Deseret News | Vouchers killed

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Vouchers killed

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The only sane person left | 11:35 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

Good luck Utah-- you have made your bed. I am so glad my kids are done with the Public School nonsense.

Spencer Anderson | 11:58 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

The debate at hand should be about the role of the family in the process of education rather than vouchers. Conscientious parents without an undergraduate degree can do a better job of educating their own children (with less money!) than public schools are currently doing. But parents are conditioned to believe that the State can do it better than them and that education is the State's domain. Parents need to wake up and educate their own children. Should all parents home-school their own children? No! Home-schooling on that scale would certainly be a disaster at this moment in history! Rather, whatever education strategy parents deem best for their children MUST include their own oversight and active participation. I believe this would help make school funding issues virtually irrelevant. I believe this would help cure "bad" test scores. The combined effort of students, parents, and schools (in that order!) can solve problems that money will never solve.

Have A Little Charity | 12:03 a.m. Nov. 8, 2007

I could not manage to read through all of the posts on this issue. For those I did read, I must say, I've never seen so many straw men being lined up (on both sides) and knocked down. To the voucher people: voting against vouchers does not mean someone is not educated. And to the anti-voucher people: let us be civil to those who were sorely disappointed. I voted against vouchers myself, not because I am against affordable private schools, but because I did not feel that the current plan did much to fix the system. I am concerned about the attitude of many people, especially the Legislature, who think that their agendas must trump the honest opinions of others, simply because they think they have the moral high ground. We would do well to heed Lincoln's counsel: with malice towards none, with charity for all...let us bind up the [state's] wounds...to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with [our neighbors].

Comments continue below

Denny | 5:23 a.m. Nov. 8, 2007

I scanned a lot of the comments but not all. It is clear that the majority of Utah voters feel that the current education system is doing a good job. From my perspective it's probably doing a 62% job (That's a "D"). In other words 62% of the kids are being educated to the satisfaction of parents, and 38% are not.

I have learned that "one size fits all" is not a good solution in this modern world, and by necessity our current system is this kind of solution. Those kids that don't fit in eventually opt out or are washed out of the system. That's very sad, but true.

I think we all agree that more money needs to be spent educating our children. We don't all agree what constitutes a good education. I personally do not agree with many of the funded programs in public education because I view them as ancillary. They're nice but not essential. On the other hand a time comes in a child's life when the educational program needs to diverge from the "main stream." Not every student is destined for college, or any other activity. The current system doesn't recognize that.

case studies | 7:12 a.m. Nov. 8, 2007

I'm glad vouchers lost. There are good examples of what happens when the free market gets its hands on education. Inner cities and certain states (Hawaii) (I've lived in both) have such poor public schools one's only choice is to send one's kids to private schools. But therein lies the rub. Most of the kids cannot get into the private schools, because slots are limited and they don't academically qualify (never mind the cost). I'm talking about smart kids here, not idiots who have no motivation. As the public schools continue to fail, funding again decreases and they hit a vicious cycle. It gets to the point where if you go to one of the public schools, you have a very low chance of ever finishing high school, let alone going to college and getting a job. This contributes to poverty in the area, which ultimately leads to higher crime rates, and finally, everybody is worse off. This is the whole reason the government has a vested interest in providing education for its citizens. If it did not, we would quickly decent to third-world status with rampant crime and instability and no innovation/growth. Public education is a good thing.

To: Mark | 8:48 a.m. Nov. 8, 2007

Want to know how vouchers can help your kids? Read the Cato Institute's briefing on Vermont's voucher program which has been successfully operating for over 100 years. Vermont is currently ranked #1 in the state for educational success.

Why wouldn't we want the same success for Utah and our kids??

Phill Wright | 9:15 a.m. Nov. 8, 2007

Utahanï¿½s who defeated the Parents Right to Choice in education with school vouchers can proudly line up behind their associates who also fought against freedom of choice. Your new friends and comrades include; Hillary Clinton, John Kerry, Al Gore, the Gay and Lesbian Alliance, three National Atheistsï¿½ Organizationsï¿½just to name a few.
Shame on your ignorance by not learning the facts of School Vouchers or even understanding the basic beliefs of our Republic which is founded on freedom of choice.
One last thing to think about; If the School Voucher program would give $5,500 for every child who leaves the public school system, thus reducing class size but leaving an additional $5,500 in the class donï¿½t you find it amazing that our public school teachers cannot do basic math? Less kids in the class but more money to spend on the smaller class sizes? What does this say about those teaching our children in public schools?
ï¿½Too Many Holes?ï¿½ the only holes are the ones in your head! A bunch of lemmings marching off the cliff together!

modern education | 9:16 a.m. Nov. 8, 2007

For those of you in the dark, let me explain the workings of modern education. In the modern classroom it is the teacher's responsibility to socialize your children. Children learn a lot about the environment, social tolerance, safe sex, and diversity acceptance. They keep journals of their feelings about the subjects they study. Then they come home with oodles of homework in Math, English, Reading, etc. and it is the parent's role to spend hours each evening teaching the academics. At parent-teacher conference, the teacher tells the parents that the child is not doing well, that the parents need to be more involved in helping the child. The parents go home feeling like failures and hire a tutor. They spend thousands to bring their child current. Then the school conducts a state test, the child does well on the test, and the school takes credit for a job well done.

And that, my friends, is the current definition of parental involvement and free public education.

You had a chance to change that, you blew it.

to The Equalizer | 9:41 a.m. Nov. 8, 2007

If you went to public school, your own education was paid for by the public. You are now equalizing the situation by paying for other's education, just as yours was paid for. In essence, you are repaying your debt and this has nothing to do with whether or not you have children.

Concerned Parent | 12:47 p.m. Nov. 8, 2007

As I read through some of these posts it is apparent that people were voting more with feeling than with logic. It is an emotional dilemma when we are speaking about our children. No one can deny we want them to be exceptional and get a great education. To those who voted against the voucher system thinking you would be paying for the "rich folks kids" to go to private school, I would have to say that you are seeing this backwards. Not only are the "rich" parents paying for their children to attend private school (non-tax funded) but are paying for your children to go to public school with their tax dollars. Wouldn't it then seem fair to say 'Thanks' "rich folks", for paying into a system they do not utilize, and perhaps if their income was not too high give them a credit in the form of a voucher? Also, yes the referendum was voted down 62 to 38 but that should still open up your eyes to the fact that thier is a problem. You don't honestly think that 38 percent of the voters just voted 'yes' for the heck of it.

Concerned Parent (Cont.) | 12:50 p.m. Nov. 8, 2007

That 38 percent has either witnessed, or been a part of the public school system and believe thier needs to be a change. My wife was a party to the
'slipped through the cracks' administration style when she was attending school. I don't want the same thing happening to my children, who are mind you, in public school. The best way I can say this is, More money will never increase accountability.
It will only induce complacency.

Kathleen F.Hurst | 3:04 p.m. Nov. 8, 2007

The "PARENTS" of Utah have spoken. A small body of politicials can not enforce what the majority of the people oppose.
Parents have chosen to support the Public School System, which supports: highly qualified teachers that are committed to student's learning and to help them reach their potential, accountablity for teachers and students, and a research based curriculm focused on the most current and best teaching methods. We are thankful Parents had a choice. Our children are our most treasured possessions.

??? | 3:59 p.m. Nov. 8, 2007

I think the referendum1 was never watched closly. I am a student at a junior high school and what worries me is that if we looked 5 years into the future the voucher would then take nearly all the public funding from our publis schools so the rich can go to a private school. The Intel CEO also calls Utah a failure at an I.Q. test, as they claim this was. Do we really want to support a person who calls us a failure? You decide.

Why? | 4:34 p.m. Nov. 8, 2007

I think that the scare tatic fear mongering worked. Why does everybody think that if the voucher system had gone through that there would be this MASS exodus of children from the public school system. Heck, I'd be willing to bet that at least 62% of families would keep thier children in public schools. Even then, private schools do not have to accept anyone, so even if 38% public school famalies managed to get a voucher that doesn't guarantee thier children a seat in a private school. So don't be fooled that thier would be this great reduction of funds to the public school system.

Frank | 5:39 p.m. Nov. 8, 2007

I can say one thing that has colored my vote has been the information provided. Those that I know of anti-voucher opinion have explained to me why vouchers are a bad idea. Those I know of the pro voucher opinion have used emotion, guilt trips and vagueness on me.

Not fully understanding the ins-and-outs of vouchers I still cant justify them with common sense. It seems to me if the public school is sinking like a leaky canoe, the answer isnt to pull a couple people here and there from the leaky canoes with a chunk of wood in hand and stick them all in the good private ones. In otherwords I dont see how less money is helping underfunded public schools and crowding is helping private schools excel due to their small student loads.

DONT KNOCK IT | 5:41 p.m. Nov. 8, 2007

Hey lay off the free hot dog day at RC Willey!

I voted for vouchers and I love Free Hot Dog Day!

Logic | 6:20 p.m. Nov. 8, 2007

Wow, the pro-voucher group has quickly turned into the whiner party.

Same logic as going in, nothing substantial, just whining.

"Concerned Parent": you don't think that 38% would have voyed yes just for the heck of it. Oh, and his wife "graduated" so public education is bad.

"Frank": Leaky Canoes.

"Phil Wright": We're now aligned with Hillary, Gore, Kerry, Gays...

Bottom line, the Oreos Logic will go down in history with the Twinkie Defense and OJ's "If the glove don't fit"...

I'll answer with the logic that you can understand, and hope at least "Concerned Parent" gets it.

"You honestly don't think 62% of Utahns voted "NO" just for the heck of it???"

...and my wife "slipped through" public education too, college at the University of Utah, and her Master's Program in California and has taught for 19 years for the honor of teaching your kids for $48,000 per year. (She's a teacher, that's what they do, so say something nice about her once in awhile in your post's or I won't let her work all day Saturday anymore... Like I could stop her.)

;-)

thanks | 7:42 p.m. Nov. 8, 2007

To; Don't knock it

I didn't really mean anything I said in my post. I was just trying to get a reaction. Your's was very funny. Now I can go to bed feeling important.

I voted for vouchers as well. I can see why people would vote against it. I think they're wrong, but I certainly don't think they are unintelligent.

Let's get over it everyone. Work harder to help your kids be it at home or school.

And never turn down a free hotdog!

interested 3rd party | 10:52 p.m. Nov. 8, 2007

Uh... with all that money spent on the campaign, you think they could have just put it into the education system instead?

Or at least create a scholarship for private schools?

Jeez...

Logictoo | 9:07 a.m. Nov. 9, 2007

Let me see if I understand this correctly, teachers are under paid over worked and not appreciated. The classrooms are too full. The students don't want to learn or attend class. The parents use the public system as a child care service. Too much homework. Though the education budget for Utah is one of its highest budget items it is still not enough. Test scores are down. Drop out is at an all time high. Does this sound like a successful project, experiment or program? In the real world when a product doesn't provide results I get a refund. If you disagree with this logic...remember I was public educated...and want a refund!

Wisc | 10:09 a.m. Nov. 9, 2007

I think that it's pretty ridiculous to argue that because your kids are grown, or because you never had children that you shouldn't have to pay taxes that fund schools. Duh, where do you think the money for social security comes from? How about medicare? It comes from taxpayers. The more educated the working population, the more money comes in for those types of government programs. Education is an investment in EVERYONE's future. If you are not willing to pay taxes to support education, you should also be willing to give up your government health and social security benefits.

Logictoo | 11:30 a.m. Nov. 9, 2007

When a product fails to do what it is expect we demand a refund...teachers are under paid, over worked, not appreciated. Test scores are at an all time low. Students have more homework than ever before. Parents are using the schools as day care. Absentism is at a high. Drop out rate is at an all time high. Not enough money, class sizes too big. My opinion is that if it isn't working move on to what does. If this doesn't make sense ...remember I am a graduate of the public school system as an honor roll student...it is time for a refund.

HD | 2:08 p.m. Nov. 9, 2007

I went to a public school and turned out just fine.

Could've done without the sex education and a few crummy teachers, though.

Mabel | 2:51 p.m. Nov. 9, 2007

Most studies show that the kind of people who vote like their local school just fine, in the same way people 'hate' Congress but their guy is ok. Those people don't want to vote for something they don't see themselves getting a direct benefit from. $500 won't make a difference in affording a private school for their kid. Probably less of a difference for a poor person. Also most people don't think poor kids 'deserve' a private school education, especially one at taxpayer expense.

That's why vouchers lost.

Class Sizes | 2:54 p.m. Nov. 9, 2007

What about class sizes in college? If 30 students per class is too many in our public system, how do we survive college with classes in excess of 100 students?

Speaking of college, my child will be graduating from one of these supposedly "failing" Utah public high schools with an Associates Degree. She will be starting her university studies with the equivalent of two years of college behind her which she received from the public high school she attends. Several of her classmates will be doing the same. None of them is in the "gifted" program. They are just hard working and have teachers and administrators who care. I don't see where our schools are failing.

To take a spin off of the well known JFK saying: Ask not what your public school can do for you. Ask what you can do for your public school.

The public system is what you make of it. We need to stop complaining about the public schools and, instead, get involved.

Per student spending | 3:17 p.m. Nov. 9, 2007

Since when was per student spending an accurate gauge of how effective a school is?

Typically, that would imply that we are able to do more with less which is normally considered to be a good thing. Hasn't anyone gone shopping on a budget and felt good when they returned from the store with more than normal? By suggesting that having the highest per student spending is a good thing is like coming back from the grocery store and bragging that you just spent $100 and all you bought was a pound of hamburger.

I'm extremely pleased we voted down vouchers and hope the issue is dead. Vouchers simply aren't the answer and never will be. But neither is recklessly throwing money into the system without accountability. If my spouse came home from the grocery store having just spent $100 on a pound of hamburger, after getting over the shock, we would sit down together to find out how we could get the most out of the grocery budget. We need to do the same with our schools. It's simple efficiency which, as far as I know, has always been considered a positive thing.

Patience | 11:26 a.m. Nov. 10, 2007

Vouchers failed. Time for everyone on both sides to put their funding and intellect into improving the public school system. Certainly the governor, Mr. Byrne, and others have the standing and intelligence to think of innovative ways to utilize tax funds to improve the system instead of wasting time and money on complaining. Put Utah on the map for innovation in building a high quality public school system without vouchers. Honor the public vote.

Anonymous | 12:08 p.m. Nov. 10, 2007

You can't compare 100 college students to 35 - 7th grade hormone enhanced kids. Totally different .

Anonymous | 12:11 p.m. Nov. 10, 2007

While I agree Byrne showed his true colors and they were ugly,

I believe he was simply saying you don't get 4 points for making it to the 2 yard line.

Interpreted, you have to make it to the goal line to get the points. You don't get partial credit for almost making it.

It really isn't that hard to understand. He wasn't saying you can score 4 points in football.

At any rate his comments are worthless.

He is leaving for South Carolina and i say good riddance.

More time and Resources! | 10:45 p.m. Nov. 11, 2007

For as long as I can remember teachers (and the union) have been fighting for better and more resources to help students learn and succeed. Our schools are not perfect and have a long way to go, however our schools get the best bang for the buck anywhere in the country. Research has shown time and time again that parental involvement and a good teacher make the largest difference in the success of a child in school. I keep hearing that those against vouchers have voted for the status quo. You want innovation in the public schools--then give the teachers what they have been begging for for years--pay teachers a lot more so that we can attract the best people, lower class size so that teachers can pay more attention to individual students, and give teachers more prep time so they focus their efforts on how to reach every student. Aren't these the reasons parents send their kids to private schools? You want to make a difference then invest in our current system and give teachers the time and resources to do the job that they are capable of doing.Legislators--listen to the people in the trenches.

PaulH | 11:19 p.m. Nov. 11, 2007

Knowing that Utah is 75% Mormon, I am opposed to vouchers because they entangle government with private schools, possibly damaging the quality of both public and private education. If parents want their kids educated in private religious schools, so be it, but let them deduct the tuition from their state or local taxes. This will eventually force government schools to get "with it" or go out of business, or the same for private schools. We shall see.

That said, if parents are so worried about public schools, GO TO A PRIVATE SCHOOL, ALREADY ! If you can afford private schools, you're already paying high taxes, so shut up please !

Justin | 7:03 a.m. Nov. 13, 2007

I am appalled that my fellow Utahns would vote against school vouchers. Nevertheless, anyone who voted against school vouchers has made their bed, so now they have to sleep in it. The next time your kid comes home from school telling you about the latest liberal "fact" that they were taught in school, just remember how you voted. The thing that galls me is how willing Utahns are to continue funding a failed education system. The vote is in, so now lets see what brilliant plan the UEA and the teachers unions have to fix the pathetic excuse of an public education system Utah has. If they can make it better than it was when I went through it, I will support their plans. Nevertheless, I won't be holding my breath waiting for a decent plan to fix Utah's failed public schools.

Class sizes | 1:38 p.m. Nov. 13, 2007

Anonymous | 12:08 p.m. Nov. 10, 2007

I agree 100%. We can't compare 100 college students to 35 hormone driven 7th graders. For that matter we can't compare 100 college students to a room full of wound up 2nd graders either.

I've been a substitute teacher in just about every grade, K-12. I've also been in classrooms as a parent volunteer. Although not a full time teacher with years of experience, I've seen enough to know that large classes can be a problem.

My point in my previous blog is that we need to think outside the box when it comes to class size. There is no universally ideal class size that fits every situation. What's best will vary based on factors such as the students ages, learning abilities, curriculum, etc. In some cases, smaller class sizes might be more appropriate yet, in others, we might be able to get by with larger classes.

Although I voted against vouchers, I also feel that the parents and teachers who voted for them want and deserve to be heard. I think parents, teachers and school boards need to work together to determine what class size is best for everyone.

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