Deseret News | Teacher shortage 'remains critical'

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Teacher shortage 'remains critical'

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prospective teacher | 5:24 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

There is no shortage of people who would like to teach in the Utah public schools. Many of these are so called alternate routes to licensure candidates, many in science and math. There is enormous suspicion of them in the public system so they are rarely hired. So we need to be really specific when we talk about a teacher "shortage." What this really means is that there is shortage of new college of education candidates in the desired demographic range.

Start teachers at $50k! | 5:42 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

Poor teachers! Most are doing a decent job.They have 4 years of college! Unbelievable....

idling in Wisconsin | 5:54 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

Easy solution for the governor: remove the current licensing procedure / education course college requirements and hire people with college degrees and/or real world experience. The education courses are worthless anyway - they are little more than teacher union indoctrination(which is why I never finished the teacher courses at the U. and just got my degree and went to work). Would I leave my $60k a year real world job in Wisconsin to make some $40k with decent benefits and have summers off ? Yeah, I think I could be persuaded.

Comments continue below

teacher says, add back the arts | 5:59 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

I would deal with the lower pay issue if music, orchestra, band, drawing, and drama were put as a priority in our schools. As a teacher, I had the experience of being just a parent in a the PA Wilson school district. Many Many high achieving individuals come from this district. What do they do. IN elementary they have a full time band teacher. Every hour of the day is spent with a different section of the band. Their recitals are absolutely magnificent for 9-12 year olds. Same with the orchestra. Same for the art specialist, computer specialist, and PE specialist; Yes, our kids need the basics! That would be Reading, Math, and Music and ART. The feeling of professionalism was HUGE in my child's elementary school. The teacher's were relieved of all students at least four-six times weekly. Student achievement in reading and math was huge. Their class sizes were fairly comparable to ours. Yes, the answer is more pay. But first, allow elementary teachers support so they can go to the bathroom a couple times a day if we want to. Let us be professionals add the joy of music and arts back to our day.

Leesa | 6:08 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

Higher salaries = more teachers
More teachers = fewer students in a class
Fewer students in a class = more classes
More classes/more teachers = more classroom space
More classroom space = new buildings
New buildings = Big budget increase
Big budget increase = more taxes

So, higher salaries = more taxes. And somehow *that* is the price that Utahns never seem to be willing to pay. We want a better education system, but we sure as heck don't want to pay for it.

Two Teacher Income | 6:13 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

My wife and I both teach, 15 plus years, masters degrees. We worked in CA and moved back to Utah to be close to our elderly parents and so they can be close to our children. "Combined"- we have 14 plus years post high school education, 30 plus years experience and work 100 plus hours per week.

We both recieved 7 years credit for our 15 years and took just over a $30,000 each cut per year.

People say "But it's cheaper to live in Utah". Not per year.

When our circumstances in Utah change we will move out of State. Utah does NOT respect their teachers. The do not respect my wife or me. Why should we stay?

Feel free to keep spending 51st in the country, hire non-licensed teachers and they will run for the nearest door when they run into a 7th grader with a defiant attitude. I've seen men cry.

Just remember, as hard as it is turning a large ship around (teacher shortage), try it after it starts taking on water. The lack of respect will cost Utah in the long run.

If anyone disagrees, come shadow me for one week.

Considering Teaching? Run!!!

Special Ed Teacher | 6:20 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

To some of you who have downplayed the time a teacher works compared to those of you who have "regular" jobs. Let me explain a thing or two. Although it is true we work 9 months a year and get summers off, our summers are often spent in one traing class or another studying some of the most current strategies and instructional practices to help your children who are way out of control and are in need of some serious parent intervention. Although it is true we are off weekends, we often spend the weekends preparing lessons or grading papers for the next class.

Special Ed Teacher | 6:22 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

Although it is true we only have 990 instructional hours and "work" 8 hours a day compared to others, we also spend a lot of non paid time preparing, processing information, speaking with parents about their kids, preparing individualized lessons for all the special ed students and all the countless non paid hours that have been spent taking care of things.

I am a special ed teacher as well as have a regular ed license. I was in the banking industry before coming to the school, because I wanted to make a difference and maybe correct some of the srewup you parents have made in "teaching" your children and raising them in many abusive environments.

Before you can speak negatively of what we do or how we do thing and what we get paid, spend some time in our shoes and find out what our lives are really like.

Re: Leesa | 6:24 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

Well, if the surplus, taxes, etc. won't pay for it, then we'll still pay more taxes eventually so our future children that are in prison or on welfare can eat there and learn math and reading!
Low salaries = less teachers
Less teachers = larger classes
larger classes = less one on one attention
less one on one = less learning
less learning = low education levels
lower education = ignorance, lack of knowledge
ignorance = less doctors, engineers, nurses, etc.
LESS = LESS, NOT MORE

Re: Chowda | 6:34 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

Vouchers would not have reduced class size. That is one of the biggest fallacies that supporters were "screaming". I know of a local high school that has a student body which is shrinking every year. You would think that it would be a good thing because that would mean that there would be less students in every classroom. Well, I heard it straight from the principals mouth that they had to let a few teachers go last year because of the lack of students in the school. Guess what, the many of the current teachers at that school still have class sizes of 40 or more. When students leave the schools to go elsewhere the administrators let teachers go and keep the class sizes high because it saves them money on salaries and other related expenses. Vouchers would not have helped with the size of classes.

Hmmmmmmmm | 6:35 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

Funny. Teachers want it all their way and their way only. Not anymore. I saw a way to ease the process and help all. And we just shot it down. I will fight to see no teacher gets one more dollar of my taxes. 50% of my property taxes is more than enough for a system that only fosters mediocrity.

RE: Oh Amanda writer | 6:35 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

Both my wife and I have advanced degrees in our career areas. And while I don't wish to talk about myself too much, I will tell you that we both work in the non-profit sector. Much of what we do involves educating the public in a non-captive environment. And we both started our careers with positions paying at best in the low 20's. So yes, I do have experience in education. I love what I do. It doesn't make me wealthy. But I inherited a great legacy from worthy teachers; passion is worth more than money and touching lives is worth more than its weight in gold.

Re: Special Ed | 6:37 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

Parents can make the greatest difference in students' lives. Parents: Please, please remember that teachers (99%) want the best for your children. Do you want the best for them? Then you want the best for teachers. Everyone should be interested in everyone else's wellbeing. That's the only way - the right way.

Re: Re: Oh Amanda writer | 6:52 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

Good for you. That is great. I believe that passion IS worth more than money, but the teachers cannot live on passion alone. Most people don't enter the education profession for the money, but they don't expect to live in poverty either. Please look at the last 50 or so comments on this site, are people just dreaming things up? Also, when you started your career, was that in the 70s or 80s? Prices for homes, etc. then were much less than what they are today. AND STARTING TEACHERS STILL MAKE IN THE 20'S!!!

Re: Hmmmmmmm | 6:53 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

So if all teachers are mediocre, who was going to fill in the new voucher schools? YOU??

Can't afford to retire | 6:54 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

I'm 55 years old, and started teaching thinking I was doing a good thing.

Tuns out, I live in a decent house, but nothing nice. I drive a 10 year old Toyota, buy a new suit each year, and wished I had never started to teach in Utah.

Those of you thinking of entering the profession, the kids are great, the adults are pessimistic and unprofessional, and parents are judgemental and will blame you for everything.

For this, you will need to work 2-3 jobs during the year and full time during the summer. Your wife will not know the feeling of buying something she likes, your kids birthday parties will always be in your yard or at a wealthier friends house. Get used to camping and driving on trips (planes and hotels cost too much).

Your first few years will be exciting when you find ads with coupons for "Top Ramen" on sale, which will mean you can go out to McDonalds for a "special Date Night" on Friday, as long as your parents babysit.

Pay-less has great cheap shoes.

The DI has good deals on clothes.

Actually.

Do as Two Teacher Income suggested.

Run fast and far away...

Teacher in Maryland | 7:05 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

This debate is the same throughout the country. I am considering looking for a job in Utah in order to be closer to my family, but from the sound of it, the situation there isn't any better than here.

RE: Hmmmmmmmmmmmm | 7:06 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

That is sad.

Teachers saw the voucher bill the same as most Utahn's saw it, a tax break for the wealthy, and hurting the average student. That is why it failed.

You didn't get your way, throw a tantrum.

If it was a good bill for the children, teachers would have led the way fighting to get it passed. That is why teacher's teach. For the children.

Those who care about kids, teach.
Those who don't take the big $$$ and dump their kids at the teachers feet and say "It takes a village -- oh, and I'm pulling my kid out for a week for a cruise, could you be the "bad guy" and give them some home work to do while my wife and I go horseback riding on the beach?"

But go ahead and fight to see that teacher's don't get one more dollar of your money to teach your kids... deal with the shortage.

Whatever you do, you didn't get you tax break, so hurt the children, hurt the teachers and your pride will be intact.

As teachers continue to leave the state, you can hold your childs hand and wave goodbye...

See ya...

Parking Lot | 7:10 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

Those of you traveling out of state, check out the staff parking at the local schools.

Compare that to staff parking at Utah schools.

Don't you think teachers deserve at least reliable transportation for their 5 years of college.

Of course not.

My bad...

Teacher salaries = welfare | 7:12 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

That's what my mother-in-law and her six kids had to do, welfare. And she's a great teacher.... Starting salaries should be up in the $50k's in my opinion.

Good Solution Hmmmmmm | 7:22 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

Most teachers get into teaching because an educator had a great impact on their lives.

Let's drive the good educators out of state, then no one will feel the call, all that will be left is private schools, and *bingo*, competition sans vouchers.

We need your help | 7:24 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

Teachers need help. It's not about the money only. It's also about verbal support, just being there and helping with our future population. If we can get parents to support teachers, then teachers will be much happier....Thanks to all the parents who do so much, and thanks to all the teachers who continue to teach. And no, it's not a calling, it's one of the most crucial jobs in America!

Teacher Comments | 7:26 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

The teacher's comments seem to be starting between 6:30 and 7:00 pm.

Where have they been off playing between 3:00 and 7:00pm?

RE: oh Amanda writer | 7:26 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

I'm aware of the implications brought about by inflation/appreciation over time. Since you are so interested, I am decades away from retirement and remember being stunned when the shuttle Challenger exploded as I watched it on TV with the rest of my grade school class. -Talk about a difficult moment for teachers.
My comments aren't meant to belittle those teachers who care about what they do and continually seek to make themselves sharper instruments. On the contrary, I love and respect those teachers. I am however, often stunned by the comments that follow articles about the current state of affairs in Utah public schools.

Jules | 7:46 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

When I went into education I wanted to make a difference in children's lives. I knew the pay was low, but I figured that teachers get the "summers off" so it would be a good job. I also thought that teachers complained too much and that they had a perfect job. Boy was I wrong! Now that I have taught for several years, I can honestly say I have never worked so hard in my life. I am at a year-round school where I take classes and prepare during my "time off". I want to be a good teacher but it is hard when the classes are large, parents are not involved, and supplies are low. Every year I have seen teachers leave for other jobs or teaching in other states because they can't afford to support their families. And sadly, it's usually the best teachers who leave.

RE:Chowda 2:19 | 8:00 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

"the voucher bill wasn't perfect but something has to change".

I am so tired of the old "Change for the sake of change" debate.

How about looking at meaningful, data driven change. Smaller Learning Communities, lower teacher / student ratio, implementing data driven effective teaching strategies (vs. hiring educators without a license therefore no educational strategy training).

Please, either bring a voucher bill to the table that works, or other reforms, but can we please stop whining about losing the "imperfect" voucher bill.

Re:Teacher comments | 8:10 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

What do you mean playing? The teachers that I know usually play during the Summer, with their family - after they've found a second job to pay for such playing......Not too many luxuries here....

Moving Back | 8:14 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

My family will be moving back to Utah within the year. I have 3 teenagers who are outstanding students, high achievers, AP, honors classes, band, orchestra, choir, NHS, sports etc. Reading these posts scares me to death!!! I grew up in Utah, went to high school and college here, haven't been back to live in 15 years- moving back for job and to be closer to elderly parents. Both of us are college graduates with masters. Am I going to have to homeschool my kids? Reading articles in the DMN and the resulting posts in recent days have really got me rethinking my move- at least until all the kids graduate!

Fix the problem | 8:32 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

You want to fix the problem?

You need to listen, how many posts have teachers made on here? Read the posts it is the same common theme on all of them.

But, all people want to say is teachers are just complaining? That we have nothing to complain about. We made the wrong decision when we did not support vouchers.

It is the same old story teachers do not know anything about what they do. That is why we have people on the outside always coming up with programs and solutions that do not work.

If you want to fix the problem someone needs to start listening, stop telling us how good we got it. If it was so good everyone would be flooding the field, simple law of supply and demand.

I hate so say it, but I hope the shortage gets much worse; then, and maybe then, someone will listen.

But, what will happen we will get accused of teaching at below standards, we will get hammered in the media for being a failing school. Why? To bring the voucher bill back.
No one really wants to help solve the problem.

Mormon/teacher/woman | 8:43 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

I think the LDS church should contribute to Utah's education system, as they are the ones who, as long as I can remember, have encouraged us to have as many children as possible, as rapidly as possible, and as often as possible. What's the mean price of a temple- a few million dollars? Come on, three temples in south Salt Lake valley???

What I Didn't Sign on For | 9:15 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

When I signed on to teach school more than 25 years ago, I did not expect to make a lot of money. But I also did not sign on for the disrespect from students, the verbal abuse from parents, the constant lectures from administrators that what I do is "never good enough," the inability to buy a place to live, the necessity of supplying my classroom out of my personal funds, the "takeover" of my school by students who speak little or no English. nor the stripping away of my retirement benefits by the Board of Education.

Posting it again | 9:25 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

I posted on the other blog, but I thought I would share here also.

I changed schools this year, fairly new to the profession.

Hey, my desk chair was missing a leg. No others laying around.

$120.00 out of pocket.
VCR/DVD player broke $100.00 from me.
Switch box from computer to TV: $89.00.
Cable from switch box $39.00.
Connector from cable to actually work with VCR/DVD $24.00.
Wall clock didn't work, $24.00.
Stapler $19.00.
Electric pencil sharpener $40.00.
File folders, 9X12 envelopes, dry erase markers, glue sticks, glue, pens, pencils, construction paper, writing paper, ink cartriges for printer, markers, for paper, sharpies, post-it notes, correction fluid, desk pad, wire collection baskets 7 @$8.99 each.

All out of my pocket, on my credit card, low monthly payments.

Come follow me for a day. Restroom when the bell rings, like Pavlov's dog, 35 minute lunch (duty free, but what to do when kids fight).

All to educate your children because it takes a village, and you guys don't want to help.

Teachers are so important | 9:24 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

It's interesting. I've talked to many people who have mentioned that teachers are underpaid and undervalued. Most of these people who made these comments were parents. Many seem to understand this situation. Both my wife and I have lived out of the country, and comparatively speaking teachers are given much more respect and admiration. I believe their salaries better reflect that, also, though I know it still isn't as good as it could be. America values many good things, that's why America is so good. However, I believe out of so many things, the one thing we as Americans would do better is to value elementary and secondary education more. Yes, we have many of the best colleges, etc. but without good students who will go to those colleges, what will the colleges and higher ed do? I guess continue importing students from out of country. Maybe teachers elsewhere will help America out indirectly. Something will eventually have to happen....

Re: What I didn't sign on for | 9:34 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

I agree. Most teachers feel the same. I was a junior high school teacher until last year and many of the things mentioned above are absolutely true. I had a great experience for the most part, but I can see how tough it gets because I experienced it in the 4 years I taught. Many teachers who had taught for 20 plus years told me to get out as soon as possible. Even though I didn't leave the public schools because of that, my wife is sure thankful now. She sure couldn't believe how things have spiraled after she subbed my class. I sure hope the best for our students and our teachers! What can we do to help??

LDS | 9:38 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

I believe it was God, who in Genesis commanded that man multiply and replenish the earth.

Mormon/Teacher/Woman needs to bring up those issues with God.

Why not?? | 9:50 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

Who cares whether or not teachers get paid $1000 more a year, every year from now on?? That would cost the state about $20 million a year. With the $400 million surplus, this could go on just fine for 20 years! WHY NOT??

Re: Why not? | 9:52 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

20 years of pay raises would help many teachers stay in the profession - happier not just because of the more stable income, but because that would bring more respect, admiration, and status to our flailing education.....

Interesting | 10:17 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

This blog and the scouting blog are about money issues. One side got too much, the other has too little. Maybe the scout leader could share a little with the Utah teachers, since Utah is the scouting hub of America!!

Interesting. | 10:18 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

Teachers blog and Scouting blog are about money. Maybe the Scout leader could contribute to Utah teachers, since Utah is the Scouting hub of America anyway!

a team | 8:36 a.m. Nov. 15, 2007

Without the Union teachers would most certainly die!

Leesa | 11:13 a.m. Nov. 15, 2007

More teachers = more classrooms = more buildings = construction = building budget = increased taxes. And that is ultimately the price that Utahns aren't willing to pay. "Give us a top-tier school system, but don't make us pay for it". Research the states with top school systems, and you'll see how much higher the state income and property taxes are. Reminds me of the recent slew of Utahns who want their homes to be worth $400,000 but don't want to pay the comparable property taxes. Simple math.

scary mary | 12:23 p.m. Nov. 15, 2007

You get what you pay for...sometimes it takes awhile, but most can see the road we're on leads to a complete wreck. We need to pay more for good educators NOW. I've lived in two other states, and trust me we want to do all we can for the teachers we have now, it can be so much worse. We need to change now and help those most willing to help our children before they change their minds as many already have.

Teacher salaries | 2:36 p.m. Nov. 15, 2007

My dad is a teacher.

There has been alot of talk about starting teacher salaries but not alot of talk about the real problem, KEEPING EXPERIENCED TEACHERS! Over 55% of current teachers have less than 5 years experience?!?! The problem here is retention, and that is what needs to be emphasized, otherwise the teaching proffession will become a revolving door for unemployed college educated 20 somethings and out of work proffessionals. How about we start showing teachers that stick around a little while that we appreciate them?

This has already been mentioned but under the current system it is difficult to justify a salary for a teacher working 190 days a year that is equivalent to that of an engineer working 240.

The article touched on the need to give teachers the opportunity to work more and therefore make more, I think that is an excellent idea.

Re: Teacher Salaries | 6:11 p.m. Nov. 15, 2007

True, experienced teachers are also going out the door. However, I disagree with what you said about the teacher/engineer pay. It's not the days, but the hourly pay that matters. If an engineer were working 190 days, he'd still make much more money than a teacher. In addition, if teachers worked 240 days, under current pay scales in districts across Utah, they'd still make much less. Teachers start at about $17 or $18 per hour, if you do the math. Engineers start well above that....Both jobs seem just as important in our society, don't you think? The values aren't matching up....

Just another Teacher | 10:17 p.m. Nov. 15, 2007

I put in 10-12 hours a day preparing and teaching my classes. I do this to try to ensure that every student has the opprotunity to learn. I did the math and I'm making less than $14 an hour. Sure I'm only contracted to work from 7:30-3:00 M-F, but to do even a decent job I'm at school by 7:00 and don't leave until at least 5:30. Not to mention the work I end up doing at home.
I love my job and have a lot of fun teaching, but the thought is often in the back of my mind "I'm a college graduate and get paid less then I did when I was working my way through college." Good thing I enjoy what I do.
Teachers need more money, or all the good ones will move on.

Honestly | 11:14 a.m. Nov. 16, 2007

I have taught for 14 years have a master's degree and love teaching and kids. My wife loves being a mom and she is awsome. We live in a rural place in a boise cascade built in the 70's. I love it here and so does my wife. I use to coach but it didn't pay enough as a second job, so I went into officiating. I officiaate tournaments in the summer and get by. I drive a 1997 ford ranger. There is plenty of money for classrooom supplies if you look and aply for grants. The students I teach have all they need to be successful and are great. It is what it is and honestly, but I love it and wouldn't do anything else.

stay where you are | 12:14 p.m. Nov. 16, 2007

To the one who posted from out of stateï¿½ stay where you are! You would have to home school your bright children. My son is high IQ VERY respectful and often the teacher favorite. We have been involved with his education. Still, we have found that my son doesnï¿½t know many of the things he needs to know to excel in college. He is finding teachers willing to teach about movies instead of English or History. He has ï¿½permanentï¿½ substitute teachers who are just supposed to control the class. He has some teachers that are GREAT! However, we as parents do a lot more introduction teaching of the ï¿½basicsï¿½ than we should. My son stays in school for the socialization education he needs. I spend 3-4 hours a day at home teaching him history, English, science and some math. My sister moved back to Utah and her children sat for 2 years not learning anything new. Our system here is broken. We do have some great teachers who are definitely underpaid. The class size needs to be reduced. My son has classes with at least 40 students. The money is mismanaged. The test scores are misleading.

Kids learn lots | 3:50 p.m. Nov. 16, 2007

Kids learn a lot at school, but that is the support system. It should be called teacher support, not parental support. The responsibility is on parents to teach, motivate, compliment, and help their children excel. Of course, society has changed and many homes are broken nowadays. So it really isn't so much the schools, it's more the family than needs help. Families get medical attention when medical conditions arise that cannot be solved within the home. And the medical field is very high paying. IT SHOULD BE THE SAME WITH EDUCATION, KIDS SHOULD BE EDUCATED MANY BASICS IN THE HOME. SCHOOL IS MEANT TO COMPLEMENT AND ADD TO THAT EDUCATION. JUST AS WITH THE MEDICAL FIELD, THE EDUCATION FIELD SHOULD BE VALUED MORE AND PAID ADEQUATELY. Teachers will continue to leave because they are treated as if they had less value than that which they really have.... The same would happen in the medical field if society treated it as it treats teachers....

Anonymous | 5:51 p.m. Nov. 16, 2007

The ï¿½basicsï¿½ like major people and events in history? An exchange student from Germany is a student in my sonï¿½s history class. She isn't learning anything new. The sad thing is... the class is a U.S. history class in high school. If students are not learning about the founding fathers of our nation by the 11th grade; then there is something wrong with the way we teach or what we teach. We shouldnï¿½t have to rely on parents to teach ALL the important concepts and pay for public schools. If I am expected to teach my son everything; why do we have public schools?

Moved from Utah | 8:53 p.m. Nov. 17, 2007

My family lived in Orem for a year. A son was enrolled in second year French at a local high school. He complained that the class offered no challenge as most of the material was taught in first year French back home. When we returned to our home state, my son had to repeat second year French. Is it any wonder Utah is considered backward? The education system needs to raise the bar.

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