Reader comments
Scouts may be thrifty, but some leaders are well paid
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BYU Prof | 1:53 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
Kudos for this article. Count me among the fathers of boys in the church just
counting down the days until the Church jettisons the pretentious ritual and
bureaucratic nonsense of scouts and focuses instead on the sensible,
streamlined, and gospel-centered Duty to God program. Also, even though
I've only got sons, it infuriates me that the YM program is not parallel
with the YW program in the funding that it gets and the attention that it
receives. I don't doubt that Scouts is great for some boys, but it's
not for mine. They have talents and healthy interests that Scouts just
doesn't accommodate. And if my boys don't have good enough credentials
to get a good job without "Eagle Scout" on their resume, they
don't deserve the job.
What is being bashed here? | 4:17 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
I see the anger - WOW....
Is the anger at the Scout organization? The pay? Or is that simply a reason to unload?
Is the anger at the church because the church presidency CHOSE Scouts in 1913 as their youth organization for YM?
Is the anger at the local wards? Because the bishops call Scout leaders and then transfer them out before they even become engaged with the PM? (Read ON MY HONOR - Deseret sells it)
Coupled with the previous example - Is the anger at the church because, while less than 17% of the boys in Scouting come from the wards, more than 50% of the serious injuries and fatalities come from LDS troops (Check with the Young Mens Presidency - that office published the figures) becuase the called leaders CHOOSE to ignore safety training, program training and the other relevant rules (including youth protection from abuse)
Is the anger at the Scout organization? The pay? Or is that simply a reason to unload?
Is the anger at the church because the church presidency CHOSE Scouts in 1913 as their youth organization for YM?
Is the anger at the local wards? Because the bishops call Scout leaders and then transfer them out before they even become engaged with the PM? (Read ON MY HONOR - Deseret sells it)
Coupled with the previous example - Is the anger at the church because, while less than 17% of the boys in Scouting come from the wards, more than 50% of the serious injuries and fatalities come from LDS troops (Check with the Young Mens Presidency - that office published the figures) becuase the called leaders CHOOSE to ignore safety training, program training and the other relevant rules (including youth protection from abuse)
Comments continue below
Park City Resident | 4:35 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
Time for the LDS Church to pull out of scouting and start their own program.
single mom | 6:33 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
I don't live in Utah, but had three sons in scouting and a grandson just
old enough to join now. It was always a struggle for me to buy uniforms, books,
camping equipment and fees. My boys learned a lot from scouting and two are
still involved as adults. One son is a Fire Captain , the other the US Air
Force and use their "spare" time, volunteer to help youth. Missouri
doesn't have FOS and I would not donate if they did. YW programs are not as
well funded and parents slip extra cash to those running the ward programs. The
LDS leadership need to demand an audit, look to changing YM programs and make
the BSA programs optional. Life skills are good, so is having fun. Foil
dinners teach great life lessons. My girls were in GS but liked YM much more.
Get involved and change it from ground up. Revolution hurts everyone and
benefits none. Thanks to DMN for reporting this story.
Just Me | 6:43 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
I don't know if this has been said but I would be willing to bet that FOS
raises no more than 40% of these council's budget. They are doing so much
more fundraising than just FOS. Budgets are available for anyone to see and
every unit can send its representative to board meetings where he has a vote on
these issues.
Anonymous | 6:46 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
To: Mr. Most of You are off Base,
Yes, we do have a program that could replace scouting. It's called Duty to God. We could expand the program to incorporate some of the better elements of scouting. Mutual nights activities could be used for Duty to God, service, career night, character development and combined activies with the Young Women.
Yes, we do have a program that could replace scouting. It's called Duty to God. We could expand the program to incorporate some of the better elements of scouting. Mutual nights activities could be used for Duty to God, service, career night, character development and combined activies with the Young Women.
Where should anger be? | 6:56 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
There is anger here.
Is the anger about the high salary? The salary is determined by the LOCAL COUNCIL VOUNTEERS who serve on the Council Executive Board. Some of these are LDS Ward and Stake leaders who provide direction to the council.
Is anger at Church leadership for electing BSA as the youth program �a Boy Scout program within the Church that is a significant departure from the programs in non-LDS troops nationwide.
Is this venting (without appearing to directly challenge the Ward and Stake leadership) at the Bishops who call and then remove scout leaders so fast that they never can get an effective Scouting program rolling? At Deseret we have a book that describes this � On My Honor: A Guide to Scouting in the Church by Thane Packer.
Is it because Scout Troops in the Church are not as safe for the boys as troops led by non-LDS groups? President Charles Dahlquist�s office � Church YN account for about 17% of boys in Scouting, yet LDS troops account for more than 50% of serious injuries and deaths of Scouts. Why? Again, President Dahlquist: Not taking and applying training, not following Scouting rules and not demonstrating common sense.
Is the anger about the high salary? The salary is determined by the LOCAL COUNCIL VOUNTEERS who serve on the Council Executive Board. Some of these are LDS Ward and Stake leaders who provide direction to the council.
Is anger at Church leadership for electing BSA as the youth program �a Boy Scout program within the Church that is a significant departure from the programs in non-LDS troops nationwide.
Is this venting (without appearing to directly challenge the Ward and Stake leadership) at the Bishops who call and then remove scout leaders so fast that they never can get an effective Scouting program rolling? At Deseret we have a book that describes this � On My Honor: A Guide to Scouting in the Church by Thane Packer.
Is it because Scout Troops in the Church are not as safe for the boys as troops led by non-LDS groups? President Charles Dahlquist�s office � Church YN account for about 17% of boys in Scouting, yet LDS troops account for more than 50% of serious injuries and deaths of Scouts. Why? Again, President Dahlquist: Not taking and applying training, not following Scouting rules and not demonstrating common sense.
Eric | 6:59 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
It does not matter who gets paid what for being a professional scouter. What is
most important is the cost/benefit ratio for the involved boys. All of my three
boys achieved their Eagle Scout rank. As a scout, I wished that I had achieved
this rank. Never the less, as a church leader, I am seeing that scouting is
becoming less and less relevant to the spiritual development for our boys.
When Elder/Pres Eyring presided at one of our stake conferences as few years ago, he said that President Hinckley is for dropping Scouting because of its cost/benefit ratio and President Monson is for it retention.
If I had a vote, I would cease to have it a required arm of the church run by the wards. If the church is going to continue sponsoring scouting, let it be a function of the stake young men�s presidencies if the stake chooses to have a scouting arm at all, with participation solely by choice for the boys and with parent volunteers participating by choice and not by calling. With this, scouting would again be fun for those involved and not an uncompensated drudgery as it now often is.
When Elder/Pres Eyring presided at one of our stake conferences as few years ago, he said that President Hinckley is for dropping Scouting because of its cost/benefit ratio and President Monson is for it retention.
If I had a vote, I would cease to have it a required arm of the church run by the wards. If the church is going to continue sponsoring scouting, let it be a function of the stake young men�s presidencies if the stake chooses to have a scouting arm at all, with participation solely by choice for the boys and with parent volunteers participating by choice and not by calling. With this, scouting would again be fun for those involved and not an uncompensated drudgery as it now often is.
Give me a break | 7:03 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
To say that the scouting program is the best venue to provide the boys with a
moral compass is just plain silly. Half the boys in my ward that got their
Eagles were partiers. Yes, that's right 4 of 8 were drinking beer and
smoking pot on a regular basis. One even served some jail time. Open your eyes
folks.
I'm all for Duty to God.
I'm all for Duty to God.
Suzyk | 7:11 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
My hope is that the LDS Church will back out of the scouting program. They have
done a lot of good in years past but with all the perverts out there and the
church continues involvement the chances are getting bigger it could be a
downfall. Just reading the comments, it is obvious only the big money makers
are for scouting. It's not for the boys and hasn't been for a long
time...let's be honest here...it's the scout leaders who should be
paid not the executives. They don't have any personal involvement with the
boys...just make sure they get their fat paychecks...Friends of Scouting is a
farce..we hated it...what used to be "good" for the boys is only
"good" for the greedy executives. We no longer support it..I worked
for the BSA in Provo and back then they were not raking in those kind of funds.
Pres. Benson was right..GREED is the root of evil and the BSA have made this
true.
To BB 3:28 p.m. Nov. 11, 2007 | 7:12 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
To BB (his comment below) who spent so much time in a scouting job. I try my
very hardest to avoid supporting organizations that treat their employees like
this. The labor unions of America worked long and hard to prevent this sort of
oppression.
"I spent three years as a professional Scouter. I loved the job, but had no personal life. I often worked from 7:00 in the morning until 11:00 at night, sometimes six or seven days in a week. I was responsible for every aspect of the program within my district. I recruited boys and leaders, did training, organized Scout and day camps, supervised district leadership, and much more. I left because I was having to make too many sacrifices of family and personal time...."
"I spent three years as a professional Scouter. I loved the job, but had no personal life. I often worked from 7:00 in the morning until 11:00 at night, sometimes six or seven days in a week. I was responsible for every aspect of the program within my district. I recruited boys and leaders, did training, organized Scout and day camps, supervised district leadership, and much more. I left because I was having to make too many sacrifices of family and personal time...."
To Andy 11:18 p.m. Nov. 11 | 7:17 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
Your comments use a technique called "attacking the messenger." Using
this technique usually means that you do not like the information that was given
but cannot actually refute the information. Lawyers use this technique.
"Lee, you and Joe have done a great disservice to the community and to a very worthwhile program. You do not offer any alternatives, and your tone is envious, if anything."
"Lee, you and Joe have done a great disservice to the community and to a very worthwhile program. You do not offer any alternatives, and your tone is envious, if anything."
scouting vs football | 7:21 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
I buy football tickets for entertainment and feel that I get my money's
worth.
I donate to scouting to benefit the boys, not to pad a professional scouters $1 million salary.
Dont confuse BYU football with friends of scouting, they're two entirely different subjects and purposes.
I donate to scouting to benefit the boys, not to pad a professional scouters $1 million salary.
Dont confuse BYU football with friends of scouting, they're two entirely different subjects and purposes.
Norman Barber | 7:31 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
I am in favor of having the parents who are of Scout age to pay the way for
their children toi be in the Scout program. I think the Young women and the
young program of the church can do to develop the youth of the church.
In our area the church purchased 4000 acres Cinnomon Creek which was purchsed by six stakes in the Cache Valley district. The cost was 3 million dollars. This is not used as it should be. This is a gated and locked area for entrance. The area was developed for all of the Scouts, young women and young men to use. I think the Church could devlop its own scouting program much cheaper.
I am really upset to hear about the high salary paid to these Scout leaders. The fringe benefits also that these leaders get. I believe in scouting but, i think salaries need to be adjusted.
In our area the church purchased 4000 acres Cinnomon Creek which was purchsed by six stakes in the Cache Valley district. The cost was 3 million dollars. This is not used as it should be. This is a gated and locked area for entrance. The area was developed for all of the Scouts, young women and young men to use. I think the Church could devlop its own scouting program much cheaper.
I am really upset to hear about the high salary paid to these Scout leaders. The fringe benefits also that these leaders get. I believe in scouting but, i think salaries need to be adjusted.
Engton | 7:34 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
As a Scoutmaster, after I took time to take some Scouts around to gather Friends
of Scouting funds for the first time, I decided I would not do it again, because
I knew it was just paying salaries. This article confirms my stance. Having
said that, I do see the benefits of the Scouting program (for those young men
who have a desire to be involved). I also see the benefits of the Duty to God
program. And I know those two programs are very similar. The LDS church will
eventually choose the right.
East Coast | 7:47 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
It is ALWAYS a good idea to look into an organization before giving them money.
Non profits have to file a tax form each year called a 990. You can look them up
online.
I have looked at many 990s and based on that information, my family situation, and my own level of comfort with different factors which I will not discuss in detail, I will support the Ronald McDonald House. I will not support the PTA. I will support our volunteer fire department. I will not support the Coalition of Police and Sheriffs. I will support the Congenital Heart Information Network. I will not support the American Heart Association.
The list could go on. Remember that these are my personal decisions and not entirely based on the 990.
You can look up non-profits on something like Charity Navigator. You can look up 990s too. From a quick search, it doesn't seem like the Boy Scouts are out of line with other non profits in the US. For example, some of the employees of the Children's Miracle Networks (also in Utah and connected to the Osmond family) are earning $300K or $400K a year.
I have looked at many 990s and based on that information, my family situation, and my own level of comfort with different factors which I will not discuss in detail, I will support the Ronald McDonald House. I will not support the PTA. I will support our volunteer fire department. I will not support the Coalition of Police and Sheriffs. I will support the Congenital Heart Information Network. I will not support the American Heart Association.
The list could go on. Remember that these are my personal decisions and not entirely based on the 990.
You can look up non-profits on something like Charity Navigator. You can look up 990s too. From a quick search, it doesn't seem like the Boy Scouts are out of line with other non profits in the US. For example, some of the employees of the Children's Miracle Networks (also in Utah and connected to the Osmond family) are earning $300K or $400K a year.
Zion Prospereth! | 7:49 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
So if the Church continues to support Friends of Scouting after this, what is
your response going to be? Are you all going to tell the First Presidency to
get lost? I didn't head up our ward's FOS drive this year because I
like it, but because I was asked to.
Secondly, the market place has established these scouting salaries, as is well documented in the article. That doesn't mean it is fair (I know I'm a teacher), but it does mean you can't change it. Fire Moore and you'll have to pay the same to replace him. Not fair, just so.
Secondly, the market place has established these scouting salaries, as is well documented in the article. That doesn't mean it is fair (I know I'm a teacher), but it does mean you can't change it. Fire Moore and you'll have to pay the same to replace him. Not fair, just so.
sad heart | 7:48 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
Not one eagle scout award is worth the price that has been paid, by the parents
of boys killed or hurt on scout activities. My son was hurt. It changed all of
us for ever. The scout program did nothing to help our son. I talked to
everyone at the council and they did nothing.Did not care. Only the LDS church
helped us and our son. It is not what it seems. Please, please move away from
BSA.
BSA is a lost Cause | 7:55 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
I am an Eagle Scout an I do owe alot to Scouting, However I have found it
disturbing to see how little of the money a ward or parents for that matter
donate to scouting actually comes back to them. It is sad to see the thousands
of dollars raised in the wards go to headquarters and then have it still cost an
arm an a leg to go to an organized camp. the halmark of a good Non-for-profit is
how much money it gets back to the lowest levels of the organization. In this
case the scouts themselves. Guess what parents, With scouting its not making it
back to your kid! Whats worse is the scouting program is bording on becoming
obsolete as Club sports, School activites, etc take up more of our kids time. We
need a program like Scouting to teach our young men + women good values, but
such a program must be appealing and supportive to those who would stand to
benifit. Scouting has lost that appeal and obviously is not supporting kids the
way it should be. Becoming an Eagle scout has become too easy and employers are
aware of that.
Another Eagle benefit | 8:02 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
The Navy, and probably other US military as well,
start an enlistee two pay grades higher when he has his Eagle.
start an enlistee two pay grades higher when he has his Eagle.
A reluctant BSA Supporter | 8:25 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
While I was not aware of the excessive salaries for the professional scouters, I
have been suspect of the costs of the program for a long time. As a former
Bishop outside of Utah, I have found the Scouting program to be very expensive
to try and manage within the church budget. In addition, it does not meet the
needs of all the boys. I could write a dissertation on the challenges I have
seen with trying to run a scouting program in the church outside of Utah where
the parental and financial support are lacking. I have three boys and my wife
and I both really wish the LDS Church would drop the program and work on Faith
in God and Duty to God only. It would save a ton of money and I think it would
be more effective for the boys. I am now serving in a Ward YM Presidency and
trying to run two programs (Scouting & Duty to God) certainly does not
follow Elder Oaks� admonition to
�simplify�.
Can't afford FoS | 8:30 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
My donation limit is reached.
I have only so much to give, and the donations I plan to make for Billy Joel ($95), Blue Man Group ($85), Harlem Globetrotters ($110), The Cure ($50), and Mannheim Steamroller ($88) might even keep me from donating to the Jazz a few times this year.
Those guys need the money. They really earn their pay.
Sorry, no more money for Scouting.
I have only so much to give, and the donations I plan to make for Billy Joel ($95), Blue Man Group ($85), Harlem Globetrotters ($110), The Cure ($50), and Mannheim Steamroller ($88) might even keep me from donating to the Jazz a few times this year.
Those guys need the money. They really earn their pay.
Sorry, no more money for Scouting.
Darren | 8:31 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
I've read the article regarding Scout Executive pay and I'm stunned at
the reader responses. Let me try to inject some sanity back into the
dialogue:
1. Do you want the Boy Scouts to be run like a government agency? Have you been to the DMV or Post Office lately? You get what you pay for.
2. $250,000 for a seasoned executive at ANY mid-size company ANYWHERE in America is nothing. You should leave Utah occasionally.
3. $250k working 70 hours a week = $70/hour. Huh? We're entrusting the well-being of an essential organization and the lives of thousands of youths to a guy that makes $70/hour? I say give him a raise.
4. I have worked with numerous Scout Executives in California councils and have been impressed that the BSA has actually been able to attract and retain talented people. The pay is a part of that, but only a part.
5. The LDS Church pays registration and many fees and a small Friends of Scouting donation is onerous?
Scouting was never more relevant than it is today. If you think Scouting has ever been about knots and camping, you are sorely mistaken.
1. Do you want the Boy Scouts to be run like a government agency? Have you been to the DMV or Post Office lately? You get what you pay for.
2. $250,000 for a seasoned executive at ANY mid-size company ANYWHERE in America is nothing. You should leave Utah occasionally.
3. $250k working 70 hours a week = $70/hour. Huh? We're entrusting the well-being of an essential organization and the lives of thousands of youths to a guy that makes $70/hour? I say give him a raise.
4. I have worked with numerous Scout Executives in California councils and have been impressed that the BSA has actually been able to attract and retain talented people. The pay is a part of that, but only a part.
5. The LDS Church pays registration and many fees and a small Friends of Scouting donation is onerous?
Scouting was never more relevant than it is today. If you think Scouting has ever been about knots and camping, you are sorely mistaken.
CONCERNED | 8:40 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
My first impression of the article was one of shock..then frustration for a way
to make the situation better. It just seems the "focus" is not on the
young men as much as it used to be. Still, many dedicate long hours and days for
the benefit of helping boys learn many things. I was always under the
impression the FOS was for the benefit of the local troops, not for the
outlandish salaries of the execs. Give them half of what they are being paid and
we should see where their dedication really is. I believe the Church could
independtly run a program better and the boys would learn more and there would
not be executive salaries to pay. I read every comment.I don't support FOS
anymore because of the ungrateful attitude of the ward I was in. No matter what
you donated they asked for more and put much pressure on it. I don't
believe the Church is aware of the way pressure is put on members for this
program, if they were I know they would make changes to improve it. FOS is not a
positive experience for many. That is sad!!
Comment | 8:44 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
Sacrifice brings blessings. I'll continue to follow the Prophet and the
Church's support of the Boy Scouts of America....until there is a change.
But, until then...I'd better start re-thinking my desire to become a farmer
and start working at the BSA. "Working" only 60-80 hours a week for
that salary is a breeze. I'd bet they even get most Sundays off. Thanks
DesNews for the eye-opening career opportunities available at the various
Councils of the BSA.
arc | 8:45 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
As the article states 83% of the money received for the GSLC goes to
programs/services. if you want to know where the money goes, go the the gslc-bsa
website.
32% of all money comes from the FOS drive. 40.5% from camp fees, etc. 3% from the United way. 16% from special events and fundraising, 7% from interest and misc.
In the past they had a chart as to where the money went, they have a list only. They need a chart yesterday.
Everything looks great, except when you figure that Paul gets 3% of the total revenue. Add the other professional scouters and you get about 20% or 1/5.
Scouting is good. We should help support it. As I mentioned above, I donated after reading this article. They have these really cool patches....
Paul's salary is out of line. It seems when I was a charter rep, I was invited to a meeting to discuss things like this. I am sure Paul will not be getting a raise. He would be smart to give 1/2 of his salary back, or resign. He probably can't give 1/2 back, so we need someone else. The other two councils..
32% of all money comes from the FOS drive. 40.5% from camp fees, etc. 3% from the United way. 16% from special events and fundraising, 7% from interest and misc.
In the past they had a chart as to where the money went, they have a list only. They need a chart yesterday.
Everything looks great, except when you figure that Paul gets 3% of the total revenue. Add the other professional scouters and you get about 20% or 1/5.
Scouting is good. We should help support it. As I mentioned above, I donated after reading this article. They have these really cool patches....
Paul's salary is out of line. It seems when I was a charter rep, I was invited to a meeting to discuss things like this. I am sure Paul will not be getting a raise. He would be smart to give 1/2 of his salary back, or resign. He probably can't give 1/2 back, so we need someone else. The other two councils..
Mark | 8:50 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
The answer is simple: Dump Scouting!
There is NO empirical evidence that Scouting is worth this much money.
Can't religious communities and charitable organizations (who often sponsor troops) do a better job on their own?
Do we really need that "Eagle" badge (protected by copyright, of course) to denote that we've done a great job to raise our sons?
Can't fathers actually find time to spend with their own sons (and their sons' friends) rather than having to be "called" to go camping?
There is NO empirical evidence that Scouting is worth this much money.
Can't religious communities and charitable organizations (who often sponsor troops) do a better job on their own?
Do we really need that "Eagle" badge (protected by copyright, of course) to denote that we've done a great job to raise our sons?
Can't fathers actually find time to spend with their own sons (and their sons' friends) rather than having to be "called" to go camping?
bob | 8:59 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
STOP the greedy coorporate coruption! What a scam. I love scouting but hate
the greedy theft of scout executives. They care more about having the newest
mercedes than the children they are suppose to serve. I am anxiously awaiting a
new scouting program. Scouting is about service not greed. I emailed my local
scouting office to let them know my disapproval of these salaries. I was a scout
many years ago in Canada (70's). We used to do drives to collect pop
bottles and junk to resell to make money for tents, supplies and patches. We
never begged for money just worked our butts off. It was hard work and we felt
like we earned our next camp. I hope the coruption in scouting salaries is
fixed or they all get fired! I think it is robbing from the poor to give to the
rich. PS I LOVE SCOUTS!
Keith | 9:02 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
I have been in scouting for 20 years; I like scouting and what it can do for a
young man, I have seen young men do great things, and for that reason I will
stay in scouting and help support it. I have always wondered just what my money
went to. I was sure it was not going to the boys, so some years ago I stopped
giving to the Friends of Scouting and will never give again. Now I what until
the friends of scouting drive is over and give my money directly to the troop, I
now see what my money goes for, tents, gas, food and other equipment.
For the good of the YM | 9:10 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
The spiritual strength of YM in the Church a continual concern. We should be
doing all we can to support and sustain each and every young man. It is a
critical time in their life and in many areas of the world (including Utah), it
is clear that we need to do more in terms of helping them develop spiritually
and in all other aspects of life.
Scouting benefits a small minority of youth and parents. Those who are not interested (a large majority) in tying knots and getting merit badges, are just as valuable as those who are, despite having different interests. They should not be made to feel that spiritual development and success in life is equated to success in scouting.
We are losing too many young men because of the focus on scouting. I can't wait until the ties between scouting and the Church are abolished.
Scouting benefits a small minority of youth and parents. Those who are not interested (a large majority) in tying knots and getting merit badges, are just as valuable as those who are, despite having different interests. They should not be made to feel that spiritual development and success in life is equated to success in scouting.
We are losing too many young men because of the focus on scouting. I can't wait until the ties between scouting and the Church are abolished.
Recently retired fund raiser | 9:22 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
Never again. As a scoutmaster if I had the friends of scouting money to use for
the local boys I could overcome the number one obstacle to LDS youth programs,
MONEY! The boys deserve better! They are where the money should be spent!
What did you expect? | 9:24 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
My experience with non-profits, especially those not reporting financials, is
that financial misuse is the norm. When people appropriate themselves a salary
they will do so at the highest level they think they can get away with. Human
nature. Lack of financial transparency practically BEGS for misuse.
It is an interesting observation, having lived as long as I have and seen how the world really works, to note that "executive type" people tend to see their contribution to an effort as indispensable, invaluable and therefore worthy of what most of us would view as very selfish levels of compensation. The reality is that every person who participates in our economy has value. Imagine if the garbage did not get collected for a couple of weeks...the job that the garbage collector does is actually pretty important, but we generally don't view those people as being important, do we? I worked for a privatly held company at one time. The CFO and I were friends. He SHOWED me what the owner disbursed for year end bonuses. The General Manager had total discretion to "share" the bonuses with employees or keep all of it himself. Guess what he did? Kept it all.
It is an interesting observation, having lived as long as I have and seen how the world really works, to note that "executive type" people tend to see their contribution to an effort as indispensable, invaluable and therefore worthy of what most of us would view as very selfish levels of compensation. The reality is that every person who participates in our economy has value. Imagine if the garbage did not get collected for a couple of weeks...the job that the garbage collector does is actually pretty important, but we generally don't view those people as being important, do we? I worked for a privatly held company at one time. The CFO and I were friends. He SHOWED me what the owner disbursed for year end bonuses. The General Manager had total discretion to "share" the bonuses with employees or keep all of it himself. Guess what he did? Kept it all.
Scoutyscout | 9:24 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
I think the disconnect is between the systems of the LDS Church and the BSA. I
think we've all experienced berating by professional scouts for the conduct
of LDS scouts, LDS scout leaders and our poor training, and so forth. While on
my Order of the Arrow ordeal, two adults were talking (but shouldn't have
been) about how the LDS scout act like they own the camp. This was outside of
Utah. Lots more stories like that personally.
Now that I'm older, I realize that we practically did own the camp, and would probably buy the thing if we pulled out of scouting. Perhaps we engender resentment?
Part of it comes, I think, from the nature of our troops. Other troops consist of scouts eager to be there, whereas ours include everybody. If our program were truly voluntary rather than a part of the YM program, executive salary would not even be an issue. But that disconnect is no reason to abandon the relationship. The real issue is whether scouting is serving its purposes. Unless someone entitled to that revelation decides to change, there is a lot of good from the relationship with scouting, despite the disconnect between organizations.
Now that I'm older, I realize that we practically did own the camp, and would probably buy the thing if we pulled out of scouting. Perhaps we engender resentment?
Part of it comes, I think, from the nature of our troops. Other troops consist of scouts eager to be there, whereas ours include everybody. If our program were truly voluntary rather than a part of the YM program, executive salary would not even be an issue. But that disconnect is no reason to abandon the relationship. The real issue is whether scouting is serving its purposes. Unless someone entitled to that revelation decides to change, there is a lot of good from the relationship with scouting, despite the disconnect between organizations.
Iley | 9:25 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
This is rediculous. I worked for Scouting as a Scoutmaster, Unit and Asst
District Commissioner, Trainer, Council Webmaster, and other positions.
Throughout all this time, I was told how little Scouting had and GAVE THOUSANDS
of DOLLARS to Scouting as an endowment and Friends of Scouting as I knew that
many Scouting units/members could not afford uniforms, books, camping, etc. I
left Scouting after being told that the ONLY GOOD LEADER are Eagle Scouts. To
now read this gives me another reason for not going back to Scouting. I love
the program, but this is insane. VOLUNTEERS are giving up time and MONEY so
that executives can rich, that is plain old hypocrisy. Scouting is about
teaching morality and leading through example. This is a POOR example at best.
B | 9:25 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
Many of you are unreal. This program takes a lot of work to run and these top
executives put in many hours beyond the call of duty. So tate away friends of
scouting money because these people work hard for their livings. And if you
don't want your kids involved in such a good program that can make these
young boys into great men then don't let them attend and request they not
be registered. The don't have to be and you don't have to accept a
calling, but ask yourself this - is that your attitude towards them attending
primary and mutual - the prophet see it as important as the others. Get real -
this is a full time job - their living don't they deserve to make a decent
one as much as anyone else in another profession. Would you turn that salary
down if it was you doing the work?
Norman Jensen | 9:30 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
30 years and counting as a volunteer scouter.
I have concerns, but not with the Scout program. The Scouting program is essential to teaching vital skills, values, and lessons. To accomplish these teachings, we need leaders doing the program as outlined in Scouting, teaching boys responsibilities. That requires training. In posted comments about disinterested boys, as I once heard someone say,'we don't have a boy problem, we have a leader problem'. When I say leader, I refer to the team of support that should exist.
I don't know any other program our boys could be in that would teach every boy these needed important values, and have fun doing it. In scouting, every boy is a winner if, the program is run properly.
Dispite my concerns, I have and will continue to support scouting. Those that have voiced their non support of FOS, I invite you to find another organization or program that can teach our youth these values, and then give your time and donations there, because these young men need an excellent program, like Scouting. God bless all the great scouters.
I have concerns, but not with the Scout program. The Scouting program is essential to teaching vital skills, values, and lessons. To accomplish these teachings, we need leaders doing the program as outlined in Scouting, teaching boys responsibilities. That requires training. In posted comments about disinterested boys, as I once heard someone say,'we don't have a boy problem, we have a leader problem'. When I say leader, I refer to the team of support that should exist.
I don't know any other program our boys could be in that would teach every boy these needed important values, and have fun doing it. In scouting, every boy is a winner if, the program is run properly.
Dispite my concerns, I have and will continue to support scouting. Those that have voiced their non support of FOS, I invite you to find another organization or program that can teach our youth these values, and then give your time and donations there, because these young men need an excellent program, like Scouting. God bless all the great scouters.
me | 9:34 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
I feel that those kind of wages are absurb. To think that the boys and their
parents and leaders have to beg for money so that our boys can be chartered thru
LDS church is outragious!!
Non-scouter | 9:35 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
Huh? Does this issue really merit this long of an article, which consists mostly
circular hand-wringing and rehash? This is much ado about nothing. Although
I'm not involved in scouting, it seems clear to me from the article that
the salaries are justified, they are independently reviewed and apparently on a
par with other councils and other youth organizations, given the increased level
of work and responsibility involved here. I am acquainted with one professional
scouter who recently left because the demands of the profession outweighed the
monetary benefit. He constantly worked evenings and weekends and had to travel
quite a bit. His young family saw little of him. Trust me, those who stay in
this profession don't do it for the money--they do it for love of the boys
with whom they work. The per hour pay doesn't amount to much. On the flip
side, every professional scouter I've ever known has been an extremely
able, competent executive, who could easily outearn their scout salary in the
private sector.
Matt | 9:37 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
Here's an idea. I have known about these high salaries and mismanagment of
funds for some time now and have therefore not given to FOS for the last three
years. Here's what I do instead. When the local unit is doing their
fundraiser, I double or triple the suggested donation amount. That way all of
my donation goes directly to the local unit which is where the money is really
needed to pay for the high cost of camps, awards, and other activities.
THOU SHALT NOT COVET | 9:40 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
GIVE SCOUT EXEC'S RAISES! Ask anyone who actually works with them.
All the whining armchair parents and leaders out there who question the value of scouting or state that scouting is not interesting or irrelevant for their kids have only themselves to blame.
All you parents who are quick to satisfy your child's wants for the next X-box or playstaion console/game should not find it at all surprising that a knot tying demo can't keep your 12-year-old's attention for more than 30 seconds. YOU HAVE CONDITIONED THE KIDS TO BE THAT WAY!
Teach your kid the value of patience, hard work and self denial (something you must have missed out on)and you'll find a kid that finds scouting fun and relevant at least until they turn 15, by then you have created enough of a foundation that if the youth wanders away they will at least recognize the "familiar spirit" instilled by the principles of scouting and will want to make changes in their lives to get it back.Principles of scouting resonate with all youth to one extent or another. You can't pay enough money into a program like that.
All the whining armchair parents and leaders out there who question the value of scouting or state that scouting is not interesting or irrelevant for their kids have only themselves to blame.
All you parents who are quick to satisfy your child's wants for the next X-box or playstaion console/game should not find it at all surprising that a knot tying demo can't keep your 12-year-old's attention for more than 30 seconds. YOU HAVE CONDITIONED THE KIDS TO BE THAT WAY!
Teach your kid the value of patience, hard work and self denial (something you must have missed out on)and you'll find a kid that finds scouting fun and relevant at least until they turn 15, by then you have created enough of a foundation that if the youth wanders away they will at least recognize the "familiar spirit" instilled by the principles of scouting and will want to make changes in their lives to get it back.Principles of scouting resonate with all youth to one extent or another. You can't pay enough money into a program like that.
I'm going to double my FOS Gift | 9:47 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
I know BSA execs and their hours worked.
Those writing these hateful comments about their salaries could not keep up with their hours worked, time away from home, and personal sacrifices to create an environment for kids to blossom.
Those writing these hateful comments about their salaries could not keep up with their hours worked, time away from home, and personal sacrifices to create an environment for kids to blossom.
Nehor says... | 9:53 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
Alma 1:3 And he had gone about among the people, preaching to them that which he
termed to be the word of God, bearing down against the church; declaring unto
the people that every priest and teacher ought to become popular; and they ought
not to labor with their hands, but that they ought to be supported by the
people.
I know that's probably a misapplication of scripture, but the real issue is why we can't run a youth program based entirely upon volunteerism, like the rest of the church programs. The money confuses everything.
I know that's probably a misapplication of scripture, but the real issue is why we can't run a youth program based entirely upon volunteerism, like the rest of the church programs. The money confuses everything.
Scouter B | 10:01 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
One of the major problems is the way the LDS church conducts the Scouting
program, with high turnover of volunteer leaders because they are
"called" and requiring all boys to join. And then their is the way
they raise the funds. Scouting in 99% of the country is not operated this
way.
Remember, each local Scout council is a separate corporation run by a locally elected board. Address you concerns to them as well as the church.
As a former "professional scouter" I can say that many years my family qualifed for food stamps.
Remember, each local Scout council is a separate corporation run by a locally elected board. Address you concerns to them as well as the church.
As a former "professional scouter" I can say that many years my family qualifed for food stamps.
A Real Scouter | 10:03 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
While everyone is complaining, those Scout Executives and other professional
employees are working to improve the lives of youth. There is no other
profession that does so much for the youth of America. Friends of Scouting is a
donation and last time I checked if you don't want to donate you don't
have to. On the other hand you don't have much choice when it comes to
paying taxes or your bills and plenty of people are paid from that, only their
job does not compare to Scout Professionals. Only those who are poorly educated
would believe all the negative statements in this article. Don't be the
one that believes everything they hear, do some research and find out the whole
story.
To Thou Shalt Not Covet | 10:09 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
I am very divided in my support of the scouting program. I know professional
scouters, scout leaders within the church, the boys, their parents. We live
outside the Mormon Belt and many of us are making high professional salaries and
know what it takes to work in business or non-profits. Regardless of what the
scout leaders are paid (which in my opinion is in line with other non profits) I
realize that there are problems with the scout program and a lot of anger. This
discussion reveals what was already simmering and just gave people the
"last straw." The boys in our ward are very active in many different
endeavors and it seems like the ones that are more into video games are also the
ones who are more into scouting.
And talking about the "familiar spirit" of scouting (usually a term used with witchcraft and secret societies) gives me pause in relation to scouting...What are they doing in those pack meetings?!?
I also resent your insinuation that if anyone is not enthusiastic about scouting, they are not teaching their children the values of work, patience, and self denial. BSA does not have a patent on those virtues.
And talking about the "familiar spirit" of scouting (usually a term used with witchcraft and secret societies) gives me pause in relation to scouting...What are they doing in those pack meetings?!?
I also resent your insinuation that if anyone is not enthusiastic about scouting, they are not teaching their children the values of work, patience, and self denial. BSA does not have a patent on those virtues.
I've had enough | 10:11 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
For those saying we don't support the prophet if we don't support FOS,
you might want to know that the Church "Handbook" says the FOS drive
is separate and "voluntary" from other fundraisers for the youth. If
the Prophet wants supporting it to be part of our support of him, let's
hear it from him at general conference or in a First Presidency Ensign message.
I'm an Eagle Scout, former scoutmaster, and bishopric counsellor over
scouts. Turned my money in last night. Three more years to go. That's how
I'm counting my time.
Virgil | 10:11 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
I think the article was well balanced. I don't think it was intended as a
negative for BSA. It was a statement of facts. Those who see it as a negative
saw Boy Scouts negatively to begin with. As for the LDS church, the problem is
that you call men and women to those positions in Scouting. Many simply
don't care. They just fill the position. That is not the fault of BSA.
So, let's say we eliminate scouting from church programs. Now what kind of
a program are you going to replace it with? How are you going to accomplish the
same goals with those young men with out scouting? I have been a Scoutmaster,
had boys in Scouting with good and bad experiences, and collected Friends of
Scouting (which I do not like doing). The problem is not BSA, the professionals
work their tails off, it is the leaders who just fill the calling and throw out
a basketball every week. The potential is there, but it is not being used.
Salient points | 10:18 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
As a lifelong church member who's been everything from senior patrol leader
to Scouting commissioner, I believe these are the relevant points:
When Moore said, "I've been in this BUSINESS a long time..." he got it right. For him the purpose is making money, not serving boys, despite his protestations to the contrary.
A level of dishonesty has long pervaded Scouting. It's reflected in boys having their merit badges passed off by Eagle-hungry adults without the boys ever having done the individual requirements for that badge, and it's reflected in Moore's claim that he works 60 to 80 hours a week. Moore does NOT work those hours. That's 11 1/2 hours a day, 7 days a week, and it doesn't count getting dressed, eating and driving to and from work.
The real work is done by the ward-level volunteers. Council execs shouldn't claim THEY'RE the ones serving the boys. It's dishonest.
BSA has high ideals, but nothing that isn't already encompassed by the Aaronic Priesthood program. Scouting activities tend to focus on rank advancement and merit badges. The character building is done by church leaders who would do it all anyway, with or without the formal, costly, cumbersome BSA organization.
When Moore said, "I've been in this BUSINESS a long time..." he got it right. For him the purpose is making money, not serving boys, despite his protestations to the contrary.
A level of dishonesty has long pervaded Scouting. It's reflected in boys having their merit badges passed off by Eagle-hungry adults without the boys ever having done the individual requirements for that badge, and it's reflected in Moore's claim that he works 60 to 80 hours a week. Moore does NOT work those hours. That's 11 1/2 hours a day, 7 days a week, and it doesn't count getting dressed, eating and driving to and from work.
The real work is done by the ward-level volunteers. Council execs shouldn't claim THEY'RE the ones serving the boys. It's dishonest.
BSA has high ideals, but nothing that isn't already encompassed by the Aaronic Priesthood program. Scouting activities tend to focus on rank advancement and merit badges. The character building is done by church leaders who would do it all anyway, with or without the formal, costly, cumbersome BSA organization.
PDF | 10:21 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007
What is a boy worth? If we can save even just ONE from destruction of any kind
isn't it worth it? Scouting has saved many, and what's more, it is
one of the few value-based moral organizations left in the world today. If you
want to send your money to the federal government or to the trial lawyers
association, go ahead, but for me and my money, I will support Scouting!
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Scott Rees: You make a good point, but I believe our Church leaders, both SLC and Ward, are not aware of the obscene salaries the BSA execs are pulling down thanks to our FOS donations. How could this ever be justified?! This DN article is causing Mormon jaws to drop. The BSA exec salary structure is unacceptable, and I look for our Church leaders to take some action, based on this new information from the DN.