Deseret News | Vouchers killed

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Vouchers killed

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Dave Hansen | 1:23 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007

The union was successful this time, but they can't maintain the status quo forever.

Just because Utahns voted against this specific voucher bill does not mean that they do not want school choice. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The fact that 1/3 of voters think the system needs major reform should give the public school system reason to reexamine their priorities. Unfortunately, this is not in the nature of monopolies.

Regardless, I'm confident that one day, the Legislature will create a school choice program that's acceptable to Utahns (despite the misinformation of the unions). And then, we'll finally have an education system that focuses on what's best for the child and not just the self serving interests of the system.

Cort | 1:30 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007

Nobody was holding their breath.

Too bad this just became a battle of the rich versus the poor.

Would Utahns still hate the vouchers if the scholarships were withheld from the rich altogether, rather than being capped at $500?

Stop the name calling! | 1:33 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007

Patrick Byrne is ashamed of Utah? An IQ test and we failed? There has been too much horrible name calling on both sides of this issue. Hopefully soon, calmer heads will prevail and people will start showing respect for one another. We are a community of differing viewpoints, but it's not okay to belittle someone for disagreeing. Unfortunately he doesn't seem to be willing to do any problem-solving that doesn't include him being able to make more money. Public schools a death sentence? Honestly, that's just mean.

Comments continue below

Dr."K" Silvester - Counselor | 3:15 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007

Even with a PhD in Educational Psychology and 41 years of multi-program, multi-disciplinary involvement in the public schools, to include: teacher, counselor, school psychologist, initiator, cordinator, and participant in the "Parent and Child Together program, (a multi-agency, after-school program, writer and presenter of the "TV Talk for Families" instrument (working with the State PTA), grant writer and teacher for Salt Lake District's adult English as an second language grant writer and teacher, developer of the "Adolescent Ethics in Action" and "How the World Works" life/career learning instruments, member of the UEA state teacher's association board of directors, testing with the adult GED program for jail, prison, and alcoholic recovery center participants, admistrator of the Morris Airlines field trips for parents, student, and educators to Seatle, Portland, San Diago, L.A., Denver,& Pheonix, teaching college level parenting and family relations classes working on state and local curriculum commities-- improving the learning experiences of students in the public schools is my professional and parental "choice".

Attention: Lonsberry | 3:28 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007

"I am opposed to free education as much as I am opposed to taking property from one man and giving it to another...would I encourage free schools by taxation? No! (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 18:357)

The end does not justify the means, whatever the argument is for a well educated public. Use taxes should be used to fund education.

As a Mormon with kids I should respect the property rights of others. I will educate my kids without becoming a education welfare bum. If one refuses to pay the property tax, their home is STOLEN from them. So much for owning property or having property rights in Amerika. There should be shame involved when a predominate group thinks it can vote their way into their brother's pocket.

Russell Reeve | 4:30 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007

I am surprised to see the PTA throwing their lots in with the unions. Isn't the purpose of the PTA to improve education for the children? Or is it to protect big-money interests? Apparently the latter.

This vote will hurt school choice programs nationwide for years. The winners: Union leaders, school administrators, and college professors in colleges of education. The losers: Children, teachers, and taxpayers.

Kenneth Mason | 4:34 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007

Can someone give a rational explanation for why the UEA, which supposedly wants smaller class sizes and more money per student, spent millions of dollars to make sure we do not have smaller class sizes and more money per student? I hate to think it gets reduced to possibly reduced union dues.

SB | 4:40 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007

I have never seen a State Government that is so out of touch with the voice of the people. When the state had a huge surplus two years ago, a poll was taken, that asked the people what should be done with the extra money. #1 response, tax cuts, #2 response improve public schools. The last response was use the money for roads. So what does the State Government do? They give the largest portion to UTA----? So every time you see the Utah State Animal (i.e. the orange cones) remember, they have to justify their huge budget, and tear up roads that seem to be perfectly fine. I am an loyal Republican, have never in my life voted Democrat. Now I will be thinking hard about voting for a Government that does not listen to the people. Wake up Utah Legislature! Fix public schools, and give tax credits to those who take their kids to private schools.

Bob G | 4:41 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007

The issue is not dead yet and we still have the opportunity to bring it to vote again. The polls were a shambles this year and many voters did not vote because they were turned away by long and time consuming lines. Then there is still the doubt of the accuracy of the electronic voting machines that can easily be corrupted. The state education system should be looking at this as a wake up call about the quality of education in Utah. Although a victory is being claimed the nuubers should be telling the Utah education system a sad tale about the education in Utah. Parents want their children to get a fair education and Utahs public education system lacks the ability to provide what they collect taxes for. The issue can still be brought to light and revoted on again. Utah public education is very bad and a disgrace to Utah. The systems own reports have proven that education is Utah is not as it should be and how poor a job they have done.

Deon Turley | 4:58 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007

The message to the legislature is this: take seriously your responsibility to adequately fund a quality public school system that the state can be proud of! Offering families incentives to go elsewhere would have been an advertisement for a failing system and would have exacerbated the problem.

Voice of The People | 5:07 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007

I hope this sends a message to the Legislature, from vouchers to soccer stadiums they should represent the people instead of special interests. We can and should use our votes to remove from office those who don't truly represent us.

Georgia resident | 5:13 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007

I live in one of the worst-- violent and drug infested school districts in the nation in Georgia. Here we do not even have a choice to drive our kids to a different public school form the one that we live by. I can not afford private school and I was hoping that a voucher law in utah would set an example for the rest of the country to follow. i am very dissapointed. on day as the schools get worse in utah, utah residents will realize how much this vote has hurt their children.

Great Victory | 5:28 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007

As it has been said a thousand times. You have school choice. Open Enrollment, and private schools are in place to offer you a choice. I just dont want to pay for your choice. If you want to send kids to private school, fine, but you pay for it. The people have spoken and said Utah wants the best education for all of its children just not the rich and those along the Wasatch front.

Satisfied | 5:45 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007

I hope the legislators will listen to the people now. We love education and we want our taxes to go to all children. Let's work to improve the current system, but let's acknowledge that our system is working. Congratulations to the teachers who are hardworking and teach our students. Thank you to the many citizens who voted with the needs of all students in mind.

Conejo | 5:48 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007

If we can't get rid of the soup with the dead fly in it, lets spend more money putting in spices so we can feel better about not tasting the fly. Also, don't cry when the "Elite" who send their kids to private school get the dream job your public school kid always wanted.

Skippy | 5:49 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007

"Just because Utahns voted against this specific voucher bill does not mean that they do not want school choice."
Uh, actually, that's exactly what it means. The vote wasn't even close! If you want to send your kid to a private school, fine. But don't expect tax payers to pony up the money for it.
What the vote meant was that if you don't think public roads are good enough, you'll have to pay for your own. The same is true with education.And as for Patrick Byrne, he needs to learn that sometimes he can be just plain wrong. Pouting after losing just looks petty.

California Andy | 5:58 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007

Utah's voucher initiative was followed with interest here in California where the union teachers have become so involved with PC loaded issues the children are not learning good old reading writing and aritmetic to prepare them for a useful life. My family members were once public school advocates. No more. We have our grandchildren in private schools, vouchers or no, where they are able to learn needed subjects. Just a casual observation of them with their public school playmates will show the private school children to be vastly better educated. While my impression of Utah school teachers is that they are not imbedded with as much PC baloney as their California counterparts, you Utah parents will eventually come to regret your vote against school vouchers. The socialists want absolute control over your children's education. Why do you think there was so much money poured into defeating your voucher initiative? Altruism was not an issue.

John Jacob | 6:16 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007

"I don't buy that. When you run the ball down to the 2-yard line you don't get four points for it ï¿½ (the loss) is shameful," Byrne said

4 points? What sport is this guy playing?

Belittling for disagreeing? | 6:16 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007

Wow, that was pretty good. In one breath we say, "... it's not okay to belittle someone for disagreeing." In the very next breath we get, "...he doesn't seem to be willing to do any problem-solving that doesn't include him being able to make more money." That sounds an awful lot like "belittling for disagreeing" to me.

I don't agree with the "death sentence" comment either, however I do wonder how many of Utahns on both side of the issue actually read the language of the bill in question. Or even knew that it wasn't HB 148 that would have been implemented with a yes vote, but HB 174?

Jeanne | 6:18 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007

It seems that Utah, though failing its IQ test, is smart enough not to allow some out-of-state millionaire to dictate to us how our school system should be run. It is amazing to me that Patrick Byrne thinks he can move in from New Hampshire, buy up our politicians, and impose his will on us. We know that Utah was "picked" by Byrne and certain political groups as a place where the referendum would pass...guess they got it all wrong! Public education will succeed with the support of the people of Utah.

Are you serious? | 6:18 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007

The spokesperson for the anti group said "I think it shows that Utah voters care about all Utah children and they care about putting all the resources we have in the state in public schools where they can be available for all children..."

I think Utahns agreeing to continue pouring money down a rat hole shows how LITTLE Utahns care about children. Government schools, not public schools, Gorvernment schools have proven for years and years and billions of dollars later that what they really care most about in one thing...money for the teachers union and school administration. If the money "going to education" was actually going to EDUCATION, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

But then why do I care? I can afford to send my kids to privately run schools without the vouchers.

But I do care. And Utahns should be really proud of their business as usual M.O. They'll pay the price in the long run...but then no one cares about the long run. It's about now. Enjoy.

Dave | 6:20 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007

There was a lot of talk of the union money. What about the money that came from Minnisota? If the voucher bill was so great, why didn't Minnisota pass the bill themselves?

Gretzky | 6:22 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007

I voted against the voucher bill not because i don't believe there is a place for vouchers but because the bill was so poorly thought out and worded. it will NOT reduce class size as the Guv lied in his pro-voucher ads. class size will have to be legislated like it is in California. The voucher program also needs to have the ability for me to take my FULL education dollars and fully leave the public system with penalties for changing my mind before a set amount of time such as two years or one year etc. that means i want the $1700 or dollars in property taxes i pay toward my school district plus the money earmarked by the general fund so i can be FULLY INVESTED in a private school if i were to choose that route.

Votes for sale | 6:25 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007

Now that one outside group has been successful in influencing Utah politics, it will be interesting to see what other special interests pour money into this state in support of their agenda.

Bruno Behrend | 6:28 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007

The pro-voucher people lost for 2 reasons. First, school choice advocates keep promoting watered-down voucher plans that don't allow the FULL DOLLAR AMOUNT to follow the child. They alway provide sops to the bureaucracy.

Second, school choice advocates fail because they are to cowardly to aggressively point out the waste, fraud, and abuse in virtually every aspect of public education.

As an Illinois resident, I'm sure Utah Public Ed. is not as corrupt as our state, but an intellectually honest review of public education in America would lead any rational person to realize that any education system that focuses on building payroll, bureaucracy, and political clout over educating children is corrupt by nature.

Fund Children, not Districts and Bureaucracies.

Don Catmull | 6:33 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007

Now the UEA can relax. Back to the familiar worn out phrases; "Invest in the students, teachers, schools, blah blah blah..." Money Money Money. Show us results for our money.
When given a choice between smaller classrooms, with a more effective learning environment, and power the UEA chose power.
Only in the last days of the campaign did the voucher group make an effort to teach the public that the vouchers were means tested and not just a subsidy for the rich. Clearly the average person never felt like they could benefit from the vouchers.
When the public understands how badly they are being served by public education system and how little education students are getting, the vouchers will come back.

Sam Hofer | 6:34 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007

It's a great day for Utah and public education.

Momof5 | 6:35 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007

I voted no only because I wasn't totally convinced the bill would guarantee quality education/teachers for all.
Having choice in how our children are educated is a good thing -- making sure that would be the best education is the difficult part.
I hope the legislature will not run from that challenge, but will involve both sides of this elections debate in coming up with an even better solution.

Marilee Wing | 6:35 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007

What could happen if the money and energy spent on both sides of this issue was put to use to help the public school system? Why should public schools be abandoned when they could be improved?

dyc | 6:40 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007

I'm not a member of the UTEA, but I am an educator. The problem I had with this referendum was the inequity. ALL children in Utah deserve a good education and not just those who live along the Wasatch Front and its metropolitan areas. ALL children deserve to know that a private school will take them, even if they have special needs. This referendum did not provide that. It rightfully deserved to go down. Whatever happens in the future, I hope the focus will be on providing quality education for ALL children.

Anon | 6:43 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007

Looks like the "status quo" for Utah schools...what a shame.

Justin | 6:49 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007

An example of mobocracy by the uninformed public. Congratulations school district bureaucrats--the communist school system remains intact!

sterling | 6:50 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007

There is, and always has been a choice. Parents have just as much choice today as they would have if the vouchers had passed. That's why Utahns didn't vote for vouchers.
Noone disagrees that private schools provide a better and more tailored education, but public education in Utah is a pretty good way to go too.
We Utahns always have a choice. We aren't victims, and we don't need handouts. Everybody that wants an education is getting an education. The end.

Thanks Utah! | 6:50 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007

Thanks for killing the chance I had for choice. I would have qualified for the maximum for my two children in elementary to try a smaller environment in the classroom. But, now thanks to you I can continue my second rate education with no real options. That was great!

What does the GOP not understand | 6:54 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007

Curtis said he does not believe that the GOP legislative majority was out of step with rank-and-file Republicans across the state.
Mr Curtis you may have just have to understand that Utah is no longer the Rank and file republicans.

Thank the Creater.

Marc | 6:55 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007

I just think it was a shame that this vote came during a municipal election year. The vote might have been closer had the governor and other state representatives would have been up for election. Voting locations were inconvenient drive to and very cramped here in West Valley. Waiting outside in the cold just to get into a little room at the local library was annoying and required more dedication than normal just to vote. I think local election management might have hurt overall turnout as it discouraged some voters from either voting or staying in line to vote.

Better use of $$$??? | 6:56 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007

I can't believe that all the money that has been spent advertising the voucher war couldn't have been spent in a better way. Could Mr. Byrne and others have paid for the vouchers themselves with all the money spent on advertising? Could a school have been built in Lehi or elsewhere? Private school scholarships granted? Could teacher training have been increased? Books purchased? I am disgusted.

Public Education | 6:58 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007

Hallelujiah! Nothing could have been worse as a remedy for fixing the states education problems.

Debbie | 6:58 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007

It seems in Utah we want choice and support it in health care and other areas but we won't support choice in education. Problems with it? Of course. More money than the vouchers would have provided should travel with the child who may need a different education than the "one size fits all" we currently try to push them into and yes, the poor do not have any other alternative now - still. But, it was a beginning - a recognition that the system is failing. It is unfortunate that we couldn't even begin. Now, the public schools have no reason to improve or to try to better meet the needs of the individual child. With a 300% increase in autistic spectrum disorders, what is public school going to do to help these children? At this point, most of them are falling through cracks, totally ignored, or forced into home school because the system doesn't know what to do with them and large class sizes don't allow them to help the child who needs it. We are afraid of single-payer universal health care because it's "socialistic" but what is this? Hooray for the average! They again are the winners.

BP | 7:01 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007

Don't think that unions were the deciding factor, there was enough information that parents were able to study the issues and make up their own minds. There was plenty of money and false advertising on the pro side of the issue. Utah proportionally has the highest percentage of college graduates and this vote shows that the legislature can be out of touch on some issues.

Sad Parent | 7:04 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007

Well the fear mongers won. Big shock. Now my children are stuck in a system where I have to pull them out occasionally to home school, if they get a bad teacher and the public school monopoly won't change the teacher or fire someone who isn't competent to teach a child. I teach children at a preschool, and I know that a little love and approval goes a long way with a child. Sadly, half the teachers I and my children have been subjected to by the monopoly can't seem to manage this small thing. We have had very good ones too, whom I would love to see paid well and recognized, and in a competitive environment they would be, but mediocrity is rewarded in the current system.
The UEA tactic seems to be, scare enough people and they wont notice that you have no argument or facts to support your point of view, and they will vote the way you want too. I wish people would think for themselves. Patrick Byrne, thank you for supporting something you believed in and donating until it hurt, for the children of Utah. You have my respect.

Paul Venturella | 7:06 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007

Why do so many voucher supports believe those of us that voted against this were confused by the union?
We looked at the issue, say it differently than they did and voted that way. We now need to follow us and be prepared to vote out of office any member of the legisature that tries to push their personal view and goes against the clear wishes of the people.

Schools have both fixed and variable costs. I'll bet the fixed costs are greater than the variable. Removing students from a school (and the associated funding, some now and all in 5 years) does nothing to reduce the fixed costs. They do not go away when the students do. I have never heard a voucher supported address this most important question.

Those elected by the public be warned...the people have spoken....and we were not fooled or confused by the union...we don't support vouchers! We are smart enough to make our own decision....and we did.

QOTU | 7:08 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007

Does Greg Curtis really think the voucher law reflected the views of rank and file Republicans? The vote was 62% to 38%! Apparently, then, there are more Democrats in Utah than he supposed? Don't think so! As to Patrick Byrne's "IQ test" statement -- it looks like the state of Utah took an IQ test and passed. Contrary to what Byne said, I think Utahns actually DO care about kids. Now it's time to put some money, time, and energy into where they belong: public schools.

To Kenneth | 7:13 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007

Because the voucher would have done none of the things that you said. Class sizes would not be reduced and there would NOT be more money per student. Obviously as last night's vote indicates most people in Utah are in support of public schools. They are NOT perfect but diverting money to private schools is NOT the answer.

Pathetic! | 7:13 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007

I am very disappointed the school voucher program did not pass. To me, school vouchers represent a choice for parents. I, as a parent, should be able to choose whether or not I want my child to go to public school or use a voucher and pay additional tuition for my child to go to private school. The choice should be mine as a parent to make, not someone else's choice, namely the Union. It's about me and my husband HAVING A CHOICE to do what we feel is best for our children. Why should someone else get to decide? I pay taxes too, believe me plenty of them! The choice should be up to the parents and no one else!!

Our government | 7:14 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007

We have too many communist freaks in control.

David Stanley | 7:14 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007

What a disappointment. This bill was a win-win proposition that put parents in control and gave extra help to the school system. I hope it doesn't take another decade to pass another win-win educational reform bill.

Teacher | 7:17 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007

I think if Utahans want to better thier school system then they should look into being willing to pay for it with tax dollars. Most of the good teachers in the nation are unwilling to even look at Utah as a place to teach becasue no one can make a living on $25,000 a year. I can't so I moved to another state where I get payed twice as much to. Utah should feel ashamed about how they treat their teachers and their students.

DougS | 7:22 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007

Did anyone think it odd that many of the voters determining the future of public schools were sent to vote at--you guessed it--public schools? :-)

Seriously, maybe the legislature can finally do what they probably should have done in the first place--give a property tax exemption to parents who place their kids in private school. Let the parents keep their own money to educate their kids, but don't give them an additional handout.

nottyou | 7:22 a.m. Nov. 7, 2007

Ah, gee...I don't like or use the public transportation system so I'd like a voucher to pursue private transportation...$3,000 would do nicely.

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