Deseret News | Scouts may be thrifty, but some leaders are well paid

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Scouts may be thrifty, but some leaders are well paid

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dean | 8:29 a.m. Nov. 11, 2007

I have long thought scouting being the activity arm for the young men was a waste for many that had no interest in scouting. We, in the church, tend to put more emphasis on getting eagle than the priesthood. My days of participating were over when a professional scouter, speaking at an Eagle court of honor said there were eagles and turkeys.

m8klifegr8t | 8:34 a.m. Nov. 11, 2007

I have worked in scouting for more than 20 years. I also was a life scout. Many years ago the scouts in our ward were making plans for their scout camp that was going to be bigger than in years past. It was discovered that there were funds enough to send one more boy--a boy from a single mom who hadn't participated in the annual fund raiser; however, the scout master protested--claiming it wasn't fair to those boys who had worked at the fund raiser. I was disappointed in all those who upheld that decision. Since then, I have been very upset at the compensation of professional scouters--especially those making huge salaries--while the rest of us volunteer. I will not be supporting friends of scouting ever again. I hope the LDS church realizes that the scouting program is not what it should be.

Utterly disgusted | 8:35 a.m. Nov. 11, 2007

As others have written, the BSA has taken their last donation from me.

The program has done wonders for my 4 sons, but Scout offices are notoriously poorly run. Every family learns to be meticulous in their record keeping because odds are, the scout office has screwed something up.

I see no evidence of scouts being well run by its executives.

Scouting flourishes because of volunteers. It flourishes DESPITE paid scouting leadership, not because of it.

Comments continue below

Annonymous | 8:35 a.m. Nov. 11, 2007

Our 2 sons benefited greatly from scouting. Who cares about comparative salaries? It means nothing. The benefits of the the Scouting Program far outweigh any other issues. I applaud all the volunteers who donate their time and work diligently to make scouting fun for the boys. People don't whine about the millions that rock stars make. It's the law of supply and demand. There are many more physicians, teachers, and whatever other profession you want to name around the country. Professional scouters salaries should not bother anyone. The money donated by people is put to good use. What about all the boys who get into trouble with the law, are on drugs, etc.? I would venture to say that far fewer boys are running afoul of the law are boy scouts. The churches in Utah that sponsor scout units are doing society a big service. I would advocate contributing to scouting. Take a look at what happens to funds donated to a lot of the high profile charities around the country. A large amount of the funds donated to those organizations are sifoned off by organizations doing the fund raising....a small portion of the funds contributed benefit recipients.

Tim | 8:50 a.m. Nov. 11, 2007

I will be happy to keep helping the boys as Scoutmaster, but my pocket book will not be open to pay that kind of money to professional scouts. I am very troubled by this information.

Tom | 9:00 a.m. Nov. 11, 2007

I will continue to support scouts. It is a great program and the boys need it in todays society. But it sounds like we are top heavy and need to change a few things.

Questioned | 9:05 a.m. Nov. 11, 2007

I've been to my local scout office and I'm not impressed with how they run the thing. I asked for a history of the eagle scouts in my troop for the past 3 years and I ended up getting passed from one person to the next before finally looking through binders myself for about an hour to collect the data. Ever heard of a PC? Give me a break, what is the incentive for the Boy Scouts of America to be financially efficient? Who do they answer to? They have no shareholders. I believe the intent of the program is good and much good is accomplished. If someone is in it for the money, I believe they have the wrong motivation and aren't who we are looking for.

D.C. Baker | 9:13 a.m. Nov. 11, 2007

I have been envolved in scouting all my life - from scoutmaster, woodbadge course director, and numerous district postions. The quality of service provided by the district leaders is sufficient to not need professional scout executives to baby sit them. Often they get in the way of our succesful programs. I suggest scout excecutives only be used in to run scout camps and not be assigned to the the scouting districts. Trust the district leaders to run the scouting programs in their districts. This way the number of executives would be greatly redused. Also if the council president Mr.Moore would cut his $200.00 plus salray at least in half, for an excample to the other scout excutives, much money could be saved. It is indeed unfortunate that scouting has become a big business and not a service for boys

Friend of Scouting | 9:14 a.m. Nov. 11, 2007

Too bad many of those who commented here were more interested in themselves than the youth. It is interesting that we are so worried about what others make instead of what an impact we can make on youth.

I don't begrudge any of the scout executives as they spend many more hours doing the job than others, including teachers.

I am glad to support the youth program both monetarily and in serving, I have been a volunteer for 20 years. I also was not a scout as a youth, but I do have Eagle sons!

Eagle | 9:17 a.m. Nov. 11, 2007

As a scout leader, I knocked doors for hours last week for the Friends of Scouting Drive, even donating generously myself. I donate money, time, vacation days, and other resources to the scout program on a weekly basis. I do it because I believe in what Scouting stands for and I have seen it build character in the lives of young boys. But to read that these executives are getting paid THAT much money has seriously shaken my faith in the organization. On the Friends of Scouting Drive, I graciously waited at the door as this wonderful old lady went to gather what change she had, which totaled $5. Now to think that that wonderful old lady's change is going to pay this guy's salary is downright sickening. I would hate to see the church abandon the program, but something seriously needs to change.

ialwayshaveanopinion | 9:21 a.m. Nov. 11, 2007

Part of my problem (abt 90%) with LDS-sponsored Scouting is that there is no similar program for the young women in the church. (Don't even go there on the Personal Progress Program -- I was a YW pres. for a long time.) Their camps are all rough camps -- no professional leaders there either -- while the boys have dormitories, hot showers, etc. My sons hated Scouting but if you weren't involved then there was nothing else for you to do. (And the cost of those Oscar DeLaRenta uniforms?!!!) We lose a lot of boys in the church because of this problem. I have a brother-in-law that is a "Professional Scout" and I won't even go there . . . good grief. I will not be paying my $125 "quota", I can tell you that!!!!!

what? | 9:25 a.m. Nov. 11, 2007

I don't see how they can compare it to being a superintendent, because teachers are paid in a school district, local scout leaders are not. Nor do we want to be paid, quite frankly. I don't see anything wrong with these executives being paid to train leaders and what not, but it's the $ amount that upsets me.

Doesn't Add Up | 9:26 a.m. Nov. 11, 2007

Something doesn't add up here. The LDS Church pays the registration for every young man whether he participates or not. Since all young men do not participate in scouting, that would reduce the cost per boy for services. All wards are given quota's and fund raising (Funds of Scouting) is an assignment with no costs attached - yet, the local councils spend more money on fund raising that other units? In addition, the local troops have their own fund raising activities to help buy equipment and send the troops to camps, etc. which is not funded by the national BSA. It sounds to me like funds raised locally are probably not staying in the local councils but are being used to pay high salaries elsewhere in the United States. The BSA needs to disclose how and where local funds are being used/distributed. I don't mind helping the scouts in my local unit/council if the money stays here. It would bother me if my money is going back East to pay for some guy's million-dollar salary!!

Non Donator | 9:28 a.m. Nov. 11, 2007

Scouting has not incorporated modern technology in lowering their operating costs and will not until forced to. In the business world this force comes from competition, but since they are a monopoly this won't happen. Local troops can dramatically lower their operating costs by skipping the professional "camps" and using the State and National campgrounds.

I deeply resent the incessant fund raising done within the LDS church for a completely independent organization.

Mona | 9:29 a.m. Nov. 11, 2007

Most of you are way off base. Scouting is an inspired program, and enriches the lives of the boys and adults. And if your boy doesn't want to be there, then I hope you can find another activity to involve them in, that will give them as great a foundation for life as does Scouting, which teaches them life skills, correct principles and reverence for God. If the Scouting executive positions were not competitively compensated, the organization would have folded by now. It is no mistake that the LDS Church uses Scouting as their Aaronic Priesthood activity arm. And if your ward doesn't have an adequate program going, speak to your bishop about it.

Scouter's wife | 9:31 a.m. Nov. 11, 2007

I think I'm going to throw up. My husband has been in scouting for years. He is asked to do more and more every year: go to meetings 200 miles away on a week day during work hours at his own expense (he refused to go); have weekly lunch meetings with scout execs during business hours that he then is asked to pay for (he didn't eat and he didn't pay); recruit more volunteers; ask for more money, more registrations; go to other denominations and get their boys into scouting as well, so the exec's salary and bonuses can increase because of someone else's labor; take on additional HOURS of paper work that is not his but the district exec's responsibility (he handed that back). With all that he has turned down, he still put in 25-30 hours a week as a volunteer schout leader. The scouting execs abuse and under-appreciate their volunteers. I've seen it for years. My husband has been rewarded with plaque after plaque every year for his services, but someone has yet to buy him a lunch or fill his tank with gas.

arc | 9:32 a.m. Nov. 11, 2007

I don't know if this is a repeat. My post didn't show up.

80% of the money goes for services. Most charity organizations are between 50% and 80%. Not bad. I don't want the FOS drive to fail, as 80% will go where it needs to.

I do want Paul to go we are having to pay him that much. My Brother-in-law, with education and more experience could do the same job (or better) for $100k. Even $120k per year would be great, but we are asking families where both husband and wife together do not make $50k per year to donate to pay this guy.

I will donate enough for an other patch this year, but Pres. Hinckley and Pres. Monson, who read the paper should complain. perhaps GSLC will wake up. We have the best scouters in the nation, we don't need to pay this much for an import.

Steve | 9:39 a.m. Nov. 11, 2007

Ok, "Open Minded Thinker", let's look at the data.

According the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics occupational survey:

* The top 10% of all corporate executives only average $121,020.

* The top 10% of all attorneys only average $158,660.

The top 10% of all physicians only average $208,000.

I can't find ANY profession where the top 10% earn as much as the SLC scout executive.

I still say SHAME.

jbird | 9:46 a.m. Nov. 11, 2007

Having been a Scoutmaster and the father of two Eagles, I'm really sad to say it, but Scouting has lost touch with the young men of today. It has become an exercise in old men vicariously reliving their childhoods through young men who are commanded to submit to it.
Though it was inspired for the young men of a day, the Church needs another program that is more relevant for today's young men.Duty to God is a good start. Let's flesh it out a little more.

BSA vs. ....... | 9:48 a.m. Nov. 11, 2007

I don't mind be solicited by the kids in the neighborhood for donations. I have never really cared whether it was for Soccer, Baseball, Football, School Fair or whatever. I view the act of going door to door as "educational" in and of itself.

However, I know the balance sheets of Little League sports and with the possible exception of Ute Conference Football they all operate on a shoestring and do not compensate their "volunteers".

I know that Gary Mat. and the Football boys make some serious coinage, due to their CONSTANT efforts to keep it a secret. I viewed that as a necessary evil to allow 10,000 boys the opportunity to play.

But at least their numbers of "kids involved" are real. For Mr. Boy Scout to justify his salary with 'look at ALL the boys we have in our program' is either naive or an out and out lie.

After reading this article I am going to take the 2nd choice. I too, will turn away the local kids as they try to sell me Jamboree tickets or similar donation packets.

I will re-print this story to hand them instead.

Pragmatic | 9:51 a.m. Nov. 11, 2007

Scouting IS a great program and needed now more than ever to engage youth in appreciation of the outdoors. Evidently it IS a great career path as well. Maybe parents should encourage their kids to be scout execs rather than simply Vice President, Supreme Court Justice, etc.

Friend of Scouting | 10:04 a.m. Nov. 11, 2007

While I agree that the compensation appears to be inflated, I think that everyone is forgetting about the rewards of scouting. Scouting tries to encourage young men to be their best, learn as much as they can and follow the scout motto. If all people followed the scout motto and oath think what a better place this would be.
Scouting should look at their salaries and make some adjustments. Let's not stop our support of raising up fine young men who hold the values of the scouting program. I will continue to support scouting because it helps all of us. Think where we might be without young men following the scouting values.

dave | 10:07 a.m. Nov. 11, 2007

A good program for the "young men" could be achieved just as the the program for "young women" is done--with dedicated volunteers. There is absolutely no need for paid executives in order to succeed. Not wanting to spend millions to pay the salaries of executives doesn't mean that I don't appreciate the need of a good program for young men. The real work has been done and is being done by those who care enough to do it without compensation.

Steve T | 10:08 a.m. Nov. 11, 2007

What is funny is to listen to the families of the scout executives defend these absurd compensation levels.

Has anyone noticed which paper generated this story? It is fair to say that this was run by some of the ownership of the Deseret News.

I suspect that a few LDS church leaders are having the same reaction we are.

Scout Staff | 10:18 a.m. Nov. 11, 2007

I think I want to be a scout exec some day. To think I spent all those summers directing scout camps, being camp staff, for near minimum wage!!
And as a local scout leader in a ward, I think I it would be fair to take a percentage of the FOS dontations, and then keep the rest all locally for our troop, that way it wont go to the buy our DE a boat fund.

Rose Park | 10:20 a.m. Nov. 11, 2007

I will never donate money again to Scouting.

Rethinking | 10:23 a.m. Nov. 11, 2007

I will no longer be supporting the FOS drive but rather give generously to the fundraising efforts of the local troop. We are sometimes led to believe that our FOS donations are to help the local program but it sound like they are used for "administrative costs." Now that I realize what those costs are I will rethink the way I contribute.

Anonymous | 10:28 a.m. Nov. 11, 2007

I will continue to donate as long as church leadership supports FOS, even though I don't personally agree with the scouting program.

I've lived in 5 different states and this blog is a good representation of how church members around the country feel about scouting. That is... very few boys are interested and the ward leaders do their best to run the program only because church HQ still endorses it.

Benjamin | 10:37 a.m. Nov. 11, 2007

Anybody who thinks that the scout executives sit in their offices and do nothing need to become better acquainted with the program. I have seen nearly every professional from the Great Salt Lake Council in action, and as a group they impress. Not only do they put in long hours, but under challenging circumstances.
In 2005 I saw Paul Moore and about two dozen professionals at Camp Steiner shovelling snow so that the camp could open on time for the summer. I've seen Paul Moore come up to Steiner at 6am (leaving SLC at least by 4.30) to support the camp program. I've seen professionals like Moore, Kay Godfrey, and Reid Hall put in 18 hour days wrestling with paperwork, uncooperative "volunteers", and chronic lack of funds.
Yes uniforms and badges are expensive, but that's not because the scouts are profitting from them heavily, that's because there aren't 20 corporations competitng to make them. (It isn't exactly a profitable market).
One other note: Given the fact that the local councils oversee 100,000volunteers and participants, comparing their salaries to that of a small business is disingenuous. The more appropriate comparison would be with a company like ExxonMobil (106,100 employees).

Anonymous | 10:41 a.m. Nov. 11, 2007

I've lived in Utah, Arizona, California and Idaho... the FOS drive works the same way in all 4 states. Each ward is given a quota and a tremendous amount of pressure to make the quota. While our Idaho ward's quota was only $2,700 this year, when I lived in California it was closer to $6,000. That's on top of the $1,000 per family the stake asked for from me personally and several other families to defeat the gay marriage amendment.

Anonymous | 10:54 a.m. Nov. 11, 2007

How out of line is the BSAs compensation? Mr Williams manages a budget of $170 million and was paid over $900,000. I work for a fortune 50 company and manage a budget of $165,000 and make $130,000.

The diference (besides our salaries) is that my budget comes from legitimate sales to the consumer while Mr Williams budget is based entirely off of donations from hard working people - some of them who are struggling to make ends meet.

Anonymous | 11:02 a.m. Nov. 11, 2007

Like scout executives, I too work 60-80 hours a week. Like scout executives, it's tough on my wife too because I'm never home. The difference... after my 60-80 hour work week, I volunteer 10 hours of my time on my scout calling.

Chris | 11:03 a.m. Nov. 11, 2007

I'm an Eagle scout and a reasonably generous contributor to Friends of Scouting. I'll continue to contribute to FOS simply as a show of support for my bishop, since I've seen the pressure he gets to fulfill the quota. (One year, our ward's contribution packet got returned to us twice before those above us were finally satisfied with the level of our "voluntary" contributions.) But if the boycotts some are proposing here bring about a change for the better, I say more power to them.

Despite getting my Eagle, I don't have fond memories of scouting. I never could see what sleeping in a tent had to do with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I learned a lot more edifying life lessons from my priesthood quorum than my scout troop. The main thing I recall learning from scouts was how to cope when you're surrounded by boys intent on re-enacting "Lord of the Flies".

Eagle Scout from Cal | 11:06 a.m. Nov. 11, 2007

There was a push in my ward in California to get boys done with the eagle scout by the time they turned 14. That way they could stop scouting, focus on the priesthood and other activites set up by the leaders. My favorite memories and experiences come from those activities after I turned 14, and not scouting. The huge emphasis on scouting in the LDS church needs to go.

SE Idaho | 11:11 a.m. Nov. 11, 2007

I run a company that generated $225 million last year.

My board would laugh at me if I asked to be paid Paul Moore is getting.

realist | 11:15 a.m. Nov. 11, 2007

Excellent article, Mr. Lee. I really appreciate such honest and open reporting in the D-News on a controversial topic. I have been a fairly consistent and large supporter of F.O.S. in past years (including this year), mostly because I support the young men and their local leaders, but I always suspected that a large portion of the $$ went to scounting executives' salaries. Now that this article confirms it, I will no longer be donating to F.O.S. BSA should either cut way back on the salaries, or the church should separate itself from scouting.

I love scouts, but... | 11:21 a.m. Nov. 11, 2007

I think that the LDS church should dump the BSA and ramp up the Duty to God program. The church is lean and mean for such a large organization. BSA is not.

The BSA bureaucracy is killing scouting. While the LDS Church is focusing on simplifying programs (see Elder Oaks' conference talk), BSA is making things more and more complex and time consuming.

These professional scouters are out of touch. I'll never forget an overnight training I went to where we sat for hours in a smokey cabin getting chastized for not doing enough, and the professional scouter teaching us ripped on a counselor in our bishopric for not holding some meeting regularly enough. I almost cried. This counselor was giving so much of his time already to our youth. These professional scouters are not a help but a burden to the volunteers.

I would like to see the Church dump scouts and make Duty to God the new "Eagle Scout" equivalent. The BSA is so caught up in nifty badges and pins and advancements and self-important leader certifications that they've lost site of what's most important: ministering to these boys. The boys are more important than the program.

The bottom line | 11:36 a.m. Nov. 11, 2007

I've been in scouting for 20 years. Bottom line is the vast majority of boys in the church don't care about scouting. They only do it because they are forced by their parents.

well duh | 11:38 a.m. Nov. 11, 2007

Too bad they never read Baden-Powell. This is the irony of it all, Baden Powell said that the only person in Scouting that should be paid is the secretary.
So much for listening to the founder of Scouting...

Homeron | 11:40 a.m. Nov. 11, 2007

My Opinion : It is time the church starts their own scouting program ! These over paid scouter's sound like the days when The United Way was over paying their workers. I quit giving to the Scouts a few ago when I checked into where some money I had donated(Not FOS) and asked it to go to buy some supplies for our Troop . They told me it had gone to pay administrative costs ! I stopped giving that day even to F.O.S (Fork Over Some more)

FOS | 11:45 a.m. Nov. 11, 2007

Now I feel sorta duped.

I guess I can't get my money I have donated back, but I think I am going to send them back my Eagle Scout Award from 1978.

Should I send it to the BSA or the LDS Church Admin. Building for most impact?

Hey Benjamin | 11:47 a.m. Nov. 11, 2007

Mr. Moore must be the highest paid snow shoveler in the world!!! Just think, how many day laborers they could hire to shovel that snow with a small chunk of the $214,000 salary so that people wouldn't have to feel bad that Mr. Moore works so hard!!!

thrifty? | 11:48 a.m. Nov. 11, 2007

A scout is thrifty, but a scout is also trustworthy and loyal.

"'If you don't pay well, you will not get top talent. If you don't get top people, you will just fail.' He says if Utah councils do not pay well, the top executives will simply go to other councils of similar size."

Where is the trustworthiness and loyalty in that?

Mom | 12:01 p.m. Nov. 11, 2007

My son got drunk for the first time at scout camp and learned from the leaders to use fireworks illegally in the woods. Admittedly, this was in another state, but I think I am not the only mom who is not impressed with what goes on at scout events.

Ex-Exec leader in Arizona | 12:12 p.m. Nov. 11, 2007

When my oldest son was 5 years old I fought and started Tiger Cubs in Lake Havasu City, Az. Then I spent the next 5 years running the only pack in the area. Pack # 8, Den 6 (5 other dens did not succeed in the past). I did everything because there was no one else to help. I started off with 3 boys and when I moved 5 years later there was 174 boys in Cub Scouts. I had a good group of parents that came to every pack meeting, camp out, hiking trip etc and one took over when I moved. We were never paid anything other then the gratitude of the boys and the families. All of our activities, supplies, merit patches, etc came out of my pocket. The parents that could help financially did but they were few. Everything I did was for my sons and the other boys, not for me or a church. We were not sponsored by a church but met at the boys schools. I got the community to stand behind us and donate all that they could to help out.
**Continued on next post**

Factual Comparisons | 12:20 p.m. Nov. 11, 2007

It's clear that many on this list haven't a clue how scouting functions, why its set up the way that it is, and why the pay is where its at for some top professionals. Some commenters have made comparisons that don't equate the same to other professions. Its ok in your minds to pay your School Superintendant high 6 figures, but a Executive Director of a council can't? Yet he has more employees, more "students" and more at risk then the superintendant. Utah has 3 top professionals in scouting for the whole state, serving hundreds of thousands of youth, while the school system has how many people earning 6 figures? How many of them are "top execs?"
Your entry level BSA professional gets about 36k, yet the job is more like a high school principal, then a teacher. How many of you would want to be a high school principal - and get paid 36k? How many of you would want to do that job and then have to raise all the money for your school and its programs - as no state/federal funding pays for your school?
Your BSA pros earn their keep. Get the facts.

Ex-Exec leader in Arizona | 12:24 p.m. Nov. 11, 2007

The Bishop in our ward in Dixie Downs came right out and told me that I could not have a den because I was not part of the church!!! I had served on the Executive Committee in Az but here I could not even have a den!!!
My sons tried to continue with Scouting but were not treated like everyone one else because they did not go to "the church" on Sunday so they did not find out about events. Needless to say, both of my sons quite Scouting after just getting the Arrow of Light award. What a shame that was! They loved Scouting but Scouting is not ran by BSA standards with the church involved. The community pack was just starting and I wish we had known about them because many my sons would of continued.
It does not take great amounts of money to run a successful Scouting program but parents and a community that are willing to help out.
I WILL NEVER DONATE TO FRIENDS OF SCOUTING IN UTAH AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Ex-Exec leader in Arizona | 12:41 p.m. Nov. 11, 2007

"It's clear that many on this list haven't a clue how scouting functions, why its set up the way that it is, and why the pay is where its at for some top professionals."
Do you mean BSA or LDS BSA Scouting? There is a very big difference in the two. I just wish the article would of also stated the salaries of BSA officials and not just LDS BSA officials because if you do your research there is a very large difference in the salaries of the two. BSA was founded and run on different principles then how it is run within the church.
My children learned some very valuable lessons from Scouting and I would not trade that for anything. One of the many things they learned is that you do not have to make a 6 figure income to care about the boys you oversee!!!!!!!!! Geez, guess it is REALLY different in Utah!

lost scout | 12:54 p.m. Nov. 11, 2007

mr moore's salary is out of line, out of whack, and out of sight. sure enjoyed all the hazing that occurred at our scout camps-that made "men out of us". i am a school teacher in my 5th year making less than 35k, i am not happy with my administrators making 3x what I make, but i daily watch them oversee and handle a multitude of student, parent, state and governmental educational issues as well as mandated programs, so don't compare mr moores salary even though he has years of service. lds church: wake up and be a little flexible! quit demanding scouting as the only option to teach and influence young men. you'll never get another dime from me. i will pay to the local scouts directly so i can see the benefit, not fatten your wallet.

My dad | 12:57 p.m. Nov. 11, 2007

There are several plaques in my parents home that recognize my dad for his "generous" donations. My folks live in Kearns and they're not too well off. When my dad was the bishop he would write a check to cover most of the FOS "suggested" ward amount. He knew his Kearns ward didn't have a lot of money to spare. He cut his expenses and donated so his church leaders would not keep asking him to "ask" members to donate. I am glad for Scouting and earned my Eagle award. But there were a lot of other kids who didn't care about scouts and I was the only one on many nights that attended. My dad, the bishop, gave a lot of time to the ward, worked a full-time job, and then helped out on scouts. He didn't complain but I know scouts cost him a lot of money and time he could ill afford. I wonder how many other bishops contribute so they don't have to ask the ward. Maybe they got plaques for their houses too?

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