Deseret News | Reader comments: Teacher shortage 'remains critical'

Reader comments
Teacher shortage 'remains critical'

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lost in DC | 6:25 a.m. Nov. 14, 2007

I see from another headline that Governor Huntsman wants to raise teacher salaries by 6-8% over the next few years. What he ought to do is figure out a way to do it EACH YEAR for the next few years. No, I am not a teacher but my kids have benefitted from excellent, underpaid teachers.

Dixie Dan | 7:01 a.m. Nov. 14, 2007

Teaching is a noble profession, except in Utah. Utah consistantly has the lowest paid teachers and the largest class room size in America. No wonder there is a shortage of teachers in Utah. It is amazing that the state legislature rejected raising the minimum wage in the summer of '06, but had no problem in raising their salaries in '07. Too bad these legislatures can not look past their own wallets and pass this money on to where there is the greatest need.

A critic | 7:36 a.m. Nov. 14, 2007

Utah is facing a serious teacher deficit, and the best the governor can do is offer a 6-8% raise over the next several years? How about a 6-8% raise each of the next several years? No wonder teachers leave the state.

Comments continue below

A Parent | 8:07 a.m. Nov. 14, 2007

I had a family member who was hired to teach history at a middle school in Jordan School District last year- fresh out of college- he was hired at $27,000 a year! A math teacher that I know teaches high school math- one of the best math teachers I have ever met. Kids "get" math when they are in his class. He went back to school last yearto go into a different field because he can't support his family on what he makes as a teacher. I am in the classroom occasionally as a substitute teacher, sometimes on a day to day basis and sometimes longer- filling in for maternity leaves ets. I know what the chaleenges are in the classroom- I know what the compensation is. Frankly I am surprised that there is as many teachers in the classroom as there are. Until we value the good teachers and make it possible for them to stay n the classroom while being able to support their families as college educated professionals , we're going to continue to have this problem.

Former Utah Teacher | 8:08 a.m. Nov. 14, 2007

Again, let me reiterate the same comment as earlier this week. If Utah, and all other states with teacher shortages want to decrease the amount of teachers who leave, those in charge need to quit ignoring the HORRIBLE treatment from administrators that teachers get. Spying, threatening, over-working, back-stabbing, complaining and berating, and any other abusive behavior needs to stop being ignored--and changes need to be made, forced, and reinforced by policy makers--to make it so teachers aren't victims of such behavior. And, this behavior needs to stop being reinforced by over-demanding state leaders, legislature, parents, and so forth. After slaving my life away for years in Utah, I will never return, because I did not deserve to be treated the way I was. These changes need to occur nationwide! Look it up--NAPTA. If policy makers are really serious about keeping teachers, than they should act like it--and stop the abuse!

F Felling | 8:22 a.m. Nov. 14, 2007

This seems like sensational journalism at it's best. According to the Utah Department of Education Finger Facts 2007, there are 22964 licensed classroom teachers in 2007. This is a shortage of 0.75%. This is one missing teacher from every 6th school in the state.

What this means in real world terms is our schools are fully staffed, and there are probably unemployed teachers ready to fill positions. This seems confirmed by my observations of teachers I know who are not employed. (No, I am not one of them. My father is.) I am told that there are multiple applicants for each available position.

Lets save labels like 'critical' for times when we are short a couple of teachers per school (2000 unfilled positions) or the rate rises above 2% (574 unfilled positions).

Anonymous | 8:34 a.m. Nov. 14, 2007

Everyone knows that teaching is a low-paying job in Utah. And yet, people go into teaching every year. Is a doctor or a lawyer more important than a teacher? Certainly not. However, those who go into teaching obviously feel that their job satisfaction is worth the difference in salary between what they could earn in other jobs, or they wouldn't take the job in the first place.

Now - if the state is not attracting enough teachers or enough qualified teachers, then something must be done to curb this trend. It sounds like th

We all make choices.

Ross | 8:37 a.m. Nov. 14, 2007

Thank the teachers union for a teacher shortage. It is one thing to be idealistic and do a good job and another to survive the tactics of the teachers union. You can get more teachers but they won't stay because they cant survive on low salary and because they have to take so much UEA, NEA BS. The voucher vote was a chance to start fixing this problem, the teachers union is unable to move in a positive manner to do anything. Like trying to move a mountain with a stick of wood.

Slacker 7 | 9:04 a.m. Nov. 14, 2007

Large class size and low pay are just 2 reasons teachers are leaving Utah. Teaching in Utah has gotten much harder. My wife has been a teacher for more than a decade. When she started, kids from stable family environments were the norm; today, they are the exception. Teachers today must also be disciplinarians, child psychologists, social workers, counselors, and surrogate parents. Many parents view the lower grades of public education as free child care. As a result, for the first time in her career, my wife is saying that this year may be her last year teaching in public schools.

randy | 9:05 a.m. Nov. 14, 2007

money isnt enough to solve utah's educationl woe's .. it could help ... but it's knowing as a teacher that i have to go into a class room that has over 30 sometimes 40 students in it, please who would really want to be a teacher in this state with classrooms of that size?
then to compound the LARGE classroom sizes, there is the known prospect that every teacher has to be a 'special education' teacher for not one or two but sometimes up to 5 students in each class period .. what teacher wants a utah classroom knowing they have to be a special education teacher because this state demands special education student be mainstreamed ...
and then there is the discipline problem where bad students just get moved from one school to another
then there is this really odd concept in this state , the teacher should be the one HAVING to speak a foreign language instead of the student HAVING to speak english before they can come to school ???
fix the process and you just might get some teachers to stay in the state ?? (besides property tax assessments will force them out anyway)

x-teacher | 9:13 a.m. Nov. 14, 2007

I am one of the 55% of teacher who quit w/i the first five years. I now make twice as much working in the medical field after going back to school and earning a lesser degree of Assoc. of Applied Science. There is no way a single person can live with what a teacher makes. Most of the studies on teacher salaries are very "paded" to show what one specific group believes. If the want to fix the teacher shortage they will start talking to teachers and find out what they need.

A product of Public Schools | 9:27 a.m. Nov. 14, 2007

LOL Look at our great wonderful Public school system. Looks like the teachers union is doing a great job! Too bad there are no other choices for these teachers to look at because public schools dominate the education industry with the Teachers Union at the healm.

Its quite simple... | 9:32 a.m. Nov. 14, 2007

Offer them a DECENT SALARY and the shortage goes away...

TriSam | 9:32 a.m. Nov. 14, 2007

I did not know Utah teachers made so very little. This is terrible. I had assumed they made in the 50-60K range. At least that is where they should be at right out of University. Well, if I was a teacher. It would not be in Utah. And I love Utah. Come on give these people the pay they deserve. To bad i am stuck in California to the time being.

stalwart | 9:38 a.m. Nov. 14, 2007

There are many problems in education, but the primary problem in Utah is teacher pay. Utah's children will continue to suffer because of a greedy legislature and a Governor who is doing the bare minimum to head off this problem. In fact, the Governor cares more about siphoning what little money there is in the public school system away from pubic schools and subsidizing the rich in Utah who want to send their kids to private schools. The governor is practically admitting that the public schools are not in good condition, but siphoning away more money certainly doesn't help. Why doesn't he attempt to fix the problem? There is currently a 400 million dollar surplus in Utah. What rationale is there for not taking immediate action and paying teachers a competitive salary and then increasing it each year? Nobody seems to care about the children of this state, including the Governor. Something is seriously wrong here. Shame on the Governor and the legislature for doing practically nothing to salvage Utah's Public School system and then hording all of states revenue.

Out of Work Teacher | 9:41 a.m. Nov. 14, 2007

I am still looking for a full-time 1-6 position for this year. Why is Jordan not hiring if it is so short teachers? Because they are lacking a high number of special ed. teachers, not classroom ones. This is where the problem lies, and I saw nothing about the specifics in the article.

I want future teachers to know just how hard it is to get a job in this state. If you want to teach and to be hired on, become a special ed. person, where likely 80 percent of the shortage exists.

Steven Jarvis | 9:52 a.m. Nov. 14, 2007

I had an interview in Jordan when Daybreak opened up three years ago and they had five-hundred candidates apply for the school. I too am tired of hearing about massive teacher shortages when last year was really the first that it was extensive (because of Jordan's retirement benefits cuts).

When I was laid off beginning of October at Liberty, I was told there would be no problem finding another job. It is the middle of November and I am about to accept a full time sub job at a Charter school because each job I interview for has a plethora of quality candidates--even the half time ones. What it seems is that the shortages are all in special education in the elementary schools, and I don't have that background. This may be my last year in education because my experience indicates that there are too many teachers that are hired before I am.

Retired Teacher in Texas | 10:06 a.m. Nov. 14, 2007

I am blessed to be old enough to retire from public school employment. I watched the teaching profession decline from a respected profession with many rewards to one which is forced to take on childrearing in an unsafe environment with children who think they rule the world. Teachers are accountable for the performance of their students on comprehensive exams - regardless of whether the child attends school regularly, completes required homework, habitually uses drugs, or disrupts the lessons. Teachers are responsible for student safety during gang fights (with weapons), prison break-outs, and weather disasters. Add on committee assignments, mentoring, open houses, literacy nights, math contests, school festivals, parent conferences, faculty meetings, and university courses required to maintain a license and discover teachers seldom spend an evening at home. Administrators no longer support their teachers, bowing to parents instead. Fearing a lawsuit, principals allow students to misbehave without consequences. Many teachers earn a Master's Degree. The cost and time commitment equals that of a dentist, veterinarian, optometrist, accountant, or business manager. Earning $30,000 the first year and advancing slowly to a salary cap of $55,000 at the end of a career, one is foolish to major in education!

Teaching Major | 10:05 a.m. Nov. 14, 2007

Teaching is like any other profession, it's true. But since education in this country is state run, a shortage indicates a failure in policy. If we say that education is a right in the US--and most of us do--then a shortage means a lower quality of education and therefore an inequality in rights for certain students.
I felt my public education in Utah was subpar. We have exceptional students supported by exceptional families. That's one reason our scores aren't the lowest in the country, even if our teacher pay and class sizes are stacked against us. How far do we think we can stretch our luck? !4% more of Utah teaching graduates seem to think, "Not much farther."

agree with former teacher | 10:06 a.m. Nov. 14, 2007

The abuse and horrible treatment teachers take from administrators is terrible. It seems as if many administrators have zero interest in the well-being of teachers and students. I wish I could tell you what they are interested in, but I just can' tell.

Teacher's Wife | 10:19 a.m. Nov. 14, 2007

My husband is a public school teacher. He teaches because he loves it, and the schedule is wonderful for the family. No, the money isn't great. But there is a lot of good in the life of a teacher.

Being able to find affordable housing on a teacher's budget seems more of an issue than anything else. We bought a modest starter home in the middle of no where and are spending more than half his salary on the mortgage. A larger salary would enable teachers to have a better quality of life and more incentive to stay.

The rigors of the teaching profession are tough compared to many private industry jobs, but my husband gets the summertime to be with his kids, weekends and holidays off, as well. The insurance is better than expected, he enjoys his co-workers and the challenges of helping children who need help.

But, yeah, a teacher pay raise would be great!

Scary proplem | 11:16 a.m. Nov. 14, 2007

I taught for 4 years and truly had a great experience as a teacher. I know many of my students regretted the decision I made to find another career. BUT I HAD TO. I was getting paid $35K with a Master's Degree! I realized early on that I could not sustain my family with this salary, even with the good benefits I had (which were getting worse every year). I've heard several people argue that teachers have Summer's off, holidays, etc. and that anyone could teach a class. Yes, teachers have Summers off but they are not paid, so they have to get a second or third job. And yes, anyone can stand in front of 35 students, but that's it! You can't teach a thing if you're not prepared/experienced/trained. Students will crush you in an instant. Many substitute teachers know that. Something must be done now, not next year, now.

a friend of teachers | 11:25 a.m. Nov. 14, 2007

So if the Utah Teaching lobby is so powerful, then why aren't teachers paid more? I do believe that teachers need our support. They need parents who are engaged in their children's education. They also need resources for their classrooms and not to have to be the ones to break up fights. Out here, teachers earn on average about $20k more to teach and the administrators make it a point to support them. Parents are active in their children's classes and provide support. But the difference is that out here we support our public schools through our taxes and our local politicians know that we care about our schools and don't want to upset the apple cart. We also fund pay raises. Let's hear it for good teachers who care about our children!

teacher | 12:02 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

I don't know how the teachers who are unemployed are still unemployed. I got a job the week I finished student teaching in December. I switched to a new school this year and I got 2 offers from middle schools, 1 from a high school, and 1 from a desperate elementary school. The jobs were in 2 different districts. I applied and interviewed all over but I never worried I that I wouldn't get a job. I am not special ed endorsed, just English and French. Teachers who don't have jobs are not doing enough to apply. My husband is also a first year teacher and he got a long term sub job the 3rd month he was in the state and a full time job this summer. It is not hard to find work as a teacher because districts are desperate. Full time unqualifed subs are filling the gaps!

Three Quarters Work | 12:25 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

State law requires at least 990 instructional hours and 180 school days each year. The rest of us are paid for 2080 hours a year and get 2 weeks of paid vacation. Teachers work less than full time but expect to be paid full-time work. They don't work weekends, evenings (except the 4 parent-teacher evenings but they get 2 days off) they don't work graveyard.

Try being a nurse who works 12 hour shifts, and if you make a mistake a patient could die. How about a truck driver who is gone from home 5 out of 7 days a week, for 50 weeks.

My point. For the number of hours teachers work, they are well paid. Have excellent benefits - health insurance, retirement, 401ks. Ask a teacher how much they pay for their health insurance and compare it to your own. I have to contribute $271 a month for my health plan. I wish my employer paid most of it.

I am thankful for teachers, but I learned and did well in school because of my parents and survived the bad teachers that should have been fired years ago, but are protected by the union.

Why there is a problem | 12:30 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

The teacher union has no power in this state; we battle with the legislature for every penny. I believe it was around 2000; teachers had a one-day walkout because of low pay. In an effort to wake up the legislature, we paid for that by no increase that year and the next 4 were as dismal. I am scared to death to see what happens this year after the voucher debacle.

I would not recommend education for anyone, but if you like low pay, being slammed by the media, NCLB realities of being a falling school and teacher, minimal parental support, putting many more hours than the 8-3 people believe, going to training all summer and not get paid in order to keep your job, no paid holidays, poor insurance, wondering what to do with all the ESL kids, and did I mention no respect, then teaching is not so bad.

I donï¿½t understand why there is a teacher shortage

TEACHER-22 | 12:46 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

Former Teacher...your comments are money $$$!! The bullying and intimidation tactics used by administrators is pitiful at best. I am suprised that there are not more law suits brought against them. Who holds them accountable?

Mary | 1:25 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

3/4 work? No way! Teachers work many hours after and before regular "school hours." When I was teaching high school, I worked from 60 to 90 hours per week, including "holidays" and weekends on school work. Anybody who refuses to understand that a teacher's work stretches far beyond the "school hours" is either sadly ignorant or willfully ignorant. I put in far more hours during the "teaching year" than any non-teaching job requires. Some subjects require much more time than do others; some teachers are more dedicated than are others. I agree wholeheartedly with those who say that it would be easier to keep teachers if administrators would treat teachers with respect and if parents would teach their children to behave decently in class so that the time could be spent in teaching and learning instead of so much "management" of unruly, disrespectful behavior of students. I would never advisse anyone I care about to take up teaching as a profession.

Anonymous | 1:30 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

Nobody in Utah gets paid very much money!

IdahoAdmin | 1:41 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

Give Utah and Idaho five more years and you will not have an education system to worry about. Wyoming, Nevada, Oregon, Washington, and Colorado are taking the remaining few teachers that are currently coming out of our local colleges.
Idaho teachers have received @ 6% in salary increases in the past six years. Would that attract any person to the most honorable profession?
The education system in Utah is at least trying to come up with a few solutions. The politicians in Idaho are snubbing the teaching profession and will eventually have to pay for their closed mindedness.
As the commercial once stated: "You can pay me now or pay me later"

denn034 | 1:57 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

Yet, the schools still function.

lost in DC | 2:15 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

A lot of hyperbole going on here. One thing for F Felling, just because there as a certain number of qualified classroom teachers does not mean there is no shortage. If a qualified teacher can't make a living at it, they would still be in the number you quote, but not in the classroom, hence the shortage. I don't know about the teachers posting who say they can't find a job, my son has fourty students in two of his Jr. High classes, one of them an advanced math class. That's way too many students for 1 teacher.

English Teacher | 2:18 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

If it were just about teaching kids, I would totally love teaching. BUT, it isn't!

Anyone who knows anything about No Child Left Behind legislation knows it is ruining morale and public education. This alone could drive me out of education.

Pay keeping up with the times? Started 1984 at $21,000; pay now (only nine years actually teaching) $35,000. Houses then $40,000; now $140,000 minimum.

As for the hours most teachers work, if you think it is an 8-3 job, walk with me. My contract time is 7:30 to 3:30, but OH! for the luxury of being done at that time. My firends leave work at work, and they can actually have a sick day without preparing for hours so someone can stand in their place for a day. Grading papers, preparing lessons, taking outside courses to keep my license, parent/teacher conferences, committe meetings and assignments, student-advisor assignments, H.S. extra-curricular activities, and oh yeah, did I mention GRADING writing assignments for hours and hours--that's my life when I "get off work."

No pity-party intended. I chose this, love the kids, and feel it is important. Respect and pay equivalent for my degree and experience seem reasonable to ask.

Tim | 2:19 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

I'm a science teacher currently working in Idaho, where I get more pay and a slightly lower cost of living. Several schools in Utah have called (well after the school year started) desperate for a science teacher. The last one called about three weeks ago.
I don't know how English, history, or elementary teachers are doing, but I do know that hundreds of kids aren't going to get a quality science education this year because their classes will be taught by unqualified teachers.
By the way, my biggest class right now is 29 students, and I get more prep time here than in Utah (kids are on an A/B schedule, and attend four classes a day...I only teach three classes a day).
Utah helps pay for people to get education degrees...and a lot of them immediately leave the state for better teaching jobs.

Chowda | 2:19 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

All I hear is teachers and public education administrators complain about a lack of funding but as soon as a solution is presented they work harder then they ever have before to shoot it down (school vouchers). Of course the voucher bill wasn't perfect but something has to change.

The problem with education in Utah is not the teachers' pay but rather the lack of choice for students. 98% of Utah children are educated in Public schools and the solution to the problem is not to pay the unqualified teachers more but rather try and encourage private school education. Isn't something better than nothing? Simply put, Utahns chose their fate when they voted down school vouchers.

Money doesn't grow on trees and throwing more money at the problem is simply not a solution. The system needs to be fixed. Class sizes need to be smaller. Parents who can afford it need to be motivated to send their kids to private schools. Something needs to change.

RE: Chowda | 2:30 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

That argument would make sense, except how are teachers in private schools more qualified than the teachers in public school. Maybe you don't know this, but teachers in public schools are required to have teaching degrees, but teachers in private schools are NOT required to have a teaching degree. The public school system does have qualified teachers and most of them are better than teachers in private schools.

A simple solution to getting more and better teachers in Utah is not vouchers, but giving teachers more incentives, like a bigger pay check.

Cindy | 2:32 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

I wanted to become a teacher, but unfortunetly the school is so expensive that the salary they offer isn't enough to compensate. I am making $32,000 a year at entry level as a hotel sales manager. i just don't think in the case of becoming a teacher that education Pays. Cause it just doesn't and what does that tell you about our system.

Vouchers | 2:49 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

Vouchers are not the solution. I am a teacher and would be all for vouchers if the for every student that leaves public school, the public school gets to select a student to attend the same school.

Vouchers are nothing more than a tax break for the rich. It has nothing to do with choice and reducing class size. It just leaves the public school as a dumping ground.

If these voucher supports are so concerned about students and schools they would have included a way for the problem student to find success at these wonderful instituions of learning.

I wish I could select which kids I teach, but that is one of the qualities of a real teacher, is to reach the kid that struggles and try to transform his life, not run and hide in a private school.

In the real world if you are being chased by a bear covering your eyes to the problem is not going to make it go away.

Amanda | 2:58 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

The problem with vouchers is that they work based on the assumption that private schools are better than public. I am against vouchers because I WENT to private school. Despite all the problems in public schools, they are still much better than private. The years I was in private school, I was held back in math because they didn't offer an advanced math class. I never took geography like I was supposed to. I had a Spanish teacher teaching my math class, and a band teacher teaching us history. However, I did get plenty of religious indoctrination instead. I can't tell you how much that has also held me back in life, as when I went to college I was expected to already know about things like evolution and, well, geography. Parents, NEVER send your kid to a private school. Everyone else, next time a voucher bill comes up, vote against it.

Chowda | 3:27 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

I thought the whole idea here is that the class sizes are too big. Am I missing something? Vouchers you said that for every student that leaves you want to choose one to replace them? The problem with getting teachers opinions about these things is that they are more concerned with their jobs and getting funding then they are about education.

If you want smaller classes then you have to have less students educated in public schools.

Honestly, who cares who the tax break is for? It solves the problem by reducing class sizes. I would scream that if I could. Of course the school voucher bill isn't perfect, but I have yet to hear a single negative about school vouchers. Opponents only bring up that Private schools aren't held to the same standard, which is true. But that is a different issue. Pass legislation to hold private schools to the same standards! But that is absolutely no reason not to vote for vouchers. You can absolutely have both.

Retired Teacher | 3:35 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

It looks like time to pay the piper. Utah teachers have had the largest classes, with near the lowest wages in the country for many years. Now times have changed. Women especially can find higher paying jobs that are family friendly without becoming a teacher. Even the military pays more after four years, than a teacher makes after paying their own way through four years of school. These days teachers are not only poorly paid, but have to face increased disrespect from students, parents and even some community groups. No wonder they quit. Those who choose the profession find that altruism doesn't makeup for the low pay and disrespect, especially when they realize that in today's society, many judge the value of a profession(and teachers) by the salary paid its employees.

Since teachers aren't valued in Utah and are paid less than other professions, perhaps Governor Huntsman was on to something, when he helped several of the districts hire teachers from Mexico. Teacher wages are much lower in Mexico than in Utah, and so there should be plenty of Mexicans willing to teach in Utah schools. Work that appears to be work Americans won't do!

Chowda | 3:41 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

Sorry if somehow you misunderstood me. Private schools are not better than public schools and if somehow you think that is the heart of the Voucher issue then you don't understand vouchers at all. I attended Public schools my whole life and I feel that I got a great education.

However, the public schools are too crowded and the private schools have room.

Amanda, you having a bad experience in private school is the worst reason I have ever heard of to not give others the choice. It comes down to this, Public schools are too crowded in Utah and the problem will only get worse. There simply is no more money (Utah already spends the highest percentage of their budget on education in the entire United States). So what are our options? Either we start killing off kids or we think of other ways to educate them (i.e. private schools).

Does anybody else find it ironic that Utah has the highest percentage of their children educated in public schools and also the largest class sizes?

The reasons I hear for not voting for school vouchers have nothing to do with school vouchers at all. Private school reform is seperate.

New Math | 3:52 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

What type of new math are our teachers trying to teach?

Typical American works 2,000 hours a year (50 hours a week times 40 hours).

Jordan District contract is for 184 days at 8 hours a day = 1,472 hours by contract.

Mary says the typical teacher works 90 hours a week.

90 hours / 7 days = 12.8 hours a day.
90 hours / 6 days = 15 hours a day.

184 contract days/5 days a week = 36.8 weeks

36.8 weeks times 90 hours = 3,312 hours a year.

When do teachers have time for eating, shopping or any other activity since they are always working?

I have 6 family members who are teachers and two neighbors. They become teachers because 1) they love children and 2) they liked the lifestyle. Great benefits, no weekends, nights, summer and holidays off. The female teachers said that they wanted to be home when their kids were home. They average about 40 hours a week and the one who does extra art projects does 50 hours.

How many cars does anyone see at an elementary school after 4 p.m.?

Please tell me how much your health insurance costs per month?

My Reason | 3:53 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

I am graduating in April and I seriously considered going into teaching. But when I saw that the credit requirements to become a certified teacher were twice what the non-teaching major requirements were, I decided against it. There is no way I am going to school for another two years to have more debt and lower pay than I would if I would get a job in a different area.

If they took the credit requirements down, which I would hope they would, I don't think twice the amount of time in college will produce twice as good of a teacher, then there wouldn't be such a lack of qualified people. I highly doubt the extra classes make teachers more qualified.

Mike | 4:07 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

RE: Chowda

If the only way to have smaller classes is to have less students in public schools, should we start telling Utahns to stop having kids?ï¿½ For some reason I don't think that will work.ï¿½ The asnwer for smaller class sizes isn't private schools, it's having more teachers.ï¿½ That's the only way we will ever get smaller class sizes.ï¿½ If private schools, were held to the same standards of education and hiring of teachers, then vouchers might be a good idea, but until then, they are not going to fix anything.ï¿½ You should try to get that legislation passed before you start saying things like "Utahns chose their fate when they voted down school vouchers." The fact is that teachers in Utah do not get paid very much and the only way we can attract more teachers to stay in Utah is to pay them more money.

oh Amanda | 4:15 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

I'm sorry your private school experience was so regrettable. But let us not paint with such a broad brush! There are organizations that award approval to private schools based on merit and excellence. If the school you attended was not so accreditted then you have only your parents to blame. It was my great fortune in life to attend an excellent private, liberal arts school. My teachers had master's degrees from universities such as Yale and Harvard. They were specialists in their disciplines and made all the difference in my life. I shutter to think of the experiences I would have forfeited had I not attended that school.
I don't for a minute believe there is a public school in Utah that could have offered me a comparable education. And lets leave indoctorination out of the conversation. Where critical thinking is prized and valued, free thought abounds. But if you have ever attended an education class at one of the state's universities, then you certainly know what indoctorination is all about. But I am off topic...
Quite simply put, raising class size to pay teachers more is not the answer in Utah public schools!

Re: New Math | 4:40 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

New MATH: Your logic is flawed. They cannot average 40 hours a week, because that's the LEAST amount of hours under contract pay they must work. Also, have you asked if those teachers take schoolwork home? Are any of them men? Do they have kids? I'm just talking from experience. Because I'm sure at least the women are probably not the only providers in the home. That means there are two incomes flowing in. It's not possible to just have one teacher as the only provider and make it in this state. PLEASE DOUBLE CHECK YOUR STATS NEXT TIME, AND BE MORE OBJECTIVE! And by the way, most other jobs don't have 30+ kids to look after for 8 hours. Babysitting (last I checked) was at least $3/hour. Multiply that times 30, or even 15, and THERE'S THE REAL MATH!! That would make way over the $20/hour most teachers make.....IF THAT'S ALL THAT TEACHERS WERE TO DO!!

RE: Oh Amanda writer | 4:44 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

Are you a teacher? Because if you are, you don't know your own pay. How about you try it. Would you leave your current job for a $30K/year job? WOULD YOU?

Old School | 5:00 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

Don't forget the "Good Old Boys Network" for the promotion and hiring of administrators, counselors, coaches and drivers ed. teachers. These jobs are filled before inreviews even begin. However, it is the law that they be posted. Just another form of emotional abuse teachers face.

It is there and it is real!!

Child of Teacher | 5:19 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

My Mom was a teacher growing up and the only provider for our family of six kids.... she never made enough to support us. We were on and off welfare all growing up. She definetly put more than 40 hours in! She brought work home all the time and was at the school a lot of weekends. I think it is more a shortage of qualified teachers. When my Mom went back into the work force it took her three years to get a full time job. She kept getting beat out by someone who had English plus sports degree. In my experiance the teachers who taught,English, History, Math, Science, etc and sports, were usually in it for the sports and only dull majored in a core subject to be hired quicker, but were not interested in the subject. One of my English teachers was like this and all we did was watch videos and read fantasy novels...

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