Deseret News | Scouts may be thrifty, but some leaders are well paid

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Scouts may be thrifty, but some leaders are well paid

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YBH | 11:40 a.m. Nov. 14, 2007

My Scout Motto:

Any Friend of Scouting is no friend of mine.

DN Asked Wrong Question | 12:10 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

The question should be, "How efficient is a BSA council in delivering Scouting to youth?" There are a lot of ways to assess this, including the quality and quantity of services vs. how much it takes to provide the services. This article focused on one element of cost, amounting to 3% of expenses for Great Salt Lake Council. Taking a broader view, GSLC's cost per youth served is very low.

If my calculations are correct, Great Salt Lake Council spends about $90 per youth per year. I did a web search to find out what other councils in the western US are spending. Of 13 councils whose websites provided cost information, only two were lower at $70 and $88. In four of the councils, costs were well above $200. One council advertised a cost of $450(!) per Cub Scout or Boy Scout (but this figure excludes Venturers/Explorers; composite figure is probably about $350).

Utah National Parks Council website shows a figure of $150 per youth, which is about the middle of the range -- not the least expensive, but certainly not the highest. I was unable to find any figures on Trapper Trails Council.

You get what you pay for | 12:37 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

Go ahead and take away your support for organized Ward activities, including scouts and see what your kids do. Everyone knows kids that drag their heals at many organized activities because its not "cool", but better a wholesome/constructive/volunteerism activity such as scouting, than running the neighborhoods because they are "bored".

Oh yeah - regarding salary. You get what you pay for folks. Try and plug in someone with less experience to manage an area with the largest number of scouters in the country and see what happens.

If Utah ever wants to be taken seriously by the rest of the country, then its people had better start thinking a bit more progressively. The recent election results show this as an area of weakness for the state yet again. You cannot have your cake and eat it to.

Comments continue below

changes changes | 12:45 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

Great article.

It's time for change. I hope the LDS church severs its relationship with the BSA and further develops Duty to God. I feel the young men and volunteer leaders in the church will be much better served and utilized elsewhere.

My family participated with the scouting program as scouts and volunteer leaders for a few years and we are now all cutting ties. It was not serving the needs of the boys in our area. I am happy to see our judgment validated here.

Envy | 12:57 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

Ask yourselves if you are really upset out of envy. I also think some posting negative things about eagle scouts in here are using this as a way to justify their own inabilities to earn it.

Concerned | 1:48 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

This has truly been enlightening! ARE THEY REALLY WORTH THAT MUCH??? THAT IS THE QUESTION? I have heard alot of people defending but this does not answer the question. ARE THEY REALLY WORTH THAT MUCH?? If they were to be fired tomorrow could they go and interview and be hired with a comparable salary??

Artemis | 2:10 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

Excellent Article! More articles like this should be published so people are not just blindly giving. I always wondered where the *dues* and contributions went especially since the BSA is run primarily by volunteers.

I think I'll just take my kids camping and fishing myself and save alot of money.

Scouts should include EVERYONE! Those of all orientations and beliefs. Why should we pay top execs to raise up a bunch of little biggots?!

Again | 3:45 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

Trying to enter this comment for the 10th time it seems like - try looking up via google "scout execs splurge' and read an article about the misuse of funds by scout leaders nationwide recently in a swanky Florida resort designed as a 'getaway' - yeah a bunch of execs getting paid north of $200k a year really need a getaway from their overwrought jobs in the scout organization. I'm sure its a pressure cooker in there.

Anonymous | 5:32 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

The article addressing Scout Leaders salaries seems to me nothing more than an attack upon Scouting, and that is deplorable. LDS leaders are paid substantial "benefits" and "expenses" from tithing and donations, and nothing is said of this, especially by the church-owned Deseret News. I recently had the privilege of researching the history of Scouting in Utah, and I was impressed by the dedication, devotion, and sacrifice made by these men and women over the years. These kinds of scurrilous articles demean and detract from the wonderful work done by the Boy Scout organization. I suggest that the editor of the Deseret News reveal his salary and benefits, and disclose the hours he devotes to his position. He would better serve to devote that time to serious news instead of character assassination. I think it is deplorable and while many will be rethinking support of Scouting because of the article, I will be rethinking my interest in the Deseret News.

Blue star fish | 5:44 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

Is this for real?

TYLER | 5:51 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

I have always been in scouting and have had some good and bad experiences. My ward went on dozens of camps, most of which were loads of fun. But I've watched as men waste away their vacation time to spend with boys when they should be spending with their family. From what I've heard, the Church wants to cut down the amount of Church activites drastically because it takes away from time with the family. There's no need for too many scouting activities. A couple well planned camps a year can be just as meaningful as dozens of activities.

Terry | 5:56 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

The church cannot give up the BSA scouting program because it is a recruiting program. Because it supports BSA, it must allow member and non-member alike into it's program. It cannot discriminate. If it were to just use the YM Duty to God award, they could not bring in new members. Years ago when I worked in scouting, a non-member family were all baptized into the church through bringing their son into the scouting program. These people originally didn't want anything to do with the church. They saw how their son grew through the BSA programs. By him attending during the week, he found out about the next week's meeting. He learned about "duty to God" through Scouting. Eventually his family would attend award meetings in the ward meeting house. It showed them not to be afraid of the LDS people. I think because this article showed people what all these different salaries are, it scared them into thinking that upper management of the BSA is getting paid too much. Ask most bishops or stake Pres. what they make. Most won't tell you but most don't dig ditches either. Boys need structure or they will become bad boys.

Akela | 6:08 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

I wish more truth was told into what a Scouting Executives job is. I wish all of you that complain about Paul Moore (and the other 2 scouting Execï¿½s) actually had the chance to sit down and talk to him or take a look into what a scouting executive actually does. Moore is the scouting exe (CEO of the Great Salt Lake Council). There are Directors, District Execs, Office Workers, and Camp Staff beneath him. He also deals with the tens of thousands of Volunteers, including the executive board that approved his salary (President Dalquist, the YM general President is a member of this Board). He serves 77,000 youth in GLSC. He is the executive of 8 Scout Camps. He will do whatever it takes to get the job done and that is evident by him shoveling snow so that the boys could have camp; how many CEOs would rather just pay someone to do that instead. 60 hours a week can definitely be an understatement of how much work can be put it. 35 years of experience in the field deserves a reward. We should applaud Moore for all he does in scouting to help YOUR youth.

Volunteer Scouter | 7:14 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

I am really upset with the lack of knowledge that some of the readers have, do they understand that there is only 2 organization that teach values one is the church and the other is the Boy Scouts of America. What kind of hours do you think these leaders put in and the time from their families and other interests. Not many of you would spend every weekend, and 3 to 4 night a week from you home, and then what about 8 to 19 weeks at a scout camp with all those boys. I think that professional scouters should be praised and given our thanks for the job they do, not run them down and worry about what they make.

Anonymous | 11:47 p.m. Nov. 14, 2007

Funny how money comes into question with the aspect of development of our young men with an outside organization when money is attached to an issue. I am a faithful member but transplant from California.

How about the price of SLC City Creek redevelopment project? BSA is small potatoes in any LDS financial picture but I am getting extremely concerned about my tithing and if it is dispersed in a charity or business venture.

I am not originally from Utah but am LDS and am quickly becoming alarmed from the culture.

BTW is the Deseret News and other media outlets owned by the church; I have been told this and just want to verify????ï¿½. the news reporting just seems slanted and odd at points.

YM Leader | 12:41 p.m. Nov. 15, 2007

My Credentials: Eagle award; (old) Duty-to-God award; YMPresident/ScoutLeader for two decades; Father of 3sons/2daughters.

I agree with comments that the Scouting program **as carried out by the LDSChurch** is a joke.

Something has to change. Some people recommend the Church drop Scouting and create their own program. I disagree.

The Duty-to-God program is too weak, lacks substance, and has no real merit. The ï¿½YWRecognitionï¿½ program is pathetic. Frankly, the Church track record shows they would be hard pressed to develop anything close to what the BSA has created unless they paid some executives as much as BSA pays them!

Answer: the Church must stop ï¿½influencingï¿½(bullying) Scouting into accommodating them and more fully embrace the Scouting programs as they were meant to be, for both young menANDyoung women!

This means they should:

1. Separate Scouting and YM/YWLeadership. YM/YWPresidents should support serious Scouters in the Community rather than be defacto ScoutLeaders. YM/YWLeaders should focus on ChurchDuties and quit pretending to be Scouters.

2. Separate PriesthoodAdvancement and Scouting. Scouting should be Merit(performance)-based, not age.

3. FOS by ScoutersONLY. Do not let Church leaders pushFOS. Church authority should NEVER be implicitly-nor-explicitly involved in fundraising for any organization except the Church itself.

Hopefully this is thoughtful | 4:41 p.m. Nov. 15, 2007

After reading more of these comments than I ever intended I find myself asking one simple question, ï¿½Why would so many people be turned off by scouting executives making serious six figure salaries?ï¿½ It seems to me that many negative comments are not coming from apostate, anti-mormon, hedonists with an ax to grind.

For what it is worth, I have served in many senior Church positions inside and outside Utah. I am an eagle scout as are all my sons. I served a mission and hold a current temple recommend. I know many of the general authorities personally and consider many close friends. My wife and I have given generously to scouting our entire married life.

After reading this article I WILL NO LONGER DONATE TO FRIENDS OF SCOUTING and will pray that the Church leadership will take a hard look at the relationship of the Church and scouting!!! Duty to God is far superior. It seems that scouting has moved from being a volunteer movement to build men to becoming a business to raise membership and sell services, and such businesses need high priced executives.

Best Laugh Yet | 6:04 p.m. Nov. 15, 2007

"Because of my PhD in Psychology..."

are you serious???

thanks for the great laugh.

Anonymous | 1:22 a.m. Nov. 16, 2007

My ward has quite a few boys, very few have fathers who are involved in their life. They seem to love scouting, and I would say are doing very well under their situations. The leaders love scouting stuff, mostly camping. I guess it has rubbed off on the boys. But dealing with all the red tape is a head ache for everybody. Camp permits, registration.

Upset Scout Leader in Utah | 11:14 a.m. Nov. 16, 2007

The Executives should be willing to allocate a portion of their salaries to finance the completion of the scout camps being developed. Yet the executives claim there is not enough money to finish developing the camps! What a Crock! I WILL NEVER AGAIN participate in Freinds of Scouting to furthur pad the pockets of the OVER PAID Executives.

GREED will have a detrimental effect on any organization. Scouting will suffer because of the GREED of the scouting executives. The very fact that scouting executives would leave Utah to seek other higher paying BSA posts throughout America proves these scouting leaders are motivated by GREED. I would love to know how much these executives personally donate annually to Friends of Scouting. It would shock us all to learn that NONE OF THEM DONATE! This is Truly Appalling!!!

Reluctant Scouter | 4:10 p.m. Nov. 18, 2007

This article is simply a confirmation of what I have always believed about scouting administrators. I have served in a Bishopric and done my share of begging for funds to support outrageous salaries and minimal services. My apologies to all those who faithfully donated when solicited.

D. Glenn | 11:02 p.m. Nov. 18, 2007

This past summer when my husband's unit attended a GSLC camp, he found the facilities in disrepair. So, during the FOS drive, we thought: "this will help the camps", not knowing that funds are being diverted for six figure executive salaries. It is too bad that the BSA and other nonprofit organizations don't understand that good and qualified people who are "self actualized" exist - people who do the right thing for the right reason. These types find fulfillment in "doing good" with a salary package that is sufficient. Those who command six figure incomes should be replaced!

Time to Sharpen the Saw | 11:45 a.m. Nov. 19, 2007

When much is given much is expected. Quite simply the disorganization at the scout office, the lack of service from the scout office, the disrepair found at many scout camps all need attention. I am in charge of FOS (have been for three years) and was asked for a 10% increase over last year. What am I getting for a 10% increase? Show me that repairs are being made at camps. Show me that records are being computerized. Show me that an average human can navigate the website. Then, lets talk about compensation. My employer evaluates my contributions and compensation quarterly. If I provided the same level of service, attention to detail, and organization exhibited by the scouts I wouldn't have a job. No time for crying or resigning: get out there and fix it.

wondering | 3:32 p.m. Nov. 19, 2007

None of you people have donating to FOS like you say you have.

Its $50. What's the big deal. Don't you care about the boys?

None of you complainers have actually done much to help scouting in other ways, so write a check so you are doing something at least.

problem | 3:40 p.m. Nov. 19, 2007

You people have no problem pluking down $100 to go to watch the Jazz wizzle away another season but you can't pay half of that to support the scouts? A relatively small percentage goes to the leaders.

The only thing you'll get from the Jazz is another season without a championship. Worth $100? C'mon. Get some priorities.

Dedication | 3:23 p.m. Nov. 20, 2007

I have often thought that you will get out of Scouting what you put in. Money will not solve all the problems that Scouting is plagued with. For example: how do you solve the problem of The Mormon Church Leaders saying that every boy should be an Eagle Scout and then have less than 10% of the scouts parents care about scouting or what there leaders say.
Drive on! Work hard! And follow your leaders that is if you really believe that they are inspired. If they aren't don't do scouting. If they aren't don't work towards Eagle.

Scott | 11:33 a.m. Nov. 26, 2007

Maybe we are shocked by salaries of scout executives because scouting is a ï¿½volunteer organizationï¿½. We assume since scouting is volunteer, executives that work hard for scouting are super charged volunteers, not paid professionals.

The 2002 Olympics was a volunteer organization. We were shocked that the Olympics had well paid staff and executives.

The LDS Church is a volunteer organization. Many would be shocked to learn that it has well paid professionals working for it.

In addition to volunteers, volunteer organizations need professionals to direct, train and lead (just like ï¿½for profitï¿½ corporations). It is difficult to attract talented professionals without good compensation. Maybe it is hard to accept compensation levels of professionals in volunteer organizations because it contrasts more sharply with pay for volunteers than it does with employees in ï¿½for profitï¿½ counterparts.

I donate 60+ hours per month to scouting. It is a break from my professionand allows me to give back to the community. I would not enjoy Scouting the same if it was my job.

Rather than focusing solely on the compensation of professionals we should focus on what volunteer organizations are able to accomplish with limited resources using both talented paid professionals and unselfish volunteers.

L. Scott Williams | 11:32 a.m. Dec. 6, 2007

Here's the deal. Mormon boy scouting is great for growing in the priesthood but weak on the scouting skills. Baden Powell started a program based on the scouting skills. I now have an 11-year-old boy. My local ward is weak on scouting. They're uncommitted, won't wear the uniform, and so forth. Sports is their "game". These are good people-just bad scouters. My solution, my boy and I are going to a Lions Club troop. I'm offering my experience and my son to the best troop who will say and do the scout oath,practice great camping and scouting,and will wear the uniform. Any sport parent will pay the big bucks for their kid to get into baseball or basketball. I'm going to do the same for my kid for scouts. He's going to love getting his eagle. And when he's a dad he'll be a great scouter. A lot of us parents have let too many people take our place to make memories with our kids. We all need to stand up and take back good scouting for the sake of our children.

Raising the Bar | 8:34 a.m. Jan. 31, 2008

Church leaders,

Please develop a program that's more inline with the needs of our youth. If we're going to "raise the bar" for our youth, it's only fair that we raise the bar for their programs.

Like many past programs, scouting is not doctrine, nor is it prescribed in the scriptures. There are many examples where the church has changed its programs to meet the changing times:

-"Preach My Gospel" replaces discussions
-Smaller temples
-Perpetual education fund
-Consolidated block schedule
-Central building fund

I believe scouting has lost its savor. I believe, the current scouting program teaches our boys that they can be earn rewards that they haven't earn individually. Based on personal experiences and talking with other leaders, I believe this is the case in many of our wards. What does this teach our youth for the future?

If scouting is truly viable, it will become even more effective for Mr. Williams' boys (above) because there will be less dead-weight to carry.

-A concerned parent

diligentdave | 9:09 a.m. Feb. 2, 2008

I remember giving to "Friends of Scouting" earlier during my marriage when giving $5.00 or $10.00 for me was extremely hard (but most years I gave something). Being self-employed, at that time, I was consistently $5000 - $6000 in the hole every month, doing all I could humanly do to keep things together. I'm not in that position at the moment. But, with a possible (if not actual) recession (or maybe even depression) looming, I don't know if I may not be put in that position again soon.

I have not been called to work in the Scouting program as an adult. But, from what I have experienced in the few encounters I've had with "professional scouters", the men involved have always seemed to me like overpaid bureaucrats. And the "difference" they make or seem to make doesn't seem anywhere near commensurate with these types of salaries.

Its time to hire one of the many fantastic volunteers at a much lesser (but still high for them) salary & boot these "fat cats".

Richard | 9:04 a.m. Feb. 2, 2008

The scouting program is great. As long time leader who has worked with most of the executives for many years, they work long and hard hours. They are required to put lives into their work. This great work to assist the young men to improve their skills and lives. In the long run, it is very little money from each of us to help this great work.
So many hard feeling have been expressed in those email I have just read. To those with hard feeling, I say, please look deep into the results of the program.
Should you not want to contribute, that is fine. Those who know the value of the program will pay more.

Just think.... | 9:35 a.m. Feb. 2, 2008

.....if the Des News reported how much your lds church leadership makes. Would you be so appalled with that? Scouting sometimes raises many children, theaches them morals and keeps them from lives of crime etc. I think the people in charge of that responsibility should be paid well, they're taking care of your kids and teaching them things that you cannot.

Values | 4:45 a.m. May 13, 2008

I'm sure the Scouting program does not run at full efficiency. No organization does. It takes great skill, experience and leadership ability to make an organization serving the mumber of boys and young men served by the Salt Lake Council work. Without the training programs, and facilities provided by the Council a huge vacuum would be created, which would be, in the case of most boys, filled by the exact opposite of the values stressed and taught in Scouting.
We all need to focus on improving the way these values are taught and recieved. Is it any wonder that boys sometimes fail appreciate the values of Scouting, when their parents, neighbors and even their leaders are so negative about the organization whose whole purpose is to teach young men to live according to the priciples of the Scout Oath and the Scout Law. Oh, and by the way girls also benefit from Scouting. I want my daughter to date and marry someone who is trustworty, loyal, helpful friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent. What other organization even attempts to teach these values so succinctly. What our society needs more than anything is to learn these values.

Scoutmaster | 9:13 p.m. Oct. 5, 2008

It is almost a year since this article was published and I came across it before starting my assignment for FOS. I think donors to FOS should be given more information about where the money goes and how it is handled - it is surprisingly hard to find.

While I don't believe the scouter execs deserve the pay they receive, my real concern is the inconsistency in the church with scout funds. I am a scoutmaster and am not allowed to have a fund raiser for my troop and am not allowed to ask the boys to pay for any of the costs of the program. The result is that a lot of money comes out of my pocket and those of the other leaders (we frequently pay for gas, food, and other incidentals).

In spite of my personal expenses and inability to raise money for my boys we are *required* to raise a certain amount of money for FOS. I believe the churches policy on raising money for FOS but disallowing fundraisers for local troops is inconsistent and detrimental to the boys and the leaders that run the program.

Go Scouts | 4:26 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

I just heard about this article from a relative who refuses to ever give to scouting again - he has 1 eagle scout, 2 in scouts, and 3 more to go. Does he expect a free ride for his boys? I have 1 eagle scout and 1 close to earning his eagle. I have been involved with scouts for 8 years, a den leader and a merit badge counselor. I love scouts - it has been great for my boys and those I have served. My girls are in activity days and they do not even do anything compared to what the boys do! Their leaders are inconsistent and meet rarely. I have done their Faith in God with them at home, like we are supposed to do. I have also worked on Duty to God with my sons, but scouting has just added a lot more. It is worth the investment and it is well run. I do choke at prices at the scout office, but it is cheaper than what many parents buy in designer clothes for kids, at it has much more meaning. Go scouts!

Get what we pay for...? | 5:08 p.m. Aug. 3, 2009

I thought the BSA was basically all volunteers- this article puts a damper on on that for me. I'm trying to accept the notion that it's worth paying the big bucks to get the best of the best scout executives, but I just can't get myself to believe that.

I feel that there are many who would gladly volunteer to fulfill those duties who would have those needed skills, and would still put all their heart and soul into it, even though they're not being paid the big bucks for it.

Am I wrong? Is it really that important to get the best of the best when it comes to certain skills, even though those best of the best executives might be there in large part because of the money instead of being in it for the boys?

bigger picture | 8:02 p.m. Aug. 3, 2009

all of you who are complaining about the salaries make me sick. I am 26 years old now and an eagle scout, graduated from college, and currently at an average paying job. I enjoyed scouting very much and experienced things I wouldn't have without scouting. I have seen scouting make a difference in the lives of the kids and parents. why don't all you complainers go job shadow an executive and just see how "EASY" his job is to keep all this great opportunities going for those kids who have nothing better going on in their lives. you all should be ashamed of your jealousy. you should be happy this program is still alive with all the junk that is going on in the world today. this is the escape for those who can't provide one for themselves. i will be donating whatever i can for the rest of my life. thanks to all those who still care and see the bigger picture

Snake Oil and Thugs | 10:56 a.m. Oct. 6, 2009

“Oh you didn’t get your Eagle Scout? “

If you live here in Utah, this phrase is bandied about as a form of casual discrimination inside the church. Somehow if you didn’t stick through the program in your youth despite drunken, sexually abusive ‘leaders’ you are somehow relegated to being a second-class saint.

Just attend an Eagle Court of Honor to see what I mean. There is a seating area called the “Eagles Nest” (I guess people don’t read their history around here as to why that is a problematic name). Only Eagle Scouts past and present may sit in this area, and of course it’s the upfront best seats in the house. The peasants can sit in the back.

I feel no desire to provide funds to an organization that creates disparity in the membership of the church. All they lack is the jackboots; they already have the superiority complex down pat.

Time of year again | 8:12 a.m. Oct. 13, 2009

It is that time of year again. Are we getting what we're paying for?

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