Many professional Scouters earn 6-figure salaries across the U.S.
It is that time of year again. Are we getting what we're paying for?
“Oh you didn’t get your Eagle Scout? “If you live
here in Utah, this phrase is bandied about as a form of casual discrimination
inside the church. Somehow if you didn’t stick through the program in
your youth despite drunken, sexually abusive ‘leaders’ you are
somehow relegated to being a second-class saint. Just attend an
Eagle Court of Honor to see what I mean. There is a seating area called the
“Eagles Nest” (I guess people don’t read their history around
here as to why that is a problematic name). Only Eagle Scouts past and present
may sit in this area, and of course it’s the upfront best seats in the
house. The peasants can sit in the back. I feel no desire to
provide funds to an organization that creates disparity in the membership of the
church. All they lack is the jackboots; they already have the superiority
complex down pat.
all of you who are complaining about the salaries make me sick. I am 26 years
old now and an eagle scout, graduated from college, and currently at an average
paying job. I enjoyed scouting very much and experienced things I wouldn't have
without scouting. I have seen scouting make a difference in the lives of the
kids and parents. why don't all you complainers go job shadow an executive and
just see how "EASY" his job is to keep all this great opportunities going for
those kids who have nothing better going on in their lives. you all should be
ashamed of your jealousy. you should be happy this program is still alive with
all the junk that is going on in the world today. this is the escape for those
who can't provide one for themselves. i will be donating whatever i can for the
rest of my life. thanks to all those who still care and see the bigger picture
I thought the BSA was basically all volunteers- this article puts a damper
on on that for me. I'm trying to accept the notion that it's worth paying the
big bucks to get the best of the best scout executives, but I just can't get
myself to believe that. I feel that there are many who would gladly
volunteer to fulfill those duties who would have those needed skills, and would
still put all their heart and soul into it, even though they're not being paid
the big bucks for it.Am I wrong? Is it really that important to get
the best of the best when it comes to certain skills, even though those best of
the best executives might be there in large part because of the money instead of
being in it for the boys?
I just heard about this article from a relative who refuses to ever give to
scouting again - he has 1 eagle scout, 2 in scouts, and 3 more to go. Does he
expect a free ride for his boys? I have 1 eagle scout and 1 close to earning his
eagle. I have been involved with scouts for 8 years, a den leader and a merit
badge counselor. I love scouts - it has been great for my boys and those I have
served. My girls are in activity days and they do not even do anything compared
to what the boys do! Their leaders are inconsistent and meet rarely. I have done
their Faith in God with them at home, like we are supposed to do. I have also
worked on Duty to God with my sons, but scouting has just added a lot more. It
is worth the investment and it is well run. I do choke at prices at the scout
office, but it is cheaper than what many parents buy in designer clothes for
kids, at it has much more meaning. Go scouts!
It is almost a year since this article was published and I came across it before
starting my assignment for FOS. I think donors to FOS should be given more
information about where the money goes and how it is handled - it is
surprisingly hard to find.While I don't believe the scouter execs
deserve the pay they receive, my real concern is the inconsistency in the church
with scout funds. I am a scoutmaster and am not allowed to have a fund raiser
for my troop and am not allowed to ask the boys to pay for any of the costs of
the program. The result is that a lot of money comes out of my pocket and those
of the other leaders (we frequently pay for gas, food, and other incidentals).
In spite of my personal expenses and inability to raise money for my
boys we are *required* to raise a certain amount of money for FOS. I believe the
churches policy on raising money for FOS but disallowing fundraisers for local
troops is inconsistent and detrimental to the boys and the leaders that run the
I'm sure the Scouting program does not run at full efficiency. No organization
does. It takes great skill, experience and leadership ability to make an
organization serving the mumber of boys and young men served by the Salt Lake
Council work. Without the training programs, and facilities provided by the
Council a huge vacuum would be created, which would be, in the case of most
boys, filled by the exact opposite of the values stressed and taught in
Scouting. We all need to focus on improving the way these values are
taught and recieved. Is it any wonder that boys sometimes fail appreciate the
values of Scouting, when their parents, neighbors and even their leaders are so
negative about the organization whose whole purpose is to teach young men to
live according to the priciples of the Scout Oath and the Scout Law. Oh, and by
the way girls also benefit from Scouting. I want my daughter to date and marry
someone who is trustworty, loyal, helpful friendly, courteous, kind, obedient,
cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent. What other organization even
attempts to teach these values so succinctly. What our society needs more than
anything is to learn these values.
.....if the Des News reported how much your lds church leadership makes. Would
you be so appalled with that? Scouting sometimes raises many children, theaches
them morals and keeps them from lives of crime etc. I think the people in charge
of that responsibility should be paid well, they're taking care of your kids and
teaching them things that you cannot.
The scouting program is great. As long time leader who has worked with most of
the executives for many years, they work long and hard hours. They are required
to put lives into their work. This great work to assist the young men to improve
their skills and lives. In the long run, it is very little money from each of us
to help this great work.So many hard feeling have been expressed in those
email I have just read. To those with hard feeling, I say, please look deep into
the results of the program. Should you not want to contribute, that is
fine. Those who know the value of the program will pay more.
I remember giving to "Friends of Scouting" earlier during my marriage when
giving $5.00 or $10.00 for me was extremely hard (but most years I gave
something). Being self-employed, at that time, I was consistently $5000 - $6000
in the hole every month, doing all I could humanly do to keep things together.
I'm not in that position at the moment. But, with a possible (if not actual)
recession (or maybe even depression) looming, I don't know if I may not be put
in that position again soon.I have not been called to work in the
Scouting program as an adult. But, from what I have experienced in the few
encounters I've had with "professional scouters", the men involved have always
seemed to me like overpaid bureaucrats. And the "difference" they make or seem
to make doesn't seem anywhere near commensurate with these types of salaries.Its time to hire one of the many fantastic volunteers at a much lesser
(but still high for them) salary & boot these "fat cats".
Church leaders,Please develop a program that's more inline with the
needs of our youth. If we're going to "raise the bar" for our youth, it's only
fair that we raise the bar for their programs.Like many past
programs, scouting is not doctrine, nor is it prescribed in the scriptures.
There are many examples where the church has changed its programs to meet the
changing times:-"Preach My Gospel" replaces discussions-Smaller temples-Perpetual education fund-Consolidated block
schedule-Central building fundI believe scouting has lost its
savor. I believe, the current scouting program teaches our boys that they can
be earn rewards that they haven't earn individually. Based on personal
experiences and talking with other leaders, I believe this is the case in many
of our wards. What does this teach our youth for the future?If
scouting is truly viable, it will become even more effective for Mr. Williams'
boys (above) because there will be less dead-weight to carry.-A
Here's the deal. Mormon boy scouting is great for growing in the priesthood but
weak on the scouting skills. Baden Powell started a program based on the
scouting skills. I now have an 11-year-old boy. My local ward is weak on
scouting. They're uncommitted, won't wear the uniform, and so forth. Sports is
their "game". These are good people-just bad scouters. My solution, my boy and I
are going to a Lions Club troop. I'm offering my experience and my son to the
best troop who will say and do the scout oath,practice great camping and
scouting,and will wear the uniform. Any sport parent will pay the big bucks for
their kid to get into baseball or basketball. I'm going to do the same for my
kid for scouts. He's going to love getting his eagle. And when he's a dad he'll
be a great scouter. A lot of us parents have let too many people take our place
to make memories with our kids. We all need to stand up and take back good
scouting for the sake of our children.
Maybe we are shocked by salaries of scout executives because scouting is a
volunteer organization. We assume since scouting is volunteer, executives that
work hard for scouting are super charged volunteers, not paid professionals.
The 2002 Olympics was a volunteer organization. We were shocked
that the Olympics had well paid staff and executives. The LDS
Church is a volunteer organization. Many would be shocked to learn that it has
well paid professionals working for it. In addition to volunteers,
volunteer organizations need professionals to direct, train and lead (just like
for profit corporations). It is difficult to attract talented professionals
without good compensation. Maybe it is hard to accept compensation levels of
professionals in volunteer organizations because it contrasts more sharply with
pay for volunteers than it does with employees in for profit counterparts.
I donate 60+ hours per month to scouting. It is a break from my
professionand allows me to give back to the community. I would not enjoy
Scouting the same if it was my job. Rather than focusing solely on
the compensation of professionals we should focus on what volunteer
organizations are able to accomplish with limited resources using both talented
paid professionals and unselfish volunteers.
I have often thought that you will get out of Scouting what you put in. Money
will not solve all the problems that Scouting is plagued with. For example: how
do you solve the problem of The Mormon Church Leaders saying that every boy
should be an Eagle Scout and then have less than 10% of the scouts parents care
about scouting or what there leaders say. Drive on! Work hard! And follow
your leaders that is if you really believe that they are inspired. If they
aren't don't do scouting. If they aren't don't work towards Eagle.
You people have no problem pluking down $100 to go to watch the Jazz wizzle away
another season but you can't pay half of that to support the scouts? A
relatively small percentage goes to the leaders. The only thing
you'll get from the Jazz is another season without a championship. Worth $100?
C'mon. Get some priorities.
None of you people have donating to FOS like you say you have.Its
$50. What's the big deal. Don't you care about the boys?None of you
complainers have actually done much to help scouting in other ways, so write a
check so you are doing something at least.
When much is given much is expected. Quite simply the disorganization at the
scout office, the lack of service from the scout office, the disrepair found at
many scout camps all need attention. I am in charge of FOS (have been for three
years) and was asked for a 10% increase over last year. What am I getting for a
10% increase? Show me that repairs are being made at camps. Show me that records
are being computerized. Show me that an average human can navigate the website.
Then, lets talk about compensation. My employer evaluates my contributions and
compensation quarterly. If I provided the same level of service, attention to
detail, and organization exhibited by the scouts I wouldn't have a job. No time
for crying or resigning: get out there and fix it.
This past summer when my husband's unit attended a GSLC camp, he found the
facilities in disrepair. So, during the FOS drive, we thought: "this will help
the camps", not knowing that funds are being diverted for six figure executive
salaries. It is too bad that the BSA and other nonprofit organizations don't
understand that good and qualified people who are "self actualized" exist -
people who do the right thing for the right reason. These types find
fulfillment in "doing good" with a salary package that is sufficient. Those who
command six figure incomes should be replaced!
This article is simply a confirmation of what I have always believed about
scouting administrators. I have served in a Bishopric and done my share of
begging for funds to support outrageous salaries and minimal services. My
apologies to all those who faithfully donated when solicited.
The Executives should be willing to allocate a portion of their salaries to
finance the completion of the scout camps being developed. Yet the executives
claim there is not enough money to finish developing the camps! What a Crock!
I WILL NEVER AGAIN participate in Freinds of Scouting to furthur pad the pockets
of the OVER PAID Executives.GREED will have a detrimental effect on
any organization. Scouting will suffer because of the GREED of the scouting
executives. The very fact that scouting executives would leave Utah to seek
other higher paying BSA posts throughout America proves these scouting leaders
are motivated by GREED. I would love to know how much these executives
personally donate annually to Friends of Scouting. It would shock us all to
learn that NONE OF THEM DONATE! This is Truly Appalling!!!
My ward has quite a few boys, very few have fathers who are involved in their
life. They seem to love scouting, and I would say are doing very well under
their situations. The leaders love scouting stuff, mostly camping. I guess it
has rubbed off on the boys. But dealing with all the red tape is a head ache
for everybody. Camp permits, registration.
"Because of my PhD in Psychology..."are you serious??? thanks for the great laugh.
After reading more of these comments than I ever intended I find myself asking
one simple question, Why would so many people be turned off by scouting
executives making serious six figure salaries? It seems to me that many
negative comments are not coming from apostate, anti-mormon, hedonists with an
ax to grind.For what it is worth, I have served in many senior
Church positions inside and outside Utah. I am an eagle scout as are all my
sons. I served a mission and hold a current temple recommend. I know many of
the general authorities personally and consider many close friends. My wife and
I have given generously to scouting our entire married life.After
reading this article I WILL NO LONGER DONATE TO FRIENDS OF SCOUTING and will
pray that the Church leadership will take a hard look at the relationship of the
Church and scouting!!! Duty to God is far superior. It seems that scouting has
moved from being a volunteer movement to build men to becoming a business to
raise membership and sell services, and such businesses need high priced
My Credentials: Eagle award; (old) Duty-to-God award; YMPresident/ScoutLeader
for two decades; Father of 3sons/2daughters.I agree with comments
that the Scouting program **as carried out by the LDSChurch** is a joke.Something has to change. Some people recommend the Church drop Scouting
and create their own program. I disagree.The Duty-to-God program is
too weak, lacks substance, and has no real merit. The YWRecognition program is
pathetic. Frankly, the Church track record shows they would be hard pressed to
develop anything close to what the BSA has created unless they paid some
executives as much as BSA pays them!Answer: the Church must stop
influencing(bullying) Scouting into accommodating them and more fully embrace
the Scouting programs as they were meant to be, for both young menANDyoung
women!This means they should:1. Separate Scouting and
YM/YWLeadership. YM/YWPresidents should support serious Scouters in the
Community rather than be defacto ScoutLeaders. YM/YWLeaders should focus on
ChurchDuties and quit pretending to be Scouters.2. Separate
PriesthoodAdvancement and Scouting. Scouting should be Merit(performance)-based,
not age.3. FOS by ScoutersONLY. Do not let Church leaders pushFOS.
Church authority should NEVER be implicitly-nor-explicitly involved in
fundraising for any organization except the Church itself.
Funny how money comes into question with the aspect of development of our young
men with an outside organization when money is attached to an issue. I am a
faithful member but transplant from California.How about the price
of SLC City Creek redevelopment project? BSA is small potatoes in any LDS
financial picture but I am getting extremely concerned about my tithing and if
it is dispersed in a charity or business venture.I am not originally
from Utah but am LDS and am quickly becoming alarmed from the culture. BTW is the Deseret News and other media outlets owned by the church; I have
been told this and just want to verify????. the news reporting just seems
slanted and odd at points.
I am really upset with the lack of knowledge that some of the readers have, do
they understand that there is only 2 organization that teach values one is the
church and the other is the Boy Scouts of America. What kind of hours do you
think these leaders put in and the time from their families and other interests.
Not many of you would spend every weekend, and 3 to 4 night a week from you
home, and then what about 8 to 19 weeks at a scout camp with all those boys. I
think that professional scouters should be praised and given our thanks for the
job they do, not run them down and worry about what they make.
I wish more truth was told into what a Scouting Executives job is. I wish all
of you that complain about Paul Moore (and the other 2 scouting Execs) actually
had the chance to sit down and talk to him or take a look into what a scouting
executive actually does. Moore is the scouting exe (CEO of the Great Salt Lake
Council). There are Directors, District Execs, Office Workers, and Camp Staff
beneath him. He also deals with the tens of thousands of Volunteers, including
the executive board that approved his salary (President Dalquist, the YM general
President is a member of this Board). He serves 77,000 youth in GLSC. He is the
executive of 8 Scout Camps. He will do whatever it takes to get the job done and
that is evident by him shoveling snow so that the boys could have camp; how many
CEOs would rather just pay someone to do that instead. 60 hours a week can
definitely be an understatement of how much work can be put it. 35 years of
experience in the field deserves a reward. We should applaud Moore for all he
does in scouting to help YOUR youth.
The church cannot give up the BSA scouting program because it is a recruiting
program. Because it supports BSA, it must allow member and non-member alike into
it's program. It cannot discriminate. If it were to just use the YM Duty to God
award, they could not bring in new members. Years ago when I worked in
scouting, a non-member family were all baptized into the church through bringing
their son into the scouting program. These people originally didn't want
anything to do with the church. They saw how their son grew through the BSA
programs. By him attending during the week, he found out about the next week's
meeting. He learned about "duty to God" through Scouting. Eventually his family
would attend award meetings in the ward meeting house. It showed them not to be
afraid of the LDS people. I think because this article showed people what all
these different salaries are, it scared them into thinking that upper management
of the BSA is getting paid too much. Ask most bishops or stake Pres. what they
make. Most won't tell you but most don't dig ditches either. Boys need structure
or they will become bad boys.
I have always been in scouting and have had some good and bad experiences. My
ward went on dozens of camps, most of which were loads of fun. But I've watched
as men waste away their vacation time to spend with boys when they should be
spending with their family. From what I've heard, the Church wants to cut down
the amount of Church activites drastically because it takes away from time with
the family. There's no need for too many scouting activities. A couple well
planned camps a year can be just as meaningful as dozens of activities.
Is this for real?
The article addressing Scout Leaders salaries seems to me nothing more than an
attack upon Scouting, and that is deplorable. LDS leaders are paid substantial
"benefits" and "expenses" from tithing and donations, and nothing is said of
this, especially by the church-owned Deseret News. I recently had the privilege
of researching the history of Scouting in Utah, and I was impressed by the
dedication, devotion, and sacrifice made by these men and women over the years.
These kinds of scurrilous articles demean and detract from the wonderful work
done by the Boy Scout organization. I suggest that the editor of the Deseret
News reveal his salary and benefits, and disclose the hours he devotes to his
position. He would better serve to devote that time to serious news instead of
character assassination. I think it is deplorable and while many will be
rethinking support of Scouting because of the article, I will be rethinking my
interest in the Deseret News.
Trying to enter this comment for the 10th time it seems like - try looking up
via google "scout execs splurge' and read an article about the misuse of funds
by scout leaders nationwide recently in a swanky Florida resort designed as a
'getaway' - yeah a bunch of execs getting paid north of $200k a year really need
a getaway from their overwrought jobs in the scout organization. I'm sure its a
pressure cooker in there.
Excellent Article! More articles like this should be published so people are
not just blindly giving. I always wondered where the *dues* and contributions
went especially since the BSA is run primarily by volunteers. I
think I'll just take my kids camping and fishing myself and save alot of
money. Scouts should include EVERYONE! Those of all orientations
and beliefs. Why should we pay top execs to raise up a bunch of little
This has truly been enlightening! ARE THEY REALLY WORTH THAT MUCH??? THAT IS THE
QUESTION? I have heard alot of people defending but this does not answer the
question. ARE THEY REALLY WORTH THAT MUCH?? If they were to be fired tomorrow
could they go and interview and be hired with a comparable salary??
Ask yourselves if you are really upset out of envy. I also think some posting
negative things about eagle scouts in here are using this as a way to justify
their own inabilities to earn it.
Great article. It's time for change. I hope the LDS church severs
its relationship with the BSA and further develops Duty to God. I feel the
young men and volunteer leaders in the church will be much better served and
utilized elsewhere.My family participated with the scouting program
as scouts and volunteer leaders for a few years and we are now all cutting ties.
It was not serving the needs of the boys in our area. I am happy to see our
judgment validated here.
Go ahead and take away your support for organized Ward activities, including
scouts and see what your kids do. Everyone knows kids that drag their heals at
many organized activities because its not "cool", but better a
wholesome/constructive/volunteerism activity such as scouting, than running the
neighborhoods because they are "bored".Oh yeah - regarding salary.
You get what you pay for folks. Try and plug in someone with less experience to
manage an area with the largest number of scouters in the country and see what
happens.If Utah ever wants to be taken seriously by the rest of the
country, then its people had better start thinking a bit more progressively.
The recent election results show this as an area of weakness for the state yet
again. You cannot have your cake and eat it to.
The question should be, "How efficient is a BSA council in delivering Scouting
to youth?" There are a lot of ways to assess this, including the quality and
quantity of services vs. how much it takes to provide the services. This
article focused on one element of cost, amounting to 3% of expenses for Great
Salt Lake Council. Taking a broader view, GSLC's cost per youth served is very
low.If my calculations are correct, Great Salt Lake Council spends
about $90 per youth per year. I did a web search to find out what other
councils in the western US are spending. Of 13 councils whose websites provided
cost information, only two were lower at $70 and $88. In four of the councils,
costs were well above $200. One council advertised a cost of $450(!) per Cub
Scout or Boy Scout (but this figure excludes Venturers/Explorers; composite
figure is probably about $350).Utah National Parks Council website
shows a figure of $150 per youth, which is about the middle of the range -- not
the least expensive, but certainly not the highest. I was unable to find any
figures on Trapper Trails Council.
My Scout Motto:Any Friend of Scouting is no friend of mine.
I too think we should separate the BSA from Church YM programs. I'm very active,
I support my leaders and I hold a calling that's very high profile in the
church. Unfortunately, sometimes some programs get held onto because of
tradition. I've always wondered why we still have Stake Lagoon Day. Why not
"Stake Utah Symphony Day" or Stake This is the Place Heritage Park Day." I
believe that it is one of those things that has been overlooked and at some
point someone will say, hey, we're not going to do that anymore.The same
thing will happen with BSA. I also think one of the reasons the church hasn't
pulled out is because BSA does well with some boys and they want to see it
succeed. The day will come when the church will pull out and implement it's own
program.As for the salaries, I think that it is too much. I don't
think many would begrudge 100K, but over double that is too much for a
non-profit. And as for FOS, it's just plain wrong to have assesments. Let the
professionals of BSA increase their other fundraising activities just like other
I find it interesting how many people call for the LDS church to start a program
that will compete with BSA. Do you not realize that the same leaders who are
running this program ineffectively will run the "church" program as well.
Success is about the commitment and excitment of the volunteers and not out of
obligation to do a "calling". Scouts should not be forced on any boy but good
volunteer leaders who care about Scouting find ways to make it successful and
relevant for the boys. Anyone who is "called" who is not interested and does
not want to commit to making the program successful should just say NO when
This is a clasic example of the newspaper "creating news." This is a non-issue
and has done a terrible disservice to scouting. Whether you believe it or not,
the salaries are in line and appropriate for the service rendered. I GUARANTEE
that you will not find another competent person that would do the job for less
money. It just will not happen. Those of you who think you are that good
should be making that amount where you are. If you are not, you are not that
good. I make nowhere near that salary but know that my salary is
commensurate with what I have chosen for a career. I do not begrudge what
another makes. If I want to make that sacrifice, I, too, could make that
income.My take has been the opposite on this issue. I am grateful
there is a competent manager overseeing such a vast and significant program. I
feel more comfortable than ever volunteering my time and donating to this great
cause. Those that feel otherwise are naive or covetous.
$200k per year is not that much for a CEO of any similar sized organization. If
I had his responsibility, I would expect that much or more. Those who are going
to cease contributing to one of the best organizations that society has created
because of a CEO's salary had better start looking at where they spend the rest
of their money. CEO's of ALL the organizations from which you buy the "staples
of life" get paid significantly more than that. You buy video games, rent
movies, consume soft drinks and particpate in other luxury activities that
provide no moral outcomes. How much do you think the producers of these
products make? And, how much do you spend on those items each year compared to
scouting? Next time you rent and movie or buy a soft drink, think
about what you are really getting for your money.
I spend about 20 hours a week keeping up with all the "CYA" paper work and I get
paid zilch!!! It's time that the Mormon church stand up, make their own program
and leave the scouts in the dust. I am offended that the church would knowingly
buy into such a top heavy organization.
You questioning my donations would be like me questioning your PhD.I'm a sitting COR and wrote my check for $100.00 within the last month. I
begged others in the ward for over a month to participate. I collected nearly
$3,000.00 for our ward which fell short of the "at least $10.00 a month from 60%
of the ward" quota that was suggested. For you to suggest that me
or others who have concerns have "probably never given" is absurd.By
the way, my concern has less to do with the salary expose article than it does
with my long-held belief that the church should not be doing the fund raising
for BSA. The line of authority on the whole FOS is through the stake (because
everyone knows that will increase participation). Soliciation for friends of
scouting should not be done over the pulpit. BSA leaders & volunteers who would
like to assist with FOS should take over this activity.
i grew up in a scout family. i am a scout master and this blows my mind. this is
a non-profit organization. i can guarantee i could find 1000 dedicated men that
would do that job for 200k. this is absolutely unconscienable that 1000s of
leaders on the front lines donate their time and money to a wonderful cause
while the bigwigs up top are raking in that kind of dough. this has to change,
To some of us in our council in California, FOS stands for Fund Our Salaries.
You don't have the complete picture of where all of the money goes. Google
'guidestar' and go to the site. Then, type in 'boy scout salt lake city
council'. Once registered for free, click on form 990 to get the rest of the
Pyramid schemes are interesting.Most politicians don't seek office
for the money as much as power. Cheney took a pay cut. Motivation is
If they are going to run things like a company, with excessive executive
salaries, the least they could do is modernize the program and get to where kids
older than 13 like it. Give it up on the uni's guys. Your killing
us! Basketweaving is still a merit badge? Its time you guys woke up and got a
program that gets us past the 1950's. What are you giong to do when the 60 and
70 year old supporters are gone?
Now I know why merit badge prices have soared in the last few years. How do ask that much from people for free, only to get this kind of
All of these postings have brought some much needed laughter to my life.
Especially, "Experienced Leader", 8:38p.m. 13 Nov. It is so funny to see so
many claim to have given so much to FOS before this article and now that you
read this article, you have seen the light and will no longer give. Because of
my PhD in Psychology (which education qualifies me for more salary than the
scout execs)I know that most of you actually never gave to FOS before, but are
now using this article to justify what has always been.
This is a not a problem with Boy Scouts. This is a problem with corporate
compensation. Why would anyone run the Scouts for 50K a year when he/she can go
anywhere else and make 10 times more. We have to pay the going rate. Its
unlikely that we will find a qualified philanthropist who values scouting more
than money. Its even less likely that there are enough qualified
philanthropists to allow every Scout council to hire their own.
I have been asked to collect for FOS...I should have it done by now, and I
waited so long that I now have to deal with this news...could the CEO dude
please donate a few sheckels to me for a bullet proof jacket rental? I'd be
I am a volunteer and use to work at the scout office. I am appalled that the
executives make that much money. The employees make minimum wage and do all of
the hard work. They never paid overtime to their employees, they simply recieved
"comp time" which was unpaid time off for the time that was worked over 40
hours. To think that we worked many hours overtime and they didnt pay us for
that, but instead that went to the executives makes me angry.How would you feel
if you worked overtime without pay, but your boss made 6 figures? I once worked
46 hours of overtime in am month and got 3 days off without pay as compensation.
(I couldnt afford to take any more)I am also a volunteer and spend countless
hours and money on my boys. The Scouting program is a great program with great
values, and it shouldnt be penalized, but someone needs to take a better look at
the pay schedules for the actual employees. I think the scout executives work
hard and need to be compensated, but when is the last time you saw one of them
at the office working with the others.
I have put twelve of my own boys through the scouting program, all of which
became Eagle Scouts. I was an Assistant Scoutmaster, Scoutmaster, Chairman,
Bishop's Counselor, Bishop, Stake Mission President, Counselor in the Stake
Presidency, Area Authority and now serve as Patriarch and after reading this
article I will never give to FOS again...
I think it would usher in an era of hope and peace if the LDS Church dropped the
BSA. I'm 17 years old and have always been happy that I decided to stop active
participation before I ended up with an Eagle. Scouting is such an absurd
program nowadays that I would be flat out ASHAMED to be an Eagle Scout. I have
seen people excluded because of the expensive activities; I have been involved
in laborious fundraisers just so my ward can pay the scouting fees. I would say
that the average cost per Eagle Scout is over $600. Why are we spending so much
time on these fundraisers if so few people benefit? Many troops have seen the
ineffectiveness of the program and don't actively participate anyways. Why are
we still paying the money to fund these greedy buffoons at the top of the BSA?
Scouting does not meet the needs of the young men in the church anymore. The
Duty to God program is very much more valuable and is furthermore free. Robert
Baden-Powell did not start scouting to harm boys and fill greedy pockets, but
this is what it is starting to do.
I have always wondered where all that Friends of Scouting money went that I
begged for from my niegbors. I knew that we never saw any of it in our troop.I think it is a disgrace that these men are taking a quarter of a
million dollars at the local level and a million at the natinal level. What
CROOKS! We are so grateful to know the truth.
I'm a firm believer in the principles the Scout program teaches. I worry that
if the LDS church dropped scouting, it could severly weaken the organization
which would hinder non-LDS troops as well. The executive compensation is higher
than I would like to see. However, how many people who have posted might be
willing to pay $80 for a Jazz ticket for a two hour game. Most of that money
goes to the players & LHM. $80 to FOS is better spent in my opinion. I would
like to see the LDS church slowly back away from scouting in a way that didn't
drastically hurt the BSA organization. The Young Men's program could still do
plenty of community service and camping, but bag the costly badges, charter
fees, paperwork, & administrative costs, etc. I will support FOS because it's
better spent there than on concert tickets or Jazz games. I wouldn't be sad to
see the LDS church run their own equivalent program though.
I think the problem is that people feel that a person that earns 4 times the
average Utahn's salary should offer something that they can't do. A surgeon or
doctor can save a life. A college football coach has the rare knowledge it
takes to win against 11 huge athletes. It has been established that
professional scouters work hard. Every professional does. But **what do these
guys do that I can't do?** I have more education, as much or more skill with
youth (I'm a teacher) and a great knowledge of the outdoors and scouting ways.
(Eagle scout and almost 2 decades of experience in scouting).As a
scoutmaster who has tried to patch this sinking ship, I say let Duty to God take
over from here.
Well I'm surprised at the salaries but I'll probably still give the same
moderate sum to FOS as always.I've spent decades in YM and scouting
callings, and I estimate 50% of 12-14 Y.O.s like it, but 90% or more of 14 Y.O.s
& older do not. Maybe BSA should end at 14 in Church. If it was truly
voluntary and self-funding in the wards I think it would collapse.Furthermore, many BSA council leaders secretly do not like the Mormon troops
and leaders because LDS leaders and youth have a greater committment to the
Church and a shallower committment to BSA, and because they perceive that badges
and rank advancements are often "given" and not really earned.
Growing up, my best friend's dad was a professional scouter. He did work long
hours and their family was not wealthy by any means. I have no problem with 23
professional scouters in the state making $50,000 dollars a year. That's
$50,000 pre-state and federal taxes, and $50,000 pre-FICA. When you take that
in to account, it's really not an excessive amount to raise a family on. And
considering the fact that most of those professional scouters have probably been
at it 15-20 years, I think that making that much money is okay. And as for Paul
Moore making $200,000, a) he's over scouting for the ENTIRE STATE (how about we
stick in someone less experienced that we can pay less, let's see how
efficiently things run in the BSA then) and b) I guarantee that he works longer
hours at his job than the vast majority of the the complainers posted here.
I wonder if the key now is for those in the Scout Councils to take
responsibility for the organization that they oversee.The next
meeting of each Council needs to be open to the public and the press -- a press
release needs to go out. There needs to be intense coverage and plentiful
attendance by those who are not a member of the Counci. And, that needs to
continue.It would be interesting to watch this debate play out in
the light of day with voting members of the Council explaining why salaries
should or should not be where they are.While private, Scouting is
really a a public institution in the sense that is serves a broad swath of our
population. If it is going to survive and thrive, its leaders need to deal head
on with the issue of executive compensation, taking into account the intense
views out here.If they merely dismiss the public outcry, then
resentment will continue to build. The Scout offices are now in the spotlight.
They need to embrace public scrutiny and avoid the urge to ignore the unwashed
Yes, the scouting program is a good program, if it is run well. My brother's
scout master was not a good example, and, so when my son joined the scouts, his
father became heavily involved. There wasn't a single overnight activity
without Dad being there. I felt I had to protect my son. I'm proud of my eagle
scout son, but don't see the need of the scouting program in church. By the
way, I have a Ph.D., put in more than 40 hours a week, and definitely don't make
a million dollars. And I even love what I'm doing. I don't donate to the
United Way, because of its overhead, and will no longer donate to FOS. My
donations go directly to the church. Overhead is at a minimum there. There is
no justification for these kinds of salaries.
My kids will never be involved in this orginization!!! This is a shocker, I
couldn't believe this and wish I hadn't made that donation to the scouts because
it undoubtly didn't go to the boys...What a shame!!!!
I wonder how many professional scouters have numerous posts here to save their
own jobs. If they feel that they can earn more elsewhere, let them! I agree
wholeheartedly with those that say that Duty to God should replace the Scouting
program. Scouting has not changed with the times and we now find it antiquated
and out of touch with the needs of our youth.
I would like to see the LDS Church keep Scouting but negotiate with BSA to be an
independent franchise. The Church would follow BSA rules and purchase all
materials from BSA (badges, manuals, uniforms, etc.) like franchises do, but the
Church's council would have its own leadership (perhaps volunteer but more
realistically paid), do its own fund-raising, own and maintain its own camps and
facilities, etc. If BSA is about the young men, an arrangement is do-able.
I am not sure where I come out on this whole debate. I loved Scouting as a boy
and gained a great deal from it. And I know the Brethren still support Scouting
in the U.S. Boys certainly need to learn goal setting and how to work hard need
to have something other than just video games and music. On the other hand, in
my last two Scout callings, I would say that only about one boy out of eight had
any self-motivation to come to meetings or work on requirements at home. And it
was like pulling teeth to get parents to follow up with boys at home. Even the
bishop and the "stronger" families in the ward routinely let their boys miss
meetings and camps for sports or parties or what have you (and I don't blame
them--every family should decide for itself was is more important). Also, I
wonder how relevant all the teaching is that relates to camping, knots, and so
forth. This is no longer the world we live in. Somehow the Duty to God program
needs to become preeminent and completely supplant Scouting.
I for one won't be contributing another dime to scouting for the rest of my
The real issue (to me) is not what BSA professionals make. The real issue is the
use of LDS ecclesiastical organization (stakes and wards) to collect money for a
private corporation. The FOS drive material should be sent directly to the scout
troop leaders not to the stake president with a troop (ward) goal attached. The
same is true for IHC (Pennies By The Inch) and even Stake Lagoon Day tickets;
the church organization should NOT be used to support private corporations
regardless of past relationships or customs. Whether or not scouting is
relevant to boys today is another issue that the church needs to address...and
As a former leader within the LDS church I always found it very hard to always
take the Scouting line from the leaders of the church. I think something that
meets the resistence that scouting has overall on the ground floor, with common
members of the church for so long, shows that either something is very
fundimentally wrong with the church's un-dieing support of this corporation, OR
we as members are going to be weeded out as non-believers. I thend to think it
is the former. But I don't ever see the church leadership backing away from
scouts so we best just bear the trial.
No comments since 8:27 a.m.? Mine haven't shown up yet and were not abusive,
offensive, off-topic or misrepresentative. What's up?
FOS has never been to collect $ for the scouts in your neighborhood (Ward).
It's always been for the District & Council leadership.If you are
opposed to FOS - make a donation directly to your local scouts. Mormons can
fill out the "other" field on their Tithing slip and specify Scouts (Deacons),
Varsity (Teachers) or Venture (Priests).
Utahns are cheap. Create it as an MLM and watch it grow!! Sorry, you won't get
money back if you contribute to FOS or get others to contribute, just a well run
program that continues to improve! Thank you Mr. Moore!
You wrote:"The level of compensation exceeds what is available in
most private corporations of similar size."My friend, you apparently
have not idea how much money people make. Private organizations half the size
of BSA pay their top executives significantly more than what this guy makes.
Non-profit org's need top talent, too. This man, for all he does,
is largely under paid.
I've been in Scouting for years, earned my Eagle, served as Asst Scoutmaster and
then Scoutmaster, and am currently the Webelos leader. I have many fond
memories of scouting, however, I never liked FOS because of how it's handled by
the wards and stakes. I've already paid my donation but next year plan on
giving it to the ward troop instead. I have never seen one benefit come back to
the boys and that's where it's needed the most. By the way, I have three boys,
the oldest of which is in my Webelos den. I hope all three will eventually earn
their Eagles.One last point, I've compared the advancment
requirements and they are harder now than 23 years ago when I earned my Eagle.
Hey "Zion Prospereth", so the head BYU football coach makes 300+K...so what? He
is responsible for putting a football program together which will fill the
64,500 seat in Lavell Edwards Stadium. If it weren't for the football program
you could kiss goodbye most all of the other athletic programs at BYU, and there
could be other financial benefits that we don't know about. So basically the
BYU coach is a fund raiser for other programs! The scouting program just sucks
money in for their OWN purposes. And for Friends of Scouting...I
have just LOVED how we are "unofficially assigned" a certain dollar figure but
can't use a fund raising activity to raise it. My old Bishop used to say "if
they are going to give me an unoffical allotment then we will have an unoffical
fund raiser to raise the money."I understand if this scout official
was paid 80-100K but that is it!
My comment didn't appear so I'll rewrite it in a different way: I once
commented to my bishop that as his second counselor it saddened me that my
standing in the priesthood hinged upon my ability to raise funds for the Boy
Scouts of America.
The people who are mormon and posting your thoughts, can you see how hypocritcal
you are? Is this why the missionaries have been telling me that the church is
true but the members in it aren't? From the outside looking in, your church has
so many impressive factors from a logical stand point. And I love how I feel
when I am around some of your members. Frankly, the reaction to this article
tells me there are those who are not as convinced as I am that there is good in
the mormon church. If these posts are any indication of the dedication of your
church's belief's, the church is in trouble. My next meeting with the
missionaries will be interesting...
Scout official's HAVE to be paid well. Do you have any idea how many UNIFORMS
those guys have to buy? ;-)
How well I remember the day over a decade a go when I was serving as 2nd
Counselor to the bishop. The stake's demands to fulfill the FOS quota were
bordering on harshness. I had just done my second or third round of trying to
squeeze the required dollars from the members. I said to him this: "It's a sad
day when my standing as a bearer of the Melchizedek Priesthood hinges upon my
ability to raise funds for the Boy Scouts of America." There's just got to be
a better way to make this work.
None of the comments newer than 6:55 am are showing up.
Why are scout executives paid such large salaries? I know that they put in a lot
time, but so do I in my job plus I put in time as a local non-paid volunteer
scout leader. Why am I not financially compensated for this work when I could be
earning more in my civilian job? The reason is because I feel a purpose that I
am helping my family and community. For some reason it appears that the scout
executives have lost sight of working for a higher purpose. Most people are okay
with scout executives earing a good salary, but what I read in this article was
outlandish and showed a total lack of understanding and oversight from those
that should be in charge of this fine program.As for me I will have
future doubts about donating again for Friends for Scouting and of supporting
this well meaning program as a volunteer.
Iam tired of always hearing that we should support scouts as a church and then
getting bent over time and again be it FOS, paying $3.00 for a merit badge, or
going on a guilt trip because I wont be scout master again for the 3rd time. If
the berthern are so concerned about our youth, why not go with the "duty to God"
program, that has little overhead and is actually inspired. My guess is that
the BSA will just hand out a bunch more "silver antelopes" to some church brass
and this thing will just blow over.
I'm throwing my voice in with all the outrage. Expensive and a waste of time,
its just about time they shut Boy Scouts down. I remember being forced to join
as a kid too, and having to go to my "meetings" while my friends were all
experimenting with narcotics under the high school bridge. So sadly I can say
because of Scouting I never used drugs. Down with Moore! Down with Scouting!
Up with X-box & narcotics!
Anonymous, I can tell you how we can support Scouting without supporting Friends
of Scouting. We do it by donating our time, money and resources into a program
even though we may not particularly like it. We accept the callings and then
spend our own money on the boys behalf where we know 100% of it is going
directly to the boys. We pay money to support our local troop activities and pay
for our childrens activities directly out of our own pockets and do not rely
upon general fund for our boys support. The only reason we do Scouting in our
family is because it is part of the LDS program in the United States. When we
lived in Venezuela we did not participate in scouting because it is not part of
the LDS program there. I can tell by this board that there is some huge
confusion between the Gospel and Scouting. I can assure you I can get a temple
recommend and attend the temple with a clear conscious if I do not buy scout
popcorn or donate money to FOS.
The big difference in the LDS troops and non-LDS troops is the desire to be
there. If only those boys and parents who want to participate in Scouting are
there and they are committing the time and money for the activities, than it
works and you may feel that you are getting your moneys worth by paying the high
salaries. The difference in the Church is people are called as leaders and they
may not even like the program to begin with. In addition, you have boys that
have no interest in the program that do not want to be there. I am an Eagle
Scout and I hated the Scouting part of the program the whole time I was in it.
All my merit badges/patches are still stapled to the cards they came on and I
will NOT put on my resume that I am an Eagle. Now I am called to work in a
program that I did not like when I was a youth and I still do not like it.
Because I have a testimony of the Gospel of Jesus Christ does not mean I have a
testimony of Scouting.
I have never liked scouting. True. I have donated every year. True. I will
NOT be doing it anymore. True. This is my personal decision. I am fed up with
elitists. I am fed up with the growing gap between the haves and have nots. I
will continue to feel this way until the trends that are destroying the middle
class are reversed. I am angry. No amount of arm twisting using "church
persuasion" is going to change my opinion. I have made observations and made my
own mind up. I do not blindly follow. I never have.
The Council needs be more transparent. I often thought that atleast a part
SME/FOS funds were put into an endowment or trust. For as long as we have been
doing SME/FOS the council could have a sizable endowment with which to finance
its activlities by simply setting aside a portion of SME/FOS or making people
aware that they can donate to the fund. The major problem with scouting is
that it is lead by lifelong professional Scouters. I am not sure what Mr.
Moore's bachlors degree is in but judging from his age and time with the scouts
he does't appear to have any real business expirence outside the scouting
program. Considerable expirence outside the BSA should be mandatory in order to
hold such a high position with in the BSA. It allows for new ideas to be brought
in to the organization and provides perspective with which to make good
managment/financial decisions. Sadly it appears that the SLC Council has lacked
practicle business expertise and the vision to see the great goods it might have
done had they really been "prepared".
Where did the author learn statistics? I am not sure what is scarier; the bad
comparisons made in the article or the fact that so many people in the threads
above were swayed by them. Example:The highest paid
professionals in Utah are OB/GYNs. However, to compare their AVERAGE
compensation with the compensation of the TOP executive in an organization is
ridiculous. For those who failed statistics (as the author must have), an
average (also called mean) is found by adding up all the salaries and dividing
by the total number in the group. Unless every single OB/GYN earns an average
salary, this means that some earn MORE than average. My guess is that some earn
a LOT more!I have an idea, compare the average salary of all scout
professionals in a district with the highest paid OB/GYN. What, does this sound
ridiculous? For that matter, compare the average salary of scout
professionals with the AVERAGE salary of any profession requiring a college
I know all of the local scouting professionals in my community personally. They
are dedicated to improving Scouting in meaningful ways. These are people who
devote on average 60-80 hours per week including evenings, weekends, etc.
leaving their families at home. They work on salary (i.e., they dont get paid
more for working longer hours they dont get overtime) in dingy offices on used
office furniture. They consider eating at Wendys on a business trip excessive.
These are NOT people who are in Scouting to get rich.Several of the
professionals I know have put in decades to Scouting service; slogging it out
year after year dealing with whiny Scout leaders who refuse to attend the
training meetings they put together or participate in the activities they help
organize. Some of these professionals have advanced degrees and have walked
away from careers where they should be earning 2-3 times what they are paid. Did
they do this to get rich off of the contributions made by others? Hardly! They
did it, and do it, to make a difference in the lives of young people.
I think its important for them to pay the executives that much. It brings
continuity to the process. Also, I would want to be paid that much if I had to
where those green pants as part of my full-time work.
I could tell they were not Scouts but when they could not get a fire started to
warm themselves in humid weather, I always asked if they wanted this Scout to
help them start the fire:) Everyone wants to change Scouting but it usually
comes from those who do not understand it or have the vision of Scouting. Pres
Hinckley said that our boys need to learn knots be/c there are so many knots
being unraveled in our society and they don't know how to tie or keep the knot
tied. Priesthood, Gospel, and Scouting go hand in hand. Maybe your experience in
scouting doesn't fit your Mormon gospel myth but if you keep trying with an open
heart it will be revealed to you. Comparing teachers to scouting is ludicrous.
TEachers are paid through forced monies (taxes) and FOS is voluntary. It proves
again that when people donate to good causes, the money multiplies. When people
are forced to pay (taxes) for gov't things, their desire to donate drops. And
don't talk about accountability. How many millions were just spent by teachers
unions to defeat vouchers and you cry about your pay when your union has $ to
Why are no comments after 8:27 a.m. this morning coming up??? The number of
comments keeps increasing, but when you click on the link, it doesn't show the
last several at least!
Why dont we talk for a moment about the source of funds in a council. In most
councils FOS is a small portion (25% or less) of the total revenues used for the
councils operating budget. Much of the average councils revenue comes from
endowment earnings (interest on investments). Many councils are supported
heavily by sales Popcorn. In Utah, people have been too cheap to
give to the endowment fund. While the UNPC is the largest council in membership
and units, its endowment fund is the smallest in the country! People would
rather pay FOS than make a meaningful donation that will last into
perpetuity.We also have a problem with selling Popcorn. For every
dollar of popcorn sales, Trails End Popcorn gives 1/3 to the unit and 1/3 to the
council. Many councils sell hundreds of thousands of dollars of popcorn a year
representing as much as 50% or more of their operating budget. In Utah, we are
looking at less than 3% of operating budget from popcorn sales. Our units would
rather pay for Scouting out of budget funds and FOS. Would we be
whining about executive salaries if only a small % came from FOS?
I am so grateful for LDS leaders who have vision, the Spirit, and don't listen
to the barking dog as the wagon rolls forward. Do you honestly think Thomas
Monson who has sat on National BSA boards for so many years didn't know about
these salaries? Grow up. At last years scout camp, I was so grateful for the
volunteers and the paid staff. They did so much for my boys that my ward would
never have been able to do in its present non-volunteer attitude state.
Obviously many are not learning what Scouting is or the skills required to run
it or the skills learned by both leaders, parents and boys. I taught
Communications MBadge this last week, Personal Management the week before, and
sat in on others. We are going to visit a local city council meeting this week.
I will have Scoutmaster conferences coming up followed by Boards of REview. What
changes needed to take place to account for the changing needs? MBadges have
changed almost yearly to be updated with computers, job skills, etc. WHile in
the US Army, I had many seargents tell me that the Army was not Scouts. By their
Because scouting is still endorsed by the Church, I will continue to support it.
I will support the local troop to the best of my ability, and continue to
participate in their fund-raising activites, etc.My son hated scouting,
but participated because otherwise there would have been little or no
association with other members in our mission field area. He had excellent men
leading him that he respected, admired and still does. They are still his
friends today.The GA's support scouting, but to my knowledge they
have never made it a good membership requirement, or a commandment, that we
donate to FOS (we don't have that in our area). The only amount we are required
to donate in order to receive a temple recommend is a full tithing! The rest,
Fast Offering, Humanitarian fund, missionary fund, Perpetual Education Fund,
local, community and national charities etc. are purely voluntary, and will
bring with them their own rewards.No member should be told they are
not supporting their Church leaders by not donating to FOS!!! Does the Church
'punish' the Bishops/Stake Presidents who do not make their quota? Who provides
the pressure to fill this amount?
I have been in Scouting for 28 years. It is a great organization and my boys
have benefitted greatly from Scouting. I must admit having a husband
working 60 - 90 hours a week for 24 years and not receiving any compensation but
a layoff does make Paul Moore's salary way off base. My husband was making
under minimum wage for his time. Pay our council executives what they are worth
and not misuse the funds to pay the top end. If he can make better money
elsewhere, then I feel he needs to go. I know a GSLC secretary was
paid a whopping $5 hour when she retired and would have been paid double that
amount in corporate America. What makes his job more special than someone who
does all the work? If this was the corporate world great, but this is a
non-profit organization and relies on donations from outside sources. I am not
pleased with how our hard earned money is being spent. I'm totally for
Scouting, but it needs some URGENT attention and evaluation. If Marty Latimer
would have been paid that amount he never would have left. GSLC you need to FIX
When I grow up, I want to be as cool as you.How did you become so
condescending?What's your secret, man???
You've just got my last donation to FOS. Also the United way uses in excess of
70% of the moneys raised to fatten someone's pocket book.
There is little doubt that executives of BSA are highly compensated, as are
executives in many different non-profit organizations ranging from Churches to
charities.And there is an ongoing debate about the ethics of such
disproportionate compensation - the huge gap between the compensation of those
"in the trenches" and those in the executive offices.Forbes reported
in 2004, "The heads of America's 500 biggest companies received an aggregate 54%
pay raise last year. As a group, their total compensation amounted to $5.1
billion, versus $3.3 billion in fiscal 2003."This gap is a measure
of social stratification and instability as the gap between the rich and the
poor increases to levels that begin to stimulate disenfranchisement among lower
classes, calls for reform, rebellion, and ultimately revolution.Most
Christians generally, and active LDS in particular, understand that this
fundamental human inequality is not consistent with the doctrines of Jesus. The
repugnance they feel when reading about overpaid Scout leaders is a trustworthy
ethical sensibility that should not be ignored. As a "lower class" of society,
we must be ever vigilant in monitoring those in (economic & organizational)
power over us to ensure human equality is not lost.
Are your non-lds unit parents paying tithing and "generous" offerings?
Supporting a missionary? Maybe the well gets a little dry sometimes. Scouting is
a worthy cause. There are hundreds of other worthy causes out there that could
also use support. The district camp comments above struck a chord.
I've only been to a couple of week-long events, but I never saw an adult leader.
The place was run by kids, with maybe a mid-20s older kid in charge. I don't
have a problem with scouting, but let it be for those who WANT to be involved.
Like several others, I too was a scout master for 3 years and am still involved
in our local group. I will be thinking very hard come next fall when the money
plate gets handed out. There are many other organizations that I am associated
with that could use that money as well. The amount being paid is way too much
given all the people that have to really sacrafice to make scouting work.
Those saying the ward CORs should vote and demand this and that. HA! Are you
serious? As a bishopric counselor, the COR is high enough on the food chain that
he can put a guilt trip on 10-15 other people in the ward to help him beg for
money, and he is someone that most ward members will cough up money for when he
appears on your doorstep. Other than that, he exists to take pressure off the
bishop and to support the stake leaders. I can imagine the phone call from the
stake to the bishop if a COR started agitating. "What the HECK is he doing?
Doesn't he know he is letting us down?" Yeah. Good luck with that.
Nice to see people defend scoutism. But the basic issue here is not the possible
value of that program, but the outrageous salaries paid, while the money comes
from donations under pressure.Next, from a worldwide perspective,
the Church should not support any more the boy scouts program, which anyway is
mainly limited to the U.S. We need the same, strong, worldwide Mormon program
for both boys and girls in all countries. If some parents still want scouting
for their children, or weekly gymnastics, or foreign language clubs, or
whatever, all right, but not tied to the Church.
Whether you like the scouting program or not (I do by the way), I think it is
wrong for LDS wards to take on the responsibility of fund raising. It should be
the BSA. I'm not here to bash scouting. I think it's both a worthy
and useful cause. For the past 12 years my wife and I have been heavily
involved as volunteers in two states where we've lived. I have glady given of
my time and resources to support scouting. I've used my vacation days for years
for scout camps etc. I've absorbed costs personally because I knew there was no
ward budget to pay for them. I have no regrets. It's been done for
the boys in my wards including my own sons. I'll continue to volunteer.However, Friends Of Scouting doesn't and never has felt right to me. I
think it's wrong for our bishops to plead for support over the pulpit (I've done
the pleading from the pulpit by the way). I think most people who give think
the money stays in the ward - it doesn't. BSA should take over
this activity. It's the right thing to do. I'm convinced of that.
Your comment is a powerful argument for separating LDS sponsorship from the BSA.
Let local units of committed volunteers and boys do it. I couldn't agree more.
Let's take the priesthood authority compunction out of the equation. All in
Why can't the boys work for their funds. Wouldn't that be a great way to teach
them the scouting ideals. My father never allowed us to participate in fund
raisers. However, from age 12 and up, we were expected to mow lawns in the
summer, rake leaves in the fall and shovel walks in the winter. Hard work will
create more "character" than any program. At age 14 I was a dishwasher at a
restaurant near Cottonwood mall. I rode my bike to and from work, and I lived 5
miles away. My brother did the same. Neither of us became Eagle Scouts, but we
learned a lot more from the value of hard work our father taught. And now as an
employer, I'd much rather have a kid that can work, than a kid who has merit
badges.I find it ironic that the church worked to clear out
panhandlers from downtown, but has no problem sending them around my
I think that we should be careful not to equate support for scouting with
sustaining our LDS Church leaders...They are not the same.The church
has changed it's programs many times to try and fit the needs of the members at
the time. If Scouting fails to fill the needs then the LDS Church leaders will
no doubt modify or abandon the program. This would leave the "Scouting is an
inspired program" crowd in the cold. (...or maybe the opinion that our leaders
are uninspired?)Also...I do not believe that having an opinion
concerning the BSA (pro or con) constitutes apostasy. I have an opinion that
our chapels are too bland and our meetings are boring and un-engaging. I still
go and still have a conviction that I am in the right place.(Couldn't we at least have a picture of Christ in our chapel?)
"The voting membership of a Boy Scout Council, including SLC, is composed of
"Chartered Organization Representatives", of which each ward or Stake has at
least one. If these people actually go to meetings and vote, they decide the
direction and budget and everything else about the local Council, including the
membership of the Executive Committee and other groups that make salary
recommendations."I would guess that most of the COR's don't go to
the meeting. If they do next year, I hope they cut Paul's salary in 1/2. If we
loose him fine. Scouting is worth the money. But we are waisting it with
salaries over $100k.
It's wonderful that your boy has been able to get scholarships to college,
but...it seems like your attribution of that to scouting might be a
little stretch.How about the role of his parents? This is a big
thing for you and your boy and surely you had some part in it.How
about the role of genetics? A child with trisomy 21 (for example), helped
through the scouting program, will still not benefit in the same way.How about the role of the school he went to, whether it was public, private,
or homeschool? Surely the college took his grades and classes into account.I agree that scouting, applied properly can result in a huge net benefit
to a boy. But it is just one factor. And I believe the role of money in
scouting today could be looked at separately from the actual historical theory
"Hey Laman, can you believe Nephi wants us to tear ourselves away from our big
screen TVs, fancy cars, and big houses - and write a $50 check once per year to
support Scouting? I know our dad (the prophet) asked us to do it, but this is
ridiculous. Let's go tie Nephi to a tree and smite him with a rod for a while,
OK?"Murmur, murmur, murmur, murmur, murmur....
I don't understand why the church uses the Scout program the way it is currently
run. There are limited funds for all other organizations so that all the money
can be dumped into Scouting, and then we are still bugged about fundraisers and
have to buy the costly books,uniforms, etc. for our boys. Surely the church can
come up with a better program that wouldn't be costly, just as is done for other
church programs. Those who wish to be involved in Scouting can do it on a
community level just like other extra-curricular activities and we can stop
using church funds and sponsorship. That is sacred money and dedicated time
that we put into our callings. It just doesn't feel right. It seems to go
against how our church is normally run.
The reason LDS Scouting units are dysfunctional is because there is great
disinterest by LDS members. Look at successful LDS units and you see
leaders/families that support Scouting. If there is no support or interest, then
the program stinks. That's why my son and I are in a non-LDS unit. It functions
well because folks want to be there, get the necessary support, and we pay our
$140 to FoS because we see the program for what it is.Yes, these
senior execs are making big bucks. Think how much experience they have, how many
years they've been in Scouting. In a typical company, who makes the big bucks?
Is it the new guy who has been there a couple years, or the guy with 20-30
years?The DesNews does a fine job of sensationalizing this pay
issue. Their goal is to sell product, and big stories is how they do it. They
don't tell you how FoS is broken out, or the breakout of donations to other
charities like the United Way or ARC. Pay is only one part of the FoS picture.
Do some research into the whole picture and learn where the money goes, then
If our highly paid scout leaders are performing plumbing, garbage or snow
removal duties, they are not the managers that should be making 6 figure
salaries. While this was said to indicate how committed they are to the
program, it also shows that they have a broken organization. If they are the
great managers that they seem to think they are, we should have a council that
is efficient and well run. Anyone who has had to register scouts, advance
scouts, purchase awards for scouts or participate in scout sponsored camps
realize this is not the case. I have always overlooked this believing that
they were doing the best they can on very limited resources. It is now clear
that they have the resources; they are just not going to the scouts, but going
to the leaders instead. This is a poor use of trusted funds. I have been
mislead. You cannot continue to ask for more money until you can demonstrate
that you have been a good steward over the money you have previously received.
Shame on the professional scouter as they try to justify these ridiculous
salaries and the poor service we have received in return.
I feel badly for those who volunteer their time, but I have never been asked for
as little as 2 Big Macs per month (much more).Until these salaries
get in line, I'd rather have my 2 Big Macs.
This should be extremely embarrassing for the executives of the scouting
program. I am applauded by the ridiculous salaries being paid to scout
executives. I am also sadden by the message this sends to other volunteers and
the scouts themselves. This is a classic example of leaders losing sight of
the very goal they are trying to foster. Look at the Scout law. A Scout is
thrifty, looks like they failed on that one. A scout is Trustworthy, the
leaders may be technically trustworthy they are certainly are not very
forthright in their disclosures. We have been told for years that professional
scouters are paid minimal salaries. This comes pretty close to being dishonest
to me. A scout is Loyal, try selling that to the scout master who is working
full-time to feed his family and giving hours and hours every week and vacation
time to take boys on scout camps. We cannot have leaders saying one thing and
living another. That is what is happening today and unless it is corrected it
will cause the entire program to collapse. The values of scouting are self
evident, however the organization is broken. Please correct it before it is
My first impression of the negative comments is that they are all from a bunch
of self-righteous and I dare say sacriligious LDS members who are acting like a
bunch of Pharisees. They have no true understanding of what is taught in
Scouting. And for those who make the excuse that they didn't get much out of it
as a youth, I'd venture to say they didn't put much into it. As an Eagle Scout,
Scouter, and current Priesthood Leader, I can tell you first hand that the
experiences that these boys can have is worth every bit of the money we spend on
it. The amount of financial support that LDS units provide to the councils is
such a small percentage of the whole that those who said they would no longer
contribute should be ashamed of themselves. Do the words "follow the Prophet"
mean nothing to any of you anymore? He and the rest of the brethren support
Scouting and that is the reason why it is a part of mutual. For those of you
that have forgotten that, go back and read Amos 3:7 and D&C 1:38. We haven't
forgotten that in the "mission field".
@a local volunteer:Yeah, it's about money, remember that the money is
being raised from those who can barely afford it. The big issue is
the absolute hypocrisy of Scouting. We teach the boys to "pay their own way",
but the executives (with our help, through FOS) are scamming little old widows
who want to help the boys.
How can you support scouting without supporting friends of scouting? Where is
the money supposed to come from? Most of the guys who make $50,000 have
probably been there at least 15 or 20 years, and $50,000 is not very much money
to provide for a family on. And big deal, the guy over scouting for the ENTIRE
STATE makes $200,000. If you want the best people to run your programs, you've
got to be willing to pay for it, which is one reason why Utah has such a hard
time holding on to good teachers. Get rid of scouting and you're going to have a
hard time finding a good program to take its place.
To SE Idaho:I audited the GAs for several years, so I'm a little
more informed about their compensation packages then the fabled few.The ignorant masses here are falling for the old envy game socialists have
played for years. The Deseret News wants you to vote with them next election for
their favorite socialist and the easiest (and oldest) way to get the public
upset is with the unfairness of higher pay.See today's article on
college presidents' pay. Think.They want Joe Sixpack (part of the
ignorant masses--those who don't think, but go along with the others) to say
it's unfair for someone else to be making more than him--and vote with those who
promise more taxes on the wealthy and more welfare for the poor.That's the agenda. You fell for it. Thus, my reference to your being
ignorant.Have a good Bolshevik day.
Scouting was not built on prophecy. It is a secular program that the churh
aligned with. Nothing more.The lord has never asked me nor
commanded me to give to the FOS.As patriarch of my family, after
much prayer and fasting, I have recieved inspiration that with being blessed
with just two daughters, I am to no longer give to FOS (as I HAVE been doing
because I "thought" it helped the boys in the ward) and will spend it on my
daughters ballet and soccer, which will help them build grace and character.Sorry FOS, this giver has been inspired another direction, and the words
of the lord's prophets back me up, as they have made me patriarch over my
family.I hope you ("Scouting Supporter 12:11 a.m.) are willing to
accept the words of the lord's prophet and back me and others as we continue to
pray for and recieve guidance for our families.
I have lived in many places thoughout the US and have seen the scouting program
in mant areas, as well as having my sons in scouts.First, scouting
isn't for everyone! However the Church's programs should be. The focus should
be on the child, not the program. (Read Conf talk by Elder Oaks). When the
program is failing more boys than it is helping, its time to get rid of the
program, scale it back so that only those who want it can have it, and develop
something that will work.When a ward uses compusion and guilt to force
boys (or their fathers)into scouting then they are WRONG, no matter how noble
they think of their cause.Also, for those of you who start quoting
prophets and apostles, be careful who and how you quote it! These men are only
expressing their opinions, as scouting has NEVER been included as a revelation
to be put in the D&C nor is it a requirement for salvation.
Bonnie said: "I think that people who don't give to FOS are plain CHEAP....
People who don't give money to charity are just covetous and selfish"I say: "I choose which charities I support. I resent you saying that my choice
about supporting FOS (one of thousands of "charities" in the USA) makes me
covetous and selfish. If this is the mindset of professional scouters and their
families (which you appear to be), it's no wonder that so much anger flared up
when the DMN provoked this discussion."Here's my solution for the
issue of people being pressured into supporting FOS: don't ask for donations
anymore. Make the boy scouts work for any money the program receives. And I
mean work (washing cars, mowing lawns, etc.), not selling popcorn. This is more
in line with the original goals of the scouts. "A Scout works to pay his way and
to help others" (from the Scouting Law).And for Bonnie: "A Scout is
a friend to all....He respects those with ideas and customs other than his own."
(Even those who don't like FOS?)I doubt we need to scrap
BSA but how about a good close look at FOS?
let the BSA be what they want to be without the financial pressure of making the
LDS Church happy (as complained by one professional scouter in this post).At the tiem for the Gay Scoutmaster Supreme Court Case, I was living in
Southern California and an article came out in the paper saying all the pressure
of keeping the gay scoutmaster was coming from the LDS Church. Otherwise, the
case would have been settled and there would have been gay scoutmasters in the
BSA.The days of Fred MacMurray and "Follw Me Boys" are gone and the
days of the scouts becoming an inclusive liberal organization are coming soon
(when all of the LDS monies dry up, the high-paid executives will look to other
sources for their checks,(heaven fobid they give up the Escalades and the BSA
Bling), and scouting will be sold to the highest bidder (sorta as it is done
now).I see a whole new emergence of the BSA ober the next few years,
and the sad thing is the greed to the "thrifty" organization brought it all
down.Thanks again to the DMN for their illuminating article. Now we
have informed choice about FOS.
As long as the Church uses the Scouting program for the Young Men, it should be
supported. But does supporting and funding our local scout troops
also include the FOS? I believe that President Hinckley said at one point that
"quotas" for FOS were not to be made. Over and above tithing and
fast offering, ALL other contributions - Humanitarian fund, Missionary fund,
etc. are purely voluntary and not mandatory, or a requirement of being a
faithful Church member! Not contributing to FOS does not mean we do not support
or sustain our Church leaders! A great many people donate land,
properties and money to BSA. Many others leave endowments, or legacies in their
wills. Income from investment of these funds could be used to compensate
Professional Scouters. I do not know enough to comment on whether or not they
deserve their salaries. I can see where the perception that FOS funds being
collected to pay these salaries could be very upsetting, particularly where
Bishops, Counselors, Scoutmasters, and the Scouts are going out and pressuring,
lightly or not, everyone in the ward to donate.
All this about money. As a district volunteer who has done FOS, I see budgets,
I see FOS directly benefiting boys and do not begrudge salaries.Why
difference in attitudes towards FOS? Our goals are the same per boy take total
budget, divide by total boys to determine cost per boy. $140 last year. Set
goal at 50% of that or $70.Our presentations to non-LDS units What did
your son get from Scouts last year? Worth the cost of 2 Big Mac meals a month?
These families see, experience value. The families of the participating boys
in blue collar units in even our poor neighborhoods see the value and far
exceeded goals. PLUS support Scouts through popcorn sales with 33% going
DIRECTLY TO THE BOY.Same goal formula for LDS units but the stake raised
less than half of their goal and, even though SLC OKd popcorn sales, do not
support that either even though the same 33% would go DIRECTLY TO THE BOY for
HIS effort.Why the different outcome?And where can you get free
training? Low cost camps (look around at other camps)? It is a BARGAIN for my
Recently, I spoke with my sister who lives in a ward where the scouts put the
flags up on holidays and then take them down.Only here house is the
only one that doesn't have a flag.Why? She feels like raising 6
children, and as a stay at home mom, living on a very tight family budget, she
can't afford the $20-$40 donation each year to raise scouting funds.I love scouting, but believe there our leaders should set an example and
receive compensation that is equitable. I am troubled that too many
of our organizations pay their executives handsome sums of money when families
live paycheck to paycheck and struggle to make ends meet.I love the
scouting program, but thinks there should be a review of where the money is
going. I believe there are retired and experienced scout leaders who could lead
the organization on much smaller salaries.
I feel the nerve touched by this article isn't envy or jealousy, but faith. The
BSA asks a lot from people who serve because of faith in God and Church, who
otherwise might admire but have no inclination to join the BSA. BSA bureaucracy
has been a burden to many unwitting LDS adults, who accept scout callings
because of faith, but find they must attend many more meetings than the Church
requires in almost any other ward calling, almost invariably to discuss and plan
the self-perpetuation of the BSA and its programs, not the spiritual well-being
of boys. They are asked to demonstrate loyalty to an organization that while
good, simply is not as powerful as the Church to which they are devoted. As a
Primary scouter I wanted the boys to love the Savior. Time spent weekly helping
boys make birdhouses, etc., helped accomplish that in some small way. But
monthly roundtables made the service a burden. Monthly pack meetings are a
family burden. Scouting is great, but maybe both organizations can better
achieve their objectives by shaking hands, thanking each other for their mutual
contributions over the decades, and parting ways.
How about a comment on the bad use of statistics in the article?Lets
compare the AVERAGE salary of the top-paid profession in the state (OB/GYNs)
with the top salary of an individual in a single organization. Do
you understand what an average is? You take ALL the salaries, add them together
and then divide by the number of people being averaged. This means that at
least some (maybe even more than half look up the difference between mean and
median) make MORE than the average. Oh my!Why isnt everyone up in
arms about the obscene amount that OB/GYNs earn? Or physicians, or lawyers?
The article said that the beginning salary for professional Scouters is $2K LESS
than Utahs average salary. So why arent we upset with the average employee for
earning more? Why dont we try this: Take the AVERAGE salary
of a professional Scouter and compare it to the average salary of nearly any
other profession that requires a college degree. Then lets talk about inflated
I serve as a Scouting volunteer. I was not called to serve I volunteered. I
know all of the local executives intimately. They work 60-80 hours per week
including nights, weekends, early mornings, etc. for next to nothing. Some of
them gave up jobs where they could be earning DOUBLE because they care about the
boys they serve. During the summer, in addition to their regular duties, they
oversee Scout Camps where they work from 6:00 am to midnight every day around
95-100 hours per week on average. They do this year after year after year.
Why? To get rich? Hardly. They drive their own cars hundreds of
miles a month to remote areas mostly beat-up second-hand cars because that is
all they can afford. They consider going to Wendys on a business trip to be
excessive. They work out of offices filled with used office furniture that has
been donated. These are not volunteers. They are professionals with college
degrees, families to feed, student loans to pay, etc. I dont know what you do
for a living, but I doubt you put in as much time for as little compensation as
the average professional Scouter.
To those LDS members out who don't like scouting or think that the church should
drop the program; perhaps you should visit the official church website at
lds.org and conduct a search. I typed in "scouting" and got 1571 hits of church
leaders endorsing scouting. I also typed in "boy scouts" and got 984 hits. It
appears to me that the church fully intends to use this program for a very long
time. For those of you who think that the general church officers
do not understand the so called high level of compensation for the very top
executives (entry level executives are compensated poorly to modestly) you are
very mistaken. President Monson is the longest serving member on the national
board. He is instrumental in selecting the National Chief. Furthermore, other
church officers are directly involved in the finances of Utah's councils and in
the selection of their top executives. There are multiple
quotations from church leaders endorsing the scouting program. They even go as
far as to say that it is an "inspired program". Why do we have such a difficult
time accepting the words of the lord's prophets? We should support scouting
I am disappointed in all of the ranting. The objectives of scouting and the
means of reaching them are sound. The quality of local units depends completely
on the families and leaders in the unit. Local leaders who can inspire the youth
have an amazing impact on young men.I don't know what the
professional scouters do, and I don't really care. The ideals and methods of
scouting are good enough reasons to support the program. It isn't perfect
because no human, nor-human run program is.Each boy, each parent,
each leader, each person should do their best and let the consequences fall
where they may. Learning the ideals of honesty, setting goals and reaching them,
or organizing and leading are a few things scouting offers. Many boys will gain
from this and many will discount it and squander the opportunity. Just like
students in school. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them
Your remark... "In 1994 I started my career making $23,600 a year. Today I make
just under $70,000. I feel I have earned this salary, and know for a fact that I
could be making well over double that in a for profit company doing what I do."
...struck an entitlement cord to me. Perhaps you should leave professional
scouting and attempt to earn $140,000 with your skill set. An attitude
adjustment might be in order for you. These few comments come from a parent who
is tremendously proud of his two Eagle Scout sons. The people that provided
great role models for them did not come from the ranks of professional scouters,
but rather from volunteers in from our ward. For at least two of these men, your
idealized income of $140,000 would have been a pittance in each of their cases.
I'm grateful for your service, however, I believe your sense of entitlement is
That's nice that your Scouting contributions are more than your tithe. It's
also nice that your kid has a scholarship. But, NEWSFLASH...the vast majority
do not have these luxuries. For me and my family personally, we struggle to
make ends meet, and then we are browbeaten into donating to FOS. I'm a huge
believer in the values of Scouting, but I absolutely will not donate one more
penny to FOS. Find another way to pay professional Scouters. Scouter
Man and Dad...I have absolutely no problem raising my arm to the square and
sustaining our beloved Church leaders, and holding a current recommend. I
support Scouting, but I will not support FOS ever again. I am simply looking
after the best interests of my family, we don't have the luxuries you do. FOS
is certainly NOT a matter of consecration--you are WAY OFF BASE on that comment.
I find it highly insulting and pious. I'm doing everything I can to provide,
and just b/c I will never donate to FOS again makes me no less of a devoted
Church Member than you.
I don't know whether to laugh or cry at the comments condemming scouting.I live in rural Washington, and yet some of our CEOs of companies
smaller than the Great Sale Lake Council make about the same amount as Paul - so
no, I don't think he is overpaid.I hope that everyone who is bashing
the church's support of scouting has the guts to go to the Conference Center
next General Conference and raise their hand in opposition to the church leaders
who endorse Scouting. Its easy to be faceless here and write, but lets see some
real courage.For a number of folks like me who are ardent scouters
(unlike the claims of some who have written here) FOS is but a small amount of
what we consecrate (Any LDS remember that word) to scouting. My Scouting
contributions are greater than my full tithe, and I will continue to do so as I
have seen the program benefit youth across the world.My
"contributions" have more than been made up due to my son's $60,000 college
scholarship based almost entirely on his scouting achievements.I'll
be watching conference in April to see how much courage is present!!!!!
Do the memories of my youth fail me? How sad when another bubble
bursts to expose the greed of man...
Dave, Why the insulting tone?To be blunt, I've known a
few GAs. Their compensation is modest. Most of the benefits you were
mentioning are myths. What I'm trying to figure is why your are
implying that the LDS church leaders are the ones being sneaky.The
real issue is Scout Execs. Is there salary justified given the source of funds?
The answer, overwhelmingly, is no.
From the crow's nest perspective- My son was called to assist in the scouting
program in his ward. He was asked if he was and Eagle Scout. No came the
reply. Do you regret it?, he was asked No he replied. Please don't tell the
boys was the response. This non- eagle is a returned missionary practicing law
and raising a righteous and loyal family. I'm proud to have him sit with me in
the Crow's Nest...
Bonnie, I tip a good waiter, waitress, hairdresser and pizza delivery guy quite
lavishly. I appreciate good service and I try to compensate them as best as I
can. That is PRECISELY why I never donate to FOS.
I am an eagle scout, I have been a scoutmaster, a young men's president twice
and the Bishop of two different LDS wards. I love the principles of the scouting
program. There is a correlation between a strong cub program and a strong
scouting program and a correlation between becoming an eagle scout and serving a
mission. Two of my son's are Eagles and my third is on his way. But here
is the problem WE have. We are living a lie. The prophet told us not to set a
quota for Friends of Scouting more than a dozen years ago. Yet our scout leaders
continue to push for more and more money. If my stake president and
bishop ask me to I will continue to donate to the Friends of Scouting, because I
sustain them and intend to keep my word. It is just sad that the men who dress
like boys seem to find more value in money then they do in being trustworthy.
I find all of the negativity towards the Scouting program sad. I am a
scoutmaster and love the program. When run correctly, Scouting
blesses the lives of youth. In this day and age, video games, ipods,
televisions and cell phones rule the lives of our youth. We are raising a
generation of youth that have little to no social skills, are doped up on
prescription drugs because we think they have problems, have no leadership
skills, learning skills, problem solving skills, don't have many positive role
models and don't have many positive experiences.What these boys need
is a group to belong to that will teach them how to be men, how to be leaders,
how to be good citizens, how to be friends, how to solve problems, and most
importantly, self-worth through accomplishment. These youth need
positive role models. They don't get that from the socially backward lives they
are living. They don't get that from gangs. A well run Scouting program can
offer these things to youth.The key is a "well run" scouting program
staffed with leaders who are teaching the boys to lead and then allowing them to
lead, and who want to be there.
The scout leaders of my teen years were some of the finest men I have known. I
still visit them. One, a Harvard trained Ph.D. chemist took my friends and me
for two weeks into the High Uintas every year. Other leaders were professors,
doctors and artists. The stories of these leaders' experiences in war and
in life told under a canopy of summer stars as we sat around a dying fire were
far more memorable and informative than anything in a merit badge book. These
brilliant men condescended to baby sit us teeny-bopping brats at their own
expense. By so doing they rendered added depth to our lives. They were
volunteers. I do not recall them wearing uniforms. I recall nothing from the
corporate world of Scouting. What I do remember is their care, commitment, and
devotion to duty. On their honor they did their best to serve God and to help
others. I was blessed to be one of those "others." Their service had nothing to
do with any office, administration, or bureaucracy it was an extension of their
religious devotion. Is that perhaps what Robert Baden-Powell had in mind when he
started the Boy Scouts?
In general, the professional Scouters I've worked with over many years as a
volunteer have been overworked and underpayed. They work ridiculous
hours - including most weekends and evenings - and are basically on call 24/7,
especially when at camp spending their summers away from family. As
for Mr. Moore, seems to me his salary is right on considering the scope and
importance of his work.
The vast majority of church leaders who deal directly with young men
(Bishoprics, YM leaders, Stake Presidencies and others) devote a great deal of
time to their callings and take seriously their responsibilities to the youth of
the Church. It is very dis-heartening to see them have to deal with the
bureaucracy and never-ending paperwork and training of the BSA when a more
Gospel-oriented program would be of much greater help to our young men. Most
young men don't have much enthusiasm for scouting. Those who do could still
join a local troop outside of the Church. Most people I have seen who work
within the scouting program see it more as a chore rather than a calling to be
I haven't donated to bsa for many many years. I asked years ago for a break down
as to how my money was spent and knew most of it went to overpaid executives in
plush office buildings. If it went to the hardworking local leaders to pay for
carpet cleaning, gas, or valium (wink, wink) I wouldn't have a problem with it.
My boys didn't like scouts and they are all returned missionaries with Temple
recommends. Scouting was not the be all end all people make it out to be. I
hope the church ends its affliation with this group that seems to have more than
its fair share of pedophiles that prey on trusting young boys and their naive
Not wanting to support lavish lifestyles in the name of "the boys" is why i will
never donate again.Unfortunately...they just cashed my check for
this year. I am so disappointed to hear this. I too have never
heard of the "discount". NOBODY has ever offered me a discount and our ward
exceeds the "requested" amount every year.I do feel like a sheep.
My bishop was asked to go to every house in our ward to ask for money for FOS.
He did. People that had NO business giving...gave! And why? Because he asked
them to. When the Bishop says give...people will always give.Shame
on the FOS executives who shamelessly took advantage of this ward relationship.
My Bishop is sick to his stomach over this.I'm going to print this
article and mail it in with my next donation of $0
Huh???You know how much (or how little) the GA's make?Guaranteed, you would probably be surprised how little these men are
compensated in this life.They all take a cut in pay to work for the
church.Get a clue before you post...
BS of A said: "Making more than the Vice President of the United States.Sorta like a "five pound bag of Manure"...No matter how you
shake it, it's still five pounds of manure."BS of A, You should look
at the whole picture and not just the slanted report from the deseret news.
The salary comparison chart shared by the Deseret News is
disingenuous. The article shared the total compensation package of scout
executives including salary and benefits. Whereas the article only shared the
salary of the President and other elected officials. If you included all of
their benefits including lifetime pension, food, travel, security, and other
items it would be in the millions.
I think that people who don't give to FOS are plain CHEAP. They are probably the
same people who don't tip their servers at restraunts, the pizza guy or when
they get their hair cut. Any charity usually has someone working behind the
scences to help strengthen the organization. They should be compensated for
their time and effort. Why is the BSA any different? The point of donating
money to a worthy cause is not to be so concerned about "what's in it for me!"
but the benefit of others it can help. The GSLC manages millions of dollars of
assets each year. The compensation that employees receive is not that much of a
percentage. I'm glad that we have such qualified inviduals managing the in and
out of our money and I know that it is going to a good cause.I also know
for a fact that every professional DE or SDE contributes at least $250 to FOS
each years and many have donated $1000.00 to local endowment funds. Higher
executives give much more. Like I said earlier. People who don't give money to
charity are just covetous and selfish
The voting membership of a Boy Scout Council, including SLC, is composed of
"Chartered Organization Representatives", of which each ward or Stake has at
least one. If these people actually go to meetings and vote, they decide the
direction and budget and everything else about the local Council, including the
membership of the Executive Committee and other groups that make salary
recommendations.If they don't go or vote, they are de facto agreeing
to the salaries, budgets and audits. I think a big problem in corporate America
[profit or non-profit] is the lack of true accountability by the "Board
Members". If the only people who come to vote are the boss's friends and
cohorts, then no one is holding them accountable.
Making more than the Vice President of the United States.Sorta like
a "five pound bag of Manure"...No matter how you shake it, it's
still five pounds of manure.
Wow! Comparing our Church leaders to scout executives. Now that is just plain
crazy. That is the trouble with many scout supporters. They think the BSA is
part of the Gospel, and it most certainly is NOT. Pay all you want to your
beloved BSA, and FOS, but don't force me to do so also. Programs of the Church
come and go, and I hope the time will soon come for the scouting program to go.
Comparison with 4-H is not good since most 4-H agents are supported by tax
dollars. In fact some counties assess a separate millage for extension, of which
4-H is a part. Agents are also backed by the land grant university. Scouting rarely files for government grants with all of the paperwork and BS
required of federal grants. With all of this said its amazing that
scouts can support executives where taxpayers can support similar positions with
tax money. Competition becomes the driving factor.As an eagle scout
and an assistant district commissioner, I support the district and council
executive salary structure.
Beginning professional scouters, as mentioned in the article, are paid about the
same as teachers. And I believe teachers are underpaid for what they do.People who work for not-for-profit organizations pay the same for groceries,
clothes and gas as everyone else. Pay should be comparable.Salaries are
set by the local council executive board, as are the budgets. Get a copy of
your council's budget to see how the funds are spent, and communicate with your
board representative about your concerns.
Floopster -- my understanding is that GAs get in the $80s. Trying
to compare these salaries to the that of the church's is disingenuous.Are you another professional scouter family member?
Floopster | 5:19 p.m. is absolutely correct.It seems inconsistent
for many of these comments to be condemning these Scout executives when Church
leaders are in a similar situation.
I'm not sure that all those complaining realize that the COR in each ward,
usually a member of the Bishopric, has a vote on their Council Board and if they
don't like the budget, including the salaries, they can vote against it. Having
served in Council and District positions as well as currently serving as a COR I
rarely see any LDS CORs attending these once a year meetings where they would
have an opportunity to have input. Just like politics, it's easy to whine and
complain, but when it comes to actually getting involved to make a difference
most are just happy complaining.By the way President Thomas S.
Monson is the ranking member of the National Board that also approves the
National Budget and the Chief Scout's salary. Maybe those whiners should think
again the next time they are asked to sustain him. It's mind boggling to me
that so many are willing to badmouth a program of the Church endorsed and
supported by living Prophets.
I'm sorry more of you did not know Scout leaders like John Oldham, Jay Pfeiffer,
Fred Biggers, Russ Barr and Larry Boice. I recall with gratitude and fondness
the many lessons they taught me and my class mates. Any amount of FOS
contributions are a pittance and would hardly make an interest payment on the
debt I owe these decent and dedicated men.I suppose there will be some
shifting in focus after this article. Perhaps there should be. It is good for
any public non-profit organization to be transparent and be examined in the
light of day. Afterwards there will be those who will use the past as an
opportunity and excuse to not donate. But those who recognize the true value of
a local Scounting program will do as they have always done; put a little extra
in the FOS envelope and still contribute to the local Scout Troop in multiple
ways. My hat is off to all of those grat souls... but espcially to John,
Jay, Fred, Russ and Larry. Also to Mary, Sister P., Penny, Elva and Susan. God
bless us all to see clearly, speak softly, express gratitude and give
generously. Shalom, rhp
The First Presidency, the Quorum of the Twelve, and all other GA's are paid and
paid well. Yet, we as members of the church donate many hours each week as well
as 10% of our income.If you ask me, giving $50 to $100 every year
towards Friends of Scouting will help a decent, private organization continue to
do good for us, for our children, for our communities and for our country. And this is coming from someone who hated Scouting!
Now that the 'SECRET' salaries are out ... it is time to 'clean' house in the
scouting program. The local council PR representative, Kay Godfrey (455-0758)
said he stands behind everything our council leader said and for his enormous
salary.The justification given for the salaries is that "its not our
fault", the Scout Executive Board okayed these salaries. Well ... then it is
time to FIRE this board and put men and women on the board that understand what
a fair salary should be!For our leader to justify his salary because
he carries many hats including "carrying out the garbage" and that if we don't
pay him that he will go to another state .... this is arrogant and outrageous.
The whole scouting SALARY program needs to be scrapped but this will
only be done if everyone lets the Executive Board know their feelings. I have been involved in scouting for over 7 years. I sacrificed my
holidays to help the boys setup flags so they could earn money ... but to hear
that the main leader received a million dollars is hard to sacrifice anymore.Please contact the Scout Executive board today!!
As a professional scouter, yes we do contribute generously to FOS. Yes we are
out there collecting at scouting for food. And, we do often serve in unit level
positions in scouting. We even pay for our own uniforms.
This year I spear-headed the FOS drive. Our ward boundaries have numerous
low-income apartments, all of which were visited for donations. How horrible I
now feel for rounding-up their money to support salaries of such magnitude! If
this Moore guy would cut his salary in half, it would fund the costs and camp
fees of hundreds of scouts.
Do scout executive ever volunteer any of their time to scouting? Do they
contribute to FOS? Are they collecting food for Scouting for food or are they
making money everytime they are in (overpriced) uniforms?
Mr. Casting Stones alleges to be a "professional scouter" but has serious issues
with LDS Scouts and their leaders. It appears that his prejudice against LDS
scouters outweighs his interest in helping the boys.The LDS church
is scouting's biggest fan!LDS money goes to help these sp called BSA
"professionals?" This summer I got the same feeling of prejudice at
a BSA camp in Nebraska. I guess my impression is now confirmed. Sad!
May one say that its not the salaries at issue, its the fact that Church members
feel forced to contribute to those salaries out of a sense of obedience and
devotion to the cause?What I find irritating is the pressure applied
to local congregations by the Scouting organization to meet the goal set for
them by the Scouts themselves. Failure to meet that goal results is a great deal
of additional pressure to measure up.
Sadly, I'm not too surprised by how much they are overpaid. I was in cub
scouting for quite a few years and loved helping the boys achieve. I have
always thought that the costs for supplies, awards, etc were outrageous,
especially for a "non-profit" group. For the BSA to charge $20+/$35+ for youth
& leader shirts, $6.50 for handbooks, and the list goes on. When I first
started in cubscouts the cost to go to Camp Kiesel was only $10, it subsequently
went up almost yearly until now it's $18!! When asking why the increase every
year, the reason given was that they needed to do improvements at the respective
camps. Camp Kiesel has still not been upgraded! The bathrooms, camp store, etc
are all in various states of disrepair. When I talked with another leader who
had started in scouts 25+ years ago, they were also appalled at the way the
costs have gotten out of hand. For years after they first started,Camp Kiesel
cost $5 per person AND included a hot lunch. Now the costs have skyrocketed and
you have to bring your own cold lunch. I think the IRS should be looking at
revoking their tax-exempt status.
What a way to destroy a family -- having the father be a professional scouter,
spending 60-80 hours a week at his job. If this job requires so much time, why
not split it up into 2 or 3 position, and split the wage accordingly. If these high-paid scouting professionals do so much, they sure don't let
anybody know about it. It would be reassuring to know they they are actually
worth what they are being paid. And for that matter, how do you even determine
My opinion... Take scouting out of my ward programs and there will be a lot
happier young men, parents and leaders. Scouting is such a divisive issue that
it should not remain a mandatory part of the YM program. It causes too much
contention, and in my opinion, the Duty to God program will better prepare YM
for serving in the Church, in their communities and serving others without the
incredible expense to the families and church. I support my scout leaders 100%,
but when it comes time for service, fund-raising, etc., it's always the same
leaders (accepted callings) and the same few YM who are interested or forced
parentally. To me, it sets many young men up for a feeling of failure if the
Eagle is not achieved. I support it but don't push it. But that's just me.
President (not Elder) Dahlquist was on the selection committee that hired Paul
Moore. He saw the value of what Paul Moore could bring to the scouting
organization. Any program that is important and has value deserves to be
funded. President Dahlquist sees the value of this program. He has been called
and set apart by a prophet of God. Shouldnt that be good enough for us a s
faithful church members? If you are that upset about improving scouting for the
better maybe you should pray to gain a testimony of the principle?
Holy Cow! Or is it Holy CASH Cow!? The Scouting program is an American
institution that has contributed for decades to the development of fine young
men. I know, because I raised 3 Boy Scouts. But this article has proven to be an
alarum to the citizens of the State of Utah. Thanks for sharing the
over-inflated income of one executive, but I care too about the young men in
Utah to allow this to disuade my measly $25/yr donation. I am grateful that I
can easily afford to made such a donation -- even knowing that $20 of it goes in
Moore's pocket. The other $5 is the part I and the Boy Scouts really value.
It is too bad that some of the time this man spends earning all his money isn't
spent teaching scouts how not to get lost in the woods. The training of the
"scout masters" seems to be sorely lacking as compared to other states, such as
Perhaps Elder Dahlquist also needs to distribute the memo mentioned earlier -
The scouts in troops under the guidance of called Scoutmasters account for more
than 50% of the death and serious injuries nationwide, while less than 20% of
the total BSA membership is LDS.Mr Fisher - Who is bloated & busted?
Is it the church member entrusted with the health, safety and development of
our sons who is putting the boys at risk?Complain about the money -
In my predominantly LDS district the non-LDS families contribute more than 250%
more, per registered boy, than the LDS families do. It is the non-LDS family
that financially supports the program for the LDS boys.Our district
volunteers (LDS & not) spend twice as much "problem solving" time with LDS
leaders - And the professional does even more than that.I know part
of issue is there are SO MANY TASKS for the Ward to manage, and simply not
enough members. That carries into Scuting, too - you cannot always call the best
to be the Scouting leader - BUT WHY does the church NOT CALL THE BEST to prepare
the yong men for mission (eg. Scouting!)
My contributions to scouting each year as an Asst. SM and Deacons Quorum Advisor
are in excess of a thousand dollars. The boys and I are going to start building
us a composite/wooden 15' Bruce Devlin designed boat. We have the plans and will
have it done before summer camp. I will continue doing what I do because I
believe in boys, but no more funds will be going to FOS.
I have attended many scout functions with my son and have served in
LDS-sponsored units in scouting. The first thing I learned was to distance our
program from the BSA. The BSA-sponsored camps are usually poorly run and always
corny. The Jamboral in Fillmore, UT was an epic disaster (not enough water and
far too many boys for the available activities). I have personally seen more
than one "professional scouter," those earning 50K+ of Friends of Scouting money
each year, lose total control of a group of boys. They seldom exhibit the
personality or skills for a professional life in scouting. We found success by
reinventing the program on our own to make it palatable to our boys. We avoid
their camps and their workshops; it is easier to just go to a state or national
park. Our kids still progressed just fine in advancements. But what
21st-century teenager wants to run around in paramilitary gear pretending that
it is still 1950, that there is a frontier to be tamed, and that racist
stereotypes about Indians still pertain in American life? By the way, our
ward's FOS assessment is more than the entire YM budget.
I highly recommend anyone involved in Scouting (as well as those who are sitting
on the sidelines complaining) to read Brother Thane Packer's book ON MY HONOR: A
GUIDE TO SCOUTING IN THE CHURCH.There will always be those who sit
on the side and complain - Scouting is no different.I think
Scouting, if run as the BSA and the President have presented the program, is a
great benefit for the members of the quorum. It acheives the goals of
leadership development both in Scouting and in the Church. But,
like anything else, if you CHOOSE not to follow the recipe, do not be surprised
is the results are not what you wanted. Make a cake without the flour, eggs and
sugar - and what do you get? It is NOT a cake - so DON'T COMPLAIN that it does
not taste like cake!(There is a great Scoutmaster Minute about this
point - Check it out!)
Elder Dahlquist are your reading all of these? I hope you or someone else at
Church Headquarters is taking notes. Scouting is bloated and it is busted.
Fascinating. I come from a council outside of Utah. I can tell you I would be
thrilled if the LDS would pull out of Scouting because the LDS church rules
Scouting at the National level with an iron hand. Changes that would benefit
the organization tremendously are vetoed by the LDS church. As a result of
program and organizational catering to the LDS church, the appeal of Scouting
to non-LDS church members has substantially diminished. From the comments I am
reading, it seems to be a lose/lose.
Sad that you paint "lifetime professionals" with "Silver Weasel".The
Church itself has endured many scandals - Should the Church be painted as a
"House of Scandal"?Church members have been convisted of child
sexual abuse - Should there be a "Silver Groper" award?Sad that GOOD
PEOPLE have to read YOUR postings and feel the hatred you (supposedly a church
member) show others. And the "general public" then equtes YOUR attitudes as
representing the church.
The LDS Church is trying to keep the cost of missions down and help pay for more
missionaries in the 3rd world. Why not take the money spent on manditory scout
registration and use it to pay for more missionaries worldwide? This seems a
possible better use of church funds to promote the spread of the Gospel and the
mission of the church.
For all those reading these comments, consider this:Read each
comment in the spirit for which it is written. If it is negative and
mean-spirited, just delete it from your brain. These poeple are murmuring
anyway against something they have no testimony of. Only read the comments that
offer solutions, not pettiness. They certainly don't complain about all the
tithing money that pays for church worker salaries, and what do they do?I heard a story recently about a stake that approached the Scouts about
how to increase their missionary percentages 18%, and the Scouting professional
coached the stake leaders to implement the program with training and activities
(roundtable) at all . The stake responded that their percentages increased to
38% in a few months. Sounds like Scouting is still relevent to me. The corporate side of Scouting runs like a business and probably needs
improving. Hold their feet to the fire, and ensure the services they promise
are being met. The best way to do that is to GET INVOLVED and change it from
the inside. If you don't have time, don't complain, don't donate, but surely
don't destroy the good program that it is.
The individual who posted YOU REAP WHAT YOU SOW is so right! He had been in a
good program with parents and leaders with good attitudes - and guess what
experience the boys had??? A GOOD ONE. Imagine that!Then you have
Camp Little Lehmi issue - where the LDS youth had indecent contact with boys,
whose "issues" preying on boys was known by the Ward and Stake leadership who
RECOMMENDED HIM to serve at camp WITH THE KNOWLEDGE of his abuse - at least
twice - Church recommends the known abuser serve on camp staff - abuse continues
- and who is primarily blamed... The BOY SCOUTS.You know, there are
plenty of issues to go around.No program (inside Scouting or
outside) has been good when participants are mandated to participate as YM
are.And before you complain about "BSA registers EVERY BOY, whether
they participate or not" - The SLC Church MANDATES the registration. The BSA
national, locally and the boys and leaders in the local troops would be better
off WITHOUT those quorum membersh who choose not to participate.Too
many "fake" Eagles, too many dangerous situations - Why does the LDS church
allow this BEHAVIOR?
From President Hinckley's talk "Slow to Anger" that he gave in General
Conference last October, "Once a man who had been slandered by a newspaper came
to Edward Everett asking what to do abou it. Said Everett, 'Do nothing! Half
the people who bought the paper never saw the article. Half of those who saw
it, did not read it. Half of those who understood it, did not believe it. Half
of those who believed it are of no account anyway.'"
Lambasting those who serve as professionals seems to be the order of the day.My experience as a professional being away from my family for 2 months each
of the last 3 summers to manage a camp, gone a min of 4 nights a week. And
compare the cost of Scout camp to any other week long camp. No comparison
Scout camp is LEAST EXPENSIVE.While at camp and at district activities I
am responsible, accountable, for health and safety of the boys. Including
health and safety of LDS boys whose LDS leaders drive through campsites (driving
around no vehicles past here gates), who flagrantly violate safety rules
regarding bringing firearms, who allow boys to ride in beds of trucks violating
rules and laws, who bring generators, DVD players and TVs with R rated movies
for their quorum boys to watch, who have boys with less than 60 days tenure in
Scouts receiving merit badges that require more than 90 days to complete, and on
and on. Tesponse of the Ward and Stake leaders to these issues of health,
safety and integrity: Mr. Professional, that is YOUR problem. Lets watch
the stones we throw!
It looks like its time to add a new award to scouting for lifetime
professionals: Silver Weasel!
I think that they should get paid what they can. I hate scouts personaly, but
my boys love it. It is a good program and helps boys become men, they should
receive more than the president. As should teachers, moms and dads that
lovingly raise children, people who work with the elderly, and other service
oriented organizations. Why begrude the profesional scouter?
It seems a major issue here is the fact that the LDS church has so much
authority over what happens in the church units. The Catholic Church is the
second largest supporter and user of Scouting (and it is not the official church
youth program), and each Pack and Troop has to stand on its own and is not
regulated by the Church.The local council board sets the budget, which in
most BSA councils is published. Attend council meetings if you want to see
change. Find out who in your area serves on the Executive Board, and let them
know your concerns. Also, funding in most councils is not raised the way it is
I will not criticize Mr Moore or any other employee of the BSA doing their jobs.
I love scouting and the scout oath, law and motto. They have helped me mold who
I am and I try to live them daily in my life. I do believe however that in
an organization like the LDS church we have the resources to expand our Duty to
God program with several different fields of emphasis. We could interest a
broader spectrum of young men and women, at a much better use of funds. Apply
the amount of money we raise from FOS, registration fees, purchase of badges and
what we collect from families to go to BSA camps now, and imagine what we could
do with that amount of funding combined with so many who are willing to
volunteer to help youth. As for camps, what a wonderful mission call that
could be. I believe that many within the church would even consider donating
land for the camps knowing there were not millions used up in overhead. This
would bless the lives of both our young men and young women.
choosing whether or not to participate in FOS does not indicate sustaining of
the brethren. Last time I checked participation in FOS had not yet reached
BYU prof, I think you're full of it. We have several very active families who
just don't do scouting. We respect that and work around it and thank heaven not
everyone in the ward has the guts to take that stand.Of course I
believe the leaders of the church know how the BSA is financed. But what bang
for the buck are you talking about? What percentage of units attend a district
camp? They do "support" FOS but very carefully. We get a letter from our stake
president asking us to give. How about a letter from the First Presidency asking
the members to open their wallets for FOS? Telling us it's our responsibility as
active members of the Church to donate generously? If it's there, I guess I
missed that memo. I love how half of each bishopric training
meeting with the stake is taken by the stake counsellor over scouting telling us
that the BSA needs us to do this or that. Who's the tail and who's the dog in
BYProf2 -- The YW run just fine without executives making six figure salaries
and compensation packages. The YM would work just fine with the Priesthood and
Duty to God program. I had hoped it would replace BSA years ago when it was
My sons aren't scouts, I am not a FOS and I still attend the temple.Many of the young men in our ward lost their virginity on scout trips when I
was a youngster.
This is an insult to every volunteer leader worldwide.I grumble
every year I write the 'Friends of Scouting' check. And to think I
just made out a check from our Stake for over %5,000 for re-chartering. This on
top of the 'Friends of Scouting' money. Certainly the LDS church
could find a better way.
My four boys are all eagle scouts and I attribute that to their mother and to
their scout master. I saw little help from the professional arm of scouting. I
did see the elaborate expensive building in the Phoenix area. I did see adults
receiving many many awards (get rid of the adult awards and save bundles of
money). Do we really need the professional scouters?
Those who are trying to argue that it is inappropriate to criticize Scouting
because of its tie to the Church need to look deep inside their souls.That same exact thought process led to the family of two boys molested at a
scout camp here in Southeast Idaho to be driven from the area. After the
molestation was reported, many in our area tried to hush the victims and their
families -- arguing that it would hurt Scouting and that Scouting was church
approved.Of note, our local church leaders have expressly disclaimed
that kind of defense.Scouting is an organization with great ideas.
Scouting today is in the grips of a group of greedy professional bureaucrats who
are more concerned with their paycheck than the good of the boys. Look at the
comments posted here by those who obviously benefit from these salaries. Sick.
Thanks Morning News. I've printed a dozen copies of your story and emailed a URL
to all my friends who have been tapped by FOS over the years. I am posting the
story on the board at our local LDS ward and Stake Bldg. for all to see.
There's no doubt that the scouting execs work hard long hours and are good
people. The question is, can the work be accomplished in a different manner. A
1/3 cut in salary would establish 3 decent positions to handle many of the
shortcomings people are writing about while redistributing work to a reasonable
level that allows a personal life. A 3-for-1 trade.
Dear BYUProf, I just got my temple recommend and there was no question about my
support or lack of for the scouting program! Nothing. Zip. Zero. FYI...alot of us actually think for ourselves and can make develop sound
opinions and make judgements based on what we see.
To BYU Prof. you obviously have different questions than I did as a bishop.
Failing to support FOS will not jeopardize that I think in all things you are
too serious in this.
You really cannot compel every YM to be registered. You need a parent's
signature (as well as the scout's signature) on the registration form.
I'm tired of the pious bloggers using the lame argument "the Prophet supports
it, so get with the program" (read WOW). It is just a great program, but has
nothing to do with the gospel. Other than Canada, the Church does
not use BSA outside the U.S. for its YM's program even though many countries
have scouting. A Fantastic alternate program is used. Remember, there are more
non-U.S. chuerch members. BSA has become too bureaucratic, too
expensive, it doesn't appeal to enough youth, and the Church already has a
better program in place that is used in the rest of the world.Unfortunately, having the Church pull out of BSA would really hurt a great
program that historically has served so many so well. Maybe it is time to
consider phasing out of BSA. I'm sure Church leaders have had discussions to
All those of you (who are LDS) who've indicated you are now withdrawing your
support of FOS need to let your bishop know of your intentions, and then be
prepared to surrender your recommend to them, as you apparently no longer
support the brethren --unconditionally-- as prophets, seers and revelators.The brethren STILL support BSA and FOS, or did I miss some memo from
SLC?You had better believe that the Brethren know EXACTLY how BSA is
run (financially, and otherwise.) The church employs specialists at HQ who
regularly conduct financial feasibility studies, verifying that the church's
support of Scouting/BSA is STILL the best bang for the buck, and which would
cost the church MUCH more $$$ to run a similar/replacement program on its own.
The brethren are NOT oblivious to all of these issues, as most of you seem to
think. You are very, very blind to all the internal goings-on if you think the
Brethren are not completely and totally "on top of" all these issues.Let the brethren do their job, and stop counseling them how to run the
Kingdom. You are treading on thin ice!
A number of posters have said what a positive experience scouting is. I have no
doubt that some have had and continue to have positive experiences. By and
large, however, those going through scouting are not experiencing ANYTHING close
to the ideal imagined by scouting's supporters. The problem is NOT due to
uncommitted local leaders. Repeatedly I've observed, for the good of the boys,
local leaders attempt to make a poor situation better. I have to imagine that at
some point the Church really does have to make the break with scouting. There is
just too much at stake.
Being outside of Utah and not in a stake/ward/state which does the FOS, I am
still wondering how this FOS drive works. Who makes it mandatory for the local
stakes/wards to participate, the local council (and how do they do that?) or the
LDS church? If a ward does not meet its 'quota' or its 'donation' is
unacceptable or not enough for the BSA, what happens? Who chastises them - BSA,
the Church leadership or what? What happens if a ward decides it does not want
to participate? Isn't a donation by its very name a voluntary offering,
whatever the amount?
I live many states away from Utah and here, the wards are compelled to register
EVERY ym under the age of 18. Scouting is not scouting when it's mandated. And
scouting is not scouting when you have fat cats sitting on the kitty litter
while local "volunteers" babysit boys who don't care about scouting. I've never
understood the reason behind compelling boys to take part in scouting when the
LDS church is built on free agency. I've pulled my boys out of a Church
troop and put them in a community church. The program is much better and the
boys and leaders WANT to be there. They will become Eagles because of their
desire and work and not because some church leader gives it too them to make
them FEEL like they've accomplished something.Maybe this will help in
making the overall change needed to ensure the integrity of both organizations!
Executives in non profits can and do make good salaries. I personally don't
have a problem with BSA executives making a nice salary, with one caviat. In
most non profit organizations the executives are responsible for fund raising.
In Utah at least, that burden is placed upon the local LDS congregation. That
in my opinion is wrong.All ties between the LDS Church and Scouts
should be severed. If the program is good enough it will succeed upon it's own
merits. Also, if the leadership in BSA is worth their salaries they will find
ways to survive and even thrive without the LDS Church forcing their youth to
participate.If Scouts is worth the investment in time and resources,
let the free market decide, we don't need to have this crammed down our throats
If you're thinking that "pennies by the inch" is a worthy charity....think
again.Your pennies are being donated to IHC - one of the most
powerful and most protected health care corporations in the country. It's time for the Church to let BSA and IHC do their own fund raising.
I've got it! I have the answers! I have always wondered what it was those
dedicated mothers in the Book of Mormon did to raise the 2,000 Stripling
Warriors-- NOW I KNOW They gave to FOSW (Friends of Stripling
Warriors) I need to tell the world!!!
I believe you get out of scouting what you put into it. The principles that are
taught and the benefits that can be gained are great. That said...I
think it is arrogant and morally wrong to expect one person to volunteer his/her
time and hard earned money (i.e. gasoline) to go "beg" for another individual's
salary. That is why the BSA has to use so many gimmicks regarding the SME
(sustaining membership enrollment) drive, later called "Friends of Scouting,"
and this year's "Fund One Scout". BSA needs to find another way to raise this
money or simply ask their execs to live on less. Because it is morally wrong, it
naturally creates a HUGELY negative response. No one complains about burning gas
to gather fast offerings because it is based on a morally sound objective. And
because it is, it doesn't need a cute name to get people to participate. The
"Collect Money For Mr. Jones' Salary Down At The Scout Office Fund Drive" just
doesn't have as nice of a sound as "Friends of Scouting" does it? They can pay
what they want, but should do away with SME/FOS as a means to get the money.
Rachael your comment about the young women programs not getting the same level
of funding is spot on. I have two daughters (age 17 and 11) who, interestingly,
expressed the same feelings about how maybe their programs would get more money
if scouting were dropped. I did NOT prompt their comments. I had no idea they
felt this way...I feel bad about that. I have always given to FOS and supported
scouting, but never liked the program. It was way too complicated, and
honestly, by about age 15 the boys simply lost interest in it. Some boys never
cared about it (about 1/3) and simply stopped coming. I'm not sure scouting is
accomplishing what the LDS church wants it to accomplish. It may even be
I really would not mind his salary if we got a good product. The council
website is a mess and I still don't have the refund for items paid for that we
never got becasue of computer problems. If they have enough money to pay that
salary then I think we can expect better services (better bathrooms at East Fork
of the Bear). I have no problem with the scouting program and I hope is
survives despite the fact so many people feel the way they do on this issue. It
is just sad that he receives such a high salary when the services we get justify
an Executive at 100k per year. Please don't destroy the scouting program!!!!
I have been Scoutmaster or an assistant in four different troops and am
currently serving in one because I care about boys. Being an ex bishop I prefer
the Duty to God program over scouting. I personally will no longer give to FOS.
I was a collector for them this year. BSA is DOA and the program is entirely
bankrupt except for the bloated salaries of its bloated leaders. Time to move on
Everytime the friends of scouting drive arrives, I hate the feeling it creates
in our home. "How much are we asked to give this time?" is always the dreaded
question. As a family who has only daughters, I hate it. The young women don't
do this and we would never want them to. It feels just plain wrong to feel
obligated to contribute to something that our family never sees or even knows
where it is going. Something is just not right when the bishopric members,
stake presidency members or anyone else asks for money that is not even overseen
by the church. I gladly give donations to others charity causes such as pennies
by the inch, etc. It's the compulsary feeling that FOS gives that bothers us
the most. I also hope that the Church can find another way besides the BSA to
have meaningful activities for the young men.
Lets pray the church drops BSA and goes with Duty to God. Everything we do in
the Church is supposed to point to Christ. Even as we pretend that Scouting
does this (and it doesn't) it (BSA) could be sued by the ACLU for officially
striving to do so.
If anyone in a position of influence in the LDS church reads this I would like
to plead with them to pull our church funds out of Scouting. Statistically we
are losing our young women in larger numbers than ever before, but we still
expect them to run their program on a small fraction of what the Scouting
program "tithes" from faithful members of the church. We support our leaders'
decisions because we are the faithful. Please make a better decision that will
not be such a trial of our faith to support.
The fact that the BSA is more "big business" than I ever would have imagined is
very troublesome to me. I think there are better causes out there that I should
be contributing to. I don't want my dollars going to pay that kind of salary.
I believe it is completely out of touch with reality...sorry BSA.
The Young Women's program is run by volunteers, and they have a great
program, often more successful than YM/BSA ever dreamed of being.Why
does the YM program need a professionally-operated "business" to serve as its
activities arm? It doesn't! We need mothers, fathers, and neighbors grounded
in the gospel. We do not need so-called "pros" with six-figure salaries to
create a program on how to raise our children.
It seems that many people are concerned at how over-worked this poor
professional boy scout is. Maybe it would make more sense to cut his job
description into three pieces and hire three men to do it. They could each get
a third of his ($214,000) pay, or $71,333. This way thay would all have time
for their families, and they would even have time to be scoutmasters of their
own troops to stay in touch with the realities of scouting. If three men
could not handle the workload of this exceptionally gifted scouter, we could
consider paying 4 people $53,500 or 5 people $42,000. This would make much more
sense -- especially if they have to resort to snow shoveling!
My LDS ward came a begging for $$$ for scouts. Since my husband was temporarily
out of work and funds were extremely tight, I politely told them "not this
year." The bishopric member went away but called back and talked to my husband.
The ward got their money and my husband got an angry wife. Just goes to show
that a woman's word isn't good for much in this church.
Why is almost everybody being a victim about how much money is going through
the Leaders hands? Did you ever stop and think how much value they are
producing? Exchange creates wealth. So what if they make more then our
president. So dose Bill Gates and look at the value he has created. If your not
happy with your life fix it, you have a brain use it. Turn it on. I'm not saying
go out and sell drugs or anything illegal that would be the opposite that would
be turning your brain off. Stop being a victim because somebody is making more
then you. You should read Atlas Shrugged it is one of the books that will help
turn your brain on and there are many more books out there. We have been trained
to think like socialist. We are Americans! Home of the free, living the pursuit
of happiness, do you want them to create all this value for penny's on the
dollar if that's the case. Then that is just above slavery. Value for value, you
can create any thing in this world. What is holding you back? That question is
for you to decide.
I attended boy scout camp with my son when he was a boy scout. We sat down in
the mess hall to eat, and the man in charge said that each table was to send a
scout to serve the food. The scoutmaster told my son to assign someone to do
it. My son said "I'll do it myself", and stood up. The scoutmaster said "SIT
DOWN, you are the patrol leader, YOU don't wait on THEM. Assign one of these
grunts to do it!". My son looked totally perplexed, but did as he was told.
These "professional scouters" are doing just what they have been trained to do
-- getting all the grunts to serve them. This is the exact opposite of what the
church tries to teach: "let he who would be the greatest be the servant of all".
I found that I had to try to UNDO what the scouts taught my son about
leadership. We as a church need to provide a better program for our boys. This
idea of trying to bend Babylon into something resembling Zion will never work!
I have been involved in Scouting for many years.The only time I see
the professional scouters is when they come to collect $$. On
several occasions when I needed assistance from the Council, I was treated as a
nuisance.The badges and awards are overpriced.There is
no benefit to the local unit of having a Council. From my personal experience,
the local units receive no benefit from the FOS funds.Time for the
Church to move on.The Duty to God program is superior to the
For those who are saying they'll never donate to FOS again, perhaps you should
apply the same standard to your tithing goes. I have yet to ever see an
accounting for how much money is paid out to LDS professional staff and
leadership...Professional scouters have a lot more to deal with than
the average volunteer scouter will ever be faced with. They deserve to be paid
accordingly if you want a quality program.One thing I do agree with
is abandoning the compulsary nature of LDS scouting for both boys and leaders.
I'd much rather have see boys earning their Eagle because it was a personal
goal, and not because the church (and by association, their parents) demanded it
I think FOS donations should stay in the unit or the ward. That way
contributors can see first hand if their donations are doing any good, and
adjust their donations accordingly. Scout execs could be paid
through profits at camps, etc. If the experiences and services they offer
troops are "worth it" the market can dictate what they charge for these
services. Local volunteers do the bulk of the meaningful work - we
all know that.In order for BSA to legitimatize itself, it has to
find a way to run profitability by some other method than having volunteers
canvass neighborhoods for doantions. It doesn't matter if their execs are
making one million or fifty thousand. Someone will think it's too much.Let BSA figure out what they pay their people by running it like a
business. Donors can still donate land and money to build camps, etc. BSA can
charge what the market dictates for participation and they either sink or swim.
I don't care what a scout exec makes if they make it through the profit of their
operation as opposed to soliciting little old ladies on social security. I like scouting - I HATE F.O.S.
Where will the LDS Church train leaders without the BSA? Local leadership is bad
enough as it is.
It has always bothered me about the amount of money I see going into scouting
and how little I see coming back to the boys. Camps are still expensive and the
30 Cent merrit badges cost alot more. TIMES UP! The Scout program
has outlived its usefullness. It Lacks the appeal and the capability to involve
the majority of the young men. It is time for change!!! CALL OR WRITE THE
COUNCIL!!! DEMAND AN ACCOUTING OF FUNDS AND INSIST ON CHANGES THAT WILL BRING
THE MONEY BACK TO THE TROOPS. The truth is that scouting is more effective on
the local level and that is where the money should be.
Having been a professional Scouter now for 13 years and a member of the church,
I can not believe the hate and scorn shared here. In 1994 I started my carrer
making $23,600 a year. Today I make just under $70,000. I feel I have earned
this salary, and know for a fact that I could be making well over double that in
a for profit company doing what I do. I am in Scouting because I beleive in
what it does for our young people and our communities. I think it rather funny
that people want to complain about what I make. Try walking a mile in my shoes
or another District Executives before you make your critisizm final. A Phrophet
of the Lord made the decision that Scouting should be part of our program.
President Hinckley has re-affirmed this in our day, just google his name and
Scouting and you will find his love and support of the program. Finally the
wisest man of all once asked a group of hecklers, who will cast the first stone?
I guess the stone here has already been cast. Go sit down with a Pro, then
make your decision.
The last time I checked, my boys weren't in Scouts because of how much someone
made or didn't make. They go to camp, and they learn and grow. It's an
incredible experience for them for for a $50 free-will gift I give. I wonder how much all of the detractors and complainers posting here would pay
for a positive experience for their? Maybe they should consider that the next
time they drop that amount or even twice that amount to send their boy to the
local amusement park.I have a couple of daughters I love and who I
want to be happy. I think a free-will gift, that might help a future son in law
treat them well, is worth it. So, go ahead and complain and overlook
what it is we are paying for. Spend your money on a day of rides and candy if
you wish. But at least come up with something better. We have plenty of
predictors of rain. How about building some arks. I'll give this year, and my
boys will be at camp. And I suspect they'll have fun a grow, because that's what
I pay for.Best of luck.
Glad to see my friends of scouting donation is being put to good use...
My earlier post never appeared for some reason. It wasn't abusive, offensive or
off-topic etc., so I am not sure why.I am active LDS and live in a
ward outside Utah and we do not have FOS, so I am not sure about some aspects of
the FOS.If a quota is assessed to a stake/ward and it is not
reached, what is the punishment/consequence? Also, it disturbed me when I read
that some wards have had their donation 'rejected' or 'returned' with a negative
response and told to raise more? When is a donation, of any amount, considered
an obligation?If a ward decides they will not participate in this
FOS drive, is it just BSA who is berating them, or does the Church weigh in too?
This comment is directly addresed to the author who wrote this one sided story.
Why didn't you ask Paul Moore how long he has worked for the Boy Scouts of
America to earn the salary that he so rightly deserves? Why didn't you ask him
how many nights his family didn't have him home for dinner? Why didn't you ask
him how many summers he spent at boy scout camp while his family missed out on
summer vacations? Sure maybe his salary does seem high for a non-profit. But,
I am positive he has earned every penny he gets. You did state in your article
the starting salary for a professional. Why didn't you ask any of the scout
executives how much their starting salary was? You have very dedicated
prosessionals and volunteers working to help the young men in our country. One
more question for you. Why don't you focus on the good they are doing for these
young men? I guess it is a lot easier to focus on the negative. This a
question I asked myself, "What must have been this person's scouting
It has often bothered me to see the amount of money headed in to the BSA and how
very little I see comming back out of it. Camps are Still Expensive and your 30
Cent bage costs a heck of alot more than it ought to. The 10% Gold Level
discount for meeting your Friends of Scouting quota is a Farce. TIMES UP! As Supporters of scouting we need to be contacting our leaders and
demanding a detailed accounting of funds. Scouting Provides some great benefits
but has failed to change with the times. Its time the money began to make its
way back to the individual kids and the program needs to provide them with
somthing they might more readily relate to in order to teach good morals and
values. CALL OR WRITE THE COUNCIL AND DEMAND ACCOUNTABILITY AND CHANGE!!!
A very common practice in our scouting district is for the ward to do a big
fundraiser at the beginning of the year - like a ward auction where people
donate goods and services - then auction them off to each other. Ward members
are told these funds are to support the YM and YW programs, implying they
directly benefit the youth. What isn't disclosed to ward members is that these
funds are also being used to pay the FOS quota. FOS feels like extortion. For
every dollar we spend in the ward on the boys, we spend at least one in FOS.
When you add to that the $10 per boy and leader that the church pays each year
for rechartering, it's a heavy financial burden. The church may have to abandon
scouting because of the sheer financial weight of it. Is there not a more
practical and efficient solution here? When I'm up in the hills above our town
with the boys, I'm really not sure what benefit they are getting from the BSA
It appears to me that the Central Wyoming Council has it right. If our FOS
goals are met our boys get to attend a week long scout camp at the most
beautiful scout camp 9 miles from the east entrance to Yellowstone (Camp Buffalo
Bill) for FREE! Yes that's right FREE! All meals included! Now that's puting
those FOS dollars to work! This also works for Cub Scout Day Camp. I was part
of the Trapper Trails Council in Ogden for years before my move to Wyoming and
grudgingly contributed to FOS every year and felt like my son's troop got
nothing in return. Since moving to Wyoming I gladly pay my FOS and see a return
directly for my boys.
Amen, you took the words right out of my mouth. I've got $2,800.00 from our
ward that I'll be turning in tomorrow night.I feel incredibly guilty
after reading this article and thinking of some of the widows on fixed incomes
who gave substantially.I've got 2 years to go but don't know if I
can do FOS again. Maybe I'll get released early.
Our ward in California does not have this FOS drive, or if we do I have never
been approached or read about it in the bulletin or from the pulpit.What disturbs me is the 'obligation' to fill a certain amount 'assessed' to
each stake/ward, and the reports that a first and/or second total ward donation
has been returned or rejected by the local council because it was not enough?Exactly what is the punishment/consequence of not meeting the
assessment? When is a donation unacceptable?
Instead of giving to FOS can I give to my local troop? Will I remember to do
that if they don't come around asking? I know that we would be happy to pay the
ward scouts good money to rake leaves (and we actually have done that), aerate
our lawn, paint, spread compost, reset the flags in our patio, etc., etc. There
is no reason to buy their gaggy popcorn or just write them a check. I say if the
scouts are going to solicit money for their programs and for their paid
executives, LET THEM WORK FOR IT!!! Themselves!!! Not under the direction of
some poor ward member who should be home working with his own kids!!!
Is the Scouting program perfect. Of course not. I only hope an article like
this makes the program even better.What other program can better
insire our youth to better serve God, Country, and fellow man?For
the Scouting program to work at any level, it requrires leaders with testimony,
training, tenure and time. If you are in or have in the past been in a Scouting
program that was not what you expected, the leaders were likely lacking in one,
or more, of these areas.Sure the article makes the salaries sound
like the dark side of Scouting. I for one will continue to support Scouting in
any way I can, including Friends of Scouting. If you want to complain about
value for your money, just look at the price of the Christmas toys they are
advertising. The Scouting experience will last a lifetime. How long will the
What is a boy worth? If we can save even just ONE from destruction of any kind
isn't it worth it? Scouting has saved many, and what's more, it is one of the
few value-based moral organizations left in the world today. If you want to
send your money to the federal government or to the trial lawyers association,
go ahead, but for me and my money, I will support Scouting!
As a lifelong church member who's been everything from senior patrol leader to
Scouting commissioner, I believe these are the relevant points:When
Moore said, "I've been in this BUSINESS a long time..." he got it right. For
him the purpose is making money, not serving boys, despite his protestations to
the contrary.A level of dishonesty has long pervaded Scouting. It's
reflected in boys having their merit badges passed off by Eagle-hungry adults
without the boys ever having done the individual requirements for that badge,
and it's reflected in Moore's claim that he works 60 to 80 hours a week. Moore
does NOT work those hours. That's 11 1/2 hours a day, 7 days a week, and it
doesn't count getting dressed, eating and driving to and from work.The real work is done by the ward-level volunteers. Council execs shouldn't
claim THEY'RE the ones serving the boys. It's dishonest.BSA has
high ideals, but nothing that isn't already encompassed by the Aaronic
Priesthood program. Scouting activities tend to focus on rank advancement and
merit badges. The character building is done by church leaders who would do it
all anyway, with or without the formal, costly, cumbersome BSA organization.
I think the article was well balanced. I don't think it was intended as a
negative for BSA. It was a statement of facts. Those who see it as a negative
saw Boy Scouts negatively to begin with. As for the LDS church, the problem is
that you call men and women to those positions in Scouting. Many simply don't
care. They just fill the position. That is not the fault of BSA. So, let's
say we eliminate scouting from church programs. Now what kind of a program are
you going to replace it with? How are you going to accomplish the same goals
with those young men with out scouting? I have been a Scoutmaster, had boys in
Scouting with good and bad experiences, and collected Friends of Scouting (which
I do not like doing). The problem is not BSA, the professionals work their
tails off, it is the leaders who just fill the calling and throw out a
basketball every week. The potential is there, but it is not being used.
For those saying we don't support the prophet if we don't support FOS, you might
want to know that the Church "Handbook" says the FOS drive is separate and
"voluntary" from other fundraisers for the youth. If the Prophet wants
supporting it to be part of our support of him, let's hear it from him at
general conference or in a First Presidency Ensign message. I'm an Eagle Scout,
former scoutmaster, and bishopric counsellor over scouts. Turned my money in
last night. Three more years to go. That's how I'm counting my time.
I am very divided in my support of the scouting program. I know professional
scouters, scout leaders within the church, the boys, their parents. We live
outside the Mormon Belt and many of us are making high professional salaries and
know what it takes to work in business or non-profits. Regardless of what the
scout leaders are paid (which in my opinion is in line with other non profits) I
realize that there are problems with the scout program and a lot of anger. This
discussion reveals what was already simmering and just gave people the "last
straw." The boys in our ward are very active in many different endeavors and it
seems like the ones that are more into video games are also the ones who are
more into scouting.And talking about the "familiar spirit" of
scouting (usually a term used with witchcraft and secret societies) gives me
pause in relation to scouting...What are they doing in those pack meetings?!?I also resent your insinuation that if anyone is not enthusiastic about
scouting, they are not teaching their children the values of work, patience, and
self denial. BSA does not have a patent on those virtues.
While everyone is complaining, those Scout Executives and other professional
employees are working to improve the lives of youth. There is no other
profession that does so much for the youth of America. Friends of Scouting is a
donation and last time I checked if you don't want to donate you don't have to.
On the other hand you don't have much choice when it comes to paying taxes or
your bills and plenty of people are paid from that, only their job does not
compare to Scout Professionals. Only those who are poorly educated would
believe all the negative statements in this article. Don't be the one that
believes everything they hear, do some research and find out the whole story.
One of the major problems is the way the LDS church conducts the Scouting
program, with high turnover of volunteer leaders because they are "called" and
requiring all boys to join. And then their is the way they raise the funds.
Scouting in 99% of the country is not operated this way.Remember, each
local Scout council is a separate corporation run by a locally elected board.
Address you concerns to them as well as the church.As a former
"professional scouter" I can say that many years my family qualifed for food
Alma 1:3 And he had gone about among the people, preaching to them that which he
termed to be the word of God, bearing down against the church; declaring unto
the people that every priest and teacher ought to become popular; and they ought
not to labor with their hands, but that they ought to be supported by the
people.I know that's probably a misapplication of scripture, but the
real issue is why we can't run a youth program based entirely upon volunteerism,
like the rest of the church programs. The money confuses everything.
I know BSA execs and their hours worked.Those writing these hateful
comments about their salaries could not keep up with their hours worked, time
away from home, and personal sacrifices to create an environment for kids to
GIVE SCOUT EXEC'S RAISES! Ask anyone who actually works with them. All the
whining armchair parents and leaders out there who question the value of
scouting or state that scouting is not interesting or irrelevant for their kids
have only themselves to blame. All you parents who are quick to satisfy
your child's wants for the next X-box or playstaion console/game should not find
it at all surprising that a knot tying demo can't keep your 12-year-old's
attention for more than 30 seconds. YOU HAVE CONDITIONED THE KIDS TO BE THAT
WAY!Teach your kid the value of patience, hard work and self denial
(something you must have missed out on)and you'll find a kid that finds scouting
fun and relevant at least until they turn 15, by then you have created enough of
a foundation that if the youth wanders away they will at least recognize the
"familiar spirit" instilled by the principles of scouting and will want to make
changes in their lives to get it back.Principles of scouting resonate with all
youth to one extent or another. You can't pay enough money into a program like
Here's an idea. I have known about these high salaries and mismanagment of funds
for some time now and have therefore not given to FOS for the last three years.
Here's what I do instead. When the local unit is doing their fundraiser, I
double or triple the suggested donation amount. That way all of my donation
goes directly to the local unit which is where the money is really needed to pay
for the high cost of camps, awards, and other activities.
Huh? Does this issue really merit this long of an article, which consists mostly
circular hand-wringing and rehash? This is much ado about nothing. Although I'm
not involved in scouting, it seems clear to me from the article that the
salaries are justified, they are independently reviewed and apparently on a par
with other councils and other youth organizations, given the increased level of
work and responsibility involved here. I am acquainted with one professional
scouter who recently left because the demands of the profession outweighed the
monetary benefit. He constantly worked evenings and weekends and had to travel
quite a bit. His young family saw little of him. Trust me, those who stay in
this profession don't do it for the money--they do it for love of the boys with
whom they work. The per hour pay doesn't amount to much. On the flip side, every
professional scouter I've ever known has been an extremely able, competent
executive, who could easily outearn their scout salary in the private sector.
I feel that those kind of wages are absurb. To think that the boys and their
parents and leaders have to beg for money so that our boys can be chartered thru
LDS church is outragious!!
30 years and counting as a volunteer scouter.I have concerns, but not with
the Scout program. The Scouting program is essential to teaching vital skills,
values, and lessons. To accomplish these teachings, we need leaders doing the
program as outlined in Scouting, teaching boys responsibilities. That requires
training. In posted comments about disinterested boys, as I once heard someone
say,'we don't have a boy problem, we have a leader problem'. When I say leader,
I refer to the team of support that should exist.I don't know any other
program our boys could be in that would teach every boy these needed important
values, and have fun doing it. In scouting, every boy is a winner if, the
program is run properly.Dispite my concerns, I have and will continue to
support scouting. Those that have voiced their non support of FOS, I invite you
to find another organization or program that can teach our youth these values,
and then give your time and donations there, because these young men need an
excellent program, like Scouting. God bless all the great scouters.
Many of you are unreal. This program takes a lot of work to run and these top
executives put in many hours beyond the call of duty. So tate away friends of
scouting money because these people work hard for their livings. And if you
don't want your kids involved in such a good program that can make these young
boys into great men then don't let them attend and request they not be
registered. The don't have to be and you don't have to accept a calling, but ask
yourself this - is that your attitude towards them attending primary and mutual
- the prophet see it as important as the others. Get real - this is a full time
job - their living don't they deserve to make a decent one as much as anyone
else in another profession. Would you turn that salary down if it was you doing
This is rediculous. I worked for Scouting as a Scoutmaster, Unit and Asst
District Commissioner, Trainer, Council Webmaster, and other positions.
Throughout all this time, I was told how little Scouting had and GAVE THOUSANDS
of DOLLARS to Scouting as an endowment and Friends of Scouting as I knew that
many Scouting units/members could not afford uniforms, books, camping, etc. I
left Scouting after being told that the ONLY GOOD LEADER are Eagle Scouts. To
now read this gives me another reason for not going back to Scouting. I love
the program, but this is insane. VOLUNTEERS are giving up time and MONEY so
that executives can rich, that is plain old hypocrisy. Scouting is about
teaching morality and leading through example. This is a POOR example at best.
I think the disconnect is between the systems of the LDS Church and the BSA. I
think we've all experienced berating by professional scouts for the conduct of
LDS scouts, LDS scout leaders and our poor training, and so forth. While on my
Order of the Arrow ordeal, two adults were talking (but shouldn't have been)
about how the LDS scout act like they own the camp. This was outside of Utah.
Lots more stories like that personally.Now that I'm older, I realize
that we practically did own the camp, and would probably buy the thing if we
pulled out of scouting. Perhaps we engender resentment?Part of it
comes, I think, from the nature of our troops. Other troops consist of scouts
eager to be there, whereas ours include everybody. If our program were truly
voluntary rather than a part of the YM program, executive salary would not even
be an issue. But that disconnect is no reason to abandon the relationship. The
real issue is whether scouting is serving its purposes. Unless someone entitled
to that revelation decides to change, there is a lot of good from the
relationship with scouting, despite the disconnect between organizations.
My experience with non-profits, especially those not reporting financials, is
that financial misuse is the norm. When people appropriate themselves a salary
they will do so at the highest level they think they can get away with. Human
nature. Lack of financial transparency practically BEGS for misuse. It is an interesting observation, having lived as long as I have and seen how
the world really works, to note that "executive type" people tend to see their
contribution to an effort as indispensable, invaluable and therefore worthy of
what most of us would view as very selfish levels of compensation. The reality
is that every person who participates in our economy has value. Imagine if the
garbage did not get collected for a couple of weeks...the job that the garbage
collector does is actually pretty important, but we generally don't view those
people as being important, do we? I worked for a privatly held company at one
time. The CFO and I were friends. He SHOWED me what the owner disbursed for
year end bonuses. The General Manager had total discretion to "share" the
bonuses with employees or keep all of it himself. Guess what he did? Kept it
Never again. As a scoutmaster if I had the friends of scouting money to use for
the local boys I could overcome the number one obstacle to LDS youth programs,
MONEY! The boys deserve better! They are where the money should be spent!
The spiritual strength of YM in the Church a continual concern. We should be
doing all we can to support and sustain each and every young man. It is a
critical time in their life and in many areas of the world (including Utah), it
is clear that we need to do more in terms of helping them develop spiritually
and in all other aspects of life. Scouting benefits a small minority
of youth and parents. Those who are not interested (a large majority) in tying
knots and getting merit badges, are just as valuable as those who are, despite
having different interests. They should not be made to feel that spiritual
development and success in life is equated to success in scouting. We are losing too many young men because of the focus on scouting. I can't
wait until the ties between scouting and the Church are abolished.
I have been in scouting for 20 years; I like scouting and what it can do for a
young man, I have seen young men do great things, and for that reason I will
stay in scouting and help support it. I have always wondered just what my money
went to. I was sure it was not going to the boys, so some years ago I stopped
giving to the Friends of Scouting and will never give again. Now I what until
the friends of scouting drive is over and give my money directly to the troop, I
now see what my money goes for, tents, gas, food and other equipment.
STOP the greedy coorporate coruption! What a scam. I love scouting but hate
the greedy theft of scout executives. They care more about having the newest
mercedes than the children they are suppose to serve. I am anxiously awaiting a
new scouting program. Scouting is about service not greed. I emailed my local
scouting office to let them know my disapproval of these salaries. I was a scout
many years ago in Canada (70's). We used to do drives to collect pop bottles
and junk to resell to make money for tents, supplies and patches. We never
begged for money just worked our butts off. It was hard work and we felt like
we earned our next camp. I hope the coruption in scouting salaries is fixed or
they all get fired! I think it is robbing from the poor to give to the rich.
PS I LOVE SCOUTS!
The answer is simple: Dump Scouting!There is NO empirical evidence
that Scouting is worth this much money. Can't religious communities
and charitable organizations (who often sponsor troops) do a better job on their
own? Do we really need that "Eagle" badge (protected by copyright,
of course) to denote that we've done a great job to raise our sons? Can't fathers actually find time to spend with their own sons (and their sons'
friends) rather than having to be "called" to go camping?
As the article states 83% of the money received for the GSLC goes to
programs/services. if you want to know where the money goes, go the the gslc-bsa
website.32% of all money comes from the FOS drive. 40.5% from camp
fees, etc. 3% from the United way. 16% from special events and fundraising, 7%
from interest and misc.In the past they had a chart as to where the
money went, they have a list only. They need a chart yesterday.Everything looks great, except when you figure that Paul gets 3% of the total
revenue. Add the other professional scouters and you get about 20% or 1/5. Scouting is good. We should help support it. As I mentioned above, I
donated after reading this article. They have these really cool patches....Paul's salary is out of line. It seems when I was a charter rep, I was
invited to a meeting to discuss things like this. I am sure Paul will not be
getting a raise. He would be smart to give 1/2 of his salary back, or resign.
He probably can't give 1/2 back, so we need someone else. The other two
Sacrifice brings blessings. I'll continue to follow the Prophet and the
Church's support of the Boy Scouts of America....until there is a change. But,
until then...I'd better start re-thinking my desire to become a farmer and start
working at the BSA. "Working" only 60-80 hours a week for that salary is a
breeze. I'd bet they even get most Sundays off. Thanks DesNews for the
eye-opening career opportunities available at the various Councils of the BSA.
My first impression of the article was one of shock..then frustration for a way
to make the situation better. It just seems the "focus" is not on the young men
as much as it used to be. Still, many dedicate long hours and days for the
benefit of helping boys learn many things. I was always under the impression
the FOS was for the benefit of the local troops, not for the outlandish salaries
of the execs. Give them half of what they are being paid and we should see where
their dedication really is. I believe the Church could independtly run a program
better and the boys would learn more and there would not be executive salaries
to pay. I read every comment.I don't support FOS anymore because of the
ungrateful attitude of the ward I was in. No matter what you donated they asked
for more and put much pressure on it. I don't believe the Church is aware of
the way pressure is put on members for this program, if they were I know they
would make changes to improve it. FOS is not a positive experience for many.
That is sad!!
I've read the article regarding Scout Executive pay and I'm stunned at the
reader responses. Let me try to inject some sanity back into the dialogue:1. Do you want the Boy Scouts to be run like a government agency? Have
you been to the DMV or Post Office lately? You get what you pay for.2. $250,000 for a seasoned executive at ANY mid-size company ANYWHERE in
America is nothing. You should leave Utah occasionally.3. $250k
working 70 hours a week = $70/hour. Huh? We're entrusting the well-being of an
essential organization and the lives of thousands of youths to a guy that makes
$70/hour? I say give him a raise.4. I have worked with numerous
Scout Executives in California councils and have been impressed that the BSA has
actually been able to attract and retain talented people. The pay is a part of
that, but only a part.5. The LDS Church pays registration and many
fees and a small Friends of Scouting donation is onerous?Scouting
was never more relevant than it is today. If you think Scouting has ever been
about knots and camping, you are sorely mistaken.
My donation limit is reached.I have only so much to give, and the
donations I plan to make for Billy Joel ($95), Blue Man Group ($85), Harlem
Globetrotters ($110), The Cure ($50), and Mannheim Steamroller ($88) might even
keep me from donating to the Jazz a few times this year. Those guys
need the money. They really earn their pay.Sorry, no more money for
While I was not aware of the excessive salaries for the professional scouters, I
have been suspect of the costs of the program for a long time. As a former
Bishop outside of Utah, I have found the Scouting program to be very expensive
to try and manage within the church budget. In addition, it does not meet the
needs of all the boys. I could write a dissertation on the challenges I have
seen with trying to run a scouting program in the church outside of Utah where
the parental and financial support are lacking. I have three boys and my wife
and I both really wish the LDS Church would drop the program and work on Faith
in God and Duty to God only. It would save a ton of money and I think it would
be more effective for the boys. I am now serving in a Ward YM Presidency and
trying to run two programs (Scouting & Duty to God) certainly does not follow
Elder Oaks admonition to simplify.
The Navy, and probably other US military as well, start an enlistee two
pay grades higher when he has his Eagle.
I am an Eagle Scout an I do owe alot to Scouting, However I have found it
disturbing to see how little of the money a ward or parents for that matter
donate to scouting actually comes back to them. It is sad to see the thousands
of dollars raised in the wards go to headquarters and then have it still cost an
arm an a leg to go to an organized camp. the halmark of a good Non-for-profit is
how much money it gets back to the lowest levels of the organization. In this
case the scouts themselves. Guess what parents, With scouting its not making it
back to your kid! Whats worse is the scouting program is bording on becoming
obsolete as Club sports, School activites, etc take up more of our kids time. We
need a program like Scouting to teach our young men + women good values, but
such a program must be appealing and supportive to those who would stand to
benifit. Scouting has lost that appeal and obviously is not supporting kids the
way it should be. Becoming an Eagle scout has become too easy and employers are
aware of that.
Not one eagle scout award is worth the price that has been paid, by the parents
of boys killed or hurt on scout activities. My son was hurt. It changed all of
us for ever. The scout program did nothing to help our son. I talked to
everyone at the council and they did nothing.Did not care. Only the LDS church
helped us and our son. It is not what it seems. Please, please move away from
So if the Church continues to support Friends of Scouting after this, what is
your response going to be? Are you all going to tell the First Presidency to
get lost? I didn't head up our ward's FOS drive this year because I like it,
but because I was asked to.Secondly, the market place has
established these scouting salaries, as is well documented in the article. That
doesn't mean it is fair (I know I'm a teacher), but it does mean you can't
change it. Fire Moore and you'll have to pay the same to replace him. Not
fair, just so.
It is ALWAYS a good idea to look into an organization before giving them money.
Non profits have to file a tax form each year called a 990. You can look them up
online. I have looked at many 990s and based on that information, my
family situation, and my own level of comfort with different factors which I
will not discuss in detail, I will support the Ronald McDonald House. I will not
support the PTA. I will support our volunteer fire department. I will not
support the Coalition of Police and Sheriffs. I will support the Congenital
Heart Information Network. I will not support the American Heart Association.The list could go on. Remember that these are my personal decisions and
not entirely based on the 990.You can look up non-profits on
something like Charity Navigator. You can look up 990s too. From a quick search,
it doesn't seem like the Boy Scouts are out of line with other non profits in
the US. For example, some of the employees of the Children's Miracle Networks
(also in Utah and connected to the Osmond family) are earning $300K or $400K a
As a Scoutmaster, after I took time to take some Scouts around to gather Friends
of Scouting funds for the first time, I decided I would not do it again, because
I knew it was just paying salaries. This article confirms my stance. Having
said that, I do see the benefits of the Scouting program (for those young men
who have a desire to be involved). I also see the benefits of the Duty to God
program. And I know those two programs are very similar. The LDS church will
eventually choose the right.
I am in favor of having the parents who are of Scout age to pay the way for
their children toi be in the Scout program. I think the Young women and the
young program of the church can do to develop the youth of the church. In
our area the church purchased 4000 acres Cinnomon Creek which was purchsed by
six stakes in the Cache Valley district. The cost was 3 million dollars. This is
not used as it should be. This is a gated and locked area for entrance. The
area was developed for all of the Scouts, young women and young men to use. I
think the Church could devlop its own scouting program much cheaper. I am
really upset to hear about the high salary paid to these Scout leaders. The
fringe benefits also that these leaders get. I believe in scouting but, i think
salaries need to be adjusted.
I buy football tickets for entertainment and feel that I get my money's
worth.I donate to scouting to benefit the boys, not to pad a
professional scouters $1 million salary.Dont confuse BYU football
with friends of scouting, they're two entirely different subjects and purposes.
Your comments use a technique called "attacking the messenger." Using this
technique usually means that you do not like the information that was given but
cannot actually refute the information. Lawyers use this technique."Lee, you and Joe have done a great disservice to the community and to a very
worthwhile program. You do not offer any alternatives, and your tone is envious,
To BB (his comment below) who spent so much time in a scouting job. I try my
very hardest to avoid supporting organizations that treat their employees like
this. The labor unions of America worked long and hard to prevent this sort of
oppression. "I spent three years as a professional Scouter. I loved
the job, but had no personal life. I often worked from 7:00 in the morning until
11:00 at night, sometimes six or seven days in a week. I was responsible for
every aspect of the program within my district. I recruited boys and leaders,
did training, organized Scout and day camps, supervised district leadership, and
much more. I left because I was having to make too many sacrifices of family and
My hope is that the LDS Church will back out of the scouting program. They have
done a lot of good in years past but with all the perverts out there and the
church continues involvement the chances are getting bigger it could be a
downfall. Just reading the comments, it is obvious only the big money makers
are for scouting. It's not for the boys and hasn't been for a long time...let's
be honest here...it's the scout leaders who should be paid not the executives.
They don't have any personal involvement with the boys...just make sure they get
their fat paychecks...Friends of Scouting is a farce..we hated it...what used to
be "good" for the boys is only "good" for the greedy executives. We no longer
support it..I worked for the BSA in Provo and back then they were not raking in
those kind of funds. Pres. Benson was right..GREED is the root of evil and the
BSA have made this true.
To say that the scouting program is the best venue to provide the boys with a
moral compass is just plain silly. Half the boys in my ward that got their
Eagles were partiers. Yes, that's right 4 of 8 were drinking beer and smoking
pot on a regular basis. One even served some jail time. Open your eyes folks.
I'm all for Duty to God.
It does not matter who gets paid what for being a professional scouter. What is
most important is the cost/benefit ratio for the involved boys. All of my three
boys achieved their Eagle Scout rank. As a scout, I wished that I had achieved
this rank. Never the less, as a church leader, I am seeing that scouting is
becoming less and less relevant to the spiritual development for our boys. When Elder/Pres Eyring presided at one of our stake conferences as few
years ago, he said that President Hinckley is for dropping Scouting because of
its cost/benefit ratio and President Monson is for it retention.If I
had a vote, I would cease to have it a required arm of the church run by the
wards. If the church is going to continue sponsoring scouting, let it be a
function of the stake young mens presidencies if the stake chooses to have a
scouting arm at all, with participation solely by choice for the boys and with
parent volunteers participating by choice and not by calling. With this,
scouting would again be fun for those involved and not an uncompensated drudgery
as it now often is.
There is anger here.Is the anger about the high salary? The salary is
determined by the LOCAL COUNCIL VOUNTEERS who serve on the Council Executive
Board. Some of these are LDS Ward and Stake leaders who provide direction to
the council.Is anger at Church leadership for electing BSA as the youth
program a Boy Scout program within the Church that is a significant departure
from the programs in non-LDS troops nationwide.Is this venting (without
appearing to directly challenge the Ward and Stake leadership) at the Bishops
who call and then remove scout leaders so fast that they never can get an
effective Scouting program rolling? At Deseret we have a book that describes
this On My Honor: A Guide to Scouting in the Church by Thane Packer.Is it
because Scout Troops in the Church are not as safe for the boys as troops led by
non-LDS groups? President Charles Dahlquists office Church YN account for
about 17% of boys in Scouting, yet LDS troops account for more than 50% of
serious injuries and deaths of Scouts. Why? Again, President Dahlquist: Not
taking and applying training, not following Scouting rules and not demonstrating
To: Mr. Most of You are off Base,Yes, we do have a program that
could replace scouting. It's called Duty to God. We could expand the program
to incorporate some of the better elements of scouting. Mutual nights
activities could be used for Duty to God, service, career night, character
development and combined activies with the Young Women.
I don't know if this has been said but I would be willing to bet that FOS raises
no more than 40% of these council's budget. They are doing so much more
fundraising than just FOS. Budgets are available for anyone to see and every
unit can send its representative to board meetings where he has a vote on these
I don't live in Utah, but had three sons in scouting and a grandson just old
enough to join now. It was always a struggle for me to buy uniforms, books,
camping equipment and fees. My boys learned a lot from scouting and two are
still involved as adults. One son is a Fire Captain , the other the US Air
Force and use their "spare" time, volunteer to help youth. Missouri doesn't
have FOS and I would not donate if they did. YW programs are not as well funded
and parents slip extra cash to those running the ward programs. The LDS
leadership need to demand an audit, look to changing YM programs and make the
BSA programs optional. Life skills are good, so is having fun. Foil dinners
teach great life lessons. My girls were in GS but liked YM much more. Get
involved and change it from ground up. Revolution hurts everyone and benefits
none. Thanks to DMN for reporting this story.
Time for the LDS Church to pull out of scouting and start their own program.
I see the anger - WOW.... Is the anger at the Scout organization? The
pay? Or is that simply a reason to unload? Is the anger at the church
because the church presidency CHOSE Scouts in 1913 as their youth organization
for YM? Is the anger at the local wards? Because the bishops call
Scout leaders and then transfer them out before they even become engaged with
the PM? (Read ON MY HONOR - Deseret sells it) Coupled with the
previous example - Is the anger at the church because, while less than 17% of
the boys in Scouting come from the wards, more than 50% of the serious injuries
and fatalities come from LDS troops (Check with the Young Mens Presidency - that
office published the figures) becuase the called leaders CHOOSE to ignore safety
training, program training and the other relevant rules (including youth
protection from abuse)
Kudos for this article. Count me among the fathers of boys in the church just
counting down the days until the Church jettisons the pretentious ritual and
bureaucratic nonsense of scouts and focuses instead on the sensible,
streamlined, and gospel-centered Duty to God program. Also, even though I've
only got sons, it infuriates me that the YM program is not parallel with the YW
program in the funding that it gets and the attention that it receives. I don't
doubt that Scouts is great for some boys, but it's not for mine. They have
talents and healthy interests that Scouts just doesn't accommodate. And if my
boys don't have good enough credentials to get a good job without "Eagle Scout"
on their resume, they don't deserve the job.
You don't need the BSA to go camping, learn knots, or go on a 50 miler. Scott Rees: You make a good point, but I believe our Church leaders,
both SLC and Ward, are not aware of the obscene salaries the BSA execs are
pulling down thanks to our FOS donations. How could this ever be justified?!
This DN article is causing Mormon jaws to drop. The BSA exec salary structure is
unacceptable, and I look for our Church leaders to take some action, based on
this new information from the DN.
I support scouting. It has blessed the lives of my father (a Life Scout), his
six sons (all Eagle scouts), most of my cousins, nephews, and my own sons, and
neighbors. I agree with those who say that Scouting is needed more today than
ever. I believe that anything of value is worth working for and worth paying
for. I liken the scouting experience to that of playing the piano. Most
teenagers don't want to continue doing it, but if they do, they'll be glad they
did. We need to do it right. If it's not working in our units, we need to
improve. It's up to us to make this work better and the scouting program can
help us do that. Keep Pullin' Ralph.
I'll admit seeing that number was surprising but to me it was surprising in a
good way. District Executives work long and hard and they usually don't get a
lot of thanks. I volunteered to help in my district and I was
called to serve in my ward. I would do anything to support my local scout
program and I can't believe these negative comments. I can't believe somebody
thought there was no character development in Cub Scouts?!? Shocking - if you
were trained and worked the program then you should have had lots of
opportunities for character development - especially when you bring in the Faith
In God Program and work the two together, side by side. I hope the Scouting is
always a part of the LDS church because when it's done right, it's a wonderful
Moore seems to have the mistaken idea that there is no limit to the salary
potential in corporate America, and each year you can continue to get raises
until you reach the $200k+ range. Every company I've ever worked at
had salary grades with corresponding ranges. Usually, the percentage of annual
raise drops once you reach the midpoint between the range. I worked at one
company where most of the staff had reached their salary ceiling and no raises
were given for several years in a row.Some of my friends at Nu Skin
were in this situation, and just got laid off. Ironically, a couple were
invovled in Scouting and each year took dedicated all of their vacation time to
scouting for scout camp and other activities.
Kids still need the program so I am still doing it at 81 and giving it my best
effort and pocket money. We slept out in a desert wash and we listened to
coyotes howl near our tent doors at 4 AM. We looked at the bright starlit sky,
observed the beavers at work and watched desert rams in the nearby mountains.
Most modern kids hate uniforms. They won't even wear the uniform of their contry
or salute the flag. They live with cell phones, rock music and computers. Their
world is "my space". Many are spoiled and their heads are full of crap.Many of those posting negative on this site do the same. Bring scouting back
to the old days. Keep the gays and lawyers away. They have all but ruined the
program. We don't need FOS either. Give your money to the local units who can
put it to good use. Eagle scouts who earn the badge are among the movers and
shakers in todays world..and what is wrong with a 50 miler to make a boy into a
man! Get with it folks. There is no substitute for the BSA.
I gave up giving to FOS about 5 yrs ago when I realized very little of the money
was used to directly influence my Troop. I always wondered where that money
went. I knew professional scouters were paid, but they definitely pay themselves
well with donated money, that's for sure.Instead of FOS, I choose to
donate a substantial amount to sponsor a young man in my unit to go to scout
camp. That way my unit is directly affected. I feel good about that.On another note, I will think about donating to FOS again when I, as a scout
leader in my ward, can directly solicit cash from members of the ward to fund
the activities of my program that I want to do that are costly.
I lived in a very poor ward in a trailer park neighborhood a few years back.
Friends of Scouting came around and collected the meager donations our ward
could provide. It wasn't enough; they had to go around again. It still wasn't
enough. A couple of families in the ward scraped together the required money at
great sacrifice. When the widow's mite is collected, there is great
responsibility to respect that sacrifice and use the money wisely. The scout
executives quoted in this article don't understand that. In the future I will
donate to organizations that respect the sacrifice that my donation represnents.
Hard Hearts It sure hurts and sad to see so many complain about an
orgianization that has done so much for our young men for so many years. But
what is most disturbing is to see how many of these comments conflict with what
our church leaders have asked us to do. Make no mistake that the BSA is the
activity arm for our young men. But then again all of us are free to choose or
not to choose what are leaders ask us to do. As for me and my house we will
follow their direction until I am told diffrently.
A comment before mentioned about those at the top earn the most money, there's
no difference. If people are disgruntled about it, boycott it. Then we'll see
if they continue to make the big bucks. I think the main ploy is to retain the
very best leaders, but oftentimes those at the bottom are some of the best. In
corporate America, including nonprofit organizations, it's not about what you
know but who you know. It's not fair, but it's life.
Sadly, I absolutely will not donate one more dime to the BSA, and I have been a
very big believer in it for many, many years. This will be fascinating to
watch. I'll be looking for other ways to teach my boys the same principles and
truths--wherever I can find such a program. Mark my words...people
will "vote" on the matter with their wallets, and with their "feet" by not
putting their boys in this formerly great program. We REALLY need a
replacement. I hope it can be in place for my boys in the very near future.
Back to my opinion. My wife and I happen to be barely making ends meet. We,
with our kids, live on 3% of our (yes, OUR) collective take home pay (after
regular living expenses are paid--we're tight). It was a huge expense for me to
buy the full class A uniform. We've stretched to donate as much as we could to
FOS. I've stretched to meet demands of being a Scoutmaster all these
years, because I love the Lord and believe in the character building component
of Scouting as the activity arm of the priesthood. The problem is that that
"arm" is governed by people who do not have the same interest in mind as Church
members--that it is the activity arm of the priesthood. They want it to be
Junior Military-esque, skills focused only, achievement and recognition focused
only...not necessarily the degree of emphasis that is needed in today's world to
build lifelong, honorable priesthood holders.
There is obviously a big decision to make. Huge, huge kudos to the DNews. I'll
gladly donate to the DNEWS!! Honestly, I pray that Church leaders will
recognize what is happening and pray for direction on the matter.If
it were my decision...the Church should start its own program, with all the good
principles that Scouting once had, but without all the irrelevant fluff. Drop
the BSA and FOS--too much financial hardship, expense of precious people and
financial resources, guilt, with little measurable benefit for those precious
dollars donated. BTW--Did you know that just this past year a new
requirement was added to the 1st Class requirements?It is a recruiting
requirement!! In my opinion the real motive for this is just to keep those
numbers up so as to pay for Exec Scouter salaries.
I have to agree with Cheap (above). Utah employers have long suppressed wages
and gotten away with it because so many will work for anything just to live
here. Meanwhile, employees complain about Utah taxes (some of the lowest in the
country), Utah school efficiency (about the best in the country), and now FOS.
BSA is a national organization. If scout executives' pay ranges are based
on national market, why is that Moore's fault? It's not cheaper to live in
Utah anymore, and the fact that the state tops so many others in terms of both
bankruptcies and working mothers should probably tell us something.I think
that Cheap has it right. Instead of chiming in with your envious comments, go
ask for a raise. Maybe then you'll be able to afford to raise your kids well.
One thing people are forgetting is that the Duty to God award is a scouting
program too.I was raised in the home of a pro Scouter. We lived
paycheck to paycheck in the provo area counciel. I remember my father leaving
home for earily morning meetings with volenteers before they had to go to work
and then not getting home until midnight. My father was also camp director for
many years and then was over all the camps and I can tell you that we never went
on family vacation during the summer becasue he had to be at camp. The problem
is that the leaders called in the LDS wards are not there because they want to
be. My husband never got became an egale scout because of the leaders lack of
interst and he was raised in MN. It saddens me to hear so many people are going
to with draw from FOS when it helps to pay for the programs that are available
to their boys. My father recently left Utah to be a scout excitive of his own
councle after serving Utah's boys for 30 years. I hope people will change their
I am amazed how often the comments are more informative entertaining and
educational than the original article. The comments are the best thing that
has happened to newspapers since movable type!
I used to be a District Executive in the Great Salt Lake Council. I know Paul
Moore. He is a good man and works hard. He is one of the most amazing people
that I know. I did not realize that he made that much but I know how much he
devotes to moving the council forward. Most people do not understand how hard
the professional staff works or the amount of pressure they are under. It is
very easy to get burned out doing that job, that's why I'm no longer there.
Also, the entry level District Executives work long hours and don't get paid all
that much money for the amount of time they put in. I would hope that after 30
plus years of all of the headaches we would want to pay the best individuals,
such as Paul Moore, enough to keep them and their expertise around. I
appreciate the very much misunderstood and underappreciated job they do.
Her spelling errors aside, I think "professional scouters wife" is upset that
this little revelation is going to blow the whole little FOS scam out of the
water. If anything, the writer bent over backwards to tell the Scouts' side of
the story. It's just impossible to justify that high of a salary coming from a
CEO of an organization that subsists almost entirely on donations. Not taxes,
like a school superintendent. Not business profits, as from a private
enterprise. But donations from rank-and-file Scouters and church members who've
been duped into thinking they're giving to the boy in uniform standing at their
front door with his hand out, when really an inordinate share of the donation is
lining the pockets of the fat cats like this lady's husband. Nobody is saying
they don't work hard. We all do. We just don't all have the benefit of being
handsomely paid for doing it. It's our church calling. And she has the nerve to
question our sustaining of church leaders! So what if the aticle doesn't sit too
well with you. Boo hoo! Try "doing it for the boys" instead.
Additional thoughts continue: There are several young women in the ward willing
to teach piano lessons, tend, sell items they've made, to pay for their
activities. Maybe the YW could help the BS learn how to work.By the way,
any adult who applies for a job and puts Eagle Scout on their resume, looks like
an idiot. I've reviewed 100's of applicants, and believe me, it makes you look
silly. Why not just include a letter of recommendation from your mom while your
This year we did not give to Friends of Scouting. I am tired of able bodied kids
and adults in my neighborhood asking for a handout. Whether its scouting or
dance lessons or band or the local little league team, we've become a society of
beggars. I don't like the thought that if you can't afford it, just go ask your
neighbors to fund it. If you can't afford it, don't do it, or work for the
money. It really bothers me, that in my ward, I've offered any young man $10-12
dollars an hour for simple yard help, and no one is willing to do it. How about
having scout leaders and parents encourage their young men to work. That may
help them more than knowing how to weave a basket. As an LDS member, I'm
bothered by ward members seeking donations from one another. I have no ill
feelings towards the scout leaders who have to do it, as I know they hate it
too. In my opinion, the church should divorce themselves from boy scouts and
focus on Duty to God. They should also start putting as much effort into
developing young women
I have no problem with this gentleman's salary. He seems dedicated and
well-meaning. I only have a problem with my church subsidizing his pay with its
Speaking as the mother of four Eagle Scouts, I am finished with FOS. When I
think of the sacrifices my boys' scout leaders made--all the things enumerated
in previous postings--let alone all they put up with at Scout Camp, the winter
hikes, the worry, taking care of sick, scared, injured, misbehaving boys, etc.
all without compensation, it makes me sick to realize that at the same time the
head honcho in the office was taking home $200 grand plus. I do
hope that the Church will be offering something better and more relevant(and
truly "volunteer", like the rest of our callings) for my grandsons in a few
years. While my boys had fun and learned a few things for a few years, we found
ourselves competing with scouting activities for family time too often. As grown
men with families of their own now, my sons appear to have no nostalgia for
their scouting days, no interest in maintaining the memorabilia, etc. The LAST
thing they wanted when they did get their Eagle Scout Award was for it to be
covered in the local paper. If scouting was not cool then, it's not going to be
better for my grandsons.
I'm not impressed by the article. Look at the title and the way the argument is
structured: this is not news reporting, it is a broadside shot at a scouting
organization that typically does not defend itself. The tone of the article is
filled with greed and slanted to appeal to self-interest. Lee, you and Joe have
done a great disservice to the community and to a very worthwhile program. You
do not offer any alternatives, and your tone is envious, if anything. To the
no-longer-friends-of-scouting group I would ask: when you gave the service (and
donations) to scouting, what were your motives? Many of you complain now about
the service you gave. Is that nullified now because of a craftily-written news
article? Do you regret the service now just because a news reporter needed a
grabber of an article? Why didn't Lee decide to take on the thriving local drug
business (meth, cocaine, heroin) instead? Because they do defend themselves.
Sorry Lee, no Pulitzer.
I'm surprised noone has mentioned the inequities between boys and girls with
regard to the subsidation of the Boy Scouts. Heck, FOS doesn't even bother to
mix in some thin mints or tagalongs for my trouble. One particular scout camp
experience stands out. Three years ago, we attended camp at camp Evergreen at
East Fork of the Bear. This happened to be the same year that scouters there
nearly burned down the entire Uinta National Forest. These Camp counselors fell
just shy of being abusive to our group of scouts. At one particular merit badge
tent, the counselor gave our scouts the "silent treatment" for the entire hour
of the merit badge. At the waterfront the counselors picked fights and used
vulgarity with our Scouts. They had taken on what could only be descibed as a "
Lord of the Flies" mentality. Since then, I have been a firms believer in my
church's divestiture from the BSA. The Duty to God Award is much more valuable
in the long term. I don't mind people making as much money as the market can
bear, Just don't count on me to bear it from here on.
I am a proud eagle scout, and a member of the Air Force, the leadership I
learned that makes me what I am today, I credit to scouting. I know that there
has been alot of comments about how the boys hate scouting, many youth leaders
believe in the "Spalding 2000" mission where most of the boys just show up on
wed do scouting for 20 min, then play basketball, and hopefully they will end up
on a mission. I loved the program, ended up going to direct scout camps,
and when all is said and done, it is a great program that dosnt have the support
from many local church leaders.Now with that said, I am saddened that so
much of the hard earned and donated money goes to CEO type scouters. I beleive
that is BSA wants to stay afloat, they need to restructure. I would gladly
dontate my time as a scout exec, and I know many others who would as well.
Thank you for printing this article about the farce of the Friends of Scouting
Drive. I once asked my local leaders for an explanation of where the donations
go and none could be given.As a counselor in the bishopric, I am
disgusted by the greedy executives who feel they deserve the pay beacuse they
work 50 to 60 hours a week. My scout leaders work feverishly helping boys earn
merit badges and they do not make a dime.It's time for the LDS
church to leave the program and help our young men learn skills, gain knowledge,
and build self-confidence by earning their Duty to God award.They
can find someone else to head the FOS next year. I'm DONE!!!!!
Scouting, that is. Great job to deseret news for covering this. I hope and pray
that this will be a catalyst for BSA to finally be left behind. We could do much
better for our youth on our own with a christ-centered, testimony and values
A few scouter's in this bog have tried to make us feel like bad members of the
church because we are so upset at the unbelievably amount Scout Executives are
paid. One writer on this blog said we raise our hand at General Conference to
sustain leaders, who make the choice to have scouting so we should pay FOS.
Indeed I did raise my hand but there is a difference in sustaining vs. obeying
if obeying goes beyond personal inspiration and knowledge. We are sustaining
great men who are men and they do make mistakes.
Maybe other Utahns ought to go to work in the morning and ask for a pay raise.
Maybe he's not paid too much, as you're paid too little.
Where are you all getting this high speed "Duty to God" program is so much
better than scouting? I don't think you know anything about it. You're just
reading other posts and agreeing.Google "Duty to God Award" to find
the requirements. All there is is a checklist to initial off on. Sure, there
is a service project required, but I think that idea is stolen from the scout
handbook. If you want the Duty to God program to replace scouting, the church
would need to put more time, resources, curriculum, and substance into it...It's
just an award. There is nothing to it...At least scouting has structure. If you
REPLACE it with scouting, you're just giving your kids another excuse to stay
home, play video games, get fat, while MAYBE saying a few prayers and reading a
few scriptures. Employers still ask your kids if they are eagle scouts or not.
They even ask college graduates. They don't care about the duty to God award.
Instead of cry about scouts, audit them, fix their financial
problems, hire an exec to work for half of Mr. Moore's pay and carry on with
I work with the boy scouts every week. I love the boys, but it is a babysitting
job to say the least. I see no real character building being done. Please
Please Please: LDS Church DUMP THE BS of A!!! Let's put our hard work and
efforts into a program that is inspired and worthwhile. We have been successful
with the Young Women, (without lousy Friends of Scouting) let's do it with the
Young Men! Most of the parents send their boys because they think
it is part of being a "good" church member. I think our precious,
UNPAID time volunteering could be better spent teaching the gospel of Jesus
Christ, not PRETENDING we have a testimony of the Boy Scouts of America.If people love the BSA, let them sign up for it in their communities,
don't make volunteering a church calling.
The athletic dept at BYU does not recieve a dime of your tithing. The coaches
pay is based on performance. Don't justify BSA salaries with your ignorance.
Your not doing either side a favor. Typical coaches work week 5 or 6 to 8 Monday
through Saturday. Please remember it is not what others do it is
about what the Scouts are doing.
Paul Moore is an outstanding individual. He has done phenomenal things in his
position and has made the SLC Council one of the premier councils in all of BSA.
I do believe that it would be honorable of Paul Moore to be willing
to take a salary adjustment. Perhaps, he should make something equivalent to
the salaries of other CEOs in the state of Utah who head similar sized
organizations...oh wait, there aren't any (besides leadership of the LDS
church). I hope that people do not become so bitter that they cease
to support this good cause. It would be sad to imagine that tens of thousands
of boys in the state of Utah may now have a sub-standard scouting experience due
poor funding and bitter leaders.I hope that people can look past
themselves and their own wallet and see the bigger picture...
My husband is a professional scouter, and he used to work for the SLC council.
He transferred to another council for the experience. I've read a lot of these
comments. First I would be concerned if you're questioning the judgment of
church leadership and the prophet for their involvement in the BSA. Some of you
think you have it all figured out, just because you don't make as much, and you
gave some time to scouting. Most of you really don't know how the program
works, or where the monies go to. Its a worthy cause, and if done right, WITH
PARENTAL support, boys can learn to become men through the experience of
scouting. Its not about the knots ya know. Or I guess your son's video games
that you don't have to give your time to does that just as well. I'm also
wondering on what grounds were the writers wanting to write an article that
clearly leans toward a certain angle. Definately a negative tilt. And they sure
wanted to write a real long one. I'm wondering what their adjenda was in all
this. And if the money is that great, then go apply.
Mitt Romney did not recieve a salary for running the olympics. He took what he
would have been paid and donated to the olympics. Before you drag somebodys name
into the financial mess that is scouting get your facts straight.
I have read all (whew!) of the comments both for and against FOS. These seem
like natural logic to me:* Anyone claiming that he is doing
Scouting "for the boys" would never accept that much money because he is taking
it away from them.* I have, in 15 years of scouting, never had one
bit of help from a professional scouter.* The Duty to God program
is a fabulous program that better fits the needs of the boys today.I
am sure the Professional scouters are very hard working, but I question their
motivation when they take the money right out of the hands of the boys. Pay
them a comfortable $75,000 and we'll see where their dedication lies.
Leave out Bronco. What did he do to you. His success determined his salary. My
ward hasn't had a successful scouting program in years. Our last Eagle Scout was
5 years ago and he can't swim. But BSA salaries have gone up. Is Moores salary
tied to success or enrollement?
"For instance, do you know how much Mitt Romney made to be the head of SLOC?
Much more than Moore!"Not true. Romney didn't take a salary for
running the Olympics. He considered it public service.Interesting
I am amazed at how many people have commented on this article with vows not to
contribute to the Friends of Scouting anymore. To think that we could have a
volunteer to lead the charge in this area is rather unrealistic. I would bet
that if you were to do a survey and determine what other groups are paying their
leaders in similar positions, we would find that the scouts are very lucky to
get the leadership so cheap. Come on people. My boys have been very fortunate
to have had the scouting experience. To think that we can have this all for
nothing is very unrealistic. When you look at the size of the group these
leaders are asked to look over in the Utah area, it is amazing. The
scoutmasters that have complained in this column. I'll bet, only have had at
most 30 boys. To oversee the thousands that the councils have to look over, is
mind boggling. I suggest we be less critical of the boy scouts and count our
blessings. Critize me if you want, I will always be greatful for the BSA.
As a physician I work 70-80 hours a week. I am sure that I make less than
Bronco Mendenhall and fairly confident that I work longer hours than he does.
This notwithstanding, I will continue to pay my tithing, recognizing that Bronco
does a good job. I'd still pay tithing if he did a terrible job--and I've never
attended BYU. In doing so, however, I recognize that I am supporting something
important (the Church). A competitive salary is important to get good people.
There is no use in throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I will continue to
support scouting, go on campouts, and be a merit badge counselor. My time is
very precious, but I recognize the bottom line--that Scouting helps young men
who embrace it.
What a sick waste. Just think of all the good that could be done with the
resources wards put into scouting if it were Duty to God focused. I long for
the day that getting a Duty to God award is the expectation and not an Eagle
Scouts is a good program. Tied to the LDS church causes a couple problems but I
have worked through them. However I would prefer not to have anything to do with
Scouts. Don't confuse that with YM. The church has a better program and focus.
It also cost less money and I have to spend less time on training. There is no
woodchip badge for learning, knowing, and teaching gospel principles. Without
compulsary means we can do more for our YM and pay a lot less as well
That pay to those scouting officials is absolutely vulgar. I will never give
them another dime. All these years I thought everything was voluntary up to the
top officials receiving minimal compensation for their time. To think our
contributions go into the vast and deep pockets of the officials first for such
gross overpayment is absurd. The church just needs to run it voluntarily for
it's boys and cut off those arrogant and thieving officials. They should be
Football provides much more tangible leadership development than scouting.I have no problem paying for BYU tickets because I get something out of
it PLUS it helps develop leadership skills in the players!Bronco
deserves his salary because he fills the stadium and brings in many millions of
dollars.Paul Moore is not as effective. What real value is the
Scouting program providing to the local communities?Perhaps the
local Councils need new leadership?
Wow, you all are a bunch of whiners up there in Utah,for shame! Look at the
anger and indignation that the adversary has let fester in your hearts. You
should be so grateful for what you have and what scouting has done for many of
you.I guess you have nothing else better to focus your attention on
and that all is well in Zion. Stop complaining about a "dated" scouting program
and find ways to reach your youth through the everlasting principles of
scouting. The scouting program is MORE RELEVANT TODAY THAN EVER shame on you
prideful petty fools who look to others and compare what they have with what you
don't, when will it every me little enough $50K? Quit your whining and get to
work. We have the precious souls of YM on the line and we can't afford you
barnacles on the ship of progress.Regards from a saddened YM pres in
Everybody is over-reacting.The BSA has been using volunteers for
decades so that they can keep costs down. Volunteers keep the costs down in many
organizations.For instance, do you know how much Mitt Romney made to
be the head of SLOC? Much more than Moore! But he made the Winter Olympics
financially successful by using volunteers!Did any of you volunteers
complain that you were being exploited then? I doubt it.And the LDS
Church uses volunteers more extensively than probably any other charitable
organization in the country! But you don't hear people complaining about being
exploited by the Church leaders.A little reason can go a long way in
understanding why executives in non-profit organizations are so
Most folks don't know how BSA is run. That $50 that you pay your troop doesn't
go to the Council. About $10 goes to National and the rest stays with the
troop. Councils have to raise every single penny that they need. Much of that
comes from FOS. What does FOS buy? It pays the salaries of the professionals,
it pays for the camps, it pays for the staff that keeps the records.Who decided on the salary for the SE? Volunteers did. The council board and
the charter organizations signed off on it.As for services, not all
services are free. Fire and police are county services but they aren't free.
The firemen and policemen are paid, and at the upper ranks paid rather well.What does a council provide? It costs about $35 or $40 per Scout to run
a Council. That pays for camps and other facilities, publications, the District
executives, record keeping. Also, compared to a college coach, he
isn't making squat and he's doing something good for society in general.
I agree there are tensions between the BSA and the LDS Church regarding
Scouting. The Church really doesn't do the Scouting program right.I
think the Church should separate itself from Scouting... and I will continue
Mr. Moore makes more than 90% of doctors, 90% of lawyers and 90% of private
sector CEOS. For running a voluntary, not-for-profit organization.Folks, can't be defended.
Many of us are jumping to conclusions. The most important thing to remember is
that scouting is fundamentally good. We should be careful to avoid anything
that detracts from this. It was an important part of growing up for me and I
see it helping many of the kids in my ward today. Keep in mind that these
executives devote a great deal of time, energy, and talent. Limiting one's
support to scouting based on this article will only serve to fill their shoes
with people who are not as talented, dedicated, and capable. These leaders
really have something to offer--and that is why they are paid what they are
paid. They are not merely scoutmasters, of which I am afraid most of us are
jumping to such a comparison. Their position is not a church calling that many
consider baby-sitting. It is easy to overlook the logistics behind such a
massive organization--insurance, utilities, property, budgeting, education. The
list goes on and on. Church aside, nowadays I feel we would be hard pressed to
find any other national organization with such a strong committment to strong
moral values, civic education, and self mastery as the Boys Scouts of America.
I have been a very active volunteer Scouter for over two decades in Southern
California. I strive to take it seriously and do it right. I completed Woodbadge
training and found much of it to be a great experience.But most
scouting in the LDS Church is a joke, and everybody knows it. Because the
leaders are "called," few of them have a real interest. They come in and bide
their time until they can get released. They don't bother with uniforms 90% of
the time. They don't take it seriously. They don't follow the rules or stick
with the program.And because the Church has strictly aligned it with
the priesthood quorums, more often than not, the Scouting troops are not the
proper size. Without the right numbers, you cannot do the program right.When it is done right, it is well worth the price for a quality
executive to ensure it is done right. When not done right, it is a waste of
time.I love Scouting, and admire Baden Powell as a true visionary
leader. It is a tragedy that the Church's "support" for Scouting has been more
of a curse than a blessing.
I was at a scouting roundtable meeting a few months ago (monthly training for
all scout and YM leaders). I had to sit there and listen to a scout exec
complain that the LDS troops and their leaders are the worst trained in the
country because of high turnover and that we don't follow the "patrol method".
I raised my hand and said that was because we (LDS priesthood leaders) think
more in terms of the priesthood quorum than the scout patrol. She really lit
into me for not understanding "the program". I looked down at my watch and
noticed it was 9 pm, and thought of my wife at home putting our kids to bed,
wishing I was there. I wish the church would drop the official
endorsement of BSA, and focus on priesthood objectives. Everything that is good
about scouting: the values, camping, exposure to various disciplines, etc., we
can accomplish without the overhead of the BSA. For me, the bureaucracy of
scouting creates major stress, especially when I see that for most LDS boys
these days, it's compulsatory. Why not separate the two issues? Let's see if
the BSA is strong enough to stand on it's own.
Personal note to "anonymous"Your comments were not posted because a) they
were off topic, b) you are incorrect with your facts and c) they are offensive.
Church policy allows for 1 fundraiser a year. The boys sell flags or something
and that money goes to fund the their activities for their year. Then against stated policy boys and leaders do another fund raiser. For what?
Not any more. Not in my ward.BSA salaries should be tied to services
and materials sold. They should not pimp out kids, parents, or volunteer leaders
to beg for their salaries. I feel bad for the kids next year when
they try and earn some money for an honest service like flags and people will
have this article in their minds.
To Ohio Scouter | 8:25 p.m.The difference is that lawyers, doctors,
etc. are PROFESSIONALS who are involved in FOR PROFIT endeavors - explicitly
providing goods and services in exchange for money.Scouting is
supposed to be NOT-FOR-PROFIT. That is why they get the tax advantages (the same
tax advantages Churches get) and the fund-raisers and such.There are
hundreds if not thousands of well-qualified scouters who would do on a part-time
or volunteer basis what Paul Moore does full-time for a breath-taking salary!It is accountability time. The BSA must re-evaluate their business model
and come up with more efficient ways of serving their mission: "...to prepare
young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by
instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law."Otherwise,
that mission can and will be served by other organizations in a much more
I have met Paul Moore many times. Nice guy.But I had no idea he was
pulling down that kind of cash!These non-profit organizations are
big business for some people! Amazing!Next time I see him I will ask
how he can justify it - you know, Off the record, over a campfire where we can
talk openly and honestly.
All you who are putting your foot down, you better also cancel your BYU football
season tickets, because you know how much the head coach makes. Is scouting a
just cause--a worthy expense--or not? Why do we feel better about paying for
videos or vacations or a boat than for helping boys develop character? For what
will we sacrifice?
More from DavidI just sent our letters to almost 100 families,
including old widows in their 80s & 90s asking for Friends of Scouting
donations. In one week, I have collected over $1000 dollars in checks, and
thats only 40% of my quota. Mr. Paul Moore has been paid all these
years climbing the ranks of the BSA participating in Boy Scouting. To me its
not only his job, but also his hobby. I have hobbies too, but I dont have old
women paying me with money they struggle manage for their day-to-day existence
in order to support any of my hobbies.Mr. Moore, you and your fellow
BSA executives should not sleep well tonight, or any future night for the
serious ethical crimes you have all perpetrated on donors. I expected to learn
some day that BSA executive were highly paid, but this is beyond reason and good
conscience.Im done with FOS for good. I believe I shall
return all the donations I have received with a copy of this Deseret News
article to each donor and tell them to reconsider their donation before I turn
it in to BSA.
Okay, listen. I grew up at Camp Hunt on Bear Lake. Both my parents worked
there. I recently drove by there and was shocked to see the conditions. Almost
all of the mature trees are dead and now need to be removed as they are a huge
liability if they fall on someone (actually a limb did break off a tree and fell
on a girl in a tent during a girls camp and broke her leg). This will cost
mucho deniro (and probably some American dollars as well). Well, they had a
nice person offer to go through the camp and cut out the diseased trees years
ago for about $10,000 but they turned it down. Now it will cost them more to
clear out and replant the trees. Good management of resources eh? I seriously
hope these are not the same people making these large sums of money.
I am the Chairman of the Scout Committee in my LDS Ward. We started our Friends
of Scouting drive last Sunday.I spent about 6 hours of my own time
organizing the fund raising efforts. I am also asked to attend training and a
myriad of other meetings during my personal time. Further, I very often work 60
hours a week at my own job at which I make significantly less than 200K per
year! I am so thoroughly disgusted by the information contained in this
article; Im not sure exactly what my next step will be.Whats even
more maddening is the fact that by virtually any competitive business management
standard the Greater Salt Lake Scout Council is very poorly operated. Visit
their offices and you will notice poorly maintained offices, extremely out dated
methods of record keeping and many staff employees not doing much work. The
head count is appalling for the lack of work that is done. It wasnt until about
15 months ago that they even got a website to do any type of interactive
functions, further, its poorly designed and technically unreliable!
No scout exe. has ever blessed the life of a boy in my troop
How about a new program --- Friends of Scout Executives.Supporters
of these folks can go around and ask folks to donate to pay the Scout
executives. Scout executives get every dime that is raised.Hmmm.
Wonder how much would be raised --- now?
The best thing that keeps males out of trouble is NOT the BSA, but rather an
intact traditional family, with a loving mother and father, teaching righteous
principles.If the Church drops the BSA scouting program, the sky
will not fall in. Those of you who love the BSA and want to keep funding the
mega salaries of the BSA executives, can still do so. Your boys can join a
non-Mormon scout troop, or even start one, sponsored by a business, or some
other entity. Don't FORCE or put a guilt trip on every ward member to support
the BSA. Not all of us agree with you! This article is the last straw, and my
long time support of the BSA ends today.
If the consequence of all is that Friends of Scouting is gutted or goes away,
there's only two results:1). Scouting programs will be scaled
back.2). The Councils will start hiring professional fundraisers. Probably
a goodly number of them. They will make $35,000 to $55,000 a year. They will
raise on average perhaps five or six times their salary. And if that happens the
fundraising ratios for the Councils start looking very wasteful.Friends of Scouting is a very efficient way to raise money. Whatever comes
next will be far less so.
What a racket! Let's do our own program; we're doing all the real work now
anyway. We provide the boys, the facilities, the volunteers, and the funds.
Currently, were only getting overpriced badges and magazines in return. An LDS
boys program would keep precious resources of time and money focused on the
kids, not a bloated hierarchy of overpaid "executives." Loving ward members,
teachers, and leaders change kids' lives - not Roy Williams.
... are none other than the wives and families of the executives themselves,
I'll bet. I wonder if Paul had to pay for the uniform he's wearing in the
picture. The shirt and patches alone would cost nearly $100 for the average peon
like me, but I'll bet he gets a nice discount for being the top dog. After all
he works so much harder than the rest of us poor, ignorant rank-and-file guys in
the trenches, doing all the menial tasks like taking our Scouts camping and
holding troop meetings with them on a weekly basis. I think it's time for a
major critical audit -- the LDS Church needs to hold Scouting accountable for
where all the money is going.
I was a volunterr in the BSA for 16 years. I never once was paid for all my gas
hauling boys to and fro to camp, activities, etc. I even had to buy most of the
boys awards because at the time there wasn't a Scout fund in my ward. When I
found out recently that the top executive in the Grand Teton Peaks Council in
Idaho Falls made over $100,000 a year it disgusted me. The volunteers are the
ones that do all the work. I am divorced and live on a fixed income and when
they come around collecting for the scouting program I had to tell them I have
none to give which is the truth. I live on my Social Security now and if I gave
to the fund it would mean not paying a bill or buying groceries. Let those big
high-paying executives take a cut in pay so the wards are not assessed so much
I love scouting, been in it for years...I won't pay another dime to FOS until he
cuts his salary by 50%
To think that I have gone to families in my neighborhood and asked them to
donate to FOS knowing that they are struggling financialy, convincing them that
the money they donate goes to local offices and the local troops to help our
youth; when the national executive is making nearly a MILLION dollars!! Why in
the world do we as volunteer scout leaders have to pay out of our pocket to buy
badges for our scouts when they advance or not having decent equipment for
campouts. I AM SICK!! BSA YOU BETTER EXPLAIN YOURSELVES!!!! And
saying that it fits the budget they manage and the number of scouts under them
does not work for me!!
They better not try to resurrect the FOS program under some other clever
sounding name. Just give it up and find another way to pay for the operating
expenses, including the too-high exec salaries. Trim the fat and try to keep a
greater share of the money at the local level, where it's actually helping the
It's interesting to read the many comments. A couple of observations:1. You get what you pay for. While the salaries may seem high, they are
comparable or even lower than many other occupations that involve
managing/steering groups as large as Scout Districts and Councils.Also, statistics can make any point you want to make. The writer compares Mr.
Moore's (and other Scouters, also) salary to the average salary in Utah for
physicians and attorneys -- what he should have done is compared the average
salary of attorneys and physicians with 20+ years of experience to Mr. Moore's
salary. I would bet that Mr. Moore's salary would suddenly seem low -- and yet
many physicians/attorneys with 20+ years of experience aren't working 60 - 80
hours per week like scout executives.2. For those who think the LDS
church should "get with the times" and support a program that is more in line
with the interests of today's youth... Did you raise your hand in the last
General Conference to sustain your leaders? If so, then do what you said you
would do (support/sustain the church leaders) and work to make the scouting
program successful for the youth.
There's obviously two issues being discussed here:1. Compensation
of the SL council's CEO.2. Is scouting the best program for the
development of young men in the church?The influence my scout
leaders had on me during the formative teenage years were important in my
personal growth. While I do not use knots and survival skills working in
private equity I am grateful for the discipline I learned working towards the
achievement of Eagle Scout. That being said, I'm sure there are
many capable executives that could run the council for less than Moore. This
discussion will help clarify what is fair compensation for the council's CEO.
Finally, let's be constructive and intelligent about our reasoning
and opinions. I sure get sick of all the whining.
"Do you think that these Scout Excutives (sic) should work for free??"No. But, should they be paid obscenely from small donations? ABSOLUTELY NOT.
And, personally, I think defending this is kind of sick.P.S.
Wouldn't you love to know the identity of some of the defenders of the bloated
I have been somewhat familiar with a number of Scouting District Executives
(those Professional Scouters on the front lines serving the units) and they have
college educations and make less than school teachers I know with similar years
of experience and they work 12 months a year and often long hours. I sure
wouldn't work for what they receive. As for the Council CEO, for the employees
he is responsible for and the many facets of the job, I don't think a Council
CEO is overpaid at 150-200K. I plan to continue my Friends of Scouting donation
and to keep volunteering.
This is a disgusting revelation! Until it is corrected, many of us will
respectfully refuse to participate in FOS.
Scouting is based on service. Not greed. Look at the countless
hours from parents, leaders, and scouts. Who receive zero monetary
compensation.We live in a day of double-standards.Say
good bye to FOS. That scam is over.
This Council is only ONE of MANY that are having huge PR problems with their
"executive compensation" issues. The Orange County, California Council's exec,
regularly makes almost THREE times what Moore does! Also, there are many
"issues" of financial impropriety with the recent Bahamain "leadership
conference" wherein the BSA "leadership" treated themselves to rather lavish
resort "amenities" all paid for with some of the donations from FOS. And YES!
Trapper Trails, Great Salt Lake, and National Park Council(Provo) execs were ALL
there as well. PErhaps it's time to re-evaluate the financial "accounting" that
is put out by each of our Councils. I am stellarly unimpresse with the condition
of several Trapper Trails Council camps, their Camp Staff, and their utterly
disgusting food. It's time for us to tighten up the purse strings and FORCE the
COuncils to provide quality over Executive compensation.
...to see all the comments from SELFISH and Self-rightous people in this blog.
Do you think that these Scout Excutives should work for free?? This is their
full-time job and often an 80 hour per week job at that. When those boys come
knockin at my door I think I will double the amount I pay, because there are too
many selfish people in the Church and out of it, who cannot seem to support an
organization that is still the best thing out there to keep boys and young men
out of gangs and out of trouble. If the Boy Scouts disappear, it will prove that
this nation and its people are becoming too darn selfish, and heaven help us
The Red Cross raises $5.5 billion per year. Their CEO gets %500,000, ie.
roughly $1 in pay per $11,000 raised.The United Way raises $4.07
billion per year. Their CEO gets $350,000, ie. roughly $1 per $11,800
raised.The Boys Scouts of America raises $175 million per year.
Their CEO gets over $900,000 or $1 per $195 raised.In other words,
the BSA CEO's salary is 55 times more generous on a salary to dollars raised
It's obvious; the salary is excessive.But the real question is
whether the Church should be in the Scouting business.My ten cents?
Either,a) drop BSA altogether and concentrate on D2G,ORb)
Limit Church scouting to 11-, 12-, and 13-year olds only. Then get on with life
and YM's. If you (or, rather, your mom) don't "get your Eagle" by age 14, too
What a "comment"-response to something as mundane as Boy Scouts of
America!!(Kudos to Lee Davidson and Editor Joe Cannon.) Why??
Because literally millions of volunteer hours are spent in church scouting
callings.Many of those volunteers recognize the problems with the LDS
Church trying to run its own version of Scouting. Yet we put up with it, and
are usually happy to do so. We believe in the Values of Scouting.But!! Mention a 6-figure salary combined with this opportunity to post and,
Oila! you have a monster on your hands!! Isn't this a clue that something is
wrong? Note to Scout Executives: Don't Worry. If you are as
qualified for your jobs as you say you are, you will have no trouble finding
6-figure jobs in other industries around town if FOS goes down the tubes.
Look at the lives that are touched. Don't be angry and say you will stop
supporting friends of scouting becuase you aren't making as much money as they
are. YOU, my friend, will never,ever have such an impact as they do. I love
scouting and everything that it has done for me, do not be upset becuase you had
a poor experience with scouting. Scouting effects everyone. These people are
doing so much more then you think. BSA you have and always will have my support.
THANK YOU, THANK YOU THANK YOU.
I have served as a scoutmaster in both Utah and out of State in both the webelos
and boy scouts. During my 5 years of cumulative service I don't EVER recall
meeting a single professional scout executive in any capacity. My interaction
was with the Bishop, primary pres, or other young men leaders. The most
memorable camps as both a leader and as an eagle scout were always trips to the
mountains on our own as opposed to organized scout camps. I for one do NOT see
the value added by professional scouts to a program run almost in its entirety
by volunteers within a highly organized church. Perhaps the BSA executives do
work hard and can justify their pay- I don't really know. I do feel, however,
that within the LDS context, the contribution of "professional scouters" is
Years ago I was a finance clerk. During the first scouting drive the bishop
complained to me that he was under more pressure to reach the FOS quota than in
getting ward members to pay tithing or give fast offering.
I heard about this a few years ago. I quit donating then. I now give directly
to our own kids in the ward so I know the money goes where I want it to go. I
coach public school sports for about 6 months out of the year with regular
season, traveling to camps and volunteering to help with clinics, all for about
$2500 total. I'll compare my time with kids with theirs any day. Tears in his
eyes! Give me a break! I'm not big into scouts anyway and have watched several
mothers get their eagles.
This debate demonstrates a real problem with lots of passion on both sides.Here are my questions/comments:* Scouting is another layer of
bureaucracy. * Can you really run two programs, YM and Scouting, well?
Rarely does this happen.* I ran two troops East of the Mississippi. Good
kids, good parents. But next to impossible to run a YM program and a Scouting
program with limited resources. Half the time we went camping without filing
the proper "Tour Permit". Too much crap already on my plate. * "Do one
thing; do it well."* I have two sons that are Eagle scouts; it's great on
their resume. But too often the program comes before the boy.* Scout
Committee? You try to run one with parents whose kids could care less about
Scouting.* Surely we can have a single program that meshes the best of
both organizations. * Kids don't care if you were their Scoutmaster; they
care if you took time to take them camping. That's it. That's what matters.
I don't mind donating to Scouting. I am an Eagle Scout and love the program.I do think they can get some super scouter to do the job for a lot less
and still have a great program. Greedy pigs get slaughtered. Off you go.The only way I am going to stop donating is if they let in the
I'm gladd the truth came out about FOS- I'll be donating no more!!
Should Mr. Moore's and other senior exec's salaries be reevaluated? Yes. However, those of you choosing to use this story as an opportunity to
justify your poor scouting experience, or relieve guilt for your unwillingness
to contribute to FOS are way off base. Scouting is a great program
when it is done correctly. Those of you that clamor for the end of scouting and
complain about FOS have likely never attempted to do it right. Do you really
think another program designed to replace scouting would be any more successful
if you were unwilling to sacrifice time and money for the boys? My
scouting experience shaped my life for good in so many ways I can not write them
all here. If we really cared about the boys we'd be trying to do scouting
right, and not attempting to tear it down because it requires time, sacrifice,
and has some imperfections.Next time you think about your negative
scouting experience, ask yourself it you (or they) were really doing it right.
If the answer is no, then it's no reason to discredit what scouting is and does.
Most of the boys I know in the scouting program do not even want to be there!
Parents make them become part of scouts probably because they don't want to be
known as the parent who did not follow what they were told to do. Most, if
not all, of the teenagers in high school who are scouts are totally embarrassed
that they are in Boy Scouts and would never wear a uniform in public. Even on
service projects they don't want to wear a uniform because they are embarrassed
but the parents MAKE them do it. My gosh, give you son a chance and let him
decide if he wants to be a Boy Scout or not, not MAKE him do it. Many Eagle
scouts come from Utah again because as "From Scouting Program" said "I expect my
boys to become eagle scouts!!" What about asking what the boys want and not want
you, as the parent want? Older boys ARE EMBARRASSED TO BE BOY SCOUTS!!!!!! But
they do it because good old mom and dad say they have to. Ever wonder how
many Eagle Scouts are in jail right now? I do!!!
If it is about the money Mr. Moore than give it back. These salaries should by
itself destroy the BSA. I will never support friends of scouting ever!!
"Office Services". Other comments have already described the great value BSA is
getting in this regard."National Fees". Which go to what,
exactly?Sorry, Arc, but the "expenses" you provide only reinforce
the view of the BSA as a large, inefficient, bloated organization.
It is clear that many comments that have been posted have been written by people
who have no idea what professional Scout Executives do. It seems like people
believe that the volunteers do all the work and running around while the
Executive just sits in his office with a phone to his ear ordering people
around. As the wife of a Professional Scout Executive (who makes no where
near $100,000) I can say that I see first hand all of the hard work, stress,
sacrifice, and long hours that are required to keep the Boy Scout Program
running properly. As great as it sounds to have the program run entirely by
volunteers it is just not possible. No one could dedicate the amount of energy
and time needed to replace a professional Scouter and still manage to support
their family in a full time job.I just want to point out this is probably
not news to Church Presidency because they sit on many of the National Boards of
the Boy Scouts. Scouting is a great program and as long as the church
supports it we will too. The church wouldn't support Scouting if they didn't
believe in it.
"Training for youth leaders: Silver Moccasin, On-Belay, etc."--again, the youth
leaders are volunteers; the people doing the training are already getting paid.
Why this insistence on double-dipping?"Support to chartered
organizations" Name them."Monthly roundtables and program ideas".
Why do you need monthly meetings? You aren't developing new merit badges
monthly. The program doesn't change THAT much--at least, not in a sense that it
affects the experience of the boys."Community Service: Scouting for
Food, Youth Protection Training, and Drug Awareness". Volunteer activities.
What part of "YOU DO NOT PAY VOLUNTEERS" are we not getting here?"Provide camper insurance at council and district sponsored events". Why is
it that I have to go ten spaces down your list to find a legitimate expense?"Community Relations". What does this mean? Why is it necessary?"Provide blanket coverage of liability to protect leaders and
organizations". OK. So far we've reviewed twelve expenses. Two are
legitimate. Congratulations."Council Shops: Places where leaders
can secure Scouting supplies and resource materials". For which they pay
through the nose."Administrative support for Camporees, Klondike
Derbys, and Cuborees." And this can't be done by your full-time professionals
because . . .
Thanks for the stats, Arc. Let's look at them a little more closely, shall
we?"Programs and Services"--Yeah. Isn't that where the other $98
for those Defense Department hammers went, too?"Maintanence and
improvements for 18 camps at 7 facilities". Hmm. And the hundred-plus dollars
that the scouts themselves have to pay to go to camp go towards . . . what,
exactly?"Special programs and activities: Scout-O-Rama, Jamborees,
and much more". Yes. Activities for which, again, the Scouts have to pay if
they wish to participate."Professional Scouters to support units,
districts and the council" Support how, exactly?"Training for
volunteers: Fast Start, Basic and Wood Badge". If they're volunteers, you
shouldn't have to pay them. And the people doing the training are already paid
employees--do you pay them twice?
I would never hire an eagle scout to work for me! The program is corrupt from
the ground up.This article only proves it.Why in the
world does the LDS Church support such a bogus organization?
The BSA provides excellent leadership training programs.And the
First principle of leadership that is taught is that it is OK to exploit
volunteers and cheap labor in order to grow your organization and receive a fat
compensation package!That is true Leadership! Why does everyone have
a problem with that? The LDS church supports it!
NEVER again will I donate to the Scouts!
Where is the money for the young women of the Church? They are excluded from
Scouting - at very least, the Church does not support young women in scouting
the way it does young men - and the lion's share of the Ward budgets go to the
young men rather than the young women!Why this discrimination?
As mentioned above, we really need to give credit to the Deseret News for
bringing this story forth. This was really gutsy. I'm sure that Mr. Cannon &
Mr. Davidson had to overcome some who thought that anything negative against BSA
was wrong.I suspect this will appear nationally the next few days.
And, it should.BSA, time to clean up your act. If you don't, the
money is going to dry up. And, that is not bad.
I'll bet whoever hit up writer Lee Davidson for his FOS contribution wishes he
hadn't done so. If this story doesn't kill the program outright, it will at
least cripple it terribly. Good! Take it out of the poobah's paychecks, and let
them do their own fundraising from now on. Any funds raised at the local level
by the Scoutmasters and their boys, should stay at that level for the troop's
operating expenses. What will probably happen is that the Boy Scouts
will double the already high prices that they charge for everything, from
uniforms to patches, books, materials, camp fees, registration, etc. In other
words, we'll all end up paying the poobahs anyway. I got a lot of
positive things out of Scouting and am an Eagle Scout myself. I just disagree
with FOS and the high salaries that the top leaders are making.
32% comes from FOS 40.5% comes from camping and activity fees.Where
the money goes 3% to Paul. 97% to:Programs and Services Maintanence and improvements for 18 camps at 7 facilitiesSpecial
programs and activities: Scout-O-Rama, Jamborees, and much moreProfessional Scouters to support units, districts and the councilTraining for volunteers: Fast Start, Basic and Wood BadgeTraining for
youth leaders: Silver Moccasin, On-Belay, etc.Support to chartered
organizationsMonthly roundtables and program ideasCommunity Service:
Scouting for Food, Youth Protection Training, and Drug AwarenessProvide
camper insurance at council and district sponsored eventsCommunity
RelationsProvide blanket coverage of liability to protect leaders and
organizationsCouncil Shops: Places where leaders can secure Scouting
supplies and resource materialsAdministrative support for Camporees,
Klondike Derbys, and CuboreesOffice ServicesNational
I made a comment earlier that didn't get posted for some reason, so I'll try to
recap what I said. I'm an Eagle Scout and former Scoutmaster with several years
experience, and I am somewhat disillusioned by the excessive pay that the
top-tier and even mid-level Scout executives seem to be getting. All the
services that the council provides we have to pay for anyway, such as merit
badge partches, training literature, uniforms, etc. People are nickel and dimed
to death, and when FOS time rolls around, they are tricked into thinking they're
donating to the boys when instead it's going to pay those ridiculously high
salaries for the professional Scouters. Scouting is getting away from its
primary focus -- providing fun and educational opportunities for the boys. I
never have liked the bureaucracy, the red tape, the forms you have to fill out.
Seems like the LDS Church can put some pressure on the Scouts here to either
bring the salaries down to a reasonable level, or do their own fundraising work
without pressuring the volunteers and boys to do it for them. Any money raised
by the boys should stay in their troops.
I have devoted 20 years of my adult life to Scouting in a variety of positions
ranging from Assistant Scoutmaster to (volunteer)Adult Training Coordinator.
While some troops considered weekly ward house basketball to be a valid scout
activity, I ran successful troops that provided quality experiences for boys and
helped produce many qualified Eagle scouts. I did it at the sacrifice of my
personal time and many thousands of out-of-pocket dollars. And I did it knowing
that others at the executive level were getting rich while I was merely
fulfilling a calling from my bishop. Fund raising only took time away from
running a quality troop. Even parents didn't always do their part. I have no
personal regrets, but I stopped donating to Friends of Scouting and The
Sustaining Membership Enrollment years ago. I once thought that only the guys in
the crystal palace in Texas were profiting , but now we learn that even the
local execs are skimming the gravy of this alleged "volunteer" organization.
Sorry, but the BSA will never see another dime of my money. Is this how you want
your donation dollars spent?
Let's face it, scouts is embarrassing for the youth (Believe me, it ain't cool
to be a boy scout in a modernday high school), an embarrassment to the church
(molestation scandals, lawsuits, etc.), and a collossal waste of time for the
poor souls who have to babysit a bunch of teenage boys. I learned NOTHING in
scouts, I repeat: NOTHING. Unless you consider fire-starting skills, a totin'
chip, and tying a bowline an important skill for our youth who confront gangs,
pornography, drugs, etc on a daily basis. To all who claim that the
quitting scouts will bring upon us a host of social ills; have you considered
what YM/YW could do if funded, staffed, and supported like scouts.
I am so happy to see the paper run a story like this. Kudos to the DMN.
One thing is clear, BSA is more similar to a for-profit business. Many
employees at all levels of government manage comparable budgets, supervise large
staffs, raise funds through grants and volunteerism, and put in many extra night
and weekend hours for far less salary. Well-educated public servants sacrifice
for a higher purpose. BSA is a worthy institute, but perhaps they need to
reexamine their corporate structure and purpose.
It is absolutely immoral for leaders of a non-profit organization such as
Scouting to be compensated in these obscene amounts.Families
struggling to make ends meet on less than 50,000/year give generously to the
Scouting program even though they have no sons or daughters in scouting.And this is how the money is used?I am appalled and will
never support the FOS drive again.
I am an eagle scout, knowing how much good is done via scouting, supporting the
FOS drive is important. 83% or more goes for scounting services. I donated after
reading this article on purpose. Most involved don't get paid a dime. The new
exec. is better than what we had before. That being said, he is over paid for
this area. We have dozens of scouters with more experience and training,
education that grew up locally and have served here that would do it for 1/2. We
need to pay some of the other full time staff more and Paul less. If he doesn't
go for it, than we have our chance.Donate to FOS, the scouts need
it, even if Paul doesn't deserve it.
Continued from previous post ----I do not think that the Church
should REQUIRE a ward to donate a certain amount to FOS, and particularly put
that burden on the Bishop, who is already putting in many many hours of service,
and being away from his family. He already attends all the ward activities,
usually goes to camp and other outings with the young men - and in our ward with
the Young Women too! It sounds like in Utah there is a lot of
pressure put on the local wards to meet a high FOS goal. Isn't it supposed to
be purely voluntary?The ward members are already donating to the
local pack, and being supportive of fund-raisers for both the Young Men and
Young Women camps and other activities. In addition to tithing, fast offering,
humanitarian donations, etc., we also provide money, food, materials, supplies,
labor etc. for all ward activities, because the budget cannot cover
everything.The LDS church needs to look at a more inclusive young
men program. Still offer support and meeting facilities etc., but not the only
thing offered and backed by the Church.
It makes me sad to see how many people have complained about FOS because they
did not understand where the donation went.I am from Canada, living
in Tooele. Every year my Dad was asked to spend $50 per boy. I think of his
sacrifice and wonder if any one who has complained would sacrifice as he did to
send 4 boys through the program. That is $200 a year. Yes, You are
paying their salaries. IT is a SACRIFICE. It takes professionals to run the
program. They spend 60+ hours a week. I know some professionals who have
callings in Bishoprics and Stake Presidencies. Those who are scouting
professionals are required to donate each year. Those who have
complained, if you get your wish, and you squash Scouting will find that the
world will be a quagmire of your own creation. I for one will stand where the
LDS church leaders asked me to stand and will support Scouting and Friends of
Scouting each year.
Thanks to Lee Davidson and Editor Joe Cannon for such an insightful, hard
hitting article. Obviously, I have been totally clueless, ignorant or naive as
I've faithfully supported, endorsed and even been an active participant in
Friends of Scouting for many years. This will no longer be the case after this
expose. Many other comments already stated express many of the same feelings
I've had as I incredulously read this article this afternoon.
An alternate program has been in place since the Supreme Court considered the
BSA case a few years ago regarding the role of God in scouting. The vote was
5-4 allowing scouting to continue requiring some sort of belief in God. If one
justice had voted the other way, I believe the church would not now be
affilitated with scouting. I also think a break from BSA is warranted because
the church could do it better and cheaper. I believe that it likely will come
eventually. Until then, I do my best to support the program because the boys
need it and they are what matter the most.
The problem people have with scout execs making soo much money is their salary
comes entirely from DONATIONS. Nobody should make this much income off other
I wonder what percentage of the donations come from people that make less than
the people being supported by the donations. I understand that that
these people work full time. The fact that they might be able to earn more at a
for- profit company doesn't mean they should be paid as much as an executive at
a for-profit company. They ask everyone else to sacrifice for
scouting. They should lead by example. They should earn a living wage, not an
This year our ward donated $3300 to FOS. Our entire annual budget for the YM
program was $1800. So the administrative overhead ratio, in our case, is nearly
2:1. Time to restructure or reinvent the organization. The organization now
has the same objective of all bureaucracies: to promote, protect and justify
it's own existence.What does this all have to do with teaching the
boys values and a love of the outdoors?
Add one more name to the list of those who will not donate to FOS in the future.
Benjamin--I've seen my husband leave for school at 7:00 am and
return at 12:00 midnight MANY days over a period of 30 years as he took care of
his duties as teacher and/or principal of a high school. I saw him agonize over
problems with teachers, coaches, parents, students, athletes, , etc. I saw him
lose countless hours of sleep over worry when a kid brought a gun to school,
lawsuits threatened and filed over various issues, having to fire teachers who
didn't perform up to expectations...Calls day and night from angry parents over
teachers, coaches, other students, you name it. Calls from parents in the
middle of the night on a weekend who couldn't find their child (I'm really not
sure why HE was supposed to know where they were on a Saturday night). I could
go on forever. The TOP salary my husband brought home was $73,000. I won't
complain about his salary. He LOVES education and we haven't wanted for
anything in life but I have no tears to shed with Mr. Moore.
Although I do not live in Utah, I am a den leader and committee member with a
son who is currently a Webelos I. We have sold popcorn for four years, and have
made generous donations to Friends of Scouting for the past three years. After
reading this article, no more popcorn sales or Friends of Scouting donations for
me. I will instead give that money directly to our Pack to be used for our boys
and to help boys who need financial assistance to participate in scouting.
Those salaries are absurd and completely unjustifiable even if they are working
60 hours a week. Do the math!
On our ward level I have seen talented, dedicated men and women run outstanding
local programs for their cub scouts, and then scouts. I supported my son as
much as possible, and encouraged him to participate. He loved and admired his
leaders (still does in his mid-20's), and they helped him all they could. He
hated scouting, campouts, snow camping, hiking 30 miles etc. If he had not
participated there was no alternative for him on a weeknight, and group
activities with his church member peers would have been practically
non-existent. He received his Duty to God award, but quit Scouts after becoming
a "life scout".Many years earlier a younger brother, not athletic at
all, and totally disinterested in doing outdoor activities, gradually was left
out of YM (i.e. Scouting!) and became inactive, and still is today.Working in Young Women for years outside of Utah,I have participated in the
Personal Progress program with them, helped plan and raise money for the
EXCELLENT yearly camp. It works! Our Church can support scouting,
but it should not be the ONLY program offered for young men.
A few points of comparison..The head of BSA is getting near
$1,000,000 a yearThe head of the United Way --- $375,000The head of the Red Cross -- $500,000.Both those organizations
are far larger and have far greater revenues than BSA (Red Cross alone raised
$5.5 billion last year. BSA was only $179 million).
TOO MUCH! The BSA accomplishes myriad good in this world, but think how much
more good they could do by turning that excessive salary into facilities and
no-cost activities--things that directly benefit the boys! No BSA council
executive is worth more than $80,000 a year, period. At least Bronco
Mendenhall's work directly brings a lot of money and recognition to the
university--not a valid comparison.
I wonder if all who have complained about the Scout executives' pay also
complain that Bronco Mendenhall's salary is supposedly more than $500,000
annually. I suppose the only way to know if the executives are worth what we
pay them is to replace them with people currently worth (and getting paid),
let's say, $40,000 and see if the Scout program runs any better, the same or
worse. I am not willing to make that kind of a risk. Do we need to re-evaluate
the execs' salaries? Probably, but let's not have the program dissolved over an
article that makes most of feel underpaid.
I knew that the "professional" scouters got paid, but this is a joke! No more
funding the Friends of Scouting from my home. The Church needs to pull away
from the BSA now.
This is just one MORE reason I will never let my boys join the scouts. My first
reason is that they will not include EVERYONE!
There already is an alternative LDS Young Men's Program and it is being utilized
in every LDS unit outside the U.S. I know from experience that it is A GREAT
PROGRAM too!The LDS church is probably reluctant to move away from
the BSA program because it still works to some degree and church money is, most
likely, keeping BSA from going under.It might be time for the LDS
church to run its own less bureaucratic and more effective program in the U.S..
After reading through many of these comments, I am surprised at the ignorance of
people in regards to Scouting and what makes it function. I spent three years
as a professional Scouter. I loved the job, but had no personal life. I often
worked from 7:00 in the morning until 11:00 at night, sometimes six or seven
days in a week. I was responsible for every aspect of the program within my
district. I recruited boys and leaders, did training, organized Scout and day
camps, supervised district leadership, and much more. I left because I was
having to make too many sacrifices of family and personal time. Good Scout
leadership at the professional level is worth every penny and probably much
more. What other program teaches boys to be men and men of integrity. I would
trade one good Scouting professional for a dozen average school teachers. Even
though I haven't been employed by BSA in 25 years, I have continued my annual
financial support (even though I have five daughters) because it is one of the
programs that can really make a difference in our nation.
As a single father of 2 Eagle Scouts, it makes me sick that these people are
being paid like that. Many of us who have kids in Scouts sacrifice, cut, work
more than one job so our sons can have this experience, which I believe is a
good one. I see local Scout leaders also sacrificing along with their families.
I don't have a problem with these other men being paid, but I believe $75,000
should be fine. That's what many high school administrators earn and I don't
believe anyone in public service works harder than those people.
I'm a Scout Master in my ward, and this very article will keep me from donating
to Friends of Scouting.
DavidH: The Duty to God program was NOT meant to teach organizational,
leadership, and life-building skills? And the BSA is the only program on the
face of the earth capable of teaching these values?You've got to be
kidding.I don't interpret any counsel I've received from my church
leaders as a directive to take the funds I'd use to feed, clothe, and shelter my
family and instead devote them to the enrichment of a couple of BSA executives.
And I'd seriously question any church that DID give that counsel.The
BSA teaches values that are useful and, in my view, very relevant today. It may
well be that Mr. Moore accepted his position with the BSA, and generally carries
out his duties, with the purest of motives. He can demonstrate that by refunding
half of his salary to the Red Cross, LDS Humanitarian Services or another bona
I am a Scout and I like scouting. I enjoy Duty to God more, and I wish we did
more of it. I am aware of no 'services' given by the BSA. A 'service' is free;
not compensated. What the Great Salt Lake Council dude said about
touting stuff like Jamborees is a farce. I've never been to one because you
have to PAY to go to them. My ward PAYS for scout camp. Heck, the scouts have
to PAY and WORK themselves to go. It costs hundreds of dollars to send the
scouts to camps, but we learn WAY MORE at Youth Conferences and church
activities. (We have a better time too.) Frankly, we youth love the
church originated programs, and we find the Scouting Programs pretty darn
boring, expensive, and time-consuming. We're practically glad to not go to
scout camp, sadly enough. The camp directors don't know squat and they're mean.
Enough said. Please, respond to this adults and fellow
scouters. Let me know if I and my friends are alone or if others feel the same
I became an eagle scout at the age of 14, back in 1976. This was shortly after
the BSA reduced the requirements to become an eagle. Today, the requirements are
even more watered down. If you earned your eagle in the 60s, then that is
impressive. It used to require a lot of hard work that you performed on your
own. Why is it constantly watered down? Because, the BSA executives know that
the more boys who get their advancements, the longer those boys stay in the
program, the more badges they sell, the more registration money they recieve,
the more parents ignorantly give money to FOS. In short,the security of their
high paying jobs will always come first. If you have someone who is pushing the
program, all the boys have to do is show up and do a few simple things on their
own, and they make eagle at 14. It's not a glorious accomplishment. It's like
HS graduation. Show up every day and study a little and you are there. In my
opinion, the administrative monstrosity that has become the BSA, is a complete
joke. A high paid scouting position isn't "service" in scouting, it's
Where do we find out what the other high paid execs make
So, how much should they earn?
I haven't donated to FOS for years now. Still won't. Sadly, in my job I have
seen many accomplished liars that are Eagle scouts. Maybe they got their
practice by seeing their parents "verify" all the things they did to get their
Eagles? Want more bang for your buck? Focus on the Duty to God program.
Working longer hours and missing weekends gives you an entitlement to make 214K?
You compare school leaders that make 130k. That is a huge difference. Get
your salaries down. Nobody!!! Should be making over a 150K as a top local guy
in the BSA. I'm an eagle scout and when the times comes for Friends
of Scouting. I will be declining this time until I hear further if anything has
When in the course of human events...It is self-evident that the Church
should sever its relationship with the BSA. In my opinion Duty to God is a MUCH
better program and I would be happy to donate my resources (time and money) to a
Church-run program because it would be well run in addition to being
inspired.The BSA will not be receiving any more money from our family.
More accurately, it should be WeBeHighs, as in too highly paid!!! How can they
justify that? I hope they have the moral character to fix this gross over
payment I'm sure they must feel they are "worth" it, but couldn't that money be
better used towards the scouts themselves? They seem to follow the scout motto
well - being so financially prepared and all. But maybe they need to understand
the oath a little better and keep themselves morally straight here. Or maybe
scouts should just go the way of the Dodo.
$214,000 per year......$500,000 per year...for professional scouters...and the
bishop asked for friends of scouting donations today to contribute to this? I
know I'm not the sharpest tool in the box,... but this just does not feel right.
I have long thought the BSA was over-exagerated and over-paid. I also questioned
just how many boy's lives are changed by BSA. I know there are some, but do the
high costs outweigh the benefit? I worked in the non-profit sector
for most of my career at several different organizations, one of which was the
Boys and Girls Clubs. I know there were clubs outside of Utah that had high-paid
administrations, but not here. I felt BGC's impact on kids was much higher than
BSA, and for less money. BGC deals with their kids up to six days a week. They
help them with their homework, teach computers, constructive activities, etc.
They provide this for less money, helping keep kids off the streets after school
while their parents are working.I stopped contributing to FOS
because I could get more bang for my buck elsewhere. And yes, I'm active LDS and
wish the church would make it's own program. I NEVER made that much
working in nonprofits. Probably not many in Utah. I'm sure Moore works hard, but
I think our money is better spent elsewhere. FOS should not be done through the
church. Inspiration will provide a better program.
Statistically, people who brag about past contributions, and then pledge to
never donate again due to new information, actually never gave to begin with. I
will continue to give because I still believe in Scouting. When I see what
Scouting has done for my two sons I realize that I owe much more than the small
amount I can give each year to Friends of Scouting.
Wow! What a lot of negative comments! I hardly recognize the Scouting movement
that I know and love in these posts.It is easy to get hung up on
executive compensation and imagine that we could do as well for less. I have
often wondered why the CEO of my company should be paid $12,600,000 (yes, that's
12.6 million dollars!).However, most of the complaints above are
about bad experiences, not the compensation itself. My own experience as a 2nd
Class Scout was less than satisfactory. But I wouldn't trade my experience with
adults and young men as a Scouter for the world. I appreciate the influence of
dedicated Scout leaders on my Eagle Scout sons and many other young men I have
known over the years.Scouting is not dead, irrelevant or
ineffective. Its values are timeless, and those professional Scouters and
volunteers who dedicate themselves to passing those values to young men are true
heroes!Let's not abandon this great organization! I will donate to
Friends of Scouting as long as I have a dime to my name.
It was shocking to read this article. It seems many connect experiences as a
Scout or Scouter with the notion of loyal payment of money to the councils. The
fact is, does Scouting need professionals? I know of some men and women, all
volunteers, who administer programs to over 13 million people worldwide. I think
Scouting should use the church as a model of what can be done with volunteers. I
join many others in vowing never again to donate a dollar (or a penny) to this
absurd friends of scouting program.
Perhaps his salary should be based on accomplishments, and I don't mean getting
more boys involved in scouting. I would say that based on what I have heard
only about 2% of scouts attain the rank of an eagle. Let's base
professional scouters salaries on the increase in eagle scouts 10-20% or higher.
If he increased the number of young men receiving tenderfoot, star, life, and
eagle significantly then we should be discussing pay raises, not time away from
families: truck drivers do that and don't get compensated equally. Scouting faired far better when the adults who worked with the kids could also
earn those same merit badges, but when they decided they couldn't it started on
a downward spiral. If someone can work side by side with their son or neighbor
they are far more interested in doing the work and show far more enthusiasm. I still believe in scouting and I do agree knot tieing is valuable, I
still use it regularly, and so does fire building, etc. Let's set some sensible
paramenters and go from there.
Amortization? Why? That's handled by school. We do teach
interviewing. Every advancement is accompanied by a Board of Review which is an
interview.Sheepshanks and half-hitches are more important than Excel
spreadsheets. When you're tying a tarp ontop of your pick-up, which will do you
more good? The knots or Excel?Sure that one fellow is paid alot but
it is a large council. Small councils pay less. Professional Scouters work
their tails off and the compensation is low until you reach the upper ranks.
Most of those contributing comments to this article have no idea about what the
real purposes of scouting are. Scouting where run correctly, builds YM into
quality adults. They learn organizatonal, leadership and life building skills.
(You cannot find these principles in the Boys and Girls Clubs or 4 H.) There is
no other organization that can claim such objectives. The LDS Church's Duty to
God program is not able to do this. It is an acheivement program not a
leadership development program. Scouting is expensive, but what is
the value of a boy? Just look at the number of YM that this program affects.
Take a look at your testimonies for you LDS members. We have been repeatedly
counseled to support Friends of Scouting and I intend to continue to support
this worthy organization as long as I am asked to do so.
My family has been heavily involved in scouting and I expect my boys to become
eagle scouts. However as a mother, I did not go through the scouting program and
did not know how it worked. We had one good leader until she moved (cub leader)
and with her gone, my boys will have to progress through the ranks largely by my
efforts, not as much the ward-called leaders who it seems would rather be at
home with their families.I don't know if the reaction to this
article is so much about Mr. Moore and the other leaders' salaries as it is
about so many people seeing that there is something that has vitally changed in
society and scouts has not changed too.I haven't been involved in it long enough
to understand what it is about scouts that is so difficult for so many
people.Keep it up Mr. Moore! But you may be overseeing some sort of
major shift in the scouting program in Utah!
BA degree in German, Spanish and RussianMasters in CounselingSpecial
Education Credential33 years in education60 hour weeks plus 40-50
night events to supervise during school year.Moore earns more than twice
what it took me to get after all the education and years of working. To tell me that you can't get someone as competent as Paul Moore for half the
price. Especially when policies are basically laid in stone and the volunteers
in the trenches do 90% of the work. Something is wrong here. It
will be interesting to see how much money is collected now for SME. What timing
this article is! The Aaronic Priesthood activity program is
operated through the mutual and is based on region and cultural of the region or
country. Scouting is not world-wide. Scouts who are not interested
or are forced by parents who are not involved and often led by men who are not
inspired to be part of this program. Saw scouting florish as a
youth, then stake pulled our leaders to work in stake. New men called and
program went down the tube. They weren't interested in doing what we did to get
I have to shake my head at the attempt to justify compensation for Scout
executives by pointing at school district superintendents. The skill set
required for superintendents (and the competition to keep them) is, in my
judgment, substantially greater than is the case with Scout executives. I have
drawn no hard conclusion on whether executive salaries in that range are
justifiable in the abstract (I have my doubts), but I am certain they cannot be
justified by comparing the two types of positions. And, for the record, I am
not (and have never been) a school district employee.
I owe to the leadership skills taught me by many great scouting leaders, my
entrance to the United States Military Academy and the lives of the many fine
soldiers I lead in harms way as a company commander in South Vietnam. My three
sons are Eagle scouts and have used the leadership skills learned through that
experience. Paul Moore was brought in from Oklahoma by our council for his
demonstrated skills and he has taken an unsatisfactory financial situation and
brought it to one of the best in the nation. Paul is the first Non-Mormon to
lead this council. He is very skilled and highly rated among his peers. He came
here not knowing how well he would be accepted by the many volunteers in the
area and has exceeded everyones expectations. He and his family have become
part of our community and this has actually been a sacrifice from the salary he
would have received from more traditional large councils. Paul Moore has a
great sense of integrity and has given his all for the uplifting and training of
thousands of young men to become leaders in our society.
Scouting is a program in the Church, and programs come and go. The current
scouting program has run it's course, and either needs to be drastically
modified or done away with. The Church does not need the BSA and their over
paid executives! We can do much better by starting our own in-house program.
There are several plaques in my parents home that recognize my dad for his
"generous" donations. My folks live in Kearns and they're not too well off.
When my dad was the bishop he would write a check to cover most of the FOS
"suggested" ward amount. He knew his Kearns ward didn't have a lot of money to
spare. He cut his expenses and donated so his church leaders would not keep
asking him to "ask" members to donate. I am glad for Scouting and earned my
Eagle award. But there were a lot of other kids who didn't care about scouts
and I was the only one on many nights that attended. My dad, the bishop, gave a
lot of time to the ward, worked a full-time job, and then helped out on scouts.
He didn't complain but I know scouts cost him a lot of money and time he could
ill afford. I wonder how many other bishops contribute so they don't have to
ask the ward. Maybe they got plaques for their houses too?
mr moore's salary is out of line, out of whack, and out of sight. sure enjoyed
all the hazing that occurred at our scout camps-that made "men out of us". i am
a school teacher in my 5th year making less than 35k, i am not happy with my
administrators making 3x what I make, but i daily watch them oversee and handle
a multitude of student, parent, state and governmental educational issues as
well as mandated programs, so don't compare mr moores salary even though he has
years of service. lds church: wake up and be a little flexible! quit demanding
scouting as the only option to teach and influence young men. you'll never get
another dime from me. i will pay to the local scouts directly so i can see the
benefit, not fatten your wallet.
"It's clear that many on this list haven't a clue how scouting functions, why
its set up the way that it is, and why the pay is where its at for some top
professionals."Do you mean BSA or LDS BSA Scouting? There is a very big
difference in the two. I just wish the article would of also stated the salaries
of BSA officials and not just LDS BSA officials because if you do your research
there is a very large difference in the salaries of the two. BSA was founded and
run on different principles then how it is run within the church. My
children learned some very valuable lessons from Scouting and I would not trade
that for anything. One of the many things they learned is that you do not have
to make a 6 figure income to care about the boys you oversee!!!!!!!!! Geez,
guess it is REALLY different in Utah!
The Bishop in our ward in Dixie Downs came right out and told me that I could
not have a den because I was not part of the church!!! I had served on the
Executive Committee in Az but here I could not even have a den!!!My sons
tried to continue with Scouting but were not treated like everyone one else
because they did not go to "the church" on Sunday so they did not find out about
events. Needless to say, both of my sons quite Scouting after just getting the
Arrow of Light award. What a shame that was! They loved Scouting but Scouting is
not ran by BSA standards with the church involved. The community pack was just
starting and I wish we had known about them because many my sons would of
continued. It does not take great amounts of money to run a successful
Scouting program but parents and a community that are willing to help out. I WILL NEVER DONATE TO FRIENDS OF SCOUTING IN UTAH
It's clear that many on this list haven't a clue how scouting functions, why its
set up the way that it is, and why the pay is where its at for some top
professionals. Some commenters have made comparisons that don't equate the same
to other professions. Its ok in your minds to pay your School Superintendant
high 6 figures, but a Executive Director of a council can't? Yet he has more
employees, more "students" and more at risk then the superintendant. Utah has 3
top professionals in scouting for the whole state, serving hundreds of thousands
of youth, while the school system has how many people earning 6 figures? How
many of them are "top execs?"Your entry level BSA professional gets about
36k, yet the job is more like a high school principal, then a teacher. How many
of you would want to be a high school principal - and get paid 36k? How many of
you would want to do that job and then have to raise all the money for your
school and its programs - as no state/federal funding pays for your school?Your BSA pros earn their keep. Get the facts.
When my oldest son was 5 years old I fought and started Tiger Cubs in Lake
Havasu City, Az. Then I spent the next 5 years running the only pack in the
area. Pack # 8, Den 6 (5 other dens did not succeed in the past). I did
everything because there was no one else to help. I started off with 3 boys and
when I moved 5 years later there was 174 boys in Cub Scouts. I had a good group
of parents that came to every pack meeting, camp out, hiking trip etc and one
took over when I moved. We were never paid anything other then the gratitude of
the boys and the families. All of our activities, supplies, merit patches, etc
came out of my pocket. The parents that could help financially did but they were
few. Everything I did was for my sons and the other boys, not for me or a
church. We were not sponsored by a church but met at the boys schools. I got the
community to stand behind us and donate all that they could to help out. **Continued on next post**
My son got drunk for the first time at scout camp and learned from the leaders
to use fireworks illegally in the woods. Admittedly, this was in another state,
but I think I am not the only mom who is not impressed with what goes on at
A scout is thrifty, but a scout is also trustworthy and loyal. "'If
you don't pay well, you will not get top talent. If you don't get top people,
you will just fail.' He says if Utah councils do not pay well, the top
executives will simply go to other councils of similar size."Where
is the trustworthiness and loyalty in that?
Mr. Moore must be the highest paid snow shoveler in the world!!! Just think,
how many day laborers they could hire to shovel that snow with a small chunk of
the $214,000 salary so that people wouldn't have to feel bad that Mr. Moore
works so hard!!!
Now I feel sorta duped.I guess I can't get my money I have donated
back, but I think I am going to send them back my Eagle Scout Award from
1978.Should I send it to the BSA or the LDS Church Admin. Building
for most impact?
My Opinion : It is time the church starts their own scouting program ! These
over paid scouter's sound like the days when The United Way was over paying
their workers. I quit giving to the Scouts a few ago when I checked into where
some money I had donated(Not FOS) and asked it to go to buy some supplies for
our Troop . They told me it had gone to pay administrative costs ! I stopped
giving that day even to F.O.S (Fork Over Some more)
Too bad they never read Baden-Powell. This is the irony of it all, Baden Powell
said that the only person in Scouting that should be paid is the secretary.So much for listening to the founder of Scouting...
I've been in scouting for 20 years. Bottom line is the vast majority of boys in
the church don't care about scouting. They only do it because they are forced
by their parents.
I think that the LDS church should dump the BSA and ramp up the Duty to God
program. The church is lean and mean for such a large organization. BSA is not.
The BSA bureaucracy is killing scouting. While the LDS Church is
focusing on simplifying programs (see Elder Oaks' conference talk), BSA is
making things more and more complex and time consuming. These
professional scouters are out of touch. I'll never forget an overnight training
I went to where we sat for hours in a smokey cabin getting chastized for not
doing enough, and the professional scouter teaching us ripped on a counselor in
our bishopric for not holding some meeting regularly enough. I almost cried.
This counselor was giving so much of his time already to our youth. These
professional scouters are not a help but a burden to the volunteers. I would like to see the Church dump scouts and make Duty to God the new "Eagle
Scout" equivalent. The BSA is so caught up in nifty badges and pins and
advancements and self-important leader certifications that they've lost site of
what's most important: ministering to these boys. The boys are more important
than the program.
Excellent article, Mr. Lee. I really appreciate such honest and open reporting
in the D-News on a controversial topic. I have been a fairly consistent and
large supporter of F.O.S. in past years (including this year), mostly because I
support the young men and their local leaders, but I always suspected that a
large portion of the $$ went to scounting executives' salaries. Now that this
article confirms it, I will no longer be donating to F.O.S. BSA should either
cut way back on the salaries, or the church should separate itself from
I run a company that generated $225 million last year.My board would
laugh at me if I asked to be paid Paul Moore is getting.
There was a push in my ward in California to get boys done with the eagle scout
by the time they turned 14. That way they could stop scouting, focus on the
priesthood and other activites set up by the leaders. My favorite memories and
experiences come from those activities after I turned 14, and not scouting. The
huge emphasis on scouting in the LDS church needs to go.
I'm an Eagle scout and a reasonably generous contributor to Friends of Scouting.
I'll continue to contribute to FOS simply as a show of support for my bishop,
since I've seen the pressure he gets to fulfill the quota. (One year, our
ward's contribution packet got returned to us twice before those above us were
finally satisfied with the level of our "voluntary" contributions.) But if the
boycotts some are proposing here bring about a change for the better, I say more
power to them.Despite getting my Eagle, I don't have fond memories
of scouting. I never could see what sleeping in a tent had to do with the
Gospel of Jesus Christ. I learned a lot more edifying life lessons from my
priesthood quorum than my scout troop. The main thing I recall learning from
scouts was how to cope when you're surrounded by boys intent on re-enacting
"Lord of the Flies".
Like scout executives, I too work 60-80 hours a week. Like scout executives,
it's tough on my wife too because I'm never home. The difference... after my
60-80 hour work week, I volunteer 10 hours of my time on my scout calling.
How out of line is the BSAs compensation? Mr Williams manages a budget of $170
million and was paid over $900,000. I work for a fortune 50 company and manage
a budget of $165,000 and make $130,000.The diference (besides our
salaries) is that my budget comes from legitimate sales to the consumer while Mr
Williams budget is based entirely off of donations from hard working people -
some of them who are struggling to make ends meet.
I've lived in Utah, Arizona, California and Idaho... the FOS drive works the
same way in all 4 states. Each ward is given a quota and a tremendous amount of
pressure to make the quota. While our Idaho ward's quota was only $2,700 this
year, when I lived in California it was closer to $6,000. That's on top of the
$1,000 per family the stake asked for from me personally and several other
families to defeat the gay marriage amendment.
Anybody who thinks that the scout executives sit in their offices and do nothing
need to become better acquainted with the program. I have seen nearly every
professional from the Great Salt Lake Council in action, and as a group they
impress. Not only do they put in long hours, but under challenging
circumstances. In 2005 I saw Paul Moore and about two dozen professionals
at Camp Steiner shovelling snow so that the camp could open on time for the
summer. I've seen Paul Moore come up to Steiner at 6am (leaving SLC at least by
4.30) to support the camp program. I've seen professionals like Moore, Kay
Godfrey, and Reid Hall put in 18 hour days wrestling with paperwork,
uncooperative "volunteers", and chronic lack of funds. Yes uniforms and
badges are expensive, but that's not because the scouts are profitting from them
heavily, that's because there aren't 20 corporations competitng to make them.
(It isn't exactly a profitable market). One other note: Given the fact
that the local councils oversee 100,000volunteers and participants, comparing
their salaries to that of a small business is disingenuous. The more
appropriate comparison would be with a company like ExxonMobil (106,100
I will continue to donate as long as church leadership supports FOS, even though
I don't personally agree with the scouting program. I've lived in 5
different states and this blog is a good representation of how church members
around the country feel about scouting. That is... very few boys are interested
and the ward leaders do their best to run the program only because church HQ
still endorses it.
I will no longer be supporting the FOS drive but rather give generously to the
fundraising efforts of the local troop. We are sometimes led to believe that
our FOS donations are to help the local program but it sound like they are used
for "administrative costs." Now that I realize what those costs are I will
rethink the way I contribute.
I will never donate money again to Scouting.
I think I want to be a scout exec some day. To think I spent all those summers
directing scout camps, being camp staff, for near minimum wage!! And as
a local scout leader in a ward, I think I it would be fair to take a percentage
of the FOS dontations, and then keep the rest all locally for our troop, that
way it wont go to the buy our DE a boat fund.
What is funny is to listen to the families of the scout executives defend these
absurd compensation levels.Has anyone noticed which paper generated
this story? It is fair to say that this was run by some of the ownership of the
Deseret News.I suspect that a few LDS church leaders are having the
same reaction we are.
A good program for the "young men" could be achieved just as the the program for
"young women" is done--with dedicated volunteers. There is absolutely no need
for paid executives in order to succeed. Not wanting to spend millions to pay
the salaries of executives doesn't mean that I don't appreciate the need of a
good program for young men. The real work has been done and is being done by
those who care enough to do it without compensation.
While I agree that the compensation appears to be inflated, I think that
everyone is forgetting about the rewards of scouting. Scouting tries to
encourage young men to be their best, learn as much as they can and follow the
scout motto. If all people followed the scout motto and oath think what a
better place this would be. Scouting should look at their salaries
and make some adjustments. Let's not stop our support of raising up fine young
men who hold the values of the scouting program. I will continue to support
scouting because it helps all of us. Think where we might be without young men
following the scouting values.
Scouting IS a great program and needed now more than ever to engage youth in
appreciation of the outdoors. Evidently it IS a great career path as well.
Maybe parents should encourage their kids to be scout execs rather than simply
Vice President, Supreme Court Justice, etc.
I don't mind be solicited by the kids in the neighborhood for donations. I have
never really cared whether it was for Soccer, Baseball, Football, School Fair or
whatever. I view the act of going door to door as "educational" in and of
itself.However, I know the balance sheets of Little League sports
and with the possible exception of Ute Conference Football they all operate on a
shoestring and do not compensate their "volunteers". I know that
Gary Mat. and the Football boys make some serious coinage, due to their CONSTANT
efforts to keep it a secret. I viewed that as a necessary evil to allow 10,000
boys the opportunity to play.But at least their numbers of "kids
involved" are real. For Mr. Boy Scout to justify his salary with 'look at ALL
the boys we have in our program' is either naive or an out and out lie. After reading this article I am going to take the 2nd choice. I too,
will turn away the local kids as they try to sell me Jamboree tickets or similar
donation packets.I will re-print this story to hand them instead.
Having been a Scoutmaster and the father of two Eagles, I'm really sad to say
it, but Scouting has lost touch with the young men of today. It has become an
exercise in old men vicariously reliving their childhoods through young men who
are commanded to submit to it.Though it was inspired for the young men of
a day, the Church needs another program that is more relevant for today's young
men.Duty to God is a good start. Let's flesh it out a little more.
Ok, "Open Minded Thinker", let's look at the data.According the U.S.
Bureau of Labor Statistics occupational survey:* The top 10% of all
corporate executives only average $121,020.* The top 10% of all
attorneys only average $158,660.The top 10% of all physicians only
average $208,000. I can't find ANY profession where the top
10% earn as much as the SLC scout executive.I still say SHAME.
I don't know if this is a repeat. My post didn't show up. 80% of the
money goes for services. Most charity organizations are between 50% and 80%. Not
bad. I don't want the FOS drive to fail, as 80% will go where it needs to.I do want Paul to go we are having to pay him that much. My
Brother-in-law, with education and more experience could do the same job (or
better) for $100k. Even $120k per year would be great, but we are asking
families where both husband and wife together do not make $50k per year to
donate to pay this guy. I will donate enough for an other patch this
year, but Pres. Hinckley and Pres. Monson, who read the paper should complain.
perhaps GSLC will wake up. We have the best scouters in the nation, we don't
need to pay this much for an import.
I think I'm going to throw up. My husband has been in scouting for years. He is
asked to do more and more every year: go to meetings 200 miles away on a week
day during work hours at his own expense (he refused to go); have weekly lunch
meetings with scout execs during business hours that he then is asked to pay for
(he didn't eat and he didn't pay); recruit more volunteers; ask for more money,
more registrations; go to other denominations and get their boys into scouting
as well, so the exec's salary and bonuses can increase because of someone else's
labor; take on additional HOURS of paper work that is not his but the district
exec's responsibility (he handed that back). With all that he has turned down,
he still put in 25-30 hours a week as a volunteer schout leader. The scouting
execs abuse and under-appreciate their volunteers. I've seen it for years. My
husband has been rewarded with plaque after plaque every year for his services,
but someone has yet to buy him a lunch or fill his tank with gas.
Most of you are way off base. Scouting is an inspired program, and enriches the
lives of the boys and adults. And if your boy doesn't want to be there, then I
hope you can find another activity to involve them in, that will give them as
great a foundation for life as does Scouting, which teaches them life skills,
correct principles and reverence for God. If the Scouting executive positions
were not competitively compensated, the organization would have folded by now.
It is no mistake that the LDS Church uses Scouting as their Aaronic Priesthood
activity arm. And if your ward doesn't have an adequate program going, speak to
your bishop about it.
Scouting has not incorporated modern technology in lowering their operating
costs and will not until forced to. In the business world this force comes from
competition, but since they are a monopoly this won't happen. Local troops can
dramatically lower their operating costs by skipping the professional "camps"
and using the State and National campgrounds.I deeply resent the
incessant fund raising done within the LDS church for a completely independent
Something doesn't add up here. The LDS Church pays the registration for every
young man whether he participates or not. Since all young men do not
participate in scouting, that would reduce the cost per boy for services. All
wards are given quota's and fund raising (Funds of Scouting) is an assignment
with no costs attached - yet, the local councils spend more money on fund
raising that other units? In addition, the local troops have their own fund
raising activities to help buy equipment and send the troops to camps, etc.
which is not funded by the national BSA. It sounds to me like funds raised
locally are probably not staying in the local councils but are being used to pay
high salaries elsewhere in the United States. The BSA needs to disclose how and
where local funds are being used/distributed. I don't mind helping the scouts
in my local unit/council if the money stays here. It would bother me if my
money is going back East to pay for some guy's million-dollar salary!!
I don't see how they can compare it to being a superintendent, because teachers
are paid in a school district, local scout leaders are not. Nor do we want to be
paid, quite frankly. I don't see anything wrong with these executives being paid
to train leaders and what not, but it's the $ amount that upsets me.
Part of my problem (abt 90%) with LDS-sponsored Scouting is that there is no
similar program for the young women in the church. (Don't even go there on the
Personal Progress Program -- I was a YW pres. for a long time.) Their camps are
all rough camps -- no professional leaders there either -- while the boys have
dormitories, hot showers, etc. My sons hated Scouting but if you weren't
involved then there was nothing else for you to do. (And the cost of those Oscar
DeLaRenta uniforms?!!!) We lose a lot of boys in the church because of this
problem. I have a brother-in-law that is a "Professional Scout" and I won't even
go there . . . good grief. I will not be paying my $125 "quota", I can tell you
As a scout leader, I knocked doors for hours last week for the Friends of
Scouting Drive, even donating generously myself. I donate money, time, vacation
days, and other resources to the scout program on a weekly basis. I do it
because I believe in what Scouting stands for and I have seen it build character
in the lives of young boys. But to read that these executives are getting paid
THAT much money has seriously shaken my faith in the organization. On the
Friends of Scouting Drive, I graciously waited at the door as this wonderful old
lady went to gather what change she had, which totaled $5. Now to think that
that wonderful old lady's change is going to pay this guy's salary is downright
sickening. I would hate to see the church abandon the program, but something
seriously needs to change.
Too bad many of those who commented here were more interested in themselves than
the youth. It is interesting that we are so worried about what others make
instead of what an impact we can make on youth.I don't begrudge any
of the scout executives as they spend many more hours doing the job than others,
including teachers.I am glad to support the youth program both
monetarily and in serving, I have been a volunteer for 20 years. I also was not
a scout as a youth, but I do have Eagle sons!
I have been envolved in scouting all my life - from scoutmaster, woodbadge
course director, and numerous district postions. The quality of service provided
by the district leaders is sufficient to not need professional scout executives
to baby sit them. Often they get in the way of our succesful programs. I suggest
scout excecutives only be used in to run scout camps and not be assigned to the
the scouting districts. Trust the district leaders to run the scouting programs
in their districts. This way the number of executives would be greatly redused.
Also if the council president Mr.Moore would cut his $200.00 plus salray at
least in half, for an excample to the other scout excutives, much money could be
saved. It is indeed unfortunate that scouting has become a big business and not
a service for boys
I've been to my local scout office and I'm not impressed with how they run the
thing. I asked for a history of the eagle scouts in my troop for the past 3
years and I ended up getting passed from one person to the next before finally
looking through binders myself for about an hour to collect the data. Ever
heard of a PC? Give me a break, what is the incentive for the Boy Scouts of
America to be financially efficient? Who do they answer to? They have no
shareholders. I believe the intent of the program is good and much good is
accomplished. If someone is in it for the money, I believe they have the wrong
motivation and aren't who we are looking for.
I will continue to support scouts. It is a great program and the boys need it in
todays society. But it sounds like we are top heavy and need to change a few
I will be happy to keep helping the boys as Scoutmaster, but my pocket book will
not be open to pay that kind of money to professional scouts. I am very
troubled by this information.
Our 2 sons benefited greatly from scouting. Who cares about comparative
salaries? It means nothing. The benefits of the the Scouting Program far
outweigh any other issues. I applaud all the volunteers who donate their time
and work diligently to make scouting fun for the boys. People don't whine about
the millions that rock stars make. It's the law of supply and demand. There
are many more physicians, teachers, and whatever other profession you want to
name around the country. Professional scouters salaries should not bother
anyone. The money donated by people is put to good use. What about all the
boys who get into trouble with the law, are on drugs, etc.? I would venture to
say that far fewer boys are running afoul of the law are boy scouts. The
churches in Utah that sponsor scout units are doing society a big service. I
would advocate contributing to scouting. Take a look at what happens to funds
donated to a lot of the high profile charities around the country. A large
amount of the funds donated to those organizations are sifoned off by
organizations doing the fund raising....a small portion of the funds contributed
As others have written, the BSA has taken their last donation from me. The program has done wonders for my 4 sons, but Scout offices are notoriously
poorly run. Every family learns to be meticulous in their record keeping because
odds are, the scout office has screwed something up.I see no
evidence of scouts being well run by its executives. Scouting
flourishes because of volunteers. It flourishes DESPITE paid scouting
leadership, not because of it.
I have worked in scouting for more than 20 years. I also was a life scout. Many
years ago the scouts in our ward were making plans for their scout camp that was
going to be bigger than in years past. It was discovered that there were funds
enough to send one more boy--a boy from a single mom who hadn't participated in
the annual fund raiser; however, the scout master protested--claiming it wasn't
fair to those boys who had worked at the fund raiser. I was disappointed in all
those who upheld that decision. Since then, I have been very upset at the
compensation of professional scouters--especially those making huge
salaries--while the rest of us volunteer. I will not be supporting friends of
scouting ever again. I hope the LDS church realizes that the scouting program
is not what it should be.
I have long thought scouting being the activity arm for the young men was a
waste for many that had no interest in scouting. We, in the church, tend to put
more emphasis on getting eagle than the priesthood. My days of participating
were over when a professional scouter, speaking at an Eagle court of honor said
there were eagles and turkeys.
I'm LDS and I've watched the young Women's program develop and flurish. I'm
wondering when the LDS chuch will gracefully part from the Gluttenous scouting
program and develop their own Young Men's program. I'm part of Scouting, and
honestly need to try hard to keep my "game face" on for both the young men and
the church leadership. I think they should hire someone at the church office
building for $70 k a year and give them 2 years to develop a young men's program
by leveraging other Church resourses and I think you'll find a much more
That's it...no more donations from this family. I've been a leader in the
Scouting program for a long time and I'm finished. BSA's impact on our local
unit is nill. Every year we get a higher quota for our Stake from BSA...for
what? Our troop quit going to organized BSA scout camps because we were
mistreated by the staff and disappointed in the programs. A self-organized camp
has always been our best result. We don't need Mr. Moore for that....
What good did this article do?Not one mention of a better
program.No suggestions for improvement.Just jealousy and
dissatisfaction. Sounds like Ralph Nader.
In the 70's I lived in Idaho and was trying to buy a home. However the new
scout executive came in and paid cash. I found out he was making four times
what I was as a medical rep. Perhaps executives in teaching and scouting better
wake up before volunteers revolt and they have to work 200 hours a week to prove
their worth. WAKE UP PEOPLE OVER SCOUTING BEFORE IT'S TO LATE TO SAVE
THIS GREAT PROGRAM.Thank you Wayne.
PLEASE DUMP THE SCOUTING PROGRAM !Duty to God and mutual nights are
sufficient to meet the boys needs. In every ward I've been in the boys resist
the scouting program. This article and blog prove that there's no interest at
the grass roots level and it's a runaway train at Sr. Leadership levels.
I don't like what has happened to scouting. It was a good program when it
started and did good things until the people at the top got greedy. He can get
as teary eyed as he likes but that salary is WAY over the top for the amount of
work he does. They don't train the volunteers like they should, they require all
sorts of funds they do NOTHING to obtain and they stay as uninvolved in anything
requiring actual work with the boys as possible. I have NEVER given money to the
program and I never will. I am so GLAD Deseret News wrote this article!The Girl Scout program is not any better.
I did not donate this year...Now I think I made the right decision!
My wife and I regularly donate 500 hours and about $500 dollars to BSA each ear.
I didn't realize that my efforts included a 2% tax to fatten some Executive's
pay. Yet another thing wrong with our society.
Excessive Compensation justified because they work hard? Give me a break! I
used to give to Friends of Scouting, but not now!
Boy have things changed! I was raised as a scout execitives daughter and as I
recalled we lived pay check to pay check. We lived in a small home. My parents
bought groceries once a month. When the peanut butter and jelly was gone we
would put Ketchup on our toast. We ate homemade bread, one gallon of milk was
stretched to 4 with the addition of powder milk. We wore hand me downs till we
were old enough to get a job. My dad worked hard at the office all day and at
meetings somewhere most every night. He was an execitive about 35 years. Many of
those in the great Salt lake council. Somewhere along the line something has
gone real crazy in the last 30 years!
I've been "called" to lead scouts at every level, and despite the fact I've
never received a dime for it I wouldn't hesitate to do it again.But
if I were *hired* by an organization to it *full time* then you're darn right
I'd want to be well-compensated, or I wouldn't do the job.Everyone
thinks they're underpaid while everyone else is overpaid. I highly doubt that
99% of the people complaining about these salaries would turn down the job or
return part of their paycheck.No, they'd take it straight to the
bank, because they'd believe they deserved it.
Not every ward in the Church automatically registers all boys for Cub/Boy
Scouts. In fact, I've never seen that done outside Utah.
I have always refused to put money in the Friends of Scouting-envelope that our
LDS ward "compels" you to fill. Instead I found ways to give it to support girls
activities. Glad I did. I hope this article will be an eye-opener for many.
While the objectives of Scouting are noble, this article exposes a huge problem
with the LDS Church's association with the it. The compensation practice within
the Scouting organization is a clear misuse of donations and once again calls
into question, "what does the money I donate go towards?" With the legal issues
already shadowing this program, this scandal seals the fact that this program
needs to be purged and re-focused on the true purposes upon which it was
founded. The LDS Church is the Scouting program's biggest financier. FOS uses
high pressure fund raising tactics to preserve it's revenue and places an
incredible burden upon the Wards of the LDS Church to accomplish it's goals.
This article exposes very concerning behaviors and issues with the Scouting
program that cannot be overlooked. It is incumbent upon all members of the LDS
Faith to re-examine their relationship with the Scouting program and how they
individually choose to support it. For me personally, I will no longer be
donating to the FOS and will more generously donate to other areas within the
LDS Church where I know how the funds will be used and not merely padding the
pockets of overpaid non-profit executives.
My husband and I are both Cub Scout Leaders. While I tend to agree that there is
reason to question the salaries I also wonder at a second issue raised by the
others posting here. I felt I had to comment on the boys not wanting to go. We
are members of a community pack where all our boys are there by choice. They
work hard, have lots of fun and are often hard to send home. They greatly enjoy
being members of the pack. As a teacher the difference from the boys who want to
be there and my students who must is amazing. If your boy isn't interested in
the scout activities you might want to find out why.
Wow. Being in scouting for years - I've done what ever it takes to get the job
done. Taken vacation time off work, camp outs, friends of scouting, scout camps,
merit badges, etc. I'm sorry but for a non-profit organization -
that is way to much compensation. That was a great article. Something should be
The scouting propram ie no different than all the organizatione that ask for
your donations. I am amazed that people continue to be so gullable.
Mr. Moore works long hours and says he could go elsewhere for more money.
Please go! Many of us work very long hours too and don't approach this amount.
With all the experienced scouters in the valley, I'm sure BSA can find an
honest, hard-working scouter who won't "rob" the unknowing Friends of Scouts
contributor who are being strong-armed by leaders to contribute.
Whether just culturally or instituitionally, the scouting program should not be
so intertwined with the LDS church.I believe it to be a huge
conflict of interest to have ecclesiastical leaders "fund-raising" for this
program (especially now, where we see that these funds go) and to "call" or
basically require both children and adults to commit to this program. The LDS church should make this program solely voluntary (and no, by the
bishop "calling" someone to this position does not make it voluntary) and let
those interested to participate in the program merely sign up and participate.
No more Friends of Scouts contributions from me. What benefits do we see from
these professional scouters? Not much from what I can see. The penalty for
not reaching quotas for their salaries goes right against the Scout Law. I'm
boycotting the next Friends of Scouts drive.
Scouting shouldn't be compared with the inflated prices of corporate America
because most of the funds generated in scouting are donations which makes it
even worse of what we see in other corporations.This article makes
me sick and I will never donate to any scouting program every again.
I would like to see a follow-up story on the Young Men's program that the LDS
church created many years ago and then shelved because too many people wanted to
keep the "tradition" of scouting. If we took the money and energy we spend
trying to keep the national BSA happy (and well-paid), we could have an
organization for our young men that would be incredible in making opportunities
to provide powerful, meaningful service to the world and actually building
character in our young men.
Excellent article! It's always nice to know what the truth is. The fake tears
at the end of the interview by Paul Moore were tears of probable and eventual
I couldn't believe what I just read. Both my boys became eagle scouts in Europe
while we were stationed in Belgium. We did our own programs with no help from
"The Council." Now, 25 years later, I still give more than asked for to
"Friends of Scouting." NO MORE! Look at all those who donate time in the
trenches, while those who sit in the office for a reported 80 hours per week,
make $200,000 plus - a complete rip-off. Working so hard, how can they have
time to spend that kind of money, Hah! The Church ought to pull out of
scouting. I WILL!!
the problem when the boys come looking for donations, is we know who they are
and we want to help them. sending them away empty handed is almost implying we
dont care. too bad its not the executives that go door to door begging for
I for one have never given to FOS. I earned my Eagle in a SLC troop. This year
is the first time I have ever even heard of FOS. My bishop who's son is in a
another troop outside of the church does not agree with it,nor will he ask the
members of our ward to donate. As far as boys in scouting, most are not
interested due to the lack of parental support of the program. As far as
leaders having to pay for everything, turn your receipts in and get reimbursed
by the ward. That is the program. Scouts should have its own budget allocated
to them,besides the young men's budget and with the size of wards in Utah, that
should be substantial.
I am a former Boy Scout, Scoutmaster, Friends of Scouting VOLUNTEER. In a recent
movie a statement was made. "There is nothing so strong as the HEART OF A
VOLUNTEER." I feel these posted comments are rather affected by attitude. I am
greatful for the training I received in Scout Leadership Training and Woodbadge.
I worked through the years with hundreds of men in our Council. I saw all kinds
of men. Disinterested leaders without training had disinterested boys. As a boy
I was under two troops.The first for 15 months and I had good advancement.
The second with disinterested leaders and I had very little advancement. I did
not get my Eagle. I have accumulated many stories of how being an EagleScout help men obtain jobs and improve their careers. I also have stories of
men who after Woodbadge training improved their education and careers from
leadership skills they obtained. I also have one story of a leader who said, "I
have made up my mind these boys are not interested." He was not interested
himself. Is the posting of the late night 8 comments acutally made late night?
Volunteers at late night? I don't know.
Why not pay them what they are worth? If they are doing an incredible job then
they should be paid accordingly. There is a big difference between doing this
part time as a volunteer and full time. I have done this part time in Logan as
a volunteer and am amazed at how well things run.
For many years our troop has used non-BSA sites for summer camp. The boys have
more fun, can do more merit badges, the food is edible and the cost is no where
nearly as high.Most of the 'expensive development' and camp maintenance is
done by volunteers so you can cross that off the list. Gee....
You all should be ashamed of your negative comments. BSA has helped countless
number of boys in so many ways. Having been a volunteer leader in BSA for over
20 years, I do not regret a single moment. I cant describe the feeling when a
young man comes to me after he is married & having children, and expresses his
appreciation for his experiences as a youth in our troop, and I can observe him
for how he turned out when I may have had doubts when he was younger.
Every year I faithfully write a substantial check to support the Boy Scouts.
After reading this article, I will NEVER donate another dollar to Friends of
The Boy Scout program is no longer effective in helping boys to stay out of
trouble or learn skills that apply to life. Kids no longer need sheepshanks or
half-hitches, they need to know about amortization and how to speak
intelligently in a job interview.Forcing kids to go to scouts
doesn't help them in any way. It's time for the LDS Church to do the inevitable
and transfer its resources to a program that is less bloated and more in tune
with what kids need today. Let kids who want to be in scouts do so, and let the
other kids learn life lessons other ways.
Very said disclosure indeed. If this guy lived in NYC, then perhaps his six
figure salary could be justified. But, in SLC, this salary is way above the
norm. It's ridiculous and irresponsible on the part of the BSA
I agree the salaries are out of line. But after looking at the comments, I am
surprised. I too have experienced the frustration of uninterested youth and
parents. But the problem is not scouting the program. It is us. We have let out
youth get too interested in TV, Games, Internet etc. Scouting provides balance
and teaches important gospel principles to YM through its activities. It is easy
to blame a system or others for the problems. When you think the problem is out
there or someone else, you become the problem. Push for positive change, but do
not criticize the program.
Now it makes sense. I've always wondered why so we had to send so much money to
the the BSA with little or zero return on investment. Although I had some
nebulous idea of how much was wasted, I had no idea it was this bad.There is absolutely no way that I will ever participate again in the form of
donations. What a joke. I guess anybody can rationalize anything if they try
I have been a Cub Scout Committee Chairperson, Den Leader, and Cub Master. I
put 150% into these "callings". You reap what you sow. Those years were a
blast!!! Other volunteer positions were poorly staffed, so I planned the summer
day camps, too. The spirit of scouting was alive in our little area. High
attendance and constant advancements. Enthusiasm and preparation go a LONG way.
I am a huge supporter of scouting. Someone has to be "on top", though. That is
their career. Of course they need to be compensated. My husband was a DE
(district executive) for a while. However, he made more money teaching, still
with children, and he didn't have to spearhead fund raising! Yes, the popcorn
is good, BUT....
There is so much whine in here, where people are getting drunk on self pity.Of course the scouting has aspects of it that are like a corporation.
Would you really want a volunteer working 60+ hours per week at Paul Moore's
professional Scout executive?Steven says "The level of compensation
exceeds what is available in most private corporations of similar size." Which
survey did you read? I know a company of 13, in which three of them make more
than Paul Moore does.If you all complain loud enough, maybe you can
force Paul Moore from his job and the Great Salt Lake Council can get a "real
volunteer" to come in and screw up the job. Your whining, if successful, would
only make scouting go backwards.
My bishop is going to be really upset! For the News to write about a LDS church
program, this is going to hurt the volunteer collection program. I'm going to
say no this year when they ask me to help. I bet this story gets yanked!
It seems to me that Scouting has the same executive inflation which many have
noted in industry. Their salaries, over time, have increased dramatically
vis-a-vis the salaries of entry-level employees.It is time for both
industry and Scouting to bring their executive salaries down out of the
stratosphere. There is no reason the chief executive's salary should be more
than three times the entry-level employees'.
The News could do a great service by letting us know what other youth programs
are out there without high-priced leaders. I feel that if everyone involved
cares enough to volunteer, the primary purpose is the youth. When you care
enough to give your very best -- your time -- the outcome is a better product.
If the purpose is to make a buck, you don't care about the end product. Kids
are not "products" or "programs"!!!
Powell, the retired executive from the Utah National Parks Council, said,
"When people asked what I do, I said name any 10 careers and a Scout executive
touches them."He said that includes being an educator, human
relations director, salesman, promoter, organizer, disciplinarian "and sometimes
a security guard, a plumber, a custodian or a garbage man if that is what the
job requires."Sounds like about half of what a teacher does
yet the teacher makes about one fourth of the salary.I, too,
stopped giving to friends of scouting this past year. I just became
disillusioned with the whole scout office. They keep dishing off their work
on to us. Now they don't even do the merit badge paper work for us. We have to
go online and try to navigate their horrible website while doing our "volunteer"
work. My goodness what do the people in the office do?By the way, I
am a former scout master and our ward met the FOS quota each year. I have never
heard of the 10% gold level discount. Where do they keep that secret?
My boys did not like scouting, but they were registered anyway. Most of the
boys didnt want to be scouts and the poor scoutmaster only lasted a year just
herding boys each week. it was a waste of time and money and did very little to
build character. i took my kids to camp and it was a horrible week trying to
keep all the kids out of trouble because they had no interest in the "program"
and were upset they "had" to go.The local council may have big
numbers, but the boys are not there because they want to be. If it were
volunteer only, the numbers would be 100th of what they are now.
Scouting is no different than any other business.Most CEO and presidents
make huge sums of money and pay employees little. The boss gets the free trips
to watch the Jazz or the Cougars. The boss gets the free dinners in the Jazz
Sports Club. When the boss goes to lunch, it's on an expense account. When the
boss visits his kids in Colorado, he stops in a related business so he can write
off or expense the trip. The boss' cell phone is company paid. The company
pays the boss parking space. The boss has little idea how his product is
produced (in most cases). When the boss promises something to his board of
directors, he is NEVER held accountable. If he leaves, he gets a LARGE bonus,
no matter the performance or promises. The boss ALWAYS gets a huge annual bonus
-- and usually never contributes to the product.Scouting is no different.
It's a business and it's big bucks.
Maybe the scouging "big business" is what's killing scouting?When I was an
avid scout kid in a state to the East of Utah, the boys in the troop wanted to
be there and our parents were the leaders and TOOK us to camps. I remember time
spend with my dad!The only (ONLY) paid scout person was a lady who ran the
office and managed the paperwork. The scout exec was a local business person
who VOLUNTEERED as a way to help the community. His time was DONATED to the
program and he was a very influential business leader and community leader --
and he cared enough to volunteer and use his community skills to help the
program.Scouting has become a BIG business -- and it seems, all
about money and not about youth. I need to find an all-volunteer
community program to donate to. A group with focus toward people and not toward
making money. (Have you ever priced scout uniforms and patches? It's costly)
I have been "called" to be a scout leader several times. I have to manage kids
who don't want to be there, beg parent involvement of parents who don't care if
their kids participate, use my own truck to haul gear and pay my own gas. I get
the "opportunity" to raise funds. Let's see....I have to figure out how to get
funds for camps -- oh, and I have to take my vacation days to take kids camping
because parents will not go with their kids. So every time I get "called" I
figure on a big family budget hit, my truck gets damaged, and I have no vacation
to spend with my own family. And for this, my pay is.....
You should note that in every Mormon ward, EVERY boy aged 8 through 18 is
registered in Scouting whether they're interested in Scouts or not. Many (a
majority in the wards I've been in) have no interest in Scouting. So it becomes
a weekly babysitting day where boys, who don't care for Scouting, just hang
around and often get into mischief.And then once a year, the poor
Scout leaders have to figure how to pay for expensive camps, buy expensive
badges and feed hungry Scouts. And then go door to door and beg for funds.I've wondered how many boys would register if a) the program was
voluntary and not mandated by the LDS church and b) parents ( or boys ) had to
pony up the registration costs now 100% paid for by the LDS church.
I never liked Scouts when I was that age because I was forced to go. All I heard
for years was 'Eagle Scout, get your Eagle Scout.' I do agree that this article
has killed the Friends of Scouting campaign. My ward has been beating the
streets for 2-3 weeks. Maybe now the LDS Church will see they have been duped.
I am a scout master in our area. I have a master's degree and about 15 years in
Scouting. I spend about 9 hours a week for the boys, yet I am paid nothing for
*my* time. To say that my time and experience are worth nothing while theirs is
worth over $200,000 is an insult to me.Let them pound the pavement doing
Friends of Scouting from now on.
This is absolutely absurd. The level of compensation exceeds what
is available in most private corporations of similar size.I have two
boys in Scouting. But I will not be making further Friends of Scouting
donations. I am appalled.
Well this article just killed Friends of Scouting. Bummer.