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Scouts may be thrifty, but some leaders are well paid
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LET THEM WORK FOR IT! | 10:42 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
Instead of giving to FOS can I give to my local troop? Will I remember to do
that if they don't come around asking? I know that we would be happy to pay
the ward scouts good money to rake leaves (and we actually have done that),
aerate our lawn, paint, spread compost, reset the flags in our patio, etc., etc.
There is no reason to buy their gaggy popcorn or just write them a check. I say
if the scouts are going to solicit money for their programs and for their paid
executives, LET THEM WORK FOR IT!!! Themselves!!! Not under the direction of
some poor ward member who should be home working with his own kids!!!
Confused about FOS | 10:50 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
Our ward in California does not have this FOS drive, or if we do I have never
been approached or read about it in the bulletin or from the pulpit.
What disturbs me is the 'obligation' to fill a certain amount 'assessed' to each stake/ward, and the reports that a first and/or second total ward donation has been returned or rejected by the local council because it was not enough?
Exactly what is the punishment/consequence of not meeting the assessment? When is a donation unacceptable?
What disturbs me is the 'obligation' to fill a certain amount 'assessed' to each stake/ward, and the reports that a first and/or second total ward donation has been returned or rejected by the local council because it was not enough?
Exactly what is the punishment/consequence of not meeting the assessment? When is a donation unacceptable?
Comments continue below
Had enough "2" | 10:59 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
Amen, you took the words right out of my mouth. I've got $2,800.00 from
our ward that I'll be turning in tomorrow night.
I feel incredibly guilty after reading this article and thinking of some of the widows on fixed incomes who gave substantially.
I've got 2 years to go but don't know if I can do FOS again. Maybe I'll get released early.
I feel incredibly guilty after reading this article and thinking of some of the widows on fixed incomes who gave substantially.
I've got 2 years to go but don't know if I can do FOS again. Maybe I'll get released early.
WYO Scout Mom | 11:00 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
It appears to me that the Central Wyoming Council has it right. If our FOS
goals are met our boys get to attend a week long scout camp at the most
beautiful scout camp 9 miles from the east entrance to Yellowstone (Camp Buffalo
Bill) for FREE! Yes that's right FREE! All meals included! Now
that's puting those FOS dollars to work! This also works for Cub Scout Day
Camp. I was part of the Trapper Trails Council in Ogden for years before my
move to Wyoming and grudgingly contributed to FOS every year and felt like my
son's troop got nothing in return. Since moving to Wyoming I gladly pay my
FOS and see a return directly for my boys.
Non-disclosure | 11:03 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
A very common practice in our scouting district is for the ward to do a big
fundraiser at the beginning of the year - like a ward auction where people
donate goods and services - then auction them off to each other. Ward members
are told these funds are to support the YM and YW programs, implying they
directly benefit the youth. What isn't disclosed to ward members is that
these funds are also being used to pay the FOS quota. FOS feels like extortion.
For every dollar we spend in the ward on the boys, we spend at least one in FOS.
When you add to that the $10 per boy and leader that the church pays each year
for rechartering, it's a heavy financial burden. The church may have to
abandon scouting because of the sheer financial weight of it. Is there not a
more practical and efficient solution here? When I'm up in the hills above
our town with the boys, I'm really not sure what benefit they are getting
from the BSA bureaucracy.
Do somthing About it | 11:20 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
It has often bothered me to see the amount of money headed in to the BSA and how
very little I see comming back out of it. Camps are Still Expensive and your 30
Cent bage costs a heck of alot more than it ought to. The 10% Gold Level
discount for meeting your Friends of Scouting quota is a Farce.
TIMES UP! As Supporters of scouting we need to be contacting our leaders and demanding a detailed accounting of funds. Scouting Provides some great benefits but has failed to change with the times. Its time the money began to make its way back to the individual kids and the program needs to provide them with somthing they might more readily relate to in order to teach good morals and values. CALL OR WRITE THE COUNCIL AND DEMAND ACCOUNTABILITY AND CHANGE!!!
TIMES UP! As Supporters of scouting we need to be contacting our leaders and demanding a detailed accounting of funds. Scouting Provides some great benefits but has failed to change with the times. Its time the money began to make its way back to the individual kids and the program needs to provide them with somthing they might more readily relate to in order to teach good morals and values. CALL OR WRITE THE COUNCIL AND DEMAND ACCOUNTABILITY AND CHANGE!!!
Scouting makes a difference | 11:21 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
This comment is directly addresed to the author who wrote this one sided story.
Why didn't you ask Paul Moore how long he has worked for the Boy Scouts of
America to earn the salary that he so rightly deserves? Why didn't you ask
him how many nights his family didn't have him home for dinner? Why
didn't you ask him how many summers he spent at boy scout camp while his
family missed out on summer vacations? Sure maybe his salary does seem high for
a non-profit. But, I am positive he has earned every penny he gets. You did
state in your article the starting salary for a professional. Why didn't
you ask any of the scout executives how much their starting salary was? You
have very dedicated prosessionals and volunteers working to help the young men
in our country. One more question for you. Why don't you focus on the
good they are doing for these young men? I guess it is a lot easier to focus on
the negative. This a question I asked myself, "What must have been this
person's scouting experience?"
Confused about FOS | 11:25 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
My earlier post never appeared for some reason. It wasn't abusive,
offensive or off-topic etc., so I am not sure why.
I am active LDS and live in a ward outside Utah and we do not have FOS, so I am not sure about some aspects of the FOS.
If a quota is assessed to a stake/ward and it is not reached, what is the punishment/consequence? Also, it disturbed me when I read that some wards have had their donation 'rejected' or 'returned' with a negative response and told to raise more? When is a donation, of any amount, considered an obligation?
If a ward decides they will not participate in this FOS drive, is it just BSA who is berating them, or does the Church weigh in too?
I am active LDS and live in a ward outside Utah and we do not have FOS, so I am not sure about some aspects of the FOS.
If a quota is assessed to a stake/ward and it is not reached, what is the punishment/consequence? Also, it disturbed me when I read that some wards have had their donation 'rejected' or 'returned' with a negative response and told to raise more? When is a donation, of any amount, considered an obligation?
If a ward decides they will not participate in this FOS drive, is it just BSA who is berating them, or does the Church weigh in too?
JB | 11:29 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
Glad to see my friends of scouting donation is being put to good use...
Todd | 11:30 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
The last time I checked, my boys weren't in Scouts because of how much
someone made or didn't make. They go to camp, and they learn and grow.
It's an incredible experience for them for for a $50 free-will gift I give.
I wonder how much all of the detractors and complainers posting here would pay for a positive experience for their? Maybe they should consider that the next time they drop that amount or even twice that amount to send their boy to the local amusement park.
I have a couple of daughters I love and who I want to be happy. I think a free-will gift, that might help a future son in law treat them well, is worth it.
So, go ahead and complain and overlook what it is we are paying for. Spend your money on a day of rides and candy if you wish. But at least come up with something better. We have plenty of predictors of rain. How about building some arks. I'll give this year, and my boys will be at camp. And I suspect they'll have fun a grow, because that's what I pay for.
Best of luck.
I wonder how much all of the detractors and complainers posting here would pay for a positive experience for their? Maybe they should consider that the next time they drop that amount or even twice that amount to send their boy to the local amusement park.
I have a couple of daughters I love and who I want to be happy. I think a free-will gift, that might help a future son in law treat them well, is worth it.
So, go ahead and complain and overlook what it is we are paying for. Spend your money on a day of rides and candy if you wish. But at least come up with something better. We have plenty of predictors of rain. How about building some arks. I'll give this year, and my boys will be at camp. And I suspect they'll have fun a grow, because that's what I pay for.
Best of luck.
WOW | 11:40 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
Having been a professional Scouter now for 13 years and a member of the church,
I can not believe the hate and scorn shared here. In 1994 I started my carrer
making $23,600 a year. Today I make just under $70,000. I feel I have earned
this salary, and know for a fact that I could be making well over double that in
a for profit company doing what I do. I am in Scouting because I beleive in
what it does for our young people and our communities. I think it rather funny
that people want to complain about what I make. Try walking a mile in my shoes
or another District Executives before you make your critisizm final. A Phrophet
of the Lord made the decision that Scouting should be part of our program.
President Hinckley has re-affirmed this in our day, just google his name and
Scouting and you will find his love and support of the program. Finally the
wisest man of all once asked a group of hecklers, who will cast the first stone?
I guess the stone here has already been cast. Go sit down with a Pro, then
make your decision.
Do Something About it | 11:42 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
It has always bothered me about the amount of money I see going into scouting
and how little I see coming back to the boys. Camps are still expensive and the
30 Cent merrit badges cost alot more.
TIMES UP! The Scout program has outlived its usefullness. It Lacks the appeal and the capability to involve the majority of the young men. It is time for change!!! CALL OR WRITE THE COUNCIL!!! DEMAND AN ACCOUTING OF FUNDS AND INSIST ON CHANGES THAT WILL BRING THE MONEY BACK TO THE TROOPS. The truth is that scouting is more effective on the local level and that is where the money should be.
TIMES UP! The Scout program has outlived its usefullness. It Lacks the appeal and the capability to involve the majority of the young men. It is time for change!!! CALL OR WRITE THE COUNCIL!!! DEMAND AN ACCOUTING OF FUNDS AND INSIST ON CHANGES THAT WILL BRING THE MONEY BACK TO THE TROOPS. The truth is that scouting is more effective on the local level and that is where the money should be.
Scoutyscout | 11:45 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
Where will the LDS Church train leaders without the BSA? Local leadership is bad
enough as it is.
From a Sanpete C.O.R. | 11:47 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
I think FOS donations should stay in the unit or the ward. That way
contributors can see first hand if their donations are doing any good, and
adjust their donations accordingly.
Scout execs could be paid through profits at camps, etc. If the experiences and services they offer troops are "worth it" the market can dictate what they charge for these services.
Local volunteers do the bulk of the meaningful work - we all know that.
In order for BSA to legitimatize itself, it has to find a way to run profitability by some other method than having volunteers canvass neighborhoods for doantions. It doesn't matter if their execs are making one million or fifty thousand. Someone will think it's too much.
Let BSA figure out what they pay their people by running it like a business. Donors can still donate land and money to build camps, etc. BSA can charge what the market dictates for participation and they either sink or swim. I don't care what a scout exec makes if they make it through the profit of their operation as opposed to soliciting little old ladies on social security.
I like scouting - I HATE F.O.S.
Scout execs could be paid through profits at camps, etc. If the experiences and services they offer troops are "worth it" the market can dictate what they charge for these services.
Local volunteers do the bulk of the meaningful work - we all know that.
In order for BSA to legitimatize itself, it has to find a way to run profitability by some other method than having volunteers canvass neighborhoods for doantions. It doesn't matter if their execs are making one million or fifty thousand. Someone will think it's too much.
Let BSA figure out what they pay their people by running it like a business. Donors can still donate land and money to build camps, etc. BSA can charge what the market dictates for participation and they either sink or swim. I don't care what a scout exec makes if they make it through the profit of their operation as opposed to soliciting little old ladies on social security.
I like scouting - I HATE F.O.S.
Anonymous | 11:56 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
For those who are saying they'll never donate to FOS again, perhaps you
should apply the same standard to your tithing goes. I have yet to ever see an
accounting for how much money is paid out to LDS professional staff and
leadership...
Professional scouters have a lot more to deal with than the average volunteer scouter will ever be faced with. They deserve to be paid accordingly if you want a quality program.
One thing I do agree with is abandoning the compulsary nature of LDS scouting for both boys and leaders. I'd much rather have see boys earning their Eagle because it was a personal goal, and not because the church (and by association, their parents) demanded it be done.
Professional scouters have a lot more to deal with than the average volunteer scouter will ever be faced with. They deserve to be paid accordingly if you want a quality program.
One thing I do agree with is abandoning the compulsary nature of LDS scouting for both boys and leaders. I'd much rather have see boys earning their Eagle because it was a personal goal, and not because the church (and by association, their parents) demanded it be done.
The Time has come to say goodbye | 12:16 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007
I have been involved in Scouting for many years.
The only time I see the professional scouters is when they come to collect $$.
On several occasions when I needed assistance from the Council, I was treated as a nuisance.
The badges and awards are overpriced.
There is no benefit to the local unit of having a Council. From my personal experience, the local units receive no benefit from the FOS funds.
Time for the Church to move on.
The Duty to God program is superior to the Scouting program.
The only time I see the professional scouters is when they come to collect $$.
On several occasions when I needed assistance from the Council, I was treated as a nuisance.
The badges and awards are overpriced.
There is no benefit to the local unit of having a Council. From my personal experience, the local units receive no benefit from the FOS funds.
Time for the Church to move on.
The Duty to God program is superior to the Scouting program.
Dave C. | 12:17 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007
I attended boy scout camp with my son when he was a boy scout. We sat down in
the mess hall to eat, and the man in charge said that each table was to send a
scout to serve the food. The scoutmaster told my son to assign someone to do
it. My son said "I'll do it myself", and stood up. The
scoutmaster said "SIT DOWN, you are the patrol leader, YOU don't wait
on THEM. Assign one of these grunts to do it!". My son looked totally
perplexed, but did as he was told. These "professional scouters" are
doing just what they have been trained to do -- getting all the grunts to serve
them. This is the exact opposite of what the church tries to teach: "let he
who would be the greatest be the servant of all". I found that I had to
try to UNDO what the scouts taught my son about leadership. We as a church need
to provide a better program for our boys. This idea of trying to bend Babylon
into something resembling Zion will never work!
son of erik | 12:20 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007
Why is almost everybody being a victim about how much money is going through
the Leaders hands? Did you ever stop and think how much value they are
producing? Exchange creates wealth. So what if they make more then our
president. So dose Bill Gates and look at the value he has created. If your not
happy with your life fix it, you have a brain use it. Turn it on. I'm not
saying go out and sell drugs or anything illegal that would be the opposite that
would be turning your brain off. Stop being a victim because somebody is making
more then you. You should read Atlas Shrugged it is one of the books that will
help turn your brain on and there are many more books out there. We have been
trained to think like socialist. We are Americans! Home of the free, living the
pursuit of happiness, do you want them to create all this value for penny's
on the dollar if that's the case. Then that is just above slavery. Value
for value, you can create any thing in this world. What is holding you back?
That question is for you to decide.
won't take no for an answer | 12:37 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007
My LDS ward came a begging for $$$ for scouts. Since my husband was temporarily
out of work and funds were extremely tight, I politely told them "not this
year." The bishopric member went away but called back and talked to my
husband. The ward got their money and my husband got an angry wife. Just goes
to show that a woman's word isn't good for much in this church.
ex-boy scout seeks work... | 12:40 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007
It seems that many people are concerned at how over-worked this poor
professional boy scout is. Maybe it would make more sense to cut his job
description into three pieces and hire three men to do it. They could each get
a third of his ($214,000) pay, or $71,333. This way thay would all have time
for their families, and they would even have time to be scoutmasters of their
own troops to stay in touch with the realities of scouting.
If three men could not handle the workload of this exceptionally gifted scouter, we could consider paying 4 people $53,500 or 5 people $42,000. This would make much more sense -- especially if they have to resort to snow shoveling!
If three men could not handle the workload of this exceptionally gifted scouter, we could consider paying 4 people $53,500 or 5 people $42,000. This would make much more sense -- especially if they have to resort to snow shoveling!
Mark | 12:48 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007
The Young Women's program is run by volunteers, and they have a great program, often more successful than YM/BSA ever dreamed of being.
Why does the YM program need a professionally-operated "business" to serve as its activities arm? It doesn't! We need mothers, fathers, and neighbors grounded in the gospel. We do not need so-called "pros" with six-figure salaries to create a program on how to raise our children.
New Direction | 12:50 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007
The fact that the BSA is more "big business" than I ever would have
imagined is very troublesome to me. I think there are better causes out there
that I should be contributing to. I don't want my dollars going to pay
that kind of salary. I believe it is completely out of touch with
reality...sorry BSA.
Rachael | 12:52 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007
If anyone in a position of influence in the LDS church reads this I would like
to plead with them to pull our church funds out of Scouting. Statistically we
are losing our young women in larger numbers than ever before, but we still
expect them to run their program on a small fraction of what the Scouting
program "tithes" from faithful members of the church. We support our
leaders' decisions because we are the faithful. Please make a better
decision that will not be such a trial of our faith to support.
NG | 12:55 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007
Lets pray the church drops BSA and goes with Duty to God. Everything we do in
the Church is supposed to point to Christ. Even as we pretend that Scouting
does this (and it doesn't) it (BSA) could be sued by the ACLU for
officially striving to do so.
FOS drive | 1:22 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007
Everytime the friends of scouting drive arrives, I hate the feeling it creates
in our home. "How much are we asked to give this time?" is always the
dreaded question. As a family who has only daughters, I hate it. The young
women don't do this and we would never want them to. It feels just plain
wrong to feel obligated to contribute to something that our family never sees or
even knows where it is going. Something is just not right when the bishopric
members, stake presidency members or anyone else asks for money that is not even
overseen by the church. I gladly give donations to others charity causes such
as pennies by the inch, etc. It's the compulsary feeling that FOS gives
that bothers us the most. I also hope that the Church can find another way
besides the BSA to have meaningful activities for the young men.
George Fisher | 1:27 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007
I have been Scoutmaster or an assistant in four different troops and am
currently serving in one because I care about boys. Being an ex bishop I prefer
the Duty to God program over scouting. I personally will no longer give to FOS.
I was a collector for them this year. BSA is DOA and the program is entirely
bankrupt except for the bloated salaries of its bloated leaders. Time to move on
Elder Dahlquist.
Makes you wonder | 1:29 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007
I really would not mind his salary if we got a good product. The council
website is a mess and I still don't have the refund for items paid for that
we never got becasue of computer problems. If they have enough money to pay
that salary then I think we can expect better services (better bathrooms at East
Fork of the Bear). I have no problem with the scouting program and I hope is
survives despite the fact so many people feel the way they do on this issue. It
is just sad that he receives such a high salary when the services we get justify
an Executive at 100k per year. Please don't destroy the scouting
program!!!!
Rachael, not alone... | 1:32 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007
Rachael your comment about the young women programs not getting the same level
of funding is spot on. I have two daughters (age 17 and 11) who, interestingly,
expressed the same feelings about how maybe their programs would get more money
if scouting were dropped. I did NOT prompt their comments. I had no idea they
felt this way...I feel bad about that. I have always given to FOS and supported
scouting, but never liked the program. It was way too complicated, and
honestly, by about age 15 the boys simply lost interest in it. Some boys never
cared about it (about 1/3) and simply stopped coming. I'm not sure
scouting is accomplishing what the LDS church wants it to accomplish. It may
even be hurting things.
Just Common Sense | 1:37 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007
I believe you get out of scouting what you put into it. The principles that are
taught and the benefits that can be gained are great. That said...
I think it is arrogant and morally wrong to expect one person to volunteer his/her time and hard earned money (i.e. gasoline) to go "beg" for another individual's salary. That is why the BSA has to use so many gimmicks regarding the SME (sustaining membership enrollment) drive, later called "Friends of Scouting," and this year's "Fund One Scout". BSA needs to find another way to raise this money or simply ask their execs to live on less. Because it is morally wrong, it naturally creates a HUGELY negative response. No one complains about burning gas to gather fast offerings because it is based on a morally sound objective. And because it is, it doesn't need a cute name to get people to participate. The "Collect Money For Mr. Jones' Salary Down At The Scout Office Fund Drive" just doesn't have as nice of a sound as "Friends of Scouting" does it? They can pay what they want, but should do away with SME/FOS as a means to get the money.
I think it is arrogant and morally wrong to expect one person to volunteer his/her time and hard earned money (i.e. gasoline) to go "beg" for another individual's salary. That is why the BSA has to use so many gimmicks regarding the SME (sustaining membership enrollment) drive, later called "Friends of Scouting," and this year's "Fund One Scout". BSA needs to find another way to raise this money or simply ask their execs to live on less. Because it is morally wrong, it naturally creates a HUGELY negative response. No one complains about burning gas to gather fast offerings because it is based on a morally sound objective. And because it is, it doesn't need a cute name to get people to participate. The "Collect Money For Mr. Jones' Salary Down At The Scout Office Fund Drive" just doesn't have as nice of a sound as "Friends of Scouting" does it? They can pay what they want, but should do away with SME/FOS as a means to get the money.
A woman's point of view | 2:03 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007
I've got it! I have the answers! I have always wondered what it was those
dedicated mothers in the Book of Mormon did to raise the 2,000 Stripling
Warriors-- NOW I KNOW
They gave to FOSW (Friends of Stripling Warriors)
I need to tell the world!!!
They gave to FOSW (Friends of Stripling Warriors)
I need to tell the world!!!
Pennies By The Inch | 2:04 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007
If you're thinking that "pennies by the inch" is a worthy
charity....think again.
Your pennies are being donated to IHC - one of the most powerful and most protected health care corporations in the country.
It's time for the Church to let BSA and IHC do their own fund raising.
Your pennies are being donated to IHC - one of the most powerful and most protected health care corporations in the country.
It's time for the Church to let BSA and IHC do their own fund raising.
Balance | 2:15 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007
Executives in non profits can and do make good salaries. I personally
don't have a problem with BSA executives making a nice salary, with one
caviat. In most non profit organizations the executives are responsible for
fund raising. In Utah at least, that burden is placed upon the local LDS
congregation. That in my opinion is wrong.
All ties between the LDS Church and Scouts should be severed. If the program is good enough it will succeed upon it's own merits. Also, if the leadership in BSA is worth their salaries they will find ways to survive and even thrive without the LDS Church forcing their youth to participate.
If Scouts is worth the investment in time and resources, let the free market decide, we don't need to have this crammed down our throats anymore.
All ties between the LDS Church and Scouts should be severed. If the program is good enough it will succeed upon it's own merits. Also, if the leadership in BSA is worth their salaries they will find ways to survive and even thrive without the LDS Church forcing their youth to participate.
If Scouts is worth the investment in time and resources, let the free market decide, we don't need to have this crammed down our throats anymore.
Outside Utah | 2:23 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007
I live many states away from Utah and here, the wards are compelled to register
EVERY ym under the age of 18. Scouting is not scouting when it's mandated.
And scouting is not scouting when you have fat cats sitting on the kitty litter
while local "volunteers" babysit boys who don't care about
scouting. I've never understood the reason behind compelling boys to take
part in scouting when the LDS church is built on free agency.
I've pulled my boys out of a Church troop and put them in a community church. The program is much better and the boys and leaders WANT to be there. They will become Eagles because of their desire and work and not because some church leader gives it too them to make them FEEL like they've accomplished something.
Maybe this will help in making the overall change needed to ensure the integrity of both organizations!
I've pulled my boys out of a Church troop and put them in a community church. The program is much better and the boys and leaders WANT to be there. They will become Eagles because of their desire and work and not because some church leader gives it too them to make them FEEL like they've accomplished something.
Maybe this will help in making the overall change needed to ensure the integrity of both organizations!
Still wondering about FOS | 2:29 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007
Being outside of Utah and not in a stake/ward/state which does the FOS, I am
still wondering how this FOS drive works. Who makes it mandatory for the local
stakes/wards to participate, the local council (and how do they do that?) or the
LDS church?
If a ward does not meet its 'quota' or its 'donation' is unacceptable or not enough for the BSA, what happens? Who chastises them - BSA, the Church leadership or what? What happens if a ward decides it does not want to participate? Isn't a donation by its very name a voluntary offering, whatever the amount?
If a ward does not meet its 'quota' or its 'donation' is unacceptable or not enough for the BSA, what happens? Who chastises them - BSA, the Church leadership or what? What happens if a ward decides it does not want to participate? Isn't a donation by its very name a voluntary offering, whatever the amount?
Scouting a positive experience? | 2:41 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007
A number of posters have said what a positive experience scouting is. I have no
doubt that some have had and continue to have positive experiences. By and
large, however, those going through scouting are not experiencing ANYTHING close
to the ideal imagined by scouting's supporters. The problem is NOT due to
uncommitted local leaders. Repeatedly I've observed, for the good of the
boys, local leaders attempt to make a poor situation better. I have to imagine
that at some point the Church really does have to make the break with scouting.
There is just too much at stake.
BYU Prof2 | 2:41 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007
All those of you (who are LDS) who've indicated you are now withdrawing
your support of FOS need to let your bishop know of your intentions, and then be
prepared to surrender your recommend to them, as you apparently no longer
support the brethren --unconditionally-- as prophets, seers and revelators.
The brethren STILL support BSA and FOS, or did I miss some memo from SLC?
You had better believe that the Brethren know EXACTLY how BSA is run (financially, and otherwise.) The church employs specialists at HQ who regularly conduct financial feasibility studies, verifying that the church's support of Scouting/BSA is STILL the best bang for the buck, and which would cost the church MUCH more $$$ to run a similar/replacement program on its own. The brethren are NOT oblivious to all of these issues, as most of you seem to think. You are very, very blind to all the internal goings-on if you think the Brethren are not completely and totally "on top of" all these issues.
Let the brethren do their job, and stop counseling them how to run the Kingdom. You are treading on thin ice!
The brethren STILL support BSA and FOS, or did I miss some memo from SLC?
You had better believe that the Brethren know EXACTLY how BSA is run (financially, and otherwise.) The church employs specialists at HQ who regularly conduct financial feasibility studies, verifying that the church's support of Scouting/BSA is STILL the best bang for the buck, and which would cost the church MUCH more $$$ to run a similar/replacement program on its own. The brethren are NOT oblivious to all of these issues, as most of you seem to think. You are very, very blind to all the internal goings-on if you think the Brethren are not completely and totally "on top of" all these issues.
Let the brethren do their job, and stop counseling them how to run the Kingdom. You are treading on thin ice!
BSA - Not Inspired | 2:45 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007
I'm tired of the pious bloggers using the lame argument "the Prophet
supports it, so get with the program" (read WOW). It is just a great
program, but has nothing to do with the gospel.
Other than Canada, the Church does not use BSA outside the U.S. for its YM's program even though many countries have scouting. A Fantastic alternate program is used. Remember, there are more non-U.S. chuerch members.
BSA has become too bureaucratic, too expensive, it doesn't appeal to enough youth, and the Church already has a better program in place that is used in the rest of the world.
Unfortunately, having the Church pull out of BSA would really hurt a great program that historically has served so many so well. Maybe it is time to consider phasing out of BSA. I'm sure Church leaders have had discussions to this effect.
Other than Canada, the Church does not use BSA outside the U.S. for its YM's program even though many countries have scouting. A Fantastic alternate program is used. Remember, there are more non-U.S. chuerch members.
BSA has become too bureaucratic, too expensive, it doesn't appeal to enough youth, and the Church already has a better program in place that is used in the rest of the world.
Unfortunately, having the Church pull out of BSA would really hurt a great program that historically has served so many so well. Maybe it is time to consider phasing out of BSA. I'm sure Church leaders have had discussions to this effect.
FYI | 2:46 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007
You really cannot compel every YM to be registered. You need a parent's
signature (as well as the scout's signature) on the registration form.
George Fisher | 2:50 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007
To BYU Prof. you obviously have different questions than I did as a bishop.
Failing to support FOS will not jeopardize that I think in all things you are
too serious in this.
Full of yourself | 2:52 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007
Dear BYUProf, I just got my temple recommend and there was no question about my
support or lack of for the scouting program! Nothing. Zip. Zero.
FYI...alot of us actually think for ourselves and can make develop sound opinions and make judgements based on what we see.
FYI...alot of us actually think for ourselves and can make develop sound opinions and make judgements based on what we see.
Reorganize | 2:55 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007
There's no doubt that the scouting execs work hard long hours and are good
people. The question is, can the work be accomplished in a different manner. A
1/3 cut in salary would establish 3 decent positions to handle many of the
shortcomings people are writing about while redistributing work to a reasonable
level that allows a personal life. A 3-for-1 trade.
George Fisher | 2:57 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007
Thanks Morning News. I've printed a dozen copies of your story and emailed
a URL to all my friends who have been tapped by FOS over the years. I am posting
the story on the board at our local LDS ward and Stake Bldg. for all to see.
SE Idaho | 2:58 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007
Those who are trying to argue that it is inappropriate to criticize Scouting
because of its tie to the Church need to look deep inside their souls.
That same exact thought process led to the family of two boys molested at a scout camp here in Southeast Idaho to be driven from the area. After the molestation was reported, many in our area tried to hush the victims and their families -- arguing that it would hurt Scouting and that Scouting was church approved.
Of note, our local church leaders have expressly disclaimed that kind of defense.
Scouting is an organization with great ideas. Scouting today is in the grips of a group of greedy professional bureaucrats who are more concerned with their paycheck than the good of the boys. Look at the comments posted here by those who obviously benefit from these salaries. Sick. Sick.
That same exact thought process led to the family of two boys molested at a scout camp here in Southeast Idaho to be driven from the area. After the molestation was reported, many in our area tried to hush the victims and their families -- arguing that it would hurt Scouting and that Scouting was church approved.
Of note, our local church leaders have expressly disclaimed that kind of defense.
Scouting is an organization with great ideas. Scouting today is in the grips of a group of greedy professional bureaucrats who are more concerned with their paycheck than the good of the boys. Look at the comments posted here by those who obviously benefit from these salaries. Sick. Sick.
Wow! | 2:58 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007
My four boys are all eagle scouts and I attribute that to their mother and to
their scout master. I saw little help from the professional arm of scouting. I
did see the elaborate expensive building in the Phoenix area. I did see adults
receiving many many awards (get rid of the adult awards and save bundles of
money). Do we really need the professional scouters?
Dave | 3:00 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007
This is an insult to every volunteer leader worldwide.
I grumble every year I write the 'Friends of Scouting' check.
And to think I just made out a check from our Stake for over %5,000 for re-chartering. This on top of the 'Friends of Scouting' money.
Certainly the LDS church could find a better way.
I grumble every year I write the 'Friends of Scouting' check.
And to think I just made out a check from our Stake for over %5,000 for re-chartering. This on top of the 'Friends of Scouting' money.
Certainly the LDS church could find a better way.
Scouting the action | 3:02 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007
My sons aren't scouts, I am not a FOS and I still attend the temple.
Many of the young men in our ward lost their virginity on scout trips when I was a youngster.
Many of the young men in our ward lost their virginity on scout trips when I was a youngster.
George Fisher | 3:02 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007
BYProf2 -- The YW run just fine without executives making six figure salaries
and compensation packages. The YM would work just fine with the Priesthood and
Duty to God program. I had hoped it would replace BSA years ago when it was
introduced.
I've still had it | 3:04 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007
BYU prof, I think you're full of it. We have several very active families
who just don't do scouting. We respect that and work around it and thank
heaven not everyone in the ward has the guts to take that stand.
Of course I believe the leaders of the church know how the BSA is financed. But what bang for the buck are you talking about? What percentage of units attend a district camp? They do "support" FOS but very carefully. We get a letter from our stake president asking us to give. How about a letter from the First Presidency asking the members to open their wallets for FOS? Telling us it's our responsibility as active members of the Church to donate generously? If it's there, I guess I missed that memo.
I love how half of each bishopric training meeting with the stake is taken by the stake counsellor over scouting telling us that the BSA needs us to do this or that. Who's the tail and who's the dog in this scenario?
Of course I believe the leaders of the church know how the BSA is financed. But what bang for the buck are you talking about? What percentage of units attend a district camp? They do "support" FOS but very carefully. We get a letter from our stake president asking us to give. How about a letter from the First Presidency asking the members to open their wallets for FOS? Telling us it's our responsibility as active members of the Church to donate generously? If it's there, I guess I missed that memo.
I love how half of each bishopric training meeting with the stake is taken by the stake counsellor over scouting telling us that the BSA needs us to do this or that. Who's the tail and who's the dog in this scenario?
To BYU Prof | 3:05 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007
choosing whether or not to participate in FOS does not indicate sustaining of
the brethren. Last time I checked participation in FOS had not yet reached
"commandment" status.
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What other program can better insire our youth to better serve God, Country, and fellow man?
For the Scouting program to work at any level, it requrires leaders with testimony, training, tenure and time. If you are in or have in the past been in a Scouting program that was not what you expected, the leaders were likely lacking in one, or more, of these areas.
Sure the article makes the salaries sound like the dark side of Scouting. I for one will continue to support Scouting in any way I can, including Friends of Scouting. If you want to complain about value for your money, just look at the price of the Christmas toys they are advertising. The Scouting experience will last a lifetime. How long will the toys last?