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Upward of $8 million spent on vouchers
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Anonymous | 8:11 a.m. Nov. 8, 2007
Eight Million spent and the numbers almost never changed.
Oh well, I guess it was good for the economy.
Oh well, I guess it was good for the economy.
M | 8:15 a.m. Nov. 8, 2007
OH BROTHER!! Ever heard the expression you cant beat a dead horse? It is over
already! Let this one go for now, if this was a close race I could see why it
would keep coming up but enough is enough!
Comments continue below
Wasted money | 8:23 a.m. Nov. 8, 2007
Of course the pro voucher people will never admit it but that was money
wasted.
It could have paid for the vouchers themselves this year.
The people have spoken.
We like our public schools. We recognize they can be improved. We know the only way to fix them is to increase the salaries of the teachers to the point that we get a surplus of teaching candidates. Once that happens we can pick and choose from the best. That is called the free market approach. The problem is we can't do that unless the legislature provides the money to do so.
That is the solution. That is what we want to see.
It could have paid for the vouchers themselves this year.
The people have spoken.
We like our public schools. We recognize they can be improved. We know the only way to fix them is to increase the salaries of the teachers to the point that we get a surplus of teaching candidates. Once that happens we can pick and choose from the best. That is called the free market approach. The problem is we can't do that unless the legislature provides the money to do so.
That is the solution. That is what we want to see.
Stephen in Tallahassee | 8:41 a.m. Nov. 8, 2007
I find it funny how the decision of vouchers on education was decided by those
who failed to educate themselves and just followed the commands of the UEA and
the NEA. Thanks Utah for messing up education for the rest of the country. We
were looking for you to lead instead you will just have to follow when another
state will have to show us the way to tackle poor education standards. Next time
vote according to your conscience instead of following scare tactics
Just give the schools some $$$ | 8:44 a.m. Nov. 8, 2007
Let's face reality. We need to fund our schools better. The public has
spoken and it needs to finally be done.
My legislator in Utah County sent me a letter telling me how much they have done for education. They said how they have increased funding by so much.
In reality they have kept and even line at best.
Of course education spending has increased. The number of students has increased. When you have more kids you have to spend more.
Simple economics.
The letter I would like to see would say:
We have seen the election results. We realize we work for you. We are listening and will do all we can to improve education funding in Utah. We have this huge surplus again this year and we are finally dedicated to making our schools the best they can be by paying for good teachers.
I know, I know, I live in a dream world.
My legislator in Utah County sent me a letter telling me how much they have done for education. They said how they have increased funding by so much.
In reality they have kept and even line at best.
Of course education spending has increased. The number of students has increased. When you have more kids you have to spend more.
Simple economics.
The letter I would like to see would say:
We have seen the election results. We realize we work for you. We are listening and will do all we can to improve education funding in Utah. We have this huge surplus again this year and we are finally dedicated to making our schools the best they can be by paying for good teachers.
I know, I know, I live in a dream world.
4kidmom | 9:03 a.m. Nov. 8, 2007
I disagree with Leah Barker's comment in the article that to have spent the
4million from advertising on scholarships to the Children First foundation would
have been a temporary solution. Not so! That IS the solution. Private dollars
going to private enterprise. The pro voucher movement needs to concentrate
their resources on developing scholarships not on government educational
subsidies. JMHO
Agree with wasted money | 9:13 a.m. Nov. 8, 2007
Ditto!
Let the free market approach work. Supply the money so real changes can happen in Utah.
It is the only way it will work.
Let the free market approach work. Supply the money so real changes can happen in Utah.
It is the only way it will work.
ClampetUT | 9:16 a.m. Nov. 8, 2007
Pro or con, it's sad to see that 8 million dollars was spent that had
little, if any, direct benefit to education in Utah. By my calculations,
that's equal to the cost of educating over 1,100 children for one year.
RE: Stephen in Tallahassee | 9:23 a.m. Nov. 8, 2007
The fact that someone from out of state is saying Utah did the wrong thing
pretty much shows us we did the right thing!
Thanks for confirming our vote.
We have some of the best schools and teachers in the nation. All we need is some money to reduce class sizes and then we can show the nation what education in the USA should really be like.
Thanks for confirming our vote.
We have some of the best schools and teachers in the nation. All we need is some money to reduce class sizes and then we can show the nation what education in the USA should really be like.
holladay | 9:25 a.m. Nov. 8, 2007
17 million dollars a day!? Could we get the school districts
audited?...I'd like to see what they are spending my money. Probably more
for athletics then on academics.
DougS | 9:28 a.m. Nov. 8, 2007
Wasted Money: I'm generally pro-voucher, and I agree it was money wasted.
The plan itself probably should have revolved around tax exemptions rather than
actual hand-outs. The drafting of the bill was careless. And the voucher
advocates resorted to distasteful and even underhanded tactics.
That said, there will be no significant "fixing" of the public schools as long as the UEA keeps calling the shots:
1) The UEA is unwilling to do what it takes to get equitable pay for Utah teachers if, in doing so, it puts its own institutional interests at risk. They have a virtual monopoly on the educational labor force in Utah, and could have instituted a strike any time they wanted. They haven't--most likely because even though a strike would probably be wildly successful, it would give them a black-eye in public relations.
2) The UEA does not want the accountability that will come with a free-market approach. Institutionally, it wants to keep as many of its members working (and paying dues) as possible. Individually, its members naturally fear having to truly compete for their jobs.
That said, there will be no significant "fixing" of the public schools as long as the UEA keeps calling the shots:
1) The UEA is unwilling to do what it takes to get equitable pay for Utah teachers if, in doing so, it puts its own institutional interests at risk. They have a virtual monopoly on the educational labor force in Utah, and could have instituted a strike any time they wanted. They haven't--most likely because even though a strike would probably be wildly successful, it would give them a black-eye in public relations.
2) The UEA does not want the accountability that will come with a free-market approach. Institutionally, it wants to keep as many of its members working (and paying dues) as possible. Individually, its members naturally fear having to truly compete for their jobs.
Think Again | 9:32 a.m. Nov. 8, 2007
Instead of pouring more money into the public schools, use some of it to
"educate" a few of the pathetic parents whose children make it
difficult to teach!
There, I said it. I know a lot of you were thinking it!
There, I said it. I know a lot of you were thinking it!
grundle | 9:44 a.m. Nov. 8, 2007
I don't think that investing in a political cause you believe in is a waste
of money. It really is putting your money where your mouth is. In hindsight
the losers will have always wasted their money.
If Vouchers had passed, it would have been the teachers unions that would have wasted their money.
I appreciate all the attention that education has recieved. Although I was for vouchers, perhaps this was a wake-up call for all involved to face the issue of improving our education system and providing our children with the best education we can.
I see some voices calling for our legislature to give more money to the schools. Just understand that the money you are calling for must come out of our pockets. As for the surpluses, one time distributions to school districts have proven in the past not to be the best strategy (Tooele cheerleading outfits instead of books comes to mind) and would not address the issue of teacher salaries.
Just my thoughts...
If Vouchers had passed, it would have been the teachers unions that would have wasted their money.
I appreciate all the attention that education has recieved. Although I was for vouchers, perhaps this was a wake-up call for all involved to face the issue of improving our education system and providing our children with the best education we can.
I see some voices calling for our legislature to give more money to the schools. Just understand that the money you are calling for must come out of our pockets. As for the surpluses, one time distributions to school districts have proven in the past not to be the best strategy (Tooele cheerleading outfits instead of books comes to mind) and would not address the issue of teacher salaries.
Just my thoughts...
BH | 10:50 a.m. Nov. 8, 2007
Stephen in Tallahassee suggests that Utahn's were led astray by big bucks
from the NEA and UEA, and failed to vote their consciense.
Any accusation from either side suggesting that funding for the opposition was inappropriate, is hypocritical.
The vast majority of funds for the Pro position came from one individual, seemingly forcing his position upon the state. Interesting that so very, very few of the 35% of Utah that voted for vouchers never valued them enough to contribute.
The vast majority of funds for the Against position came from the UEA and NEA, most from outside the state of Utah, seemingly forcing outside political forces upon Utah. Not quite as important that so few Utahn's contributed to the anti position, as those against the vouchers weren't the ones trying to sell something new.
Any accusation from either side suggesting that funding for the opposition was inappropriate, is hypocritical.
The vast majority of funds for the Pro position came from one individual, seemingly forcing his position upon the state. Interesting that so very, very few of the 35% of Utah that voted for vouchers never valued them enough to contribute.
The vast majority of funds for the Against position came from the UEA and NEA, most from outside the state of Utah, seemingly forcing outside political forces upon Utah. Not quite as important that so few Utahn's contributed to the anti position, as those against the vouchers weren't the ones trying to sell something new.
Drew | 10:58 a.m. Nov. 8, 2007
As grundle points out, much of this "surplus" is just one time money.
Why doesn't the legislature allocate some of that to school infrastructure.
Especially, since they were the ones that allowed the Jordan District to split
- which will result in hundreds of millions of $$$$$$$$$ on both sides of the
split. New schools and rehabiliation of old schools, not to mention the
institutional buildings that will be needed.
Fight is FAR from over | 11:01 a.m. Nov. 8, 2007
If anyone, pro or anti voucher thinks the fight is over because of one vote,
think again.
What the amounts of money spent on this campaign show me is that there are interest groups willing to spend alot of time and resources to get momentum started for their cause. We will probably see this issue for years to come, in many forms.
The question I have is why there is so much circular logic around this issue? Many taxpayers say they don't like the fact that the tax system for education in Utah is not based on a head count, meaning that a 2 person family pays as much as an 8 person family who has the same value of property.
Well, didn't Utah just vote down one solution(not THE, as there are many solutions) to the problem of no head count? If these families sent their children to private school, they would still pay the same tax, plus pay part of their own way for the more expensive private ed. So, this was a way that we could get them to pay more for their kids education, rather than using larger portions of other taxpayers' money.
What the amounts of money spent on this campaign show me is that there are interest groups willing to spend alot of time and resources to get momentum started for their cause. We will probably see this issue for years to come, in many forms.
The question I have is why there is so much circular logic around this issue? Many taxpayers say they don't like the fact that the tax system for education in Utah is not based on a head count, meaning that a 2 person family pays as much as an 8 person family who has the same value of property.
Well, didn't Utah just vote down one solution(not THE, as there are many solutions) to the problem of no head count? If these families sent their children to private school, they would still pay the same tax, plus pay part of their own way for the more expensive private ed. So, this was a way that we could get them to pay more for their kids education, rather than using larger portions of other taxpayers' money.
Anonymous | 11:07 a.m. Nov. 8, 2007
Just think.... the law was studied by the legislature, voted on, the governor
signed it.... It was all over and done with... no money wasted on any referendum
campaign.
So, who started this fight and caused all this money to be spent?
The people who started the referendum. The TEACHERS UNION.
So, who started this fight and caused all this money to be spent?
The people who started the referendum. The TEACHERS UNION.
Fight is FAR from over | 11:12 a.m. Nov. 8, 2007
Also, why do the education unions fight against vouchers in k-12, yet they seem
to support programs like FAFSA, which are tax-based grants and loans for higher
education -which can be used at both private and public universities?
The only reason I have been able to figure for this is that university professorships are not unionized jobs, so there is no one to protect. Has anyone thought about the amount of times any state legislature has cut funding to universities forcing them to cut faculty members? This does not happen very often in k-12 due to the unions.
Yet, in my belief, because of the variety of choices for schools as well as funding sources in the realm of higher ed, there are obvious discrepancies in the quality and level of education between the two systems, higher ed being the one with better quality, teachers, facilities, and graduates.
Honestly, think about it, how good would our universities be if they had to tow the line for district policy makers or a centralized education board like k-12 schools do?
The only reason I have been able to figure for this is that university professorships are not unionized jobs, so there is no one to protect. Has anyone thought about the amount of times any state legislature has cut funding to universities forcing them to cut faculty members? This does not happen very often in k-12 due to the unions.
Yet, in my belief, because of the variety of choices for schools as well as funding sources in the realm of higher ed, there are obvious discrepancies in the quality and level of education between the two systems, higher ed being the one with better quality, teachers, facilities, and graduates.
Honestly, think about it, how good would our universities be if they had to tow the line for district policy makers or a centralized education board like k-12 schools do?
go | 11:14 a.m. Nov. 8, 2007
Paying someone for their vote is exactly how our system works. Liberals and
their social programs use money taken from working people to buy votes from
people on the receiving end of these programs. Look at Hillary's $5000 per
child promise...she is buying votes.
Fight is FAR from over | 11:16 a.m. Nov. 8, 2007
Think if you were restricted to going to the university closest to your home,
and lastly, think if those student loans you are still paying off or those
federal pell grants were not available.
Would you have gone to college? Would your university have had the level of quality and education that it had? How would the professors have been? The facilities?
The FAFSA programs are great programs that help some of the most deserving people get through school at some of the nation's best colleges, and our higher ed system is better off because of what is comparitively a "Federal voucher system".
Would you have gone to college? Would your university have had the level of quality and education that it had? How would the professors have been? The facilities?
The FAFSA programs are great programs that help some of the most deserving people get through school at some of the nation's best colleges, and our higher ed system is better off because of what is comparitively a "Federal voucher system".
Anonymous | 11:18 a.m. Nov. 8, 2007
Money is spent on winning and losing sides of every election by candidates and
on behalf of propositions and referendums. It's called the democratic
process. To suggest that pro voucher money was wasted and anti-voucher money
was well spent is ridiculous and reflects the obvious bias of the authors and
the Deseret News.
You like your public schools? That might be the most alarming comment of all. Parents are searching for alternatives because Utah public schools are average at best.
Where will the money come from to increase salaries of teachers and how does simply increasing salaries guarantee a corresponding increase in the quality of education? It would require $1.6 billion to get to the national average of $8,468 per student. I could be wrong, but that sounds like a tax increase for citizens who would not even support a tax increase for much needed public safety facilities. Everyone seems to agree an increase in funding is needed but voting against school vouchers has only managed to maintain the status quo. Wait until it comes time to foot the bill for a meaningful upgrade. We will find out then how much you all really care about public education.
You like your public schools? That might be the most alarming comment of all. Parents are searching for alternatives because Utah public schools are average at best.
Where will the money come from to increase salaries of teachers and how does simply increasing salaries guarantee a corresponding increase in the quality of education? It would require $1.6 billion to get to the national average of $8,468 per student. I could be wrong, but that sounds like a tax increase for citizens who would not even support a tax increase for much needed public safety facilities. Everyone seems to agree an increase in funding is needed but voting against school vouchers has only managed to maintain the status quo. Wait until it comes time to foot the bill for a meaningful upgrade. We will find out then how much you all really care about public education.
JJWilson | 11:18 a.m. Nov. 8, 2007
Re-Holladay
You make it sound like $17 mil per day is a lot - it averages $29. per day per student based on 586,087 Utah public school students. If you want to know where the money is going visit your local school district offices and talk to the Business Administrator (that's the money person) that individual will show you where the money is going. It goes to salaries and benefits, pays utilities, textbooks, equipment, etc.
You make it sound like $17 mil per day is a lot - it averages $29. per day per student based on 586,087 Utah public school students. If you want to know where the money is going visit your local school district offices and talk to the Business Administrator (that's the money person) that individual will show you where the money is going. It goes to salaries and benefits, pays utilities, textbooks, equipment, etc.
Jason | 11:22 a.m. Nov. 8, 2007
I agree with grundle. You win some you lose some. However it is up to us as
parents to work with the teachers and our children to build a better teaching
environment. Please understand that the NEA and UEA along with politicians DO
NOT want to solve this issue. They need the issue because it gives them power
each election cycle. They must have it to survive. Teachers Unions have never
cared about the students or making education better. They want the money and the
issue so that they can preserve their power. Do not be fooled by them.
To Fight | 11:47 a.m. Nov. 8, 2007
In your "solution", you failed to take into account the income tax
(100% of which goes towards education). If you look at all education tax money,
these parents wouldn't pay the "same tax" since the parents would
get the 500-3000 income tax credit which reduces their tax burden.
Not only do two person families get property taxed the same as a six person family, they pay significantly less income taxes. Thus, the "head tax" is really on the backs of those with no heads to educate! We in Utah seriously need to look at deductions and child credits on our income tax laws. While I'm not a proponent of a direct head tax, I am totally against unlimited deductions in a culture that has the highest birth rate in the nation. And, I have 4 kids, all of them currently in the public education system.
Not only do two person families get property taxed the same as a six person family, they pay significantly less income taxes. Thus, the "head tax" is really on the backs of those with no heads to educate! We in Utah seriously need to look at deductions and child credits on our income tax laws. While I'm not a proponent of a direct head tax, I am totally against unlimited deductions in a culture that has the highest birth rate in the nation. And, I have 4 kids, all of them currently in the public education system.
David | 11:55 a.m. Nov. 8, 2007
We as Americans are so short sighted. As "great" as our education
system is in Utah, it is more a result of the strong family values then it is of
the education system itself. And even then we are still way behind when compared
with countries in Europe and Asia. The voucher program wouldn't have been
perfect but at least it would've been something, an attempt to change the
status quo. The public school system has failure built right into it because it
is focused on everyone watching there own backs instead of the kids. The higher
up the food chain you go, the truer this becomes. Throwing more money at the
problem will not fix the underlying issues. The only way to fix the underlying
issues is to change the structure. But because of the "watch my back"
mentality, that will never happen unless public schools are forced to compete.
They are going to fight kicking and screaming to make sure they don't have
to. The UEA and NEA does just that by unleashing misleading information on a
voting public that doesn't seem to want to take time to really understand
the issue.
Thank goodness for the union | 12:00 p.m. Nov. 8, 2007
Anonymous at 11:07 said the union started the fight.
Wrong they ended the fight.
The people that started it were the legislators that passed a bill that vast majority of the public sees as wrong.
They started it when they held back money from our school children.
Thanks goodness the union has enough organization to stand up to legislators that pass lousy bills.
They should be thanked.
Wrong they ended the fight.
The people that started it were the legislators that passed a bill that vast majority of the public sees as wrong.
They started it when they held back money from our school children.
Thanks goodness the union has enough organization to stand up to legislators that pass lousy bills.
They should be thanked.
YK | 12:00 p.m. Nov. 8, 2007
Let's face it. The Utah referendum was merely the next battle in a
nationwide attack by right-wing ideologists on public schools and the status quo
in an effort to privatize education. The dismantling of the public education
system in favor of privatized education is the ultimate goal of such groups as
Parents for Choice in Education (PCE) who veil their goals in euphemisms that on
the surface sound noble and good like "parental choice". These groups
are opportunists and really thought they had an opportunity to get their foot in
the door in very Republican Utah by appealing to the notion of privatization and
free market policies which are generally more readily embraced by Republicans.
The voucher issue is essentially a very conservative new-thinking policy being
foisted upon what they thought would be a receptive political environment (and
was in the Utah legislature).
But they did not take into consideration the fact that many hold public education as a dear, even sacred, institution that shouldn't be altered lightly. The reason it got even this far and passed into law is that the PCE and other organizations have been cultivating like-minded Republican candidates at the Republican caucus level.
But they did not take into consideration the fact that many hold public education as a dear, even sacred, institution that shouldn't be altered lightly. The reason it got even this far and passed into law is that the PCE and other organizations have been cultivating like-minded Republican candidates at the Republican caucus level.
Listen to the Majority | 12:18 p.m. Nov. 8, 2007
The people have spoken. Nobody was swayed by the advertising campaigns and I
doubt that anyone voted blindly on this issue. Simply put, vouchers are not
what the people of Utah want for our children's education.
It's rather unfortunate that the Utah majority had to force our legislature and governor into repealing the bill that they supposedly signed in our interest. It's obvious now that they were not representing their constituencies, but rather those of the lobbyists and private spenders. The bill was poorly drafted and unconstitutional. Public money simply can not be handed over to private institutions so carelessly.
Let's make the increased discussion and attention worthwhile and look at other ways in which we can improve one of the best education systems in the nation. Good things are happening, but we can keep improving.
It's rather unfortunate that the Utah majority had to force our legislature and governor into repealing the bill that they supposedly signed in our interest. It's obvious now that they were not representing their constituencies, but rather those of the lobbyists and private spenders. The bill was poorly drafted and unconstitutional. Public money simply can not be handed over to private institutions so carelessly.
Let's make the increased discussion and attention worthwhile and look at other ways in which we can improve one of the best education systems in the nation. Good things are happening, but we can keep improving.
Zacko | 12:29 p.m. Nov. 8, 2007
Re:Stephen in Tallahassee
I'm sure that people living in a state that argues about "chads" and "disenfranchised" voters would want someone else to decide the hard things for them. So you're welcome.
I'm proud to live in a state where we have the ability to think for ourselves and vote the way we believe. If this was not the case the measure would have won easily since the "whos-who" of supporters were all high ranking GOP members.
Utahns are usually accused of being in lock-step with the GOP aren't we?
But we weren't just sheep following the NEA/UEA shepard either.
Utahns have a higher than average literacy rate and we are very capable of reading the arguments for and against issues. Unfortunately for the whiners out there, the argument against vouchers was a better one.
The comments on these stories only continue the rhetoric of the pro-voucher argument. All emotion and no substance. The sky isn't falling.
Additionally, this vote is proof that Democracy is alive and well. The PEOPLE can change, or in this case undo, what our elected Representatives do.
I'm sure that people living in a state that argues about "chads" and "disenfranchised" voters would want someone else to decide the hard things for them. So you're welcome.
I'm proud to live in a state where we have the ability to think for ourselves and vote the way we believe. If this was not the case the measure would have won easily since the "whos-who" of supporters were all high ranking GOP members.
Utahns are usually accused of being in lock-step with the GOP aren't we?
But we weren't just sheep following the NEA/UEA shepard either.
Utahns have a higher than average literacy rate and we are very capable of reading the arguments for and against issues. Unfortunately for the whiners out there, the argument against vouchers was a better one.
The comments on these stories only continue the rhetoric of the pro-voucher argument. All emotion and no substance. The sky isn't falling.
Additionally, this vote is proof that Democracy is alive and well. The PEOPLE can change, or in this case undo, what our elected Representatives do.
Freedom | 12:57 p.m. Nov. 8, 2007
Anybody notice the similarities between Socialized medicine and socialized
schooling ...errr public schools..? Oh that's right the NEA who garnishes
wages from teachers (which is really tax payer money) in 20 of the 50 states--
as of 2003-- actually does support and promote socialized medicine. They also
promote and have tried to push through to educate students about Gender
sensitivity just like the Governator did so wonderfully in California.!
Shouldn't the money that was funded to the UEA by the NEA have gone to the
kids. That was tax payer money and I didn't say they could use my part for
marketing schemes. Welcome to Socialist America!!! Hillary Care here we come!
It's called Democracy | 2:09 p.m. Nov. 8, 2007
I did not know that the Union could vote.
I know they can spend money on ads (at least they didn't use the "Utahns are Morons with Oreos" ad), but their vote counts nothing.
If the bill had been in Utah's best interest all of the Union Money in the world would have not been able to stop it. (Didn't we say the pro-voucher crowd spent most of the money on the campaign?)
This is America. It is not only the Right, but the DUTY of Americans to point out unfairness and the exercise of poor judgement of the legislatures and governors. Thank you to the NEA and UEA for protecting us from our elected leaders.
The time for whining and blaming (sour grapes) is over.
BYU has a football game tonight.
I know they can spend money on ads (at least they didn't use the "Utahns are Morons with Oreos" ad), but their vote counts nothing.
If the bill had been in Utah's best interest all of the Union Money in the world would have not been able to stop it. (Didn't we say the pro-voucher crowd spent most of the money on the campaign?)
This is America. It is not only the Right, but the DUTY of Americans to point out unfairness and the exercise of poor judgement of the legislatures and governors. Thank you to the NEA and UEA for protecting us from our elected leaders.
The time for whining and blaming (sour grapes) is over.
BYU has a football game tonight.
Where's mine? | 3:13 p.m. Nov. 8, 2007
You know, what's missing from this whole debate is that with
"rights" comes "responsibility".
No wait, I get it. You have a right to a government sponsored handout - while the rest of us have a responsibility to fund it. Makes perfect sense - in an oreo sort of way.
No wait, I get it. You have a right to a government sponsored handout - while the rest of us have a responsibility to fund it. Makes perfect sense - in an oreo sort of way.
Mark | 3:27 p.m. Nov. 8, 2007
Vouchers were slapped down by 2-1. This is America. It's the land of
"may the best man (or idea) win." Vouchers were not a better idea
than the current system. Public schools have flaws, but vouchers had more. The
people have decided.
If you folks want to improve education, go back to the drawing board and come up with a better idea. Then we'll talk and vote again. But whining about the defeat of vouchers certainly doesn't help the kids.
If you folks want to improve education, go back to the drawing board and come up with a better idea. Then we'll talk and vote again. But whining about the defeat of vouchers certainly doesn't help the kids.
Interested Bystander | 3:29 p.m. Nov. 8, 2007
Anonymous wrote, "Parents are searching for alternatives because Utah
public schools are average at best." Isn't it interesting that we get
schools that are "average at best" considering the fact that our per
pupil spending and teacher salaries are so low? Seems to me we get a pretty good
bang for our educational buck in Utah.
Drastic | 4:02 p.m. Nov. 8, 2007
Let's see, we have approx. 400,000 students in Utah public schools.
8,000,000 divided by 400,000 equals $20 per student at $2 a lunch we could have
fed these students for 10 days. More nutrition than they would ever get in the
over crowded classroom. Wake up Utah, communism is against the predominant
religion. PTA and Public education is the least free institutions in our state.
Glad it failed | 4:17 p.m. Nov. 8, 2007
I find it interesting the divide on this issue. The people I would normally
support were on the other side. But, the big difference here is all of the
supporters would and probably do sent there children to private schools. I too
want the best education for my children; but the voucher would still not enable
me to send my children there.
Ed | 4:25 p.m. Nov. 8, 2007
As a public school teacher I am amazed at the comments as to how the UEA and the
NEA do not want to "lose their power" and allow for the "free
market" to come in and prove how much better it is. Public schools have to
take EVERY student, private schools don't. Special ed, gifted and
talented, behaviorally disordered, you name it...we WANT those kids because
those kids are the adults of America TOMORROW. People who favor vouchers
because they want their students to go to private schools: please....place them
there. In those private schools. Just don't ask for a change in the rules
because you want an additional tax break. It is the responsibility, as we have
shouldered this over the last 75 or so years...of ALL UTAHNS..and ALL
AMERICANS...to pay for the future of our society. The PRIMARY way we do this is
through the public education system. It is not perfect....it is a work in
progress. I have a few ideas as to how to improve it and that will be in a
future installment.
Ed continued | 4:31 p.m. Nov. 8, 2007
How do we improve education?
1. Insist that students attend school. Absenteeism rates are ridiculous, and then parents want to excuse absences that are sluffs because they don't want to hold their student to their responsibilities of attending school and working in classes.
2. Insist that teachers TEACH. Wow, coming from a teacher? Yes, and those teachers who do not teach should be worked with to improve their skills and if they do not, then they should be removed. The processes are in place in every district statewide and are used.
3. How do we make teachers accountable? That seems to be a topic of discussion. Unfortunately, I can be the best teacher in the world but over my 23 years of teaching I have found, unfortunately...that I can't get about 10-15% of my students to want to do ANYTHING. Is that my fault? No. Most private sector companies would probably have a similar percentage rate of non-productive students. The only problem for educators is that we can't kick those kids out of school. But we CAN continue to work with them..and we DO! That's the beauty of education. More to follow
1. Insist that students attend school. Absenteeism rates are ridiculous, and then parents want to excuse absences that are sluffs because they don't want to hold their student to their responsibilities of attending school and working in classes.
2. Insist that teachers TEACH. Wow, coming from a teacher? Yes, and those teachers who do not teach should be worked with to improve their skills and if they do not, then they should be removed. The processes are in place in every district statewide and are used.
3. How do we make teachers accountable? That seems to be a topic of discussion. Unfortunately, I can be the best teacher in the world but over my 23 years of teaching I have found, unfortunately...that I can't get about 10-15% of my students to want to do ANYTHING. Is that my fault? No. Most private sector companies would probably have a similar percentage rate of non-productive students. The only problem for educators is that we can't kick those kids out of school. But we CAN continue to work with them..and we DO! That's the beauty of education. More to follow
Ed continued 2 | 4:35 p.m. Nov. 8, 2007
For those who feel that all of this money spent in Utah for education goes to
waste, due to administrative overheads and athletics....Well, the people on the
eastside of the Salt Lake Valley just voted to split away from Jordan School
District. If the Court of Appeals in Denver doesn't throw out the election
results then those people have voted to create a WHOLE NEW BUREACRACY....a whole
NEW layer...now THAT is a waste. It would have been better to allow the
districts to increase the number of members of their school board to allow for
better representation but you have some people who just want POWER.
Finally, the voucher proponents will be back. Make no doubt about it. The next voucher bill will be much more simplified. They will take out the provision for parochial schools and will in all likelihood try to have it done on a trial basis, maybe in the Salt Lake Valley or in Utah County. But it will be back because Mr. Curtis, Mr. Bramble and Mr. Stephenson want to destroy education for the common man. These are men not to be trusted and should be voted out.
Finally, the voucher proponents will be back. Make no doubt about it. The next voucher bill will be much more simplified. They will take out the provision for parochial schools and will in all likelihood try to have it done on a trial basis, maybe in the Salt Lake Valley or in Utah County. But it will be back because Mr. Curtis, Mr. Bramble and Mr. Stephenson want to destroy education for the common man. These are men not to be trusted and should be voted out.
Boo Hoo Ed | 4:48 p.m. Nov. 8, 2007
There are good teachers and bad teachers - even Ed would have to admit that.
How do schools get rid of the bad teachers? Unfortunately teachers just have to hang on long enough to get tenur and they can coast the rest of your career. Almost all my kids are adults now. Two of them had Pat Rusk as a teacher and she was great. But if the UEA was truely concerned with the education of children as their primary goal then why don't the propose a no-holds-barred accountability program and clean up their own act instead of doing what poor Ed does and just make excuses. Maybe we would have more teachers like Pat. Let's hear the "more excuses to follow" Ed.
If you voted for vouchers you got sucked in by Ed and his gang. My guess is that 80% of the voters never even read the bill but just did what the UEA and NEA spent a fortune telling them. Sheep!
I read it - it was a good bill.
How do schools get rid of the bad teachers? Unfortunately teachers just have to hang on long enough to get tenur and they can coast the rest of your career. Almost all my kids are adults now. Two of them had Pat Rusk as a teacher and she was great. But if the UEA was truely concerned with the education of children as their primary goal then why don't the propose a no-holds-barred accountability program and clean up their own act instead of doing what poor Ed does and just make excuses. Maybe we would have more teachers like Pat. Let's hear the "more excuses to follow" Ed.
If you voted for vouchers you got sucked in by Ed and his gang. My guess is that 80% of the voters never even read the bill but just did what the UEA and NEA spent a fortune telling them. Sheep!
I read it - it was a good bill.
Drastic | 4:54 p.m. Nov. 8, 2007
I commend Ed on his willingness to share his opinion. However, I disagree with
the idea that attendance will enhance the education. There are many students who
miss few if any classes yet continue to learn little. Homework every night,
exposure to immoral behaviour in the halls and the idea planted that average is
good. It would be different if the public system wasn't overwhelmed with
sub-par teachers and administrators. Sorry Ed but the product you are producing
wouldn't stand a chance in the real world market place. We wonder why we
have the issue we do today in our society. Let's look at where they were
educated.
Buhler Supporter | 5:49 p.m. Nov. 8, 2007
Another thing that they didn't take into account is that Buhler and Becker
both had to buy 2 votes, one in the primary and then more in the General
election. So if you look at it that way Buhler didn't spend as much per
vote, and was certainly nowhere near the $250 Keith Christensen spent for every
one of his votes.
DougS | 5:48 p.m. Nov. 8, 2007
Sure, Ed. Bramble, Curtis, and Stephenson just sat around one day (no doubt in
an ornately paneled, dimly lit, smoke-filled room) and said "Ah HA!
Let's destroy education for the common man! Vouchers are just the
ticket--at least, until we can pass a bill requiring every public school student
and teacher to keep two pounds of nuclear waste in their pillowcases!"
'Cause, you know, it's impossible for any reasonable, rational people
to honestly disagree with your point of view--obviously, they just hate
children. Maybe they even eat them, roasted, for Christmas dinner.
bob | 6:46 p.m. Nov. 8, 2007
Sounds like poor losers. The issue is dead. It was wrong headed to begin with
and now its gone. Im sure the egos of the folks on the hill will make them bring
it up again in another form but I think the people are smart enough to know
hogwash when they see and smell it.
MAK in Minnesota | 8:11 p.m. Nov. 8, 2007
Thank you Utahns! In Minnesota, Charter schools are the big push to
'save' education - these are non-district, but publicly funded.
Interestingly, when when the US Dept of Education just this last year compared
Charter and other private schools to traditional public schools, they found no
achievement gap (the Rand Corp. hired by the State of California found similar
results on Charter schools vs. public district schools.) A recent University of
Illinois study showed little or no gap between parochial and public schools when
comparing math education. Those who argue that competition will raise
performance and lower costs will need to explain why, when public and private
colleges are competing for students, costs have risen far faster than inflation.
The NEA as the bogeyman argument from the other side is simply because they
really have no answer or plan themselves...my experience here is that they
usually are simply 'no taxes' types or want a break while putting
there kids through private school - the well being of the public school kids is
not really their concern.
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"The pro-voucher PICs spent approximately $4 million, in the end receiving just 190,000 or so votes. That's about $21 per vote."
Twenty-one dollars is a drop in the bucket compared to what each Utahn should be paying to upgrade public eduation. The $4 million was well spent!