Deseret News | Vouchers killed

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Vouchers killed

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Ed | 3:55 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

To Dr. "K" Silvester: you are a LEGEND in your own mind! With type of pedigree in your first blog, shoot I wanted to ask you to come work in my high school for a week with my students and see just how well YOU can do with them!

To Kirk (redux) | 3:54 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

Thank you for answering my question: "Is it true that the UEA rejected a proposal to pay math/science teachers more than other teachers?"

"Yes..."

Sounds like the UEA needs to recognize that math/science teachers are different than other teachers. If there is a shortage of math teachers, then we should pay the math teachers more than we pay other teachers. Math graduates have a different skill set than other teachers. The demand for math graduates is greater than history graduates so math teachers should make more money than history teachers. The only reason I can think the UEA would want to pay a history teacher and a math teacher the same is that the UEA assumes they are the same.

The UEA's failure to recognize the differences between a math teacher and a history teacher is one of the primary reasons there is shortage of math teachers in Utah.

If this is typical of the UEA, then I can understand people's frustration with the public education sytem.

To: NAACP is a Joke | 3:54 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

If you were paying attention, you would know that the NAACP was not behind vouchers. In fact, they were fighting against it, along side all the other do nothing organizations that exploit their members for personal and political gain. Congratulations to Utah for validating these institutions that are bringing this country to its knees.

Comments continue below

Bryan, Millcreek | 4:01 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

I am really, really sad that the voucher law didn't win the publics vote. I would have loved to see some students in my children's classes move on to other schools, and in the process reduce class size, AND leave behind an additional $4000.00 (or more) for my son or daughter to share with the remaining students. This was one of the few recent laws I felt really strongly about.

Junthor | 4:06 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

TO Mahershalalhashbaz:

You're ashamed because people have different opinions than you?How American of you.

To DES News:

Why would I care about what the CEO of overstock says?

I didn't vote for it because I was tired of the biased reporting and constant politicizing of the issue.

l | 4:15 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

Oh well, the election is over, vouchers are dead, for at least a couple years. Let's all get back to not caring about our children's education.

Perhaps in two years when the legislature picks this up again, and all the pro and con campaigning and lobbying returns we should require that all money given to campaign for or against a similar measure be matched dollar for dollar by those paying for ads into a fund to give teachers bonuses instead of lining the pockets of printing companies, radio and TV stations, and out of state telemarketers.

The Answer | 4:19 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

The real, actual, time-tested and proven solution to the education problem - nation-wide - is right here: Moms, stay home and teach your kids yourselves. Getting second and third jobs to pay for private school isn't the answer - leave the workforce and educate your own children. Vouchers, though I think they may have helped a bit, aren't THE answer - leave the workforce and educate your own children.

This is my kids last year in public education. I am putting things in order here at home so that I can educate them here at home. The idea that "public schools are still worth investing in" isn't always going to be true. The "system" is failing, and rapidly declining. The "system" isn't going to fix itself, the best parents can do is save their own children. My tax dollars will continue to drain into a broken system without my consent or direction - all I can do is save my own kids, and I'm going to do that. I urge all mothers to do the same. Either home school them or find a friend who will. Save your kids - the "system" certainly won't.

To Jonny Aird | 4:20 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

Why do "public schools have to put up with a lot of Bureaucratic crap that private schools don't"?

The public schools have the bureaucracy because they don't have to compete. The lack of competition makes public schools inefficient (efficiency defined as education for a child).

The argument that the public schools can't compete with private schools because they are burdened by regulations and other goverment mandates is false. It reminds of the infant industry argument I studied in my graduate-level economics course..

Google "Infant Industry"

The "Infant Industry argument" is responsible for corruption in many third world countries because it encourages business leaders to ask for favors from government rather than make their industries more efficient and competitive.

Forcing public schools to compete with private schools will "get rid of the political expediencies and the other stuff that gets in the way of teachers being able to do their job" because it will encourage public schools to become more efficient (efficiency defined as education for a child).

Rich | 4:32 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

Vouchers would have meant that the school districts would have had to divide their money up by fewer students. This could have meant raises for teachers and lower class sizes. It also would have created the opportunity to start many new private schools with low enough tuition that those receiving $2,500 vouchers could have afforded it with no extra tuition. More competition would have improved the quality of education in the public AND private schools. And more competition for the services of quality teachers would have meant more money for teachers. Oh, well. I still can't believe the teachers didn't want it. They were convinced it was an invasion of their bailiwick. They never were open-minded enough to see the long-term benefits.

John | 4:36 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

Did anyone read the Voter Information booklet? My wife and I both read it and based on that information and everything that we could find, and we tried to have an open mind and we still voted ï¿½ Against. The pointing fingers needs to go back to the good old boys on the hill plus the Governor. Garbage in, garbage out. I am sorry for those that were pro-vouchers; we had a poor issue to work with and sour grapes now do not help the issue.

Can I have a voucher for my 3 children that are in state colleges and universities?

UEA we hail thee | 4:37 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

The NEA and UEA are right!!! Parents in Utah aren't capable of making good decisions for their children. Thank goodness we put down this dangerous rebellion that could have disrupted our wonderfully effective and not top heavy system. Go unions! Go status quo! Happy are we!!

quality education | 4:42 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

Over 50% of the posts on this forum have spelling or grammatical mistakes. What more proof do we need? We have a great public education system here in Utah!

loralai | 4:46 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

Too funny. All the private school parents that believe their child is getting a "better" education. Read up, taking away economic factors the vast majority of private school students do no better then public schools. You have a choice. In Utah you are free to go to any school. You are free to homeschool. You are free to go to private school. You are free to go to a charter school. I have no idea where pro-voucher supporters got their slogan of a choice in education but it's laughable considering and especially in Utah where you have more choices then other states.

You deserve it | 4:51 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

My father was a public school educator for 28 years. Rather than finish 30, he chose early retirement due to a system crippled by political correctness, top heavy district offices augmented by the promotion of incompetency to high level posts, and the lack of support for teachers to even mildly discipline bad or disruptive behavior.

Congratulations Utah...enjoy more of the same.

Teachers: A / Pub Ed: C- | 4:52 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

Hurray for those supporting Utahs exceptional teachers. If one compares Utah's effective use of education dollars by ranking dollars spent per pupil and graduation rates, Utah leads the nation. Not as a result of bureaucracy but because of caring, dedicated teachers.

Where Utah public education fails is in addressing the needs of the truly gifted and the truly needy (academically, socially, and financially). As a middle class parent of children that cross the spectrum, I speak from experience.

While not perfect in its voted-on form, the voucher concept helps parents like me to move square pegs from round holes, improving the opportunity for all. While it is true that taxpayer dollars would move from public to private schools, this is money that we as citizens have already agreed to spend on educating the child. Its success would mirror that of public versus private higher education, where students have access to grants and loans equally.

The vote margin indicates the disparity we have in Utah between those who believe that giving choice to others limits their own and those who can cheer another on his way to success on a different path.

re:FUD: It's called democracy | 4:51 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

Like most sore losers all you can come up with is name-calling the people that disagree with you.

Consider this:

Maybe the people of Utah are smarter than you, and you were swayed by greed, uncertainty and doubt even when presented with facts to the contrary.

If "bucking the staus quo" made sense the people of Utah would have voted that way. You don't gamble on the future just to roll the dice when there are sure things out there.

Improving the educational system takes the moral courage to say no to name callers like you and Mr. Bryne.

I just wish you sore losers would realize you had a bad product and would quit bad-mouthing the voters of this state and the democratic system.

If you like the taste of mediocrity, whatever you do, don't be part of the solution.

"I know no safe depositary of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform their discretion by education." --

Thomas Jefferson to William C. Jarvis, 1820.

Doug | 4:55 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

YOUR SCHOOLS ARE TERRIBLE -DON'T YOU GET IT????
Utahans need to understand that their population is terribly undereducated. Having attending Utah public schools (I now live on the East Coast), I understand how terrible Utah's education options are.
Utahans always wonder why multinational companies won't move their operations to SLC -it's easy - you don't know enough. You're cheap and smart, but your education is terrible.
You just don't get it - striving for mediocrity should never be acceptable.

bob | 4:56 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

To all you sad parents. Quit asking for a handout and pay for your own kids. You had them, you get a deduction for them. Get out and pay for them yourselves. Get another job, cut down on the play time and pay your own way. Dont ask us to pay for your special interests.

To: John | 4:59 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

Yes, if your kids qualify, they can receive a "voucher" for college. It's called a Pell grant. And it is valid at PRIVATE colleges and universities as well. You should ask BYU how many of their students are on Pell grants. The answer might surprise you. WOW! Private, religious institutions receiving government funding?? Sounds evil to me.

Union Bashers | 5:00 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

I guess I don't understand this.

How many votes did the Union have?

How many votes did Mr. Bryne have?

So going in, Mr Bryne had a 1-0 advantage in votes?

How many millions did he spend?

Sounds more like letting the people speak.

To "bob" | 5:08 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

Give me back my tax dollars taken for education and I will do it on my own. And when it comes time for my children to protect, serve, or administer to you in your time of need, I'll remind them of who provided for their education as doctors, lawyers, police officers, soldiers . . .

Choice | 5:23 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

Yesterday, the public voted down the choice in education act. And today, parents still have a choice regarding where to send their children to school.

I guess the choice in education part of the pro-voucher argument was a lie after all.

Budgeting | 5:28 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

The pro-voucher crowd from around the country claim that taking a child out of a public school saves the public school system the amount of money it takes to educate that student. That is not true.

School expenses can be broken into fixed and variable costs. The variable costs associated with educating a student would indeed leave with the student. However, the fixed costs would remain with the school. The school districts still have to heat the school, pay the power bills, run the busses, pay the teachers and administrators, etc, even if you take a few kids out of each classroom.

If you want a true calcuation of cost savings, you can only include the variable cost savings. Fixed costs stay at the school, even if you take a few kids out. The pro-voucher crowd from around the country doesn't want to tell us in Utah that little fact.

To: Choice | 5:38 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

You're right. Many of us still have a choice. Personally, I could care less about the $500 my family would receive to help with a private education.

However, let's say you're the head of a low income family and your child's school simply isn't meeting her needs. Do you really have a choice? Now, if you have access to $3000 to send her to a school that better meets her needs and the total cost for that school is $4500, would you somehow try to make the sacrifice to pay the additional $1500?

For those with means, there is always a choice. For those without, we have failed them.

Silver Fox | 5:44 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

This has been a sad day for public and private education in Utah. Supposedly it is all over concern for the better education of Utah's children. My wife has taught elementary school in Utah for many years. She also taught in California. We have been very fortunate in the educational accomplishments of our children in both public and private systems. I don't know anyone who works harder on behalf of each individual child in her classroom. However, all of this wind shows a lot of disrespect for the dedicated private teacher as well as the dedicated public school teacher. I don't know that I've ever seen so many hidden agendas and distrust by the public at large.

hadenough | 5:44 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

I cannot believe all the name calling and mud slinging! I always thought I lived in a reasonably civilized area. Boy, guess I was wrong. Why were so many against vouchers? It had nothing to do with UEA. I've never been a fan UEA. However, I am an intelligent person, I searched, found and read the information I could get my hands on, and I made my own choice. I am sorry to hear I failed the "IQ" test, oh, wait, I HAVE taken a real IQ test. My score was a 144. Mr. Bryne, what is your score?

Dave of Midvale | 5:48 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

I spent grades K-8 in a multi-cultural public system in suburban Washington, DC on the Maryland side. My classmates were African Americans, Asians, Latinos, Europeans, Catholics, Jews, etc. We played together, we ate lunch together and we studied together.

I attended 9th grade in Fairfax, VA in a white upper class school. In our district was TC Williams HS, the school that was the subject of the movie "Remember the Titans." I was there shortly following the events portrayed in the movie. The racial division was still very evident. The atmosphere wasn't far from what the typical private school would provide.

Then I moved to rural Iowa where I finished high school among farmers in a graduating class of only 48 students. They weren't affluent but they were intelligent and hard working.

The students from each school were all uniquely different yet each contributes to society.

I value the public system for teaching more than just textbook education. I value it for making people better neighbors and citizens and providing educational opportunities for everyone. For those desiring to be above the status quo, go ahead, on your dime, but don't destroy the desires the rest have to appreciate all people.

Did I miss something | 6:13 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

Private schools are still open right? This bill didnï¿½t shut down private schools did it? I can still choose to send my kids to private school, right? I mean, I just wonï¿½t get tax dollars to pay for it, right? Am I missing something?

Wrong party | 6:39 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

All those bashing Mr. Byrne, he was quoted on KUTV as stating Gov. Huntsman asked him to fund the pro-voucher money. Go after Huntsman, let him be a one-termer.

AdjustableSpanner | 6:39 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

Choice, the thing is that $3000 won't get you into a decent private school for a year. You'd have to add another $6000-7000 to put your kid in a truly GOOD private school.

Anonymous | 6:55 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

Lol! I'm doing a news article!!! is that guy saying that im about to die?! I go to public school. T_T

Hoping for Utah | 7:04 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

I was hoping Utah could lead the way in reforming U.S. public schools. On an international scale, our school system as a whole does not match up with many other industrialized countries.
We'll soon find a way back to privatizing schools. People can always spend their own money better than the government. And for those that don't have the means to educate their kids, I believe the free market would present ways and ideas to educate everyone. Just look to Andre Agassi's school in Las Vegas. Underprivileged kids are receiving quality educations.
The public school system promotes mediocrity and indoctrinates our kids to believing in a society of entitlement and socialism.
Too bad Utah couldn't get it done this time. But how long will we subject our future to sub-par education systems that are contributing to a steady societal decline of dependance- on government, on beaurocratic programs, on foreign nations, etc..

Angry SLC Citizen | 7:08 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

People are forgetting that this bill would have helped the Pingree Autism School, schools for the Deaf and Blind, and Special Ed schools. But who cares about those schools right? School vouchers wouldn't have helped them at all, money gone to waste..right all 68% of you who voted against this bill. But wait until you need to send your child to one of these schools then you will regret your decision. I know that if I have an autisitic child that needs to go to the Pingree school, I will be sending the remainder amount to the public school system.

Outside Looking In | 7:13 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

I'm a product of Utah Schools, but currently living outside the state. I think it is a shame that vouchers lost. From conversations with my family, I understand people thought this was a rich v. poor person law, but as I understood it, nothing could be farther from the truth. Most people who voted against did not even know what the bill proposed or where the funding came from. They just blindly listen to Union Members who said that public education would suffer. Had the vouchers passed, I would have considered moving back to Utah. My public school experience was such a joke (missed half of my last term in one class, mostly ditching school, and still got an A-). Utah missed a wonderful opportunity to start a revolution in our kids educational future and allowing others to get better schooling (not just the rich), in turn forcing the public schools to get better. But maybe in the future? I think it is pretty dissappointing.

Ted Lang | 7:28 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

As a Michigan resident, I sympathize that the mob won out in Utah as it did here in 2000. Our voucher proposal was targeted to only those schools with a 2/3 dropout rate, and it still was soundly defeated!

To Angry SLC Citizen | 7:40 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

All is not lost- a child with autism can benefit from the Carson Smith Scholarship.

A new day in Education | 7:50 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

Went to Gov. Jon's Website to see what was his stance on education.

Let's see...

"With so much at stake for our children, Utah can count on the Huntsman/Herbert Administration for a new day in education. (DIDN'T MAKE THAT ONE) It will be a day where teachers feel satisfied and appreciated (MISSED THAT ONE), parents will feel empowered and involved (NEVER SAW THAT ONE COMING), and more of Utah's children will be prepared to reach their full potential (WHOOPS ON THAT ONE TOO)."

Well, at least we know where he stands and he will fight hard to see that he keeps these promises.

The Equalizer | 7:52 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

Janet Trepanier | 9:13 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
.....The truth is that those of us who choose to send our kids to private schools have to pay their tuition and are also paying taxes for the public schools. The voucher system would have been a way of equalizing this burden for parents of private school students.

OH YES! I agree, equalize the burden. I have no children. Get your taxes off my back! Honestly, head tax. Pay for your children's education be it public or private. Take responsibility for little money in schools because of oversized families. Stand up and say, we need to pay our share, and get that burden off me and others like me that are paying to educate your children.

Mark | 7:56 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

I live in central Utah. Someone explain to me how vouchers could help my kids. Good luck!

keep govt out! | 8:06 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

I am a conservative who believes government should limit its influence in society. That is exactly why I oppose vouchers. The government should not get involved in paying tuition at PRIVATE schools any more than the government should be supporting religion based welfares. The problem with the current Republican party is it will support any government funding that supports its positions but claim govt spending needs to decrease whenever it is the Democrat's agenda. We can't have our cake and eat it too.

We as a nation believe that certain things should be funded by the government: military, roads, police/fire departments, education, etc. Of these, education is the one having problems. Why? Funding. If you look at the best public schools across the country, they all have the highest levels of funding per student with higher teacher salaries. I don't like the teachers union and unions in general, but I don't believe most of the problems with the education system are the union's fault these days. Education spending is always one of the first to go in difficult times. That is why our education is on the decline (that and lack of parental involvement).

Susan | 8:19 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

It is your chocie to have 5-6 kids you pay for them if you want them to go to private schools. The schools are just fine here in Utah, my kids all graduated and went to universities and all have excellent jobs. Quit blaming the system, take care of your kids.

Hillary 2008 | 8:41 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

Looks like people in Utah actually saw beyond the President Bush blindfold

Amazed | 8:50 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

IQ 162, can read legislation and make out the words, voted against vouchers. Almost got Byrned.

support for utah teachers | 9:33 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

Give me a break! All this going on about Utah schools being failures is comical. Utah kids regularly test higher than most high school kids across the country. That result in a state that has the least funding per student is phenomenal. It says a lot for our students, teachers and parents. I don't think that the voucher bill was ever meant to change every child's life in Utah. The majority are doing great and going on to be successful college students and contributing adults.

All Students | 9:38 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

Don't all students deserve smaller classes that people describe in these posts provided by private school? Don't all children to deserve to be educated with other students and families that support their education? Parent involvement should be required. If your child has trouble in school, deal with it, don't tell me no one cares. I know better. I see hard working teachers everyday working, cajoling even, just to get parents involved, at meetings, and working to improve shools. At our shcool we had a meeting dealing with how to help your child succeed at school and keep them safe at home. In attendance were 5 teachers, a principal, and several members of the PTA. People who live in glass houses need to stop throwing voucher stones. It's unproductive. If you want your child get get a religious upbringing take them to church, get behind their education and understand that teachers are not your enemy. They just may be the one person, outside of the family, that can influence them to be better citizens.

Me | 9:50 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

If your kids don't want to learn in a public school, they won't want to learn in a private school. The problem's in our homes, not in the schools.

One more thing | 9:56 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

I don't know if the posters are from out of state but it's bugging me. Those of us who live in Utah are not Utahans, were UTAHNS. Provoucher people, many from out of state, should at least understand that about us.
Well, okay, one more thing...why are all you provoucher sourgrape posters, not "worried for yourself" because you'd only get $500, and pretend you're worried about the "less fortunate?" In addition to tuition costs, private schools include fees, uniforms, and materials that will not be able to paid for if these families choose to feed their children. That doesn't even address transportation costs. And for those of you who think vouchers are needed for special needs students... My experience with a private "Catholic" school first grade student, was that when he began struggling, was sent to the public school for evaluation because the school did not have the resources, was diagnosed with a Reading Disability, and then kicked out of his school. After 20 years as a teacher I KNOW better than most of you posters that public schools have problems, but at least we're willing to work hard to teach all students, no matter their ability.

Blah Blah Blah | 10:20 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

I think we have a lot of cry babies in Utah. You lost. Go home cry it over for a couple of hours wipe your tears away and move on.
Last time I checked nobody claimed that the public schools are perfect. I just like 68% of the people out there don't want vouchers. I grew up in the public school system. I turned out just fine. I am sure I am not the only person out there. If or when one of my children need extra help I will step in and help them.
Lastly if this voucher was so great wouldn't it replace public schools because everybody would send their child to private schools?

JB | 10:35 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

Who does Patrick Byrne think he is? Who died and made him the authority on what is and is not quality education in Utah? Obviously he would love to see the demise of public schools in Utah. Maybe he thinks his wealth gives him some type of crdibility in the education debate. Thik again Patrick. And what is this business about this referendum being an I Q test for Utah. What is he trying to say? Could it be that those who voted against this proposal are stupid? This type of holier than thou attitude is one of the reasons I voted against this propsition. Oh, and I for one will not be buying anything from the big O and I don't mean tires.

Reality check | 10:39 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007

I've read several claims as to poster's individual IQ scores. Get real! Don't lie about your scores. 144, 162. I'm sorry I don't believe it. Very difficult to score that high. Let's be honest.
Plus, no truly intelligent person would have voted against vouchers. The anti-voucher crowd enjoys all-star wrestling, free hot-dog day at RC Willey's, and read People magazine for their news.

Since vouchers have now been voted down, I suggest we do what other states have done and implement a tax on the poor and uneducated. By that, I mean a state lottery.

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