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Vouchers killed
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Out of touch | 8:24 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Interesting. The governor and the legislators pass a voucher bill. People
object, put it on the ballot and it is defeated, soundly. People made their
arguements on boths sides, and did a good job. The voters spoke and rejected
what the legislature passed. The bigger story here is the LESSON IT TEACHES US.
The people who represent us are apparently either (1) out of touch with us or
(2) controlled by some entity other than the voters they represent. Probably a
little of both. When government is staffed with people who are rich you get
this kind of thing happening. This is not an anti rich rant, but honestly being
rich is a very, very fortunate event that occurs to only a very few people. Yet
these folks feel they are smarter because of their good fortune. Real life
tells us something different...the average person is not as dumb as advertised!
We can figure things out, we could (gasp!) actually govern also, with better
results! A referendum usually indicates a failure of the elected
representatives to represent their constiuents. A failure in the representative
democratic process. That is what happened here, but it was corrected by the
voters.
JA | 8:25 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Wake up! the unions do not want to fix the education problem, they never have.
If it is fixed; they lose the issue and the reason for their
existence....political power
Comments continue below
joe | 8:25 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Go Utah. You have thought for yourself and did not cave into lies, deceptions
and personal attacks by the pro voucher group. It is a wonderful start. Now lets
remember in our next election who these folks on the hill are you tried to jam
this mess down our throats and lets get rid of them also. They care not what you
want or think. They want to line their pockets. The will propose new legislation
that makes it more difficult to bring a isssue to a vote because their egos have
been badly damaged. I also think I will forgo any purchases from overstock.com.
That CEO has insulted the people of utah and does not deserve our business. I am
proud to live in Utah. Great Job
Hello.... | 8:27 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Do most of you realize that Utah is 3rd in the Nation for the amount of their
budget that is spent of education? That shows that Utah cares about their
students if they are willing to allocate such a large portion of their budget
for education. It is because we have such a large number of students that the
actual money per student is so small. I think it is great that Utah puts so
much of its budget into education. Perhaps parents need to take up some of the
slack if they feel their child's education is inadequate. All the
accountability is on the teacher but what about the student? What about the
parent? It is up to the student to take control of their own learning!
Sam | 8:28 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
It's time to shift gears and start looking to the future. How long will it
take for the teachers and the unions to change their tune? They will soon stop
telling us how great public schools are and will soon tell us that they are
falling apart and need more money to survive. LOTS more money. I'll bet
this takes less than 2 weeks. Any takers?
carol | 8:28 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
what is the matter with us!? I cannot believe in this state--where helping our
neighbors (and our neighbors' children--is our primary assignment (and a
self-satisfied mantra), that we want "what's mine," "my tax
$$," "for my kids only," in education discussions. We should be
delighted, thankful to contribute to the public system; if we prefer a different
choice for religious reasons or personal circumstances, we should gladly leave
"our share" (btw, no one can QUITE separate that out!), and expect to
pay for a different experience. I still have not heard a meaningful answer: if
private schools, why not a "private" police dept., a
"private" library system, "private" parks where we all take
"our share?!?" "Are we not all beggars?" Are we not our
brother's keeper? Apparently we have lost the vision of our pioneer
ancestors. This is not about unions, or millionaires, or poiticians or
"choice"-- it is plain selfishness.
slclifer | 8:28 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Mr. Byrne - you need to spend some of your millions on a course for yourself.
Civil Dialogue.
Biblionerd | 8:28 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
1. I'm blown away by the pathetic excuses by the losers. If that's
the depth of their intellectual analysis of this election, that alone should
make one ponder their ability to make informed choices about the education of
their children or anything else, for that matter.
2. O'Byrne has a right to be upset. He spent millions of his own money only to have it squandered on a campaign that couldn't deliver a single county in Utah. Again, one has to question the judgment of the voucher gang. Dumb and dumber.
2. O'Byrne has a right to be upset. He spent millions of his own money only to have it squandered on a campaign that couldn't deliver a single county in Utah. Again, one has to question the judgment of the voucher gang. Dumb and dumber.
Mahershalalhashbaz | 8:28 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Maybe Curtis doesn't think they are out of step with Republicans because
right in the Republican Platform it spells out what Republicans believe about
education. It says: EDUCATION?"We believe that all children should have
access to quality education. Parents have the primary right and responsibility
to educate their children, and we support their right to choose public, private,
or home education. We support INCENTIVES to promote competitive excellence.
"
Curtis isn't out of touch with the Republicans in Utah, the Republicans are out of touch with thier own worthless principles (worthless because they are being taught largely by a liberal Union that supports Democrats & who doesn't want them to know these principles.)
Curtis isn't out of touch with the Republicans in Utah, the Republicans are out of touch with thier own worthless principles (worthless because they are being taught largely by a liberal Union that supports Democrats & who doesn't want them to know these principles.)
PTA? | 8:28 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Russell commented on being disappointed that the PTA would throw its lot in with
the NEA. C'mon Russell, where have you been the last decade? When it
comes to political issues, the PTA has been marching lock-step with and acted as
the foot soldier for the UEA/NEA as long as I can remember.
The Utah PTA is supposed to be about all Parents, Teachers and somewhere in the mix all kids too. That should include public schools, charter schools, private schools, home-schools, et al. I haven't seen the PTA rushing out to give political support to anything unless UEA approved, ever.
The Utah PTA is supposed to be about all Parents, Teachers and somewhere in the mix all kids too. That should include public schools, charter schools, private schools, home-schools, et al. I haven't seen the PTA rushing out to give political support to anything unless UEA approved, ever.
Kirk | 8:29 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
First off, in the interest of full disclosure 1) my wife is a public school
teacher in Utah and has been for the last 15 years, 2) we have been unable to
have children, so we don't and haven't had children in the school
system.
We are pro school choice. A niece and nephew attend a charter school in Logan. While neither would classify as "special needs," they both have challenges that are being met at their charter school that sadly were pushed aside when they attended "regular" public school. Even with vouchers, I doubt their family could afford private school. But charter schools like theirs are public schools, funded with public dollars and open to all Utah students.
Utah schools aren't perfect. I think there is a lot that can and should be done with public schools to improve the quality of education provided to all Utah's kids and provide choice within the system -- charter school are one excellent example.
We are pro school choice. A niece and nephew attend a charter school in Logan. While neither would classify as "special needs," they both have challenges that are being met at their charter school that sadly were pushed aside when they attended "regular" public school. Even with vouchers, I doubt their family could afford private school. But charter schools like theirs are public schools, funded with public dollars and open to all Utah students.
Utah schools aren't perfect. I think there is a lot that can and should be done with public schools to improve the quality of education provided to all Utah's kids and provide choice within the system -- charter school are one excellent example.
parental involvement | 8:30 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
it seems that there is a lot of finger pointing on this issue... "public
education is not good enough", "union representation",
"parental choice." there are a lot of bandaids to the voucher issue,
but the only thing that can't be controlled is students numbers. parents
are looking for an excuse for their lack of involvement. if a student is
struggling in school, who gets the blame? not the parents. why would they? they
drop off their kids and hold the school accountable. but parents never hold
their own kids accountable. the quick fix is to cry wolf and put them in another
school. it is easy to jump schools when you can afford it and point fingers. the
real finger needs to be pointed at themselves for not getting involved in the
public schools. make sure you look at the ramifications of milwaukee,
wisconsin's voucher intervention. bandaids don't always work, but they
do bring accountability to the surface.
Charles | 8:29 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
I have to say I am glad that my tax money is not going to fund someone elses
child's private education. You have the choice to send your kids to private
school. If you can't afford it, sacrifice your boat or RV or get a second
or third job. Aren't your kids worth it? Or are they so special that we
take money from other children to put your child in private school? I agree that
the public schools could improve greatly. Hold teachers to higher standards with
yearly reviews. By peers, students, parents and testing of the students. If the
teacher does not cut it, let them go. There are many things we can do to improve
public education, taking money from it does not solve the problems. Oh by the
way, I think Mr Overstock.com has enough money to fund a voucher program on his
own for the whole state. Why don't you cough some money up for the kids
themselves, you wasted enough money that could have helped alot of kids on your
campaign for a lost cause. Not a good choice was it? I hope that this will
improve spending in our schools.
Utah Native | 8:30 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
I think this lost because people realized it was welfare for the well to do.
Glad to be Gone! | 8:32 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
I left Utah, I left the UEA, and now my kids get a great education. Doesn't
the UEA have a press release that they dust off every year that states
"this is the year that the legislature is going to get serious about
education and pour more money into our coffers". Hey Utah, enjoy the tax
hike. You voted for it.
NotFromUtar | 8:32 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
What a Shame! It's time to move to a true conservative state and let the
Liberals ruin this state like they have ruined several others!
135 IQ | 8:33 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
I voted no, not because I am an uneducated redneck, but because my taxes are
high enough. I have no problem with private schools, but I am not going to fund
them unless I am paying for my kids to attend out of pocket. We need to steer
away from the politically correct, socialist society that seems to be the hip
thing these days and work on getting personal responsibility and accountability
back into society. Throwing money away and at the problem rarely solves
anything and just makes the poor poorer and the rich richer.
TM | 8:32 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
"This is parents looking at their kids getting a third-rate education and
other kids getting basically a death sentence and saying, 'That's OK
by me."'
-Patrick Byrne, CEO of Overstock.com
Really Patrick? Really?
-Patrick Byrne, CEO of Overstock.com
Really Patrick? Really?
GHL | 8:37 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
The vote totals look very low. In our district it was the only item on the
ballot and the lines were endless. I'm sure the participation among
teachers and school district employees was near 100%. Unfortunately, it was, if
not a quasi-IQ test for non-government employees - at the very least a test of
their ability to intelligently inform themselves - and the most correct voting
state in the union failed the test. And that is disappointing. We are fortunate
that this nation's founding was not attempted with the intellectual caliber
that exists currently, even apparently in Utah.
Ross | 8:38 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Utah as a whole is not aware yet of the socialistic agenda of the UEA and the
NEA, and the failure of the schools to deal with minorities. To minorities Utah
has the worst schools in the country. This was an attempt to right the ship so
to speak, not by democrats but by conservative republicans who are looking out
for the good of all. Utah, you have made the choice and we all have to live with
it, but is is a type and shadow of things to come as with the socialistic agenda
being inflicted on our children every day in Utah Schools.
JBean | 8:39 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
When nearly 40% of your customers wish they had more viable options, that's
not exactly a big pat on the back.
Though the margin was large, the minority is still a pretty sizable minority. Changes are badly needed, choice is the best method to achieve those changes. Not more money for more of the same from the same people who made it how it is now.
If not vouchers, then I sincerely hope (though perhaps in vain) that the School Board will take the caps off of Charter School growth. Talk about long lines...
Charters are "voucher schools" within the public system. They get less money but are frequently turning out better results than their counterparts.
Of course, now the Board can go back to despising Charters as it did before this debate, wherein suddenly they were so proud of having so many "choices".
Though the margin was large, the minority is still a pretty sizable minority. Changes are badly needed, choice is the best method to achieve those changes. Not more money for more of the same from the same people who made it how it is now.
If not vouchers, then I sincerely hope (though perhaps in vain) that the School Board will take the caps off of Charter School growth. Talk about long lines...
Charters are "voucher schools" within the public system. They get less money but are frequently turning out better results than their counterparts.
Of course, now the Board can go back to despising Charters as it did before this debate, wherein suddenly they were so proud of having so many "choices".
What's next? | 8:39 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
It's clear that there are problems in legislative representation as well as
public education... my question is where do we go from here?
I think it's great that Utah politics and the problems of Utah public education were brought to the forefront of public attention by this debate. I hope that those who have been involved with this will continue to be involved in these issues in the future.
My personal belief is that the solution to our public education issues in Utah is a combination of: First, bringing our public school funding up to the levels of at least the average of other states (causing better pay for teachers, better teacher recruiting, and lower class sizes) and second, an extreme overhaul of the current status of parent involvement in their children's education.
As far as the special needs children(both advanced and underprivileged) I think an institution of magnet schools (created based on student needs as seen by parents and educators) is a great way to go.
Anyway, that's my two cents.
I think it's great that Utah politics and the problems of Utah public education were brought to the forefront of public attention by this debate. I hope that those who have been involved with this will continue to be involved in these issues in the future.
My personal belief is that the solution to our public education issues in Utah is a combination of: First, bringing our public school funding up to the levels of at least the average of other states (causing better pay for teachers, better teacher recruiting, and lower class sizes) and second, an extreme overhaul of the current status of parent involvement in their children's education.
As far as the special needs children(both advanced and underprivileged) I think an institution of magnet schools (created based on student needs as seen by parents and educators) is a great way to go.
Anyway, that's my two cents.
Conservative | 8:41 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Vouchers = socialism
David Harvey | 8:41 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
The fact remains, the problems with the voucher bill were never addressed.
Things like educational accountability, transparency and the ability to audit
financial and employment records of private schools accepting taxpayer money -
these are issues that I had after reading the voter information pamphlet and had
nothing to do with the 'liberal out of state unions.'
Kirk (cont.) | 8:42 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
As I said, we are pro school choice. However we voted against the vouchers for
some simple reasons.
Voucher proponents claimed that they would provide more money to our public schools. Yet one of the big selling points to the legislature was that it would save over $400 million. How do you loose federal per pupil funding and save over $400 million in Utah spending AND increase school funding? You can't increase funding by taking money away.
Second, they said they would reduce classroom size. This completely ignores how classroom sizes are maintained. Each year the principal gets estimated enrollment figures for the upcoming year, based on current enrollment and population trends. The principle figures how many teachers are needed for each grade based on legislative mandates and classroom availability. If at the beginning of the year enrollment exceeds estimates and classroom size mandates, the principal scrambles to find a classroom and teacher to meet mandates. If enrollment drops below mandates, the principal consolidates classes and transfers a teacher to another school that need her or lays off a new hire.
Vouchers wouldn't change this and so would do nothing to reduce class sizes.
Voucher proponents claimed that they would provide more money to our public schools. Yet one of the big selling points to the legislature was that it would save over $400 million. How do you loose federal per pupil funding and save over $400 million in Utah spending AND increase school funding? You can't increase funding by taking money away.
Second, they said they would reduce classroom size. This completely ignores how classroom sizes are maintained. Each year the principal gets estimated enrollment figures for the upcoming year, based on current enrollment and population trends. The principle figures how many teachers are needed for each grade based on legislative mandates and classroom availability. If at the beginning of the year enrollment exceeds estimates and classroom size mandates, the principal scrambles to find a classroom and teacher to meet mandates. If enrollment drops below mandates, the principal consolidates classes and transfers a teacher to another school that need her or lays off a new hire.
Vouchers wouldn't change this and so would do nothing to reduce class sizes.
Whiners | 8:44 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
My goodness. There are a lot of whiners. At my home I receivced 2 items from the
so-called union and 17 expensively produced cards touting vouchers. Proof enough
that they can afford to send their kids where they want to without my dime.
That being said, let's not blame UEA for this outcome. It does not have enough members to make this happen, so it seems to me the people have spoken. Let's also look at society, not UEA as the cause of some of the problems our system has. The Legislature needs to wake up and properly fund trhe special needs that many students bring to school -- language, poverty, etc. America is great because it has historically had a sold public education system, so now let's make sure it stays that way.
That being said, let's not blame UEA for this outcome. It does not have enough members to make this happen, so it seems to me the people have spoken. Let's also look at society, not UEA as the cause of some of the problems our system has. The Legislature needs to wake up and properly fund trhe special needs that many students bring to school -- language, poverty, etc. America is great because it has historically had a sold public education system, so now let's make sure it stays that way.
To Pathetic | 8:44 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
You do have a choice...send your child to a public school, or send them to a
private school. The choice is still yours. No one took away your choices, they
are still there. You just need to do whatever you feel best and most
appropriate for your child, understanding though that there are other factors to
take into consideration when making that choice. For example, if you want to
send your child to that private school, go ahead, it is your choice, just know
that you will have to pay extra for that particular choice. See? Easy.
hooray | 8:44 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Hooray for Socialism. I love government controled education. We need to level
the playing feild and tax the rich more so we can fix our government education.
All we need is more money. If we pay the school board more and teachers more
and buy more computers with more tax money it will work.
If these kids go to these other schools, the outcome is scary. They will end up thinking God created the world, that marriage is between a man and woman, that the nurturing nature of women is a good thing, that accountability for ones own action is good, that they are in charge of their own destiny, that government handouts are cripiling, that government should not have complete control, that sex should be held sacred for married people, that killing unborn children is not a right for should-be moms, that caring for the needy is a wonderful opportunity for charity not a perpetual wellfare government issue. How much more closed minded and bigotted could you get?
We can't lose control of our schools and power to enlighten the children with the glories of state control and government programs. Viva big government, hooray for socialism!
If these kids go to these other schools, the outcome is scary. They will end up thinking God created the world, that marriage is between a man and woman, that the nurturing nature of women is a good thing, that accountability for ones own action is good, that they are in charge of their own destiny, that government handouts are cripiling, that government should not have complete control, that sex should be held sacred for married people, that killing unborn children is not a right for should-be moms, that caring for the needy is a wonderful opportunity for charity not a perpetual wellfare government issue. How much more closed minded and bigotted could you get?
We can't lose control of our schools and power to enlighten the children with the glories of state control and government programs. Viva big government, hooray for socialism!
SAD | 8:45 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
I am disappointed in Utah voters!!!!! It is sad that we have supposedily,
"qualified" educators spreading misinformation about a tool that would
greatly benifit themselves and their students.
Father Johnson | 8:47 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Voucher supporters need to stop crying. You lost the battle, go home and heal
your wounds. If you want vouchers find a program that helps the poor and
dosn't reward the rich. Find a worthy program and maybe the good people of
Utah will go along with you. As for the GOP they are out of touch and selfish.
They listened to money and didn't do what was right for the State of Utah.
shame on you!
Kirk (cont.) | 8:48 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
People cry -- "They're my tax dollars, I should be able to take them
to whatever school I want." What of those of us without children. Since
our tax dollars aren't going to educate our children, shouldn't we be
able to take those dollars and do what we want with them? Maybe a nice
cruise.
Public road dollars build public roads. Private road dollars build toll roads (where they have them.) Public education dollars should build public education. Private dollars for private schools.
Public road dollars build public roads. Private road dollars build toll roads (where they have them.) Public education dollars should build public education. Private dollars for private schools.
Texas Resident | 8:48 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
I'm saddened to read that Utah has rejected vouchers. Utah had the
opportunity to become a leader in education, but instead has succumbed to
fear.
My wife is a Utah native, but we currently reside in Texas. We have thought about returning to the state, but the mediocre condition of Utah�s public education system is one of the reasons we�re still in Texas. We love Utah, but wish the education system would improve.
When will Utah's parents take the education system back from the UEA?
My wife is a Utah native, but we currently reside in Texas. We have thought about returning to the state, but the mediocre condition of Utah�s public education system is one of the reasons we�re still in Texas. We love Utah, but wish the education system would improve.
When will Utah's parents take the education system back from the UEA?
Nate | 8:49 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
What a shame that Utahns are so uneducated and irresponsible on their voting
against the vouchers. Lets face it, public education is going down hill, and
government can't stop it, no matter how high they raise taxes. Parents and
grandparents that voted against the vouchers have now voted for their children
and grandchildren to ride the public school system down hill, into the gutter.
That is really selfish of you all that voted against the vouchers.
Disgusted | 8:51 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
What a sad, sad day for our children. For those who voted against vouchers on
the argument that "EVERY child deserves a good education," I say, you
blew your chance to make that happen.
Public school teaches to the masses. There are, and always will be, children on both ends of the spectrum whose needs can never be met in public schools. Don't those children deserve a good education appropriate to their needs, too? And, shouldn't that education be paid for, in part, with public tax dollars as it is with all the "average" students?
The failure of these vouchers is telling these non-average students that their needs are not as important as their average counterparts. So much for putting the child first!
Public school teaches to the masses. There are, and always will be, children on both ends of the spectrum whose needs can never be met in public schools. Don't those children deserve a good education appropriate to their needs, too? And, shouldn't that education be paid for, in part, with public tax dollars as it is with all the "average" students?
The failure of these vouchers is telling these non-average students that their needs are not as important as their average counterparts. So much for putting the child first!
GOP against Vouchers | 8:56 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
As an educator and a republican I voted against Reforendum 1. All through the
campaign, proponents were blaming the Union for "scare tactics."
Proponents used some of their own, showing national level extreme liberals that
opposed them (Nancy P, Hilary, Ted Kennedy). That is the pot calling the kettle
black.
There were several issues that persuaded me to vote against Ref. 1, and to campaign against it. They were:
1. Tax break for the rich. The facade was that we were helping Utah's poor. In Salt Lake City, there are two major private high schools - at both, one year of tuition is more than the University of Utah. Utah's poor can't afford to attend Judge or Roland Hall, regardless of a $3000 tax break. Scholarships? Are they available to ALL below the poverty line?
2. Control of money saved by vouchers? Legislative control. We know how that works. How many legislators are college educated or have a background in education? Exactly. By the by, where is that bonus Huntsman promised?
3. More justification to recruit athletes to play for a high school outside of their own boundaries.
3. Tax dollars helping religious based schools? Separation of Church-State?
There were several issues that persuaded me to vote against Ref. 1, and to campaign against it. They were:
1. Tax break for the rich. The facade was that we were helping Utah's poor. In Salt Lake City, there are two major private high schools - at both, one year of tuition is more than the University of Utah. Utah's poor can't afford to attend Judge or Roland Hall, regardless of a $3000 tax break. Scholarships? Are they available to ALL below the poverty line?
2. Control of money saved by vouchers? Legislative control. We know how that works. How many legislators are college educated or have a background in education? Exactly. By the by, where is that bonus Huntsman promised?
3. More justification to recruit athletes to play for a high school outside of their own boundaries.
3. Tax dollars helping religious based schools? Separation of Church-State?
Blucoug | 8:56 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
I am a teacher in Washington State and I was surprised to see this measure fail
in a conservative state. I would have voted yes. While there are many good
teachers in the public school system, it is not good for every child, and
options should be made available. Having choices is what drives greatness in
this country.
Utah born | 8:59 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Mr. Byrne compares the voucher debate to a game in which you advance to the 2
yard line and try to score 4 points. My concern is that football is the only
game I am aware of that has a 2 yard line, and from that scenario 4 points is
not possible. It's refreshing to see that someone with such a great breadth
of knowledge is pushing for vouchers.
Quality School Supporter | 9:00 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
All this rhetoric about "choice" when it comes to schooling is silly.
All the people who support a voucher law have the right to send their kids to
private school right now. Its just that they can't raid the public
treasury to subsidize their efforts.
Utahns rightfully saw through this scam and voted a resounding "No" to vouchers.
Utahns rightfully saw through this scam and voted a resounding "No" to vouchers.
Nate | 9:00 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
As a parent of children somewhere outside of the Wasatch front, There are no
private schools remotely close to where I live. Why should I truck my kids 50
miles or more a day to school when there is a school two blocks away. I'm
glad that this voucher law was voted down. Now maybe the government will focus
on giving our public education system the money that it needs to succeed.
Questions? | 9:02 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Is it true that the UEA rejected a proposal to raise the starting salary for new
teachers?
Is it true that the UEA rejected a proposal to pay math/science teachers more than other teachers?
Is it true that the UEA rejected a proposal to pay math/science teachers more than other teachers?
Mike | 9:03 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
The big problem still remains. It's true Vouchers may not have been the
best solution to the problem, but this isn't a money issue, this is an
economic problem. Our public education system is monopolized by unions and
bureaucrats. Unless market is thrown into our educational systems, we will
always produce the poorest quality program and the most explensive price.
People need to see the big picture. They keep talking about bettering the
system that we have, but they've been doing that for 45 years. The problem
isn't betterment, it's the whole system. There's a good reason
it's produces bad results.
Unless competition is in the market, nothing will change. I don't make a lot of money, but my goal someday is to make enough to put my kids in private schools so that they can get a Quality education.
Unless competition is in the market, nothing will change. I don't make a lot of money, but my goal someday is to make enough to put my kids in private schools so that they can get a Quality education.
Kirk (cont.) | 9:02 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
My last comment.
My wife has taught for 15 years in Utah. We know a lot of Utah teachers. Overwhelmingly, if asked if they would prefer a raise or reduced class sizes, they respond with reduced class sizes.
My wife has taught first grade (mostly), third and second. Her class sizes are around 25 students a year. One year she had 29 first graders. Another she had 19. The difference was amazing. With 19 she could listen to each of them read, give one-on-one time to each student to help them achieve at their level.
With the 29, she was struggling to help the most needy. Leaving the best and brightest students without the time to help them succeed at their level. She was stressed, haggard and worn with the effort of the extra students. Unable to be her best, her students were robbed of the best teacher she can be.
If Utah wants to provide the best education possible to its children -- REDUCE. Reduce class sizes. Reduce school sizes. Reduce district sizes. Allow them to focus on each individual student. Build more charter schools. All this takes money the legislature refuses to spend.
My wife has taught for 15 years in Utah. We know a lot of Utah teachers. Overwhelmingly, if asked if they would prefer a raise or reduced class sizes, they respond with reduced class sizes.
My wife has taught first grade (mostly), third and second. Her class sizes are around 25 students a year. One year she had 29 first graders. Another she had 19. The difference was amazing. With 19 she could listen to each of them read, give one-on-one time to each student to help them achieve at their level.
With the 29, she was struggling to help the most needy. Leaving the best and brightest students without the time to help them succeed at their level. She was stressed, haggard and worn with the effort of the extra students. Unable to be her best, her students were robbed of the best teacher she can be.
If Utah wants to provide the best education possible to its children -- REDUCE. Reduce class sizes. Reduce school sizes. Reduce district sizes. Allow them to focus on each individual student. Build more charter schools. All this takes money the legislature refuses to spend.
Almost a graduate | 9:03 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
I don't remember ever thinking that parent's didn't have a
choice. Any parent has the choice of putting their child(ren) into a private
school. Vouchers wouldn't have added to or taken that away. Parents have
choices right now every day of the week. It would be a huge financial burden to
send my kids to private school if I choose to do that. An extra job, one car vs.
two, smaller home, sell the play station, etc. With choice comes sacrifice.
I certainly don't think that the school system is as good as it can be, and I am a bit nervous about my kids in public school. But, on the other hand, it is my responsibility as a parent to make sure that the school where my kids will go offers the best education. I feel for the leadership of those schools because I will be a heavily involved parent which is what we all should be. Parents need to step it up. Be good and involved parents, not whiny victims. Demand better from the schools where your children attend. Don't wait for deaf myopic polititions to help. They are not as smart as you!
I certainly don't think that the school system is as good as it can be, and I am a bit nervous about my kids in public school. But, on the other hand, it is my responsibility as a parent to make sure that the school where my kids will go offers the best education. I feel for the leadership of those schools because I will be a heavily involved parent which is what we all should be. Parents need to step it up. Be good and involved parents, not whiny victims. Demand better from the schools where your children attend. Don't wait for deaf myopic polititions to help. They are not as smart as you!
The real voucher | 9:03 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
If it is about accountability, the the San juan school district had better start
acknowledging the power of the native american numbers and contribution to
enable all these big families who pay their taxes. They had better recognize the
importance of the census #'s which are so valuble to enable their children
to get the quality of education that they do. No longer can they as educators
ignore the past history as every lawsuit that this district has thrown at these
people to hender them in their pursuit of education has been defeated.When ever
a system or instituition does not allow for questioning , in a land that is
known for freedom , gives blantant favoritism to a certain sector time after
time the educated must step forward and make the proper changes that are right!
And that is a direct ideal of the great Lowell Bennion who challenged the voting
practices in this district before. It is time to recognize the elephant in the
room as not to do so , is to not tell the truth and that is what education is
all about , the truth!
RyanL | 9:04 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Response to Union Response:
You said: "The UEA was against this flawed voucher bill because it would NOT raise salaries or lower class sizes. The only way these two things will happen is with increased investment in education, not a smoke and mirrors attempt to fool the electorate."
First of all, in the last three years the legislature has attempted to lower class sizes by increasing spending on education by over 300 million dollars. Class sizes have not decreased. Why not? Since the legislature does not control the money once it is allocated to the districts and the districts have failed to use the money for the reasons for which it was earmarked, the blame is squarely on the districts.
Second, you are correct that this particlar bill did not increase teacher salaries. However, another bill from last session gave $2500 raises to EVERY teacher through a direct allocation that could ONLY be spent on teacher salaries and could not be used by the districts for any other purposes. These raises were OPPOSED by the districts and the UEA.
It looks to me like the legislature is trying to help and is putting its money where its mouth is.
You said: "The UEA was against this flawed voucher bill because it would NOT raise salaries or lower class sizes. The only way these two things will happen is with increased investment in education, not a smoke and mirrors attempt to fool the electorate."
First of all, in the last three years the legislature has attempted to lower class sizes by increasing spending on education by over 300 million dollars. Class sizes have not decreased. Why not? Since the legislature does not control the money once it is allocated to the districts and the districts have failed to use the money for the reasons for which it was earmarked, the blame is squarely on the districts.
Second, you are correct that this particlar bill did not increase teacher salaries. However, another bill from last session gave $2500 raises to EVERY teacher through a direct allocation that could ONLY be spent on teacher salaries and could not be used by the districts for any other purposes. These raises were OPPOSED by the districts and the UEA.
It looks to me like the legislature is trying to help and is putting its money where its mouth is.
Remay1 | 9:04 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Score one for Mrs. Clinton, Nancy Pelosi and the national teacher's union.
You can often tell which side of an issue you should be on by looking at those
who are supporting it. I, for one, will be against anything Hilary supports 99
time out of 100.
Now that we've handed them a tremendous victory, look for the teachers to be directly in the faces of the state legislature in January looking to cash in on all that money dim witted Utahans thought they were saving by not allowing public money to go into education. The teachers will get all of it and more, and then will be back next year for more. The really do call the tune in Utah. And what do we get for all the money we hand them? Steadily declining test scores, students who can't do even basic math or write a simple declarative sentence, and have no idea who Alexander Hamilton was. Oh yes, let's give them more money -- and get less results. How dumb are we.
Now that we've handed them a tremendous victory, look for the teachers to be directly in the faces of the state legislature in January looking to cash in on all that money dim witted Utahans thought they were saving by not allowing public money to go into education. The teachers will get all of it and more, and then will be back next year for more. The really do call the tune in Utah. And what do we get for all the money we hand them? Steadily declining test scores, students who can't do even basic math or write a simple declarative sentence, and have no idea who Alexander Hamilton was. Oh yes, let's give them more money -- and get less results. How dumb are we.
Losing the 1 | 9:03 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
The voucher debate lost its focus in facts and figures. In this initiative, the
biggest loser is the 1 child who has special 1-on-1 education needs. My children
will remain in the public school where they currently attend, because it fits
their needs. But for other members of my extended family, they need this voucher
to give them the school choice needed to educate their children.
For all those who voted AGAINST vouchers, consider WHO you voted against - the low-income student, the single mother, the minimum-wage working mother and father. Shame! on "compassionate" Utahns.
For all those who voted AGAINST vouchers, consider WHO you voted against - the low-income student, the single mother, the minimum-wage working mother and father. Shame! on "compassionate" Utahns.
Sour Grapes | 9:05 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
64% Against 33% For! I guess at private elite school they don't teach math
very well. The voters saw this law had flaws, and didn't want to give the
rubber stamp of approval to more wasted spending. This vote wasn't about
public school being right for everyone, or telling teachers they are terrible.
The way the bill was set up the surplus funds wouldn't go to back to
education. It would go to the state tax surplus, and then they (state
legislature) would decide were all the money goes.(if we had a surplus in that
year, and it would go to road improvements "just look for the orange
barrels")Instead of wining about losing, maybe you should do something
about it. Like rally and force law makers to put together a better law that
would establish a voucher system that would benefit both students and public
schools!
Money well spent? | 9:06 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Just thinking... What if the millions of dollars and thousands of hours had been
spent working to improve our public school system rather than towards trying to
abandon it. If our public schools need improvement, let's all work together
to make them better. I fervently believe that a healthy public education system
that reaches all children is our best insurance for a healthy future.
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