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Vouchers killed
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Curmudgon | 10:10 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
I hope this outcome isn't a suprise to anyone here.
Polls have shown from the begining that the majority didn't support vouchers. To think that by some miracle the tide would turn on the day of the election (dispite the barage of advertising) is not very rational.
I just hope that those who vilified the public-schools during the debate will follow through on their noble intentions and remove their kids from those "evil" public schools. If they don't, you have to wonder how much of their talk was just rhetoric and how much value they really place on their kids and their education. If not getting the $500-3000 check means you will now leave your kids in the evil public schools, I have to wonder about your commitment and sincerity.
I'm not one who believes the "Higher funding = better education" philosophy. However, If this is true and enough of these, "Public schools are good enough for some, but not for my kids", people will leave, the public school system should be better off, and the kids who left will be better off (because they got out of the evil public eduation system). It's a win-win situation!
Polls have shown from the begining that the majority didn't support vouchers. To think that by some miracle the tide would turn on the day of the election (dispite the barage of advertising) is not very rational.
I just hope that those who vilified the public-schools during the debate will follow through on their noble intentions and remove their kids from those "evil" public schools. If they don't, you have to wonder how much of their talk was just rhetoric and how much value they really place on their kids and their education. If not getting the $500-3000 check means you will now leave your kids in the evil public schools, I have to wonder about your commitment and sincerity.
I'm not one who believes the "Higher funding = better education" philosophy. However, If this is true and enough of these, "Public schools are good enough for some, but not for my kids", people will leave, the public school system should be better off, and the kids who left will be better off (because they got out of the evil public eduation system). It's a win-win situation!
Anonymous | 10:11 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Remember the Deseret News headline: "Stadium Deal Dead"? When you
drive past the new Real soccer construction site in Sandy, how "Dead"
does it look to you?
Vouchers have not been "killed." They will rise again, because this is what Huntsman and Utah lawmakers do. They find a way around what the majority want. Vouchers will be back, probably sooner than you think and regardless of the ridiculous and pointless fight put up against it. The UEA just wasted millions of dollars that could have gone to your child's education fighting something that is inevitable. Good job UEA. Good job.
Vouchers have not been "killed." They will rise again, because this is what Huntsman and Utah lawmakers do. They find a way around what the majority want. Vouchers will be back, probably sooner than you think and regardless of the ridiculous and pointless fight put up against it. The UEA just wasted millions of dollars that could have gone to your child's education fighting something that is inevitable. Good job UEA. Good job.
Comments continue below
Dave of Midvale | 10:13 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Thank you, Jeanetta Williams and the NAACP for your stance against Referendum 1!
Your voice made a huge difference and played an essential part in defeating
this controversial referendum. I don't think we would have been nearly as
successful without your voice.
Your presence here in Utah is welcome and very necessary to help maintain racial integration in our society. I can't thank you enough.
Your presence here in Utah is welcome and very necessary to help maintain racial integration in our society. I can't thank you enough.
Mrhackman | 10:13 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
No more Overstock.com for me. Could anyone be more arrogant than Bryne?
Spanish Fork | 10:20 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Wow!! What a bunch of sore losers. Blame the teachers, blame the teacher
unions, blame the PTA, and even the "uninformed" voters. The voters
seem more informed that they are given credit for. Perhaps now the legislature
will be able to give up on this elite, special interest entitlement.
My issue | 10:20 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
We are forced to pay for a school system is must adhere to a set of standards
that are established by "progressives" or socialist leaning advocates.
This is not an attack against the good teachers we have - it is the system. In
this system there is no room for opposing theories or ideas. It is their way
and other ways are labeled as closed minded, bigotted or hateful. There is no
room for serious talk about the impact of Christian values on society, or a deep
study of the Constitution, the meaning of limited government, the struggle for
independence, the meaning of the American Dream.
A Maine school wants to hand out the pill to 13 year olds and telling them that they will keep it secret. In California, the Governor is trying to make it manditory to teach about Gay heros and that there is no difference between man and wife, man and man, or wife and wife.
This is the system that continues to grow more bold in their "liberalization" (meaning de-Christianizing and socializing) of our children. Do you think it is going to stop?
Let's just keep paying to liberalize our children....
A Maine school wants to hand out the pill to 13 year olds and telling them that they will keep it secret. In California, the Governor is trying to make it manditory to teach about Gay heros and that there is no difference between man and wife, man and man, or wife and wife.
This is the system that continues to grow more bold in their "liberalization" (meaning de-Christianizing and socializing) of our children. Do you think it is going to stop?
Let's just keep paying to liberalize our children....
Honesty | 10:30 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
This issue is about whether or not we want our tax dollars to subsidize private
school tuition- generally for children of the rich and middle class. Good job,
Utah, saying no to that.
The arguements of the pro-voucher folks come across as nothing more than a confusion tactic to redirect the discussion away from what this is all about- the rich and middle class making a cash grab to pay for a portion of the private school tuition for their children. This voucher bill would not have held public schools harmless. That is a lie. This voucher bill would not provide choice in education. That is a lie. The voucher bill may have received more support if the people pushing it had been honest by stating that they feel public tax dollars should be used to pay for the private school tuition of their children. I am extremely happy the voters of the state saw through these lies.
Dear Patrick Byrne- Voting against vouchers does not mean we don't care about children. That is silly. You are reaching, brother. It means that we feel state tax dollars should not pay for your children's private school tuition. This is all.
The arguements of the pro-voucher folks come across as nothing more than a confusion tactic to redirect the discussion away from what this is all about- the rich and middle class making a cash grab to pay for a portion of the private school tuition for their children. This voucher bill would not have held public schools harmless. That is a lie. This voucher bill would not provide choice in education. That is a lie. The voucher bill may have received more support if the people pushing it had been honest by stating that they feel public tax dollars should be used to pay for the private school tuition of their children. I am extremely happy the voters of the state saw through these lies.
Dear Patrick Byrne- Voting against vouchers does not mean we don't care about children. That is silly. You are reaching, brother. It means that we feel state tax dollars should not pay for your children's private school tuition. This is all.
steve | 10:29 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Byme is clearly a bad loser and knows nothing about the people of Utah and how
we feel adout our chrildren. But we do need to thank him for putting all that
money in to the state's economy.
Mary Ellen | 10:32 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
>
And I should CARE how he feels about me? Mmmmm....nope.
And I should CARE how he feels about me? Mmmmm....nope.
no more phone calls | 10:32 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Does this mean I will stop getting pro voucher phone calls? I got three
yesterday alone. The caller ID said they were from Phoenix.
Interesting....
Does Overstock have an office there?
Interesting....
Does Overstock have an office there?
Jared | 10:32 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
If the School Unions really care about our children, they would have supported
Vouchers. Not everyone fits in Public Schools. Public Schools are not the
answer for everyone!
Chad | 10:34 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Belittling for disagreeing? said:
"Or even knew that it wasn't HB 148 that would have been implemented with a yes vote, but HB 174?"
Don't know if this was addressed yet, but that isn't true. I'm looking at a copy of the official ballot from SL County for my particular precinct (which I printed from the county clerk's website), and it says "Are you for or against HB 148 taking effect?"
But I guess it's all a moot point now.
"Or even knew that it wasn't HB 148 that would have been implemented with a yes vote, but HB 174?"
Don't know if this was addressed yet, but that isn't true. I'm looking at a copy of the official ballot from SL County for my particular precinct (which I printed from the county clerk's website), and it says "Are you for or against HB 148 taking effect?"
But I guess it's all a moot point now.
Vouchers GOOD, Ref 1 BAD | 10:35 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
This ref needed to be defeated and I am pro voucher! This was not a choice
between vouchers or not, this was choice between passing or not passing a poorly
written bill by our legislature. With ties close to the UEA, I can honestly say
teachers do not tow the union line without thinking. If you understand the
bill, people would be able to take money from the public system to fund their
choice of private education, a good idea. The problem arises when said
individual uses the money for private education only to find that the private
school could not provide the quality they want. For this reason, they decide
the public ed was better than the private they chose, so they move back to
public education. Now we have more kids in public ed with less money, it is
that simple.
The Leg needs to give us the choice of the education we want for our kids, but then we need to be held accountable if we make a decision that ultimatley was not in our childs best interest. Both sides could get what they want in this scenario, but this might just make too much sense!
The Leg needs to give us the choice of the education we want for our kids, but then we need to be held accountable if we make a decision that ultimatley was not in our childs best interest. Both sides could get what they want in this scenario, but this might just make too much sense!
Do Something | 10:38 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
From everything I've read, Vouchers in other states really didn't make
the impact we have made them out to be but have always sent a message. I am the
result of a failing public school system. Yes, it's great that the
"rich" won't get a break, but neither did I when I wasn't
getting the education for the money being put out. The falling test scores of
public schools in Utah and the superior education private schools give would
hopefully give people an idea that there is something wrong. Putting aside
money, education in Utah is horrible and something MUST be done. My younger
siblings have received a much better education in charter schools and are equal
to my education as a freshman in college. If you don�t
support vouchers, find something else that will work.
mel | 10:46 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Very disappointed in the posts today - especially from the pro-voucher crowd.
Putting people down simply because they didn't like what was offered
yesterday is a poor way to deal with people. Everyone had a choice - that is
what our freedom's allow us. It is just wrong to judge people because they
don't agree with you. Perhaps something can be worked out in the future
that more people can agree with, but to have such harsh judgement against a
person's choice is not going to get anyone anywhere, it is just going to
enrage people more.
C Lawrence | 10:48 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
It seems that the pro voucher crowd either through misrepresentation or faulty
assumptions believe that private schools/teachers are without exception superior
to public schools for all students. I have had my children in a private school,
in a charter school, and in public schools. I will say without hesitation that
the overall best experiences, and best teachers, staff, and administration have
been in the public schools. In general, they have been much more flexible and
willing to work with our children's special needs, and offer far more
services, than either the private school or the charter school.
Two of my children, who have special needs, were able to get publicly funded scholarships to attend a private school. The private school was very willing to accept the public money; however, within one week, had expelled one of my children from their school. They said they didn't want "her kind of influence" in their school. (She happens to be of a different racial heritage than the majority, so we weren't exactly sure how to take that statement.) The other child with special needs was expected to perform exactly like the other students in his class; needless to say, he didn't succeed either.
Two of my children, who have special needs, were able to get publicly funded scholarships to attend a private school. The private school was very willing to accept the public money; however, within one week, had expelled one of my children from their school. They said they didn't want "her kind of influence" in their school. (She happens to be of a different racial heritage than the majority, so we weren't exactly sure how to take that statement.) The other child with special needs was expected to perform exactly like the other students in his class; needless to say, he didn't succeed either.
Parker | 10:47 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Educating children in the community through a public school system is not
"education welfare", it is an investment in the future of our
community. This is the truth whether you have children or not.
Privatizing everything is not always the answer, especially when it is dealing with fundamentals such as education and healthcare which should be the right of all children of any economic class. If you can afford it, there will always be privately-offered alternatives, and no one will stop you from using them.
Privatizing everything is not always the answer, especially when it is dealing with fundamentals such as education and healthcare which should be the right of all children of any economic class. If you can afford it, there will always be privately-offered alternatives, and no one will stop you from using them.
what a shame | 10:50 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
What a shame this law did not pass.
Charles (the first one) | 10:51 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
HUZZAH Kirk. I think THAT is the main reason why it lost, and everyone who voted
against it knew it. Enough with these straw man arguments about communist
teacher's unions, Utahns being happy with mediocrity, creeping socialism,
etc.
We rank and file citizens of this state are good and intelligent people.
We rank and file citizens of this state are good and intelligent people.
CB | 10:51 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Interesting how vouchers threaten so many peoples "taxes'. "I
don't want them to use 'my taxes'", all these parents were
asking for was 'some' of their 'own' taxes back to pay for
their child's education in a private school. They are not presently using
the public school facilities, which certainly lessens the cost to the public
schools. Seem to me they should be the ones complaining about you using
'their taxes' to educate your child. In this case the
'winners' were the real losers, and we all know how that ends.
re: Nate and others | 10:53 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Im educated (J.D. from Harvard, B.A. from BYU), a republican and voted against
vouchers. Face it, the voucher plan was a joke.
Ron S. | 10:53 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
The biggest losers are those who can't afford to get out of the public
school system, but know they want to give their children more. We are fortunate
to be able to send our kids to a private school, I am saddened most cannot. My
2nd grader scored at a 10th grade level in science and math in his last SATs,
compared to his public school counterparts. My son is just an average student at
his school, his test results just show he is better educated, with a better
student to teacher ratio. It is a simple equation.
While the voucher system would have done little for us as a family, it would have been so nice to see others given the opportunity to provide a better education for their kids. Selfishly, this will make it easier for my kids to get academic scholarships to the universities of their choice. Test scores prove the publicly educated kids have far less of a chance to excel academically. In short, we all lost in this one, whether or not we are intelligent enough to understand why.
While the voucher system would have done little for us as a family, it would have been so nice to see others given the opportunity to provide a better education for their kids. Selfishly, this will make it easier for my kids to get academic scholarships to the universities of their choice. Test scores prove the publicly educated kids have far less of a chance to excel academically. In short, we all lost in this one, whether or not we are intelligent enough to understand why.
voucher bill thats fair | 10:53 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Vouchers are to be for the students that are failing in a public school setting
and for the poor. If a student is failing and/or has less that a 2.0gpa and
their parents are under the state medial income level, then give the kid a
voucher. Of course, I don't know how many private schools would accept
these kids but those that do go for it.
Wow in California | 10:56 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
It is too bad the Deseret News is censoring comments that questions how the LDS
religion factored in this outcome.
grundle | 10:58 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Back to the Same old...Same old...
J. Smith | 10:59 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Part of what we, as citizens and a community, should be concerned about is the
good of the community. Thank goodness the teachers union and PTA recognize
this. The voucher bill had too many flaws, and would not have improved public
schools. The first order of business should be to take a comprehensive look at
education as a whole. We need to find out what the deficiencies and what are
the strengths.
The next step then would be to revise the current educational structure and make correct modifications where we need to. Only then can we truly begin to make strides and improvements in education.
Those who claim that public schools are terrible and Private schools are superior to public schools are wrong in their assumption. I went to public school and I am greatful for the many great teachers I had. I have since realized the 2 classes I struggled in had more to do with my attitude then the Teachers. I have gone on to get a Master of Science degree, in large part due to the influence of my fantastic teachers.
The next step then would be to revise the current educational structure and make correct modifications where we need to. Only then can we truly begin to make strides and improvements in education.
Those who claim that public schools are terrible and Private schools are superior to public schools are wrong in their assumption. I went to public school and I am greatful for the many great teachers I had. I have since realized the 2 classes I struggled in had more to do with my attitude then the Teachers. I have gone on to get a Master of Science degree, in large part due to the influence of my fantastic teachers.
John | 11:00 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
I voted against welfare for the rich and glad others felt the same. It done and
over. To bad the money spent on the nonsense was not used for kids
Reply to Blucoug | 11:02 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
They already have choice in Utah, you can send your kid to any school in or out
of the district, or choose one of hundreds of private schools. We didn't
vote against choice, we voted against letting them use our tax money to send
kids to private schools.
Jay - Edukated in Utah | 11:05 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
As a purson who wuz edukated in the publeec skool systum hir in Utah, I think
the teachers are doin a rilly gud job and shoold be commented for all the effert
they put inta ther studentzz. I know sum teachers wurk harder thun others and
it isant fare to them that evryone hasn't took advantage of what
they've taugt. Fur me, I'll just keep on diggin ditches and workin at
the call center so I can afford to help my kids with ther skool costs and maybee
whin they git old thay wont have a bad back and be lade up. I think them rich
kids who can go to privat skool shoold take advantage of it becuz ther lives
seem to be more plesant and folfilling with jobs wher they don't get so
burned out and tired. I am happy if thay can afford them privat skools, but I
don't want to be the one payin for it from my paycheck taxes. Best of Luck
to the Utah politisians who we eleckted, this is a tuff issue fer them but Im
sur thayll figur it out!
Al | 11:06 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Has anyone noticed that those counties with the highest pecent of wealthy
citizens (i.e. Washington, Utah) also had the highest percent vote for vouchers.
Who was this voucher really aimed at? So much for the lie that this was all
about helping the poor.
M Leigh | 11:12 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
I was educated in a Utah public school, and thanks to some excellent teachers
received a good education. But, as I have seen better systems, I have realized
that much better systems are out there.
I am currently a grad student in Tucson, and my wife has been a grad student and stay-home mom. We have largely survived on a grad student stipend, and could not afford private school for our children. Whatever problems with the education system you have in Utah, Tucson public schools are easily ten times worse.
However, we have charter schools. My Children attend national class schools - Basis Tucson and Tucson Community School. Check out their reviews on greatschools.net to see what I mean. It blows away any educational system I had in Utah.
One more story to illustrate. we are friends with a math teacher at Basis that survived the Chinese cultural revolution, has degrees in Math and Physics, and is an incredible teacher. But, she couldn't teach at a public school due to certification issues, even though she is more knowledgeable and a better teacher then any state official that would certify her. Serve the kids, not the system.
I am currently a grad student in Tucson, and my wife has been a grad student and stay-home mom. We have largely survived on a grad student stipend, and could not afford private school for our children. Whatever problems with the education system you have in Utah, Tucson public schools are easily ten times worse.
However, we have charter schools. My Children attend national class schools - Basis Tucson and Tucson Community School. Check out their reviews on greatschools.net to see what I mean. It blows away any educational system I had in Utah.
One more story to illustrate. we are friends with a math teacher at Basis that survived the Chinese cultural revolution, has degrees in Math and Physics, and is an incredible teacher. But, she couldn't teach at a public school due to certification issues, even though she is more knowledgeable and a better teacher then any state official that would certify her. Serve the kids, not the system.
confused | 11:12 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
reading through all these blogs i am wondering what issue is being argued: is it
that private education is better than public education? is it union vs
democracy? what is it? people are slamming public education like it has no
benefits. if it is about choosing to send your child to a private school based
on numbers, that is fine. but if your saying the education is bad...who says the
the private schools will offer a better education? maybe there will be a bad
teacher a child will encounter there. stick to the argument at hand. now you
know why vouchers did not pass.....too confusing on what inference was being
made.
The big picture | 11:13 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
"$430 million will be taken out of the public schools if the voucher Ref.
passes" ???? The UEA forgot to mention that if those kids stayed in the
public schools, it would cost tax payers close to $1.2BILLION to educate them.
Wow! that's a $800 million dollar savings to us! Thank you for voting
against vouchers! Not only did you give the UEA more power,but we will be paying
more money for the same broken school system that will for sure get worse!
On a moral issue(which I believe this was) look at who supported both sides. I can't believe Utah, of all places, voted in favor with the ACLU, Athiest groups, Hillary clinton, NAACP,Planned parenthood, and the Rainbow coalition(just to name a few). I'm actually frighten that more people didn't see the BIG PICTURE.
On a moral issue(which I believe this was) look at who supported both sides. I can't believe Utah, of all places, voted in favor with the ACLU, Athiest groups, Hillary clinton, NAACP,Planned parenthood, and the Rainbow coalition(just to name a few). I'm actually frighten that more people didn't see the BIG PICTURE.
What a Shame! | 11:14 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
I can't believe that Utah residents gave in to fear tactics and lies from
the against vouchers campaign. Coumminist schools continue and my kids will get
the same horrible schooling I received. Good work Utah!
volunteer | 11:18 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
i just want you guys to know that if all parents really got involved with their
children's education ..it could solve a lot of the problems.. education
starts and ends in the home. the kids who succeed in school have support from
home. lets all get more involved and quit crying. if you don't like what
is going on in your child's school. volunteer and make a difference. we
are all in this together. it is not always about your child. maybe you could
be helping every child. PS i would like to get a voucher for my 3 college
attending children???? what do you think???
Happy | 11:17 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
YES!!! Bottom five in the country in education!!! Keep it up Utah, lets stick
with the status quo, and business as usual!!! We rock!!! Long live the
MONOPOLY that is the teachers union!!! Fear wins again!!!
Public Schools Forever!!! | 11:17 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Well after listening to Mr. Bryne (glorified liquidator) its obvious he
wasn't one of the chosen few that got to attend a private school. You
can't score 4 points in any sport with a 2 yard line, Duh!
If all you Pro Voucher people would put as much time and effort into the public schools as you did this vote, including mr. overstock we could have some nice public schools to send our kids to. This issue died because it would only serve a few selfish people and their coddled kids. All you charter-school parents are using charter schools for your own private school anyway. That is not what charter schools were made for but in Utah you get away with it. If you want to send your kid to a private school then go be a doctor or a lawyer and make more money so you can afford it.
If all you Pro Voucher people would put as much time and effort into the public schools as you did this vote, including mr. overstock we could have some nice public schools to send our kids to. This issue died because it would only serve a few selfish people and their coddled kids. All you charter-school parents are using charter schools for your own private school anyway. That is not what charter schools were made for but in Utah you get away with it. If you want to send your kid to a private school then go be a doctor or a lawyer and make more money so you can afford it.
Sam | 11:24 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
What if the founding fathers has not wasted all that time and money fighting for
the revolution, but had put all that energy into getting along with England. It
could have been so much better! Is this how you antis feel?
I for one am tired of hearing how we shouldn't use time or energy to change the status quo. Public schools are ok, but we can do better. The public schools have shown over many years that more money does NOT make them better. As was said by a wise man as recently as a month ago in SLC, good is ok, but we shouldn't settle for good when we can do better.
I for one am tired of hearing how we shouldn't use time or energy to change the status quo. Public schools are ok, but we can do better. The public schools have shown over many years that more money does NOT make them better. As was said by a wise man as recently as a month ago in SLC, good is ok, but we shouldn't settle for good when we can do better.
Kirk (redux) | 11:28 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
"Is it true that the UEA rejected a proposal to raise the starting salary
for new teachers?"
Yes. A few years ago, the legislature proposed raising starting teachers' salaries by $1,000 a allocate money for the incoming teachers.
However, because they can do basic arithmetic, the UEA saw this would have new teachers making more than 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th year teachers. What would happen? Teachers in that bracket would quit and get new jobs and the new scale. The legislature hadn't apportioned enough money for the $1,000 raise to 20% of the workforce. So the bill died when the UEA suggested something smaller across the board that wouldn't only affect new teachers. -- Something that would actually work.
It's similar to this year's "$2,500 bonus". Again the legislature was unable to do basic math and failed to allocate enough money to cover it.
Yes. A few years ago, the legislature proposed raising starting teachers' salaries by $1,000 a allocate money for the incoming teachers.
However, because they can do basic arithmetic, the UEA saw this would have new teachers making more than 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th year teachers. What would happen? Teachers in that bracket would quit and get new jobs and the new scale. The legislature hadn't apportioned enough money for the $1,000 raise to 20% of the workforce. So the bill died when the UEA suggested something smaller across the board that wouldn't only affect new teachers. -- Something that would actually work.
It's similar to this year's "$2,500 bonus". Again the legislature was unable to do basic math and failed to allocate enough money to cover it.
Legislative Integrity | 11:37 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
The one vote in the House of Representatives last spring was from a legislator
that does not have a private school within his district as the other house
members do. He is involved with the nuclear reactor along with the legislator
who is from Springville who is quoted on the voucher site who owns a nuclear
reactor company
Kirk (redux) | 11:39 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
"Is it true that the UEA rejected a proposal to pay math/science teachers
more than other teachers?"
Yes. First the nation and now Utah are facing teacher shortages. (With a wife who is a teacher all I can say is, "Who can blame people for NOT going into teaching?!?")
The largest hit area is math and science. Teachers with these skill sets are easily marketable to jobs that pay considerably better than teaching with far less stress. So many states have started to pay math and science teachers more.
UEA has recognized that this is a stop-gap measure at best. Fewer and fewer people are going into education. If you pay a section of those more than the rest, you will have a shift of focus of new teachers. Why teach history, when I can teach algebra for $3,000 more a year? Paying math and science teachers more will simply shift the shortage to other areas.
When you face a labor shortage, no matter your industry, you must do something to attract workers. So what does the Utah legislature do? Reduce retirement benefits of course! That will make teachers want to work/stay in Utah. Brilliant!
Yes. First the nation and now Utah are facing teacher shortages. (With a wife who is a teacher all I can say is, "Who can blame people for NOT going into teaching?!?")
The largest hit area is math and science. Teachers with these skill sets are easily marketable to jobs that pay considerably better than teaching with far less stress. So many states have started to pay math and science teachers more.
UEA has recognized that this is a stop-gap measure at best. Fewer and fewer people are going into education. If you pay a section of those more than the rest, you will have a shift of focus of new teachers. Why teach history, when I can teach algebra for $3,000 more a year? Paying math and science teachers more will simply shift the shortage to other areas.
When you face a labor shortage, no matter your industry, you must do something to attract workers. So what does the Utah legislature do? Reduce retirement benefits of course! That will make teachers want to work/stay in Utah. Brilliant!
Vinniecat | 11:41 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
I wish there was a way to allocate scholarship money to children who have
legitimate special needs and NEED a different education system. I don't
feel right about giving a $500 tax credit to families making over $120,000
annually. What really iced the cake for my NO vote were the insulting ads from
Parents for Choice in Education. They were horrible.
To Mr. A | 11:43 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Mr. A,
Wasn't there just recently a story about how Utah children tested 3rd lowest in the nation on science and math (eek!)? I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I remember that article in the news. The point being, our status quo is not good enough. How do you make public education improve? By making it compete. Vouchers would have done that. That being said however, I was not all for the way the voucher law was written. I think vouchers could be wonderful but the law should be rewritten and tweaked a bit.
Wasn't there just recently a story about how Utah children tested 3rd lowest in the nation on science and math (eek!)? I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I remember that article in the news. The point being, our status quo is not good enough. How do you make public education improve? By making it compete. Vouchers would have done that. That being said however, I was not all for the way the voucher law was written. I think vouchers could be wonderful but the law should be rewritten and tweaked a bit.
Neal Kramer | 11:46 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
It's very sad when the people have spoken as loudly as they have here in
Utah to hear our elected representatives talk about future voucher proposals.
It is certainly time for Utahns to awaken to the need to remove the most entrenched special interst in this state: the Republican legislature. It is not too early to begin the fight to unseat voucher proponents and replace them with representatives willing to do the people's will.
We must all realize that vouchers were brought to Utah by proponents of an idea floated by Milton Friedman in the fifties. It was a bad idea then and remains so. Let us not allow ourselves to be insulted by crackpot millionaires who think we are all subhuman.
Let private and charter schools flourish. Work hard to create magnet schools and other institutions for students with special needs. Subsidize the truly needy. But do not tamper with the single most important responsibility of this state: public education.
It is certainly time for Utahns to awaken to the need to remove the most entrenched special interst in this state: the Republican legislature. It is not too early to begin the fight to unseat voucher proponents and replace them with representatives willing to do the people's will.
We must all realize that vouchers were brought to Utah by proponents of an idea floated by Milton Friedman in the fifties. It was a bad idea then and remains so. Let us not allow ourselves to be insulted by crackpot millionaires who think we are all subhuman.
Let private and charter schools flourish. Work hard to create magnet schools and other institutions for students with special needs. Subsidize the truly needy. But do not tamper with the single most important responsibility of this state: public education.
Chas | 11:55 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
The Legislature has treated Public Education very well over the last couple of
years and the UEA thanked them by staging a revolt over what was actually a $7
million a year voucher program.
I hope that Utah lawmakers respond by gutting the Public Education budget next year and for years to come. I want to see how many of the very vocal teachers who claimed that they opposed vouchers to protect their students will stick it out in the classroom when they don't get any raises for a couple of years.
The NEA was willing to fund a multi-million-dollars campaign of lies against vouchers. Let's see if the national union bosses will be willing to bail out Utah public education when the political repercussions start.
I hope that Utah lawmakers respond by gutting the Public Education budget next year and for years to come. I want to see how many of the very vocal teachers who claimed that they opposed vouchers to protect their students will stick it out in the classroom when they don't get any raises for a couple of years.
The NEA was willing to fund a multi-million-dollars campaign of lies against vouchers. Let's see if the national union bosses will be willing to bail out Utah public education when the political repercussions start.
Parent Vouchers | 11:57 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
I would be all for vouchers if; for every student the private school takes, the
school gets to hand pick a student to attend the same school. Lets see how well
those private schools do with the student and the parent that are the real
problem with public schools. The private school has the freedom to get rid of
the problems. We need to address that issue before funding vouchers, a parent
accountability voucher is what is needed.
John Harvey | 11:58 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
"Taxes, after all, are the dues that we pay for the privileges of
membership in an organized society."
Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Utahans, on average, have a lot of children, therefore the taxes the average Utahan should be paying to support education should be significantly higher than the national average - if you just want the state to provide an "average education". If you want a high quality education than the taxes would need to be even higher.
Education costs money, high quality education costs even more, educating lots of children versus just a few kids cost yet more again, and providing a high quality eduction to lots of children costs the most.
John Harvey
Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Utahans, on average, have a lot of children, therefore the taxes the average Utahan should be paying to support education should be significantly higher than the national average - if you just want the state to provide an "average education". If you want a high quality education than the taxes would need to be even higher.
Education costs money, high quality education costs even more, educating lots of children versus just a few kids cost yet more again, and providing a high quality eduction to lots of children costs the most.
John Harvey
Happy | 12:00 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007
I don't know about anyone else but I'm satisfied with being ranked in
the bottom 5 of education. Now we can stay the course, stick with the status
quo and business as usual. Maybe next year we can crack the bottom 3...
Food for thought. | 12:02 p.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Quoted from "The Making of America; The Substance and Meaning of the
Constitution"
"In highly centralized, planned economics it is claimed that competition is wasteful. It is argued that it is a waste of resources to build two railroad tracks when one would carry the traffic.
But, that is not the way it works out. If there is only one track and only one company providing the service, an economic tragedy occurs. The track gets in disrepair, the service is abominable, and before long it is NOT handling the traffic. On the other hand, if there are two or more systems competing for the business, the tracks are constantly improved; the equipment gets faster, safer and more comfortable; the people get better service; more of them ride the train; more profits are made, and the system expands to areas which a monopoly system refuses to serve.
This leads us to the conclusion that competition is the most frugal and economical way to provide a product or a service. It is the monopoly system that wastes, decays, and degenerates into a miasma of disappointing results."
If you can guess, the public schools are the monopolized train system. Yay for monopolies!
"In highly centralized, planned economics it is claimed that competition is wasteful. It is argued that it is a waste of resources to build two railroad tracks when one would carry the traffic.
But, that is not the way it works out. If there is only one track and only one company providing the service, an economic tragedy occurs. The track gets in disrepair, the service is abominable, and before long it is NOT handling the traffic. On the other hand, if there are two or more systems competing for the business, the tracks are constantly improved; the equipment gets faster, safer and more comfortable; the people get better service; more of them ride the train; more profits are made, and the system expands to areas which a monopoly system refuses to serve.
This leads us to the conclusion that competition is the most frugal and economical way to provide a product or a service. It is the monopoly system that wastes, decays, and degenerates into a miasma of disappointing results."
If you can guess, the public schools are the monopolized train system. Yay for monopolies!
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Voucher proponents should try again with a much more specific focus. And voucher-receiving schools should have to meet stringent criteria.
Even the most ardent voucher fan would be horrified to find that their vouchers-for-all were funding radical fundamentalist schools teaching children to fight against American democracy.