beliefs contrasted with one set of doctrines that the "Christians" believe. However, that is not the case. As an example I was recently referred to a book about heaven by a Christian friend of mine. He spoke so highly of it, I went to amazon.com to read the reviews. Time and time again, these Christian reviewers would disagree with each other and yet in essense still say, "the people in 'the Church' need to... see it my way." So, despite their disagreements on doctrine, they still considered themselves part of the same "Church."

We all see things through the colored glasses we have produced through our upbring and life's experiences. From my upbringing and experience as a member of the Mormon church, it seems confusing to me to have varying beliefs/doctrines and yet still believe it is one Christian church.

Al | 12:47 p.m. Dec. 8, 2007

My second favorite comment was about Mormon's believing other churches are an "abomination." Point well taken! It is pretty boldly stated in the Book of Mormon. Mormons can't have it both ways. We can't say we're different and want to be treated the same.

Clark Roger | 1:07 p.m. Dec. 8, 2007

I truly hope I do not offend anyone by my comments. It's been refreshing to see that most people on this comment board have been able to keep a civil tounge.

My main problem with those who distribute literature, comparing LDS doctrine with the doctrine of mainstream Christianity is that mainstream Christianity seems to be all over the place. For example, there are some Christian leaders and ministers who consider the Catholic Church just as much a "cult" as Mormonism. But, there are other Christian leaders and ministers who believe the Catholic Church is a true part of Christianity. So who is right?

Not only that, many Christian faiths have recently become quite devided over issues such as same-sex marriage, as well as gays and females in the clergy. All sides on these issues quote the Bible in an effort to prove their idea is correct.

Mainstream Christians say, the Bible is crystal clear about what faith God wants us to follow and not follow. But whose interpration of the Bible is correct?

Bruce | 1:36 p.m. Dec. 8, 2007

Elder Ballard's response is typical of the kind of attitude and response that almost all LDS members give to questions about their faith. Even in these comments LDS have said: ï¿½We believe what we believe and we don't care what anyone else thinks.ï¿½ Anyone who truly knows the teachings and voice of the Master would never take that attitude.

But then that attitude is supplemented with attacks on other religions, just as Elder Ballard (and Elder Holland in Conference) did in citing and attacking the Nicene Creed. Why? What good does it do to attack the creeds and beliefs of others like that? Anyone who truly knows the teachings and voice of the Master would never take that attitude.

Why couldnï¿½t Ballard, Holland, and Joseph Smith refrain from attacking other religions (i.e., ï¿½all their creeds were an abomination in [Godï¿½s] sight; that those professors were all corruptï¿½)?

ï¿½And [Ballard/Holland/Smith] answered and said, Master, we saw one [preaching in a Church] in thy name; and we forbad him, because he [doesnï¿½t have the ï¿½true-priesthoodï¿½] with us.

ï¿½And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for usï¿½ (Luke 9:49-50).

Beware | 2:05 p.m. Dec. 8, 2007

When Mormons claim that THEY are the ones being excluded from the category of being "Christians", there is a lot of mistaken ideas involved.

The reality is that the Mormons FIRST and ALWAYS have excluded all other religions from the category of being 'TRUE' or 'Christian' in the Mormon sense!

Don't let them win that game! Mormons are the intolerant ones and have been from the beginning. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either running for President or supports a Mormon who is!

Speak | 2:10 p.m. Dec. 8, 2007

D. news...Let the TOWN-HEATHEN voice his opinion. He is a child of God just as we all are. Member or nonmember. Everyone has a voice in this world.

John OHIO | 2:23 p.m. Dec. 8, 2007

The Council of Nicaea was, in fact, held in modern-day Turkey. It was an ecumenical "Council" designed to negotiate (in the diplomatic sense) the differences that had arisen in the Eastern and Western Christian churches following Christ's and the Apostles deaths through the time of Emperor Constantine I, who convoked the Council. Notably one of the main arguments "resolved" by the Council is the same debate being held here! To wit, the Council was divided over the question of the nature of Jesus in relationship to the Father; in particular, whether Jesus was of the same substance as God the Father or merely of similar substance. All but 2 voted against the latter claim -- which ironically happens to be the position by which Mormons (at least partially) are declared to be a non-Christian cult, today. Ironies! We're right back to the same debate held 1700 years ago. In essence the Council of Nicea was much akin to those that negotiated the Kyoto Treaty. The consensus of the time became the orthodox view of the time. Unfortunately neither science nor God works by CONSENSUS. In the end we'll all know the truth -- in the meantime let's keep it light!

Judy | 2:36 p.m. Dec. 8, 2007

This is addressed to all the people out there that take offence at what the Book of Mormon says. Pride goeth before the FAll.

Pot calling the kettle black | 2:51 p.m. Dec. 8, 2007

To Bruce - Ever heard of Ed Decker, Sandra Tanner, Fawn Brodie, Bob Larson, Josh McDowell, Walter Martin, Shawn McCraney, Hank Hanegraaff, Richard Packham, Steve Benson or Mike Norton? Each of these people have written, either in books, pamphlets or on the Internet, MANY negative and hostile things against the LDS Church. Would you consider these people (or some of them at least) true Christians?

Have you ever heard a Christian minister or writer refer to LDS Church members as cultists, brainwashed, spawns of Satan, or as deceivers? Is this the kind of language true Christains use in discribing those with different beliefs from their own.

Sorry Bruce, but your words sound way too much like the pot, calling the kettle black. You may feel that specific words said by LDS Church leaders, past and present, are incorrect. But does that justify the volumes and volumes of books, videos, pamphlets and websites which attack the LDS Church, often using very abrasive words and tactics?

Pyrrho | 2:55 p.m. Dec. 8, 2007

Mr.Ballard is not very good with facts, theology, and accurate history.

He claims that we all believe in the same god. But LDS theology is not internally coherent regarding WHO is ï¿½the God of Abraham,Isaac,andJacobï¿½. Since around the turn of the century, Mormon theology teaches that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is ï¿½Jehovah,ï¿½ who is the pre-mortal Jesus.

By contrast, traditional Christianity teaches either that ï¿½the God of Abraham,Isaac,andJacobï¿½ is the Tri-une God, or else that He is what Mormons would call ï¿½The Fatherï¿½ ï¿½ NOT Jesus!

Prior to the turn of the century, Mormons believed a number of inconsistent things about God, but more consistent with traditional Christianity: That the ï¿½Fatherï¿½ was named ï¿½Jehovahï¿½ and was ï¿½the God of the Old Testament;ï¿½ that God was NOT ï¿½a personage of tabernacleï¿½ like the Son; that the Holy Spirit/Ghost was ï¿½the shared mindï¿½ between the Father and the Son.

So, be careful what Mormons (especially Ballard and Romney) tell you they believe.

Pyrrho | 3:21 p.m. Dec. 8, 2007

The next reason Mormons might give for believing in three separate beings is because the idea of a god who is a...

"...Great Spirit without body, parts or passions, who sits on the top of a topless throne, 'beyond the bounds of time and space', whose center is everywhere and circumference nowhere; who fills immensity with His presence and yet is so small He can dwell in your heart"...

...is just unbelievable!

And yet they have this god of theirs called the Holy Ghost that sure seems the exact replica of that great spirit they mocked in their temple endowment for over a hundred years!

Card doesn't understand his own religion's doctrines, let alone those of other Christian sects, and least of all the doctrines of Platonism, neoplatonism, or most philosophy that can't be contained in a fortune cookie. Find truth elsewhere than in Ballard's responses or Romney's speeches.

justin | 3:34 p.m. Dec. 8, 2007

hey mike: john 6:22 can also be used for christians who are persecuted every day by their morman neighbors,who continue to be little us and explain that they have a message, and that is that my love for christ is not real, because i don't love him in your church.

Bruce | 3:46 p.m. Dec. 8, 2007

To Pot calling the kettle black | 2:51 p.m.

Your Founder, Joseph Smith, started attacking the beliefs of others with "very abrasive words and tactics" from the beginning:

Joseph Smith History: ï¿½all their creeds were an abomination in [Godï¿½s] sight; that those professors were all corruptï¿½

In short, Mormons started it! If you can't handle attacks and criticism, then you are not what you claim to be!

Sebz | 3:52 p.m. Dec. 8, 2007

Hey! Thanks for the article, news article, I loved it!

Religious Judo | 4:27 p.m. Dec. 8, 2007

Elder Ballard is continuing the religious-judo Mormons are so adept at. They make it seem like THEY are the ones being attacked and like the evangelicals are the intolerant, religious bigots who are bad people for persecuting the Mormons.

But it is the other way around! The Mormons have been attacking and persecuting ALL other religions from the beginning when their Founder, Joseph Smith, declared that all other religions were FALSE, and "abominations" and that their leaders are all "corrupt."

That attitude and doctrine continues to this day. It is, truly, a clever form of "religious-bigotry-judo" being used against other Christians.

Mark | 7:42 p.m. Dec. 8, 2007

@ For Anthony:

Latter-day Saints should attempt to be as accurate in our statements about other religions as we wish others to be of our beliefs.

Martin Luther was excommunicated by a papal bull in January 1521. When excommunicated , he was subject to the death penalty if the political authorities ever decided to implement the church's decision.

While he did not build up a religion with himself at the head, his teachings and actions (especially his defiance of the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V) inspired leaders of many German and Scandinavian principalities to break with Rome and set up their own state churches.

He did not believe that authority as taught in Catholicism was necessary and preached a "Priesthood of all believers."

RGH | 8:54 p.m. Dec. 8, 2007

At age 83, I'm probably older (though not necessarily wiser) than most of you who have made comments. I have read every one of them and, to be truthful, the only one I really enjoyed is the one about the fellow being pushed off the bridge. Great story.

Clark Roger | 9:07 p.m. Dec. 8, 2007

Several people have brought up a good point that I feel needs to be addressed. In Joseph Smith's account of the First Vision, he wrote the following:

"I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt."

People must understand this isn't saying all religious who aren't LDS are corrupt. Consider this First Presidency statement from 1978:

"The great religious leaders of the world such as Mohammed, Confucius, and the Reformers, as well as philosophers including Socrates, Plato, and others, received a portion of God's light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals.

"The Hebrew prophets prepared the way for the coming of Jesus Christ, the promised Messiah, who should provide salvation for all mankind who believe in the gospel.

"Consistent with these truths, we believe that God has given and will give to all people sufficient knowledge to help them on their way to eternal salvation, either in this life or in the life to come."

cougarkeith (UtahKeith) | 10:57 p.m. Dec. 8, 2007

Being raised a Protestant (Presbyterian/Methodist) and then converting to Catholocism before converting to "Mormonism", all I can say is the basic difference is just that, the Nicene Creed, vs "Restoration". My faith has increased 1,000 fold over the years, and I am thankful for that. There is no reason to argue, but then again when you feel threatened, it is a natural instinct to "Fight" to "Attack" to "Persecute" and to "Bully". While those who live the true teachings of Jesus Christ continue to try and live the true teachings of Jesus Christ, no matter what their faith. As Tiny Tim has said, "God Bless us all, everyone!"

Jodann | 11:19 p.m. Dec. 8, 2007

How sad it will be if the hysteria over religion results in a wonderful, qualified leader, such as Mitt Romney losing his quest for the Presidency of the United States of America. America needs his integrity and his expertise.
What an opportunity missed.

Scott | 3:34 a.m. Dec. 9, 2007

Jesus Christ never abandoned the Church.....man did. And through a Prophet, the Church was restored.

Dave | 4:14 a.m. Dec. 9, 2007

The evangelicals will still vote for Mitt over Hilary...so it's all a non-issue when and if he gets the nomination.

Jay | 5:32 a.m. Dec. 9, 2007

Jodann, just remember that, if that happens, it will be because of religious fanatics / evangelicals. The other day, Sean Hannity was discussing all the attacks on Romney's faith and implying that they were by "liberals," when most liberals couldn't care less about what a particular candidate's religion is.

Snow white | 11:13 a.m. Dec. 9, 2007

Everyone on here needs to give the other guy a break. Not everyone believes in the same way. We are all different in this world with different ideas. So let it be....Try to be nice. I find religion to kind of war like.

don't tase me bro | 11:29 a.m. Dec. 9, 2007

come on people,just live the letter of the law because we are all small and flawed. we are all going to go through hell together if we don't recognize what is on the horizon. i admire bro joesph and some members...because everytime i think i have had enough..there will appear one who gives me reason to believe that there is goodness in what he died for but i refuse to ignore the elephant in the room such as the polygamy issue along with the victums, seeing similarities in certain members like the kidnapping couple, rednecism printed in public forum which clearly states the thinking of biasism yet still makes ligth by stating "come on we all do it" and the way i bougth up a whole mess of those issues to be distributed to varios news outlets for their information on what is really practiced in thought which lead to actions many times, in the end only kindness matters!

Orson Adams | 11:39 a.m. Dec. 9, 2007

Ballard said "We have additional light and knowledge but everybody has their agency and freedom to listen and believe or not believe," he said.

From my experience: Most people whether religious leaders or others can't comprehend TRUTH when they hear it. A thousand people may believe an issue, but only one may know the TRUTH. Do what is right, let the consequence follow.

Snow White | 12:09 p.m. Dec. 9, 2007

To-Orson Adams, Thanks for your very own view. However, mine is even different than yours. I find too much prejustice and bigotry in religions. Although I do deeply believe in the divine Savior Jesus Christ, and God The Father of all creation. I have a personal and close relationship with both of the divine ones, but not with any particular religion.

Bob Lockwood | 5:42 p.m. Dec. 9, 2007

Is it not an affirmation of revelation that so many critics suddenly find the LDS concept of God shaking their conventinal wisdom?

Sharon | 6:19 p.m. Dec. 9, 2007

Was there a need for a restoration? I don't think so
Matthew 16:18 says: "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter,and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Perhaps a reformation was needed because of corruption but the church has never been lost, God's Word has always been with us since it was given.

MJ | 6:35 p.m. Dec. 9, 2007

Heathen, you are mostly right but your comments need clarification and contention removed.

Elder Ballard and any member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints that truly understands the doctrines of Christ would be the first to proclaim their imperfection. In fact, that is the reason we all need the love, sacrifice and forgiveness offered by the Savior.

The "Church" has imperfection directly related to the weakness and faults of man. The doctrine, however, is pure and perfect.

My experience has been a wonderful one. I experienced many other religions prior to my association with the "Mormon" religion to realize there are many good and positive things offered in most Christ based religions. For the most part, the membership base was full of good people truly trying to live Christlike lives. For that, they will be blessed and should be commended.

However, the invitation our modern Prophet of God extends to all is to see if they can bring all they have that is good and see of the doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints cannot add unto it.

I am glad most people are good and wish them a merry Christmas.

rational minds will prevail | 6:45 p.m. Dec. 9, 2007

I drink too much, I curse, I smoke, I tell horrible lies about my neighbors that are of another faith, but because I am a Christian, Jesus will still save me.

I drink too much, I curse, I smoke, I tell horrible lies about my neighbors that are of another faith, and because I'm Mormon, my church leaders tell me I must repent and change or risk losing my salvation.

What kind of place will heaven be like?

A salute to the Deseret News | 6:52 p.m. Dec. 9, 2007

I have to tell you as a non LDS that I am really impressed with DN (The LDS newspaper) for publishing all of the above! Sure there are a lot of 'attacks' on both sides....... BUT nothing at all would be achieved if people didnt have the opportunity or the right forum to voice their own opinions. At the end of the day this is exactly what it is all about, freedom of speech!! Good one DN!!!!!

Robert | 8:11 p.m. Dec. 9, 2007

Truth is truth, no matter what any one individual or religious group claims, there is only one truth.
The Mormons say they are the only true church, the Muslims say they have the truth, Christianity has the Bible, the Buddists say they have it all together, the Scientologists have Tom Cruise. I think we can all agree that not all of these can be the truth. I think we can all agree that we all have the freedom to choose what is the truth.
But for the LDS to say that they are Christians when they were founded on the believe of Joseph Smith's claims that all the churches are an abomination to God goes to say that they are mis-leading in their representation of their faith.
Christianity is based on the belief of ONE GOD, that Jesus is God and that salvation comes through faith alone is Jesus for salvation.
The LDS church teaches that there are 3 gods in the godhead, jesus is physical offspring of god the father and salvation comes through faith in that jesus and your own personal works of merit to obtain salvation. Mormonism doesn't teach foundational Christianity, never has, never will.

James | 8:27 p.m. Dec. 9, 2007

I'm not LDS but i have to admit I get sick of all the whining coming from non-mormons. I live in Salt Lake and have all my life (46 years). Honestly, except for a select few, the mormons are not too disagreeable. I take a pro-lds slant when it comes to this argument of who persecutes who. Most of the non lds in Utah WANT to feel persecuted and ostracized but that's just not the way it is. Victimization is one of the most sure ways to waste time and get nothing done. It happens in the LDS church of course as well, but I am overwhelmed by the way "oustiders" aggressively attack the LDS church.

bollinger babe | 9:42 p.m. Dec. 9, 2007

Hi Sharon; My understanding re: the scripture you quoted in Matt 16 and actual need for restoration.

The Savior asked disciples,

"whom do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?" and Peter answered,

"Thou art the Christ, the Son of God." And Savior said, "Blessed art thou, Peter, for flesh and blood hath not revealed it to you,"
(you didn't learn it in divinity school/get it out of a book)

"but my Father."

(revealed truth, rock foundation, spirit of revelation comes from the Spirit of God, which reveals, confirms, testifies of truth--just as Peter "knew" he was the Savior)

AND UPON THIS ROCK (OF REVELATION! NOT reason) WILL I ESTABLISH my kingdom, etc.

With the demise of the apostles, (prophesied in NT), need for revelation, (rock foundation of church), and the promised "restitution of all things" (2 Thes 2) in latter days, and with the words of Paul (Hebrews 5:4--no man taketh this honor (of the priesthood, which is authority to act for/in behalf of God/receive revelation/"this honor") it is evident that the proper foundation (ephesians 4:4 et al) would be axiomatic before the return of the Savior. My witness: Joseph Smith: is prophet of this dispensation.

David in New York | 10:04 p.m. Dec. 9, 2007

The dictionary defines Christian as "1)Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following a religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus". If asked, I believe most folks would say a christian is simply someone who believes Christ too. Mormons believe in Christ. Period. Those that fight to label Mormons as something else have developed their own exclusive definition and use it divisively. By the way, the dictionary also says Christian is "3)Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike." It could easily be said that those who actively seek to undermine their neighbors with divisive politics are not Christian.

JJR | 10:09 p.m. Dec. 9, 2007

RGH, while being 30yrs. younger (and certainly not as wise as you) I agree with you 100%.

Mikey | 10:44 p.m. Dec. 9, 2007

"all their creeds were an abomination in [Godï¿½s] sight; that those professors were all corrupt" < has been attributed to Joseph Smith in ERROR. In fact they are the words of Christ regarding the churches of the day, paraphrased/quoted by Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith while seeking an answer to the question:"My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join." Joseph fully intended to be shown which church to join and be done with it. However it was not to be.."I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong." These notions did not originate from Joseph Smith, but with Jesus.

Biblical Teaching | 10:52 p.m. Dec. 9, 2007

Many quote, "Confess and you will be saved" but they fail to quote, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in they name? and in they name have cast out devils? and in they name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me ye that work iniquity." In 1 John 2:4, "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." The term "confess" must be understood for it is how we are saved by our Lord Jesus. Those who say you don't work your way into heaven are preaching the Devil's message. Jesus has made it clear that you must keep the commandments to know him. If you don't know Jesus, you can't confess him. Believing on Jesus means believing Jesus. Lip service confession without obedience will take you straight to hell. I'll be saved when Jesus tells me I am.

Finepixer | 11:04 p.m. Dec. 9, 2007

If I were the devil and my main objective was to destroy families, I would get the parties that are clearly the most effective at protecting and strengthening families to fight with one another, so that rather than focus on the their common interests of bolstering traditional and family values -- they would waste their time and energy in conflict over words and interpretations. As usual, he's winning....

Who do they think they are? | 11:25 p.m. Dec. 9, 2007

God will judge us when we die and God alone will decide who goes to heaven and who doesn't. Why do some preachers tell people they are saved and are going to heaven? Do the preachers think they are God? There is nothing in the Bible that says, "repeat after me the following and you'll go to heaven..... "

Cape Town South Africa | 2:50 a.m. Dec. 10, 2007

If people are so quick to question the book of Mormon, Were do these so called christians think dinosaurs come from, at least belonging to the LDS faith i got better answers than any other church try to give me and In my short lifetime i've attented at least 30 different churches... I rather do my best and believe and hope that my Church is true if it is true than my rewards is so Great if its not true at least I lived a good life and no one can judge me for being a bad person And I will get what the other good christians are getting which is eternal life..

Oh Snap! | 4:15 a.m. Dec. 10, 2007

Can't we just all get along?! Hah. We all love Jesus, it's all good. No need to worry. Just keep doing your thing people!

rvalens2 | 5:49 a.m. Dec. 10, 2007

"For all their differences, Mormons have a lot in common with other churches," Ballard said.

Hmmn... Sorry, I can't agree with that statement. Maybe Elder Ballard should attend a few more inter-faith meetings to discuss the many MAJOR points where most Christian religions disagree with the LDS faith?

i.e., marriage for time and all eternity, 3 levels of Heaven, baptisms for the dead, a second bible, etcetera.

Richard Alan Stanley | 7:10 a.m. Dec. 10, 2007

To know the truth, read the Bible, The Book of Mormon and pray to our Heavenly Father to know the truth of all things. If you are interested in knowing the basics of The Chruch of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints, read the "Gospel Principles" manual found on line with your favorite Search Engine, in the Sunday School Class on Sunday at your local LDS Chapel or purchase one to study at home. The Gospel Principles Manual is the best book that I know of to learn about our Savior JESUS, know as The CHRIST our Savior and Savior of all mankind. All are welcome to come and study with us on Sunday or study at Home with the full/time Missionaries. We, the Latter-day Saints, followers of JESUS CHRIST in this the Latter-day Dispensation of time would like nothing better than to help all become more familiar with what we believe without conflict. We love all of the Spirit Children of our Heavenly, which we all are who have been born of our Co-creator mother's on this earth that was created for the very purpose of us coming to earth to become more like our Heavenly Parents. Love One Another.

dennyG | 7:20 a.m. Dec. 10, 2007

Very interesting.
I was just wondering what Elder Ballard was refering to when he describes the "restoration"?
What was restored?
There was no organized religion 2000 years ago. No Bishops, no Stake Presidents, no Elders Quorum, no nothing.
Joseph Smith didn't restore anything. He made it all up.

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