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Vouchers killed
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Todd | 7:27 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Boy, the pro-voucher people sure are sore losers. Throughout the whole campaign
they have been saying that they are "for public schools." However,
now they are all coming out and showing their true colors. I saw one
pro-voucher person this morning comparing US public schools to Albanian schools.
Others like Byrnes are essentially saying Utahns are stupid. If these people
"care" about education, then they would realize that the way to
improve public schools is by investing in them (since you have to work with the
people and they clearly are opposed to vouchers). The whole voucher camp should
take a lesson from Dave Buhler, who graciously conceded to Becker and pledged to
support him.
RE: Bob G | 7:29 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Sounds like sour grapes to me...people turned away and long lines and the
accuracy of the voting machines. Give me a break. I waited in line for an hour
so I could vote. If people were turned away which I'm sure didn't
happen it was because they didn't want to wait in the long line.
As for Utah public eduation is very bad and a disgrace to Utah...I wonder how it got there....because of the lack of funding by the legislature...don't blame the state education system..blame the state legislature...that's where the problem starts.
As for Utah public eduation is very bad and a disgrace to Utah...I wonder how it got there....because of the lack of funding by the legislature...don't blame the state education system..blame the state legislature...that's where the problem starts.
Comments continue below
Elviejo | 7:28 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Congratulations to the winners. I hope the legislators who passed the bill get
the message. Obviously the schools realize they don't need more money per
pupil, which voucher would have given them. Now the legislators, if they have
any guts, can cut the school budget by 10 percent or so in order for the schools
to prove they don't need the money they would have received if voucher had
gone into effect. I am going to contact my representatives and encourage them
the follow my humble and brilliant suggestion.
J. F. | 7:29 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
A public system can compete with private enterprise only when it has already
been given the right leadership and flexibility to do so. For example, most
industries privatized by East Germany when the Berlin wall fell failed because
they were not equipped to compete with private enterprise competition from
WGermany. Public schools have not yet been equipped to compete with private
schools -- they have neither the autonomy nor the resources to do so. While
competition would help improve education in Utah in the (very) long run, in the
short run we would have seen an immediate exodus of the best students and
teachers from the public schools, leading to a poor educational experience for
anyone who was left (if vouchers had passed). And, eventually, you would see a
lower level of funding for public education as a result. The public system
could only reform in response to its own failure. My kids are all in public
schools now, and I don't want them to be failed by their schools. The Utah
legislature needs to act responsibly and immediately earmark all of the dollars
set aside to pay for vouchers for public school reform.
Cookie | 7:31 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Tthe cookie add was insulting to most Utahns. Vouchers were killed by their own
advertising. You think the legislature was really supportive of improving
education by passing vouchers? They were just trying to save money. The
legislature was not mentioning that competition might make the education
better. They were after more efficiency and saving a dollar. The cookie add
presupposed that Utah parents wanted the same thing. Maybe Utah is smarter than
the cookie add. If vouchers started to cost the state more in five years, they
would just repeal the tax credit. It is all about what saves the most money, not
what is best for education of children.
Quin | 7:31 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Patrick Byrne's comments are completely over-the-top. Ashamed? Kids are
getting a "death sentence" ???? For crying out loud, no wonder
vouchers were defeated with an advocate who talks like that. I might have voted
in favor of vouchers, but this bill had too many holes. How do Utah lawmakers
justify funding schools where the teachers don't have to meet standards of
training or skills? Where schools have no expectations regarding curriculum or
results?
If Byrne and vouchers' other supporters want vouchers to succeed, they might try ratcheting down the rhetoric and start seriously addressing the accountability issue. After Republicans (and I am one) moved to hold public schools strictly accountable through No Child Left Behind, they should hold private institutions equally responsible. That they want to treat private schools differently shows a serious double standard, and that's what killed vouchers in Utah.
If Byrne and vouchers' other supporters want vouchers to succeed, they might try ratcheting down the rhetoric and start seriously addressing the accountability issue. After Republicans (and I am one) moved to hold public schools strictly accountable through No Child Left Behind, they should hold private institutions equally responsible. That they want to treat private schools differently shows a serious double standard, and that's what killed vouchers in Utah.
Great Victory? | 7:33 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
I had no idea you were paying for my childs education, I thought I was paying
for your childs.
I was just asking for a little of MY OWN MONEY BACK. You still would have kept more than half MY allotted money. Brilliant Utah!
I was just asking for a little of MY OWN MONEY BACK. You still would have kept more than half MY allotted money. Brilliant Utah!
Perspective | 7:34 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
The legislature should instead focus on legislation to encourage the creation of
more charter schools. It would give parental choice and create competition in
the system, but maintain better state oversight and availability to all
families.
This law was flawed from the start. I might have supported it if the range of the voucher benefit was more like $300-$6000. That would have made it possible for the poorest families to afford the full cost of private school tuition, and created an incentive for the creation of new private schools. As it was, the law would not save any money for the public schools or reduce class sizes unless new private schools were built, and the size of the voucher benefit was too small to make that happen.
This law was flawed from the start. I might have supported it if the range of the voucher benefit was more like $300-$6000. That would have made it possible for the poorest families to afford the full cost of private school tuition, and created an incentive for the creation of new private schools. As it was, the law would not save any money for the public schools or reduce class sizes unless new private schools were built, and the size of the voucher benefit was too small to make that happen.
Move forward | 7:34 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
I was opposed to the vouchers but now hope that the legislature will come back
with something that addresses the concerns this bill failed to address. I
believe fully in the concept of privatizing our school system and hope that we
can now get a better bill that really helps the poor instead of adding to the
pockets of the rich.
I also believe we need to look at our tax system which allows so many exemptions for people who choose to have large families. I am not arguing against their right to have large families, only against the system that passes the burden of those large families on to others.
I also believe we need to look at our tax system which allows so many exemptions for people who choose to have large families. I am not arguing against their right to have large families, only against the system that passes the burden of those large families on to others.
GRS | 7:34 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
I don't think this is dead. We just need to come up with a way to, fair
and equitably, use the funds we have. My kids go to public schools. I see
their schools go without while other schools get things we need. There's
only so much to go around. To pull away another $430 mil. for a kid to go to
private school is tough to swallow. Use the money to provide everyone with the
best education we can. Get rid of the unions and allow the school districts to
get great teachers and pay them a decent wage and we won't need the option.
Thomas Jefferson | 7:38 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
What victory? What did the anti-voucher folks win exactly? They didn't
vote for an idea, they voted to kill one, they did not vote for improvement or
change but rather the status quo. Which, by the way was with us yesterday, the
day before, last week, last year, and for generations. Change will happen, just
more slowly. As the general population continues to be force-fed from the
UEA's status quo trough of self-interest with no chance for reform, this
trough will continue to mirro general societal decline and eventually there will
be enough of us realize there is a river of milk and honey out there called
freedom. While we don't leave Eygpt just yet there will come a time many
of us will see our way through. I feel blessed to part of the solution instead
of the problem. There cannot, will not, be meaningful reform occur until it is
feasible for the true customers of education to be free to opt out should there
be the need. They have opposed every single reform idea, merit pay, testing,
charter schools, vouchers for special ed kids, etc. etc. etc. Self-interest
isn't a principled idea, its just self interest.
Same old 3rd rate | 7:39 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Too bad. Parents are stuck with public school bureaucracy and Utah students are
again left with a third rate education system.
Maybe the legislature can lift the limit on charter schools and help the children who are continually lost in the public education cracks. I've experienced competition in education work in other states where children can learn with the system that works for them.
Our children attend a charter school (a public school run by parents) and have excelled from their experience in the district-run public school. Our family will continue to stay out of the district public schools.
I agree with Mr. Byrne. This is a shame and again Utah children lose. Also, too bad Gov. Huntsman backed down and didn't come out in full support of vouchers towards the end...I think he was looking for votes for the next election cycle. I didn't vote for him the first time and won't vote for him the 2nd time either.
Maybe the legislature can lift the limit on charter schools and help the children who are continually lost in the public education cracks. I've experienced competition in education work in other states where children can learn with the system that works for them.
Our children attend a charter school (a public school run by parents) and have excelled from their experience in the district-run public school. Our family will continue to stay out of the district public schools.
I agree with Mr. Byrne. This is a shame and again Utah children lose. Also, too bad Gov. Huntsman backed down and didn't come out in full support of vouchers towards the end...I think he was looking for votes for the next election cycle. I didn't vote for him the first time and won't vote for him the 2nd time either.
dcc | 7:39 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
California Andy:
The people of Utah are not against education just the funding of two education systems. You made the choice of private schools. You contracted with a service. Pay for it.
It wasn't the teachers' union that influenced my vote. I'm actually quite capable of making up my own mind. I voted against it because it was wrong in every way. Plus I have no kids and pay enough taxes. Parents who choose private schools don't deserve any more of my money.
The people of Utah are not against education just the funding of two education systems. You made the choice of private schools. You contracted with a service. Pay for it.
It wasn't the teachers' union that influenced my vote. I'm actually quite capable of making up my own mind. I voted against it because it was wrong in every way. Plus I have no kids and pay enough taxes. Parents who choose private schools don't deserve any more of my money.
fr1nk | 7:42 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
I am so glad this failed. Now we need to rid the legislature of those who voted
for this ill advised mess in the first place. Vouchers were/are a bad idea that
doesnt help public schools.
Union Yes! | 7:45 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
The National teacher's union has scored another victory, tightening their
strangle hold on Utah educucation.
Horrible "teachers" can continue to not teach our children while drawing equal pay and benefits as the few good teachers without fear or accountability.
Union wins!!! Utah children lose.
Horrible "teachers" can continue to not teach our children while drawing equal pay and benefits as the few good teachers without fear or accountability.
Union wins!!! Utah children lose.
Be realistic | 7:45 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Some Utahns, particularly tachers, need to be realistic. With the birth rate
being what it is here we will never have enough money to give the teachers or
the children what they want or need. There is no way the people of this state
can support the number of children coming in. Therefore other options must be
created.
Don't give up legislature! Don't presume that this means the people of Utah think that the public schools are not a mess. But also don't presume that we want to be taxed to death. There must be a way to educate our children effectively without slaughtering the financial lives of the people who live here.
Don't give up legislature! Don't presume that this means the people of Utah think that the public schools are not a mess. But also don't presume that we want to be taxed to death. There must be a way to educate our children effectively without slaughtering the financial lives of the people who live here.
Trevor | 7:45 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
I for one am pleased with the outcome, but I much more pleased with all of the
public discussion that went into the referendum so that, should they choose to
look for it. Voters at least could find a great deal of information on either
side of the issue in public forum. Admittedly, the advertising & polling in
this contest left much to be desired, but it was well debated. And the people
have spoken. I find it comforting and refreshing that the voters have a way to
hold legislators accountable when their policy decisions become significantly
out of touch with public opinion.
Clare | 7:48 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Hurrah! I'm thrilled spitless that the vote went the way it did. I'm
also tired of people accusing the Teacher's ASSOCIATION of being interested
only in making more money. I'm satisfied with my pay. I just wish I had
more help in my classroom and less students so I could do a better job teaching.
As for my ASSOCIATION dues going down. NOT!!!! Also, if my students are
condemned to a "DEATH SENTENCE," why have some many grow up and had
successful careers and lives. The only students who have not are the ones who
have chosen not to even though they had the ability to do so. Hallelujah, the
wicked vouchers are DEAD!
skaggfacemutt | 7:48 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
No one is saying that you don't have a choice to put your kids in private
schools! We are just saying don't ask us to pay for it! If the pro-voucher
supporters stopped trying to put their hand in my pocket, and instead worked on
passing a law to abolish fee waivers and free lunches, especially for illegal
immigrants, then maybe the schools would have enough money to reduce class sizes
and improve public schools. Getting rid of welfare is the key, not trying to
create more welfare.
QualitySchoolSupporter | 7:52 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
This voucher law sure had a sordid history. First, the legislature crams it
down our throat at the end of the session by one vote. Than they pass a second
law and try and tell us even a referendum can't kill the thing. It takes a
ruling by the Utah Supreme Court to tell Mark Shurtleff and the other clowns who
run the state that the people are still in charge. These wealthy families
really expected Utahns to sit back while they got financial help to send their
kids to private school.
This loss couldn't have happened to a nicer bunch of people. Three cheers.
This loss couldn't have happened to a nicer bunch of people. Three cheers.
Mahershalalhashbaz | 7:57 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
I agree with Pat Byrne. It's pathetic that Utah didn't jump at this.
I'm ashamed of Utah citizens. They are just as liberal as the rest of the
country including Massachusettes. Shameful. One of the major reasons the rich
become richer is the rich have school choice, but the poor have only 1 choice.
Knowledge is power. That is why over 1/2 of all senators in the US put thier
children in private schools (20/20 myths, lies, and nasty behavior).
"And the people began to be distinguished by ranks, according to their riches and their chances for learning: yea, some were ignorant because of their poverty, and others did receive great learning because of their riches." Way to go Utah, you just lost a great opportunity! You just limited your chances of learning by defeating this.
"And the people began to be distinguished by ranks, according to their riches and their chances for learning: yea, some were ignorant because of their poverty, and others did receive great learning because of their riches." Way to go Utah, you just lost a great opportunity! You just limited your chances of learning by defeating this.
MamaD | 7:59 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Russell Reeve, you mentioned that the teachers were among the "losers"
in this vote for vouchers but all the teachers I know in my area voted against
the bill because there were too many uncertainties about it's ability to
actually work as well as people were hoping it would.
A public school teacher | 8:00 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
I have taught elementary school in Utah and my current state and I also hoped
for a good voucher initiative that would pass. As a teacher and a parent, I
don't like the status quo. Those who crow on this board in support of
public schools must be listening to the propaganda ads put out by the unions and
not doing their own research. Our public schools are seriously lacking. We
will move back to Utah in a few years after my husband retires. We will still
have 3 children at home at that time. They will NOT be attending a public
school in Utah. We will send them to a private school or I will homeschool them
myself as money has been thrown at the schools there (and everywhere else also)
for years and nothing changes. We just continue to raise taxes and they add
more administration--the school districts are all seriously top-heavy. Very
little money actually reaches the teachers or students.
Charles | 8:02 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
What I really don't understand is why small government conservatives and
libertarians were in such support for this. Stossel just posted his response and
considered himself over-enthusiastic in the cause for vouchers. This was not
"choice" in education. This was the government putting money into
private schools. What happens next? Government requires strings attached to that
money - it would be irresponsible otherwise. Government will require testing.
Courses are taught based on that test. There will be STRINGS attached to that
money, folks. How can you support reduced government, then want the government
to intervene in private education? A new government program WILL NOT reduce the
size of government. It is illogical and impossible to think such.
Tax breaks are needed for those who send their children to private schools. The simplest solution is the best one and that is why I voted against.
Tax breaks are needed for those who send their children to private schools. The simplest solution is the best one and that is why I voted against.
Public Education is Not Broken | 8:03 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
I am appreciate to live in a country where the legislature passes a bill that
the state disagrees with and our voices can be heard.
It is true we have the highest teacher/student ratio and spend the least amount of money per student in the country. However, despite these strikes, Utah students are succeeding in our system. We have a high graduation rate, high test scores, high rate of admissions to college, etc. Just think of what could be done if we invested more in public education.
Just remember, most adults in Utah were educated in public schools. Our adults are well educated.
Also, I can see why teachers would be upset. Public educators work extremely hard with the resources they are given. Of course they are going to be defensive when they keep getting told they aren't doing what they can for every student. Private schools can choose who attends (just like universities). Public accept every student and service them to the best of their abilities. Give them more resources to work with please.
It is true we have the highest teacher/student ratio and spend the least amount of money per student in the country. However, despite these strikes, Utah students are succeeding in our system. We have a high graduation rate, high test scores, high rate of admissions to college, etc. Just think of what could be done if we invested more in public education.
Just remember, most adults in Utah were educated in public schools. Our adults are well educated.
Also, I can see why teachers would be upset. Public educators work extremely hard with the resources they are given. Of course they are going to be defensive when they keep getting told they aren't doing what they can for every student. Private schools can choose who attends (just like universities). Public accept every student and service them to the best of their abilities. Give them more resources to work with please.
Big Al | 8:03 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
It was interesting that in the article Kory Holdaway indicated that legislators
should listen to all the people. While Greg Curtis, legislative leader,
indicated that he was working for the prevailing party. Pretty revealing
comment.
Dr. Rob | 8:03 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Utah has chosen the loose-loose strategy this time around. Now when a family
needs or wants to sent a child to private school the public system gets NOTHING,
the parents are out all of the tuition, and there is a clear us-them
(public-private, rich-poor, have-have not) division created in the minds of the
public. Everyone looses.
Vouchers were not the entire answer but at least they would have been a very small piece of the larger complex puzzle.
They could have helped. They could have been a small win-win program adding and encouraging parents to invest in directly in their kid�s education. The public system would get resources and the families would get some resources (note families, not private schools) and overall, more money would go toward educating Utah children (public and private).
What is most discouraging is the clear evidence that in politics if you tell a big enough lie, often enough, with the right representative (grandpa, soccer mom, etc) people will believe it (see KSL report on the campaign, and read the voter information packet).
So in addition too a loose-loose strategy, truth fell victim to a well packaged, cleaver, smear campaign.
Vouchers were not the entire answer but at least they would have been a very small piece of the larger complex puzzle.
They could have helped. They could have been a small win-win program adding and encouraging parents to invest in directly in their kid�s education. The public system would get resources and the families would get some resources (note families, not private schools) and overall, more money would go toward educating Utah children (public and private).
What is most discouraging is the clear evidence that in politics if you tell a big enough lie, often enough, with the right representative (grandpa, soccer mom, etc) people will believe it (see KSL report on the campaign, and read the voter information packet).
So in addition too a loose-loose strategy, truth fell victim to a well packaged, cleaver, smear campaign.
BotchedExperiment | 8:08 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Thanks Utah--So you're saying you have no role in your children's
education? Lets see...I'm not happy with my child's education, so the
only remedy is a private school. Take responsibility for your child's
education!
Teresa | 8:08 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
How many of you disgruntled parents who want our tax dollars to pay for private
school have actually spent time in a public school classroom? Teaching is unlike
any other profession in this world because the majority of teachers are not in
this job for the "enormous" paychecks they receive each month.(First
year teachers can qualify for food stamps). They teach because they love
children and they truly want to make a difference in their young lives. It must
be very disheartening to these teachers to know that so many parents, who have
never even spent one hour in one of these teachers' classrooms, have
absolutely no trust or respect for the teachers who are teaching their children.
Here's a wake up call for all of you: education is in the hands of the
student. Teachers can teach until they are blue in the face, until that student
decides they want to learn, learning, whether from a private school or a public
school, will not happen. In addition, there is a lot to be said for parental
involvement. Six and a half hours a day are at school, where are the rest?
Think about it.
Happy!!! | 8:08 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
I'm just glad my tax dollars aren't going to pay for someone elses
kids private school education-like it's been stated earlier, Utahns still
have a choice, but now I'm not the one paying for it. Thanks you Utah
voters, you made the right choice without a doubt!
Successful Public Ed Product | 8:10 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
I love how some comments label all graduates of the public education failures. I
never went to private school including college. I never received a pell grant
or public money to pay even for college. I graduated with a 4.0 GPA on a 4.0
scale yet I was not the highest ranked student in my high school. My parents had
7 children and adopted 3 others. We barely had money for food. Survived on
second hand clothes. My parents both worked two jobs because they never went to
college. Yet, they found time to help me with my homework, volunteered in the
classroom, helped with my school projects, etc.
I learned something that many pro-school choice advocates do not get. Motivated students, supported by caring parents, can achieve excellence even in a public school. You do not need a private education to be outstanding!
By the way I am a teacher. I was recruited by 7 different states with higher salaries, but decided I wanted to stay in Utah. Why? Because I love the environment and I felt needed here. Not everyone wants to be a wealthy CEO. Success is in the eyes of the individual, not the pocketbook.
I learned something that many pro-school choice advocates do not get. Motivated students, supported by caring parents, can achieve excellence even in a public school. You do not need a private education to be outstanding!
By the way I am a teacher. I was recruited by 7 different states with higher salaries, but decided I wanted to stay in Utah. Why? Because I love the environment and I felt needed here. Not everyone wants to be a wealthy CEO. Success is in the eyes of the individual, not the pocketbook.
Parent in Jordon School District | 8:10 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Everyone wants choice. At the same time I align my veiws with our founding
fathers. A democracy without a solid public education system will eventually
fail.
I would like to see more local control of state education dollars, a feeder system governance, community inclusive governance, more choices inside my neighborhood schools. More information and support for non-traditional learners. Relationships of synergy between teachers, parents, administrators, school partners, community leaders, community services and local businesses. We all want the same outcome, every child educated to his or her full potential.
I challenge your readers to approach this time of change with new ideas which can work inside a solid public education system. New ideas for collaboration and implimentation within our communites and school districts. The time for change is now! I believe in the free interprise system, but the voucher iniative has a hint of government control. I want real universal change. Let us all get thinking, talking, and doing.
I would like to see more local control of state education dollars, a feeder system governance, community inclusive governance, more choices inside my neighborhood schools. More information and support for non-traditional learners. Relationships of synergy between teachers, parents, administrators, school partners, community leaders, community services and local businesses. We all want the same outcome, every child educated to his or her full potential.
I challenge your readers to approach this time of change with new ideas which can work inside a solid public education system. New ideas for collaboration and implimentation within our communites and school districts. The time for change is now! I believe in the free interprise system, but the voucher iniative has a hint of government control. I want real universal change. Let us all get thinking, talking, and doing.
Mightyhunterhaha | 8:11 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Patrick Byrne is ashamed of Utah. How dare he. he wants Utah to jump on board of
BAD LEGISLATION. He wants Utahns to be sheep to give support vouchers that would
have cost Utah millions ans that is just the legal challenges that would result
as the vouchers go against the State Constitution. He sounds a lot like the
Legislator or years gone by thet sponsered teh Bill to ban cable TV which
eventually lost in the Supreme Court but cost Millions of hard working tax
payers dollars. Byrne's needs to help put together a bill that will help
Utah education and Utahns will support it. That would be using his intellegence.
New Voucher System | 8:14 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Here is a novel idea. Give a tax credit to those families whose kids make it
through the system without causing headaches to the teachers, administrators and
other students. If your child actually goes to class, never gets in trouble,
never vandalizes their school, doesn't drink,or never does drugs. The
parents should get credit for that well behaved student. Maybe a cash incentive
will make parents actually take some responsibility in the raising of their
children. Nothing else seems to be working. Public or private schools
aren't the answer to a well educated and well rounded child. It comes from
parents who do their part in making sure things happen the way they are supposed
to.
Class size doesn't cause a student to fail. Not using all the resources that are already available is the problem. If sending your child to a private school is one of those resources then do it. But asking someone else to pay for it just allows for you to shift your responsibilities to others.
Class size doesn't cause a student to fail. Not using all the resources that are already available is the problem. If sending your child to a private school is one of those resources then do it. But asking someone else to pay for it just allows for you to shift your responsibilities to others.
DVB | 8:14 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
The scare tactics worked. Sad.
Legislators are out of touch | 8:13 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
The real defeat here, I predict, is that the legislature will not be allowing
anything going to a public vote for a long time. The legislature was in favor of
vouchers, even though a majority of citizens were against them. Now the the
citizens have voted down the law, the legislature will start keeping everything
away from us, because in their minds, "the uniformed public can't be
trusted".
Want a public vote on hate crimes legislation? It'll never happen. How about animal rights? Nope. Anything that's controversial -- ie, the very things that SHOULD go to a vote of the people -- will be left to our elitist, out-of-touch legislators.
Want a public vote on hate crimes legislation? It'll never happen. How about animal rights? Nope. Anything that's controversial -- ie, the very things that SHOULD go to a vote of the people -- will be left to our elitist, out-of-touch legislators.
Jason | 8:13 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Lets be clear, this was NOT a vote for the children, this was a vote for the NEA
and UEA and they do not care about children, they care about power and money.
Status quo | 8:14 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Today is a great day for the status quo. The headline on today's paper
should read "business as usual".
Any bets on how long it will be before anti-voucher people are complaining about lack of school funding? As if one more round of funding increases will make all the difference.
Why is it that Utah's population is so afraid of change?
- No new emergency services building.
- "Rocky II" gets elected mayor.
- No to vouchers.
In Utah, change=bad.
I've traveled extensively in the Middle East, and with the exception of Iran and Pakistan, I've never seen a populus so afraid of change.
Any bets on how long it will be before anti-voucher people are complaining about lack of school funding? As if one more round of funding increases will make all the difference.
Why is it that Utah's population is so afraid of change?
- No new emergency services building.
- "Rocky II" gets elected mayor.
- No to vouchers.
In Utah, change=bad.
I've traveled extensively in the Middle East, and with the exception of Iran and Pakistan, I've never seen a populus so afraid of change.
Public Ed. Teacher | 8:13 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
It is too bad that those involved in the Public Education system here in Utah
cannot see the positives associated with vouchers.
What we have is a very liberal union, UEA(NEA) that is very defensive of anyone who may ask for change in their system. It is also too bad that so many teachers follow their direction. This could be compared to "The blind leading the blind".
What we have is a very liberal union, UEA(NEA) that is very defensive of anyone who may ask for change in their system. It is also too bad that so many teachers follow their direction. This could be compared to "The blind leading the blind".
kcatch9 | 8:15 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
I seriously can't believe how many people have come on here and began to
whine because their side did not win. C'mon people.
To those of you that ask how many people that voted actually read the bill, my guess is a whole lot. People that actually vote usually actually do research.
As for those of you who ask why the PTA is siding with the union on this one: I would say that it was probably because the unions saw the same flaws of the law that the PTA did.
I believe that what this referendum really came down to was making it clear to legislators where their priorities should lie: Before we go getting a new toy out of the toy box we need to at least organize the mess we've already got spread all over the floor.
Does this vote mean that vouchers are off the table? Probably not, vouchers can be great if created correctly. We just need to make sure that our public schools are up to par before we re-examine them.
To those of you that ask how many people that voted actually read the bill, my guess is a whole lot. People that actually vote usually actually do research.
As for those of you who ask why the PTA is siding with the union on this one: I would say that it was probably because the unions saw the same flaws of the law that the PTA did.
I believe that what this referendum really came down to was making it clear to legislators where their priorities should lie: Before we go getting a new toy out of the toy box we need to at least organize the mess we've already got spread all over the floor.
Does this vote mean that vouchers are off the table? Probably not, vouchers can be great if created correctly. We just need to make sure that our public schools are up to par before we re-examine them.
Mahershalalhashbaz | 8:16 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
To Gretsky: You can't take people to that level in one step. They will
reject it. You give people a little "scary" freedom, and then they
will demand more. But Utah rejected even the little freedom. They will never
know what greater freedom can do. But my kids will go to private school too
(without a worthless $500 voucher). It's truly the poor who were hurt by
this. But it takes education to understand the whole reason for the voucher
fight. And when 95% of the state are not educated because they graduated from a
system that purposefully witholds knowledge about a free and better government
(like caucuses-you will rarely hear about a caucus in a public school.
That's why it's all teachers that show up and no one else. No wonder
the Democrat party in Utah opposed vouchers. They aren't interested in
freedom (oh, except when it comes to debauchery!)
Wisc. | 8:18 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Go to any one of the colleges and universities across the state and you will
find very many students who have succeeded in public education. Of course there
are problems with it, as there are with any large program, but the solution is
not to pull out and go somewhere else. Vouchers would not help low-income
families attain better educations. The maximum amount paid out on the vouchers
is still not enough for these families to send their children to private school.
Low income families are the ones that really need the help, and this bill
wouldn't benefit them at all. I think that the fact that Utahns voted
against the voucher shows that they care about ALL the students, not just the
few who could actually afford to go to private school after receiving their
voucher. Keep all the money in public schools, people can already choose to
send their kids to public school, don't make the rest of the tax payers pay
for it though.
Re: Kenneth Mason | 8:18 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
The UEA sided the way that they did because the Utah bill did not show any signs
of achieving these goals of lower class sizes and more money. The public, after
reading and studying the bill also saw these flaws.
Non-sequiter | 8:19 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
So, let me see if I've got this straight. The 20th century pretty much
reconfirmed that communistic societies belong on the ash-heap of history. Yet,
a communistic public education system is supposed to work.
Let's just do away with public education, period. Why should tax payers who don't have children in public schools have to subsidize other people's kids' education whether in public or private schools period? I'll educate mine, you educate yours, and if you don't have any kids spend your money however you wish.
Let's just do away with public education, period. Why should tax payers who don't have children in public schools have to subsidize other people's kids' education whether in public or private schools period? I'll educate mine, you educate yours, and if you don't have any kids spend your money however you wish.
XRANGER375 | 8:20 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Although I don't agree that this was an IQ test and Utah failed. I do
believe that Utahns were fooled by a well financed and deceitful union that
always couches its arguments in doing what's best for the children, when
the only thing the teacher unions care about is protecting as many public school
teacher (read dues paying) jobs.
If the unions (UEA & NEA) really cared about what is best for the kids, they would encourage innovations like vouchers & school choice which provide mini-laboratories to try new ideas and which would reward successful experiments, and punish the ideas which don't perform, all of which would provide better education for the kids.
In much the same way the UAW nearly ruined the US automotive industry, US teachers unions will fight to maintain their stranglehold on the education system while continuing to provide a substandard product (see US PISA test scores for 8th & 12th graders) until the people finally realize the problem is with the unions and not with the funding or lack thereof. This was an important vote, and the people inexplicably voted in favor of unions over their children.
If the unions (UEA & NEA) really cared about what is best for the kids, they would encourage innovations like vouchers & school choice which provide mini-laboratories to try new ideas and which would reward successful experiments, and punish the ideas which don't perform, all of which would provide better education for the kids.
In much the same way the UAW nearly ruined the US automotive industry, US teachers unions will fight to maintain their stranglehold on the education system while continuing to provide a substandard product (see US PISA test scores for 8th & 12th graders) until the people finally realize the problem is with the unions and not with the funding or lack thereof. This was an important vote, and the people inexplicably voted in favor of unions over their children.
rsb | 8:19 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Teaching is good in Utah, but despite the wonderful job that the teachers do,
they are not the determining factor in a child's success. I also get tired
of hearing how we are dead last in spending per pupil. If the spending
correlated at all with successful education then we would be last in the nation
in education.
It is obvious that the largest determining factor in a kid's education is the interest that the parent's show in a child's education. In America, we are largely a capitalist nation but in the schooling of our kids we tend to be the most socialist. This forces all children of varied backgrounds into a similar environment, it will help some kids to get educated but it will hinder others.
One thing to note about public schools is that a parent's right to legally determine what a kid learns ends at the school doors. If that is alright with you that is fine but it may be bothersome to others. My point is, now that these vouchers are dead, lets find a way to put our funds to aid the only people who truly help, The parents.
It is obvious that the largest determining factor in a kid's education is the interest that the parent's show in a child's education. In America, we are largely a capitalist nation but in the schooling of our kids we tend to be the most socialist. This forces all children of varied backgrounds into a similar environment, it will help some kids to get educated but it will hinder others.
One thing to note about public schools is that a parent's right to legally determine what a kid learns ends at the school doors. If that is alright with you that is fine but it may be bothersome to others. My point is, now that these vouchers are dead, lets find a way to put our funds to aid the only people who truly help, The parents.
Fa8 | 8:21 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
I have had 2 sons who were not prepared (gpa of 2.3) to go to college when they
graduated from high school and a third son in high school who is not doing any
better. I voted for the vouchers because the system is not working for my
children, my wife voted against it becuse she felt our sons were just lazy and
disinterested. That may be true but how ever you cut the pie it aint working and
there is very little alternatives. The alternative that I was looking for was a
private school that required them to work 4 hours a day for 4 hours a day of
intense instruction.
Again ignorant Utahns... | 8:22 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
Again.. if you don't understand it, vote against it... It is obvious that
our public schools are failing, since Utahns voted against this. I am sure most
didn't even understand it would help our kids... Oh well, let them eat
cake!
BD | 8:21 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007
I love how now it's, "well...they were just uninformed." If you
can't "inform" people w/ $4M then it will never happen. I am
very well educated and as conservative as they come. I studied this bill
thoroughly and was very much against it.
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Utah public schools need help as do all US public schools. The time has come to engage everyone in the solution not just have them forced on teachers from "above." Over the last several years, the control over his or her classroom has been usurped from the individual teacher by the feds, via NCLB, state legislatures, and by state and local boards of education. The only place for them to turn for any help is through collective action and that is the UEA.
People wrongly believe that UEA controls schools in Utah. Wrong. It is the aforementioned groups who have the power to change things. Now that the top down approach has been rejected, let's work together to create changes that will be useful.