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Are small districts better?
72 comments | Read story
Tiny | 5:59 a.m. Nov. 5, 2007
I think smaller districts would be better. Cause I think the Granite District is
overwhelmed with everything. That's why nothing has changed here, no matter
what a parent writes or tells them.
Anonymous | 6:40 a.m. Nov. 5, 2007
Give me an example of the type of community issues that a smaller district might
be more responsive to.
Ed | 6:48 a.m. Nov. 5, 2007
I am amazed at how many people want to have their own little kingdoms. Why not
do take this approach: Increase the number of JSD board members....so that
those needs that need to be addressed are doing so? This district split is just
going to mean that we are going to have to come up with $144 million dollars to
do in 3 districts what is currently done in 1??? I know that the JSD school
board is notoriously infamous for not listening to their constituents but for
goodness sake...VOTE THEM OUT and vote in a new board and increase the number of
members.
Comments continue below
Anonymous | 7:07 a.m. Nov. 5, 2007
In Utah there are not a lot of 1-a schools because it does not seem like every
small town has a high school honeyville, bothwell, syracause west point
don't seem like they have high schools.
Contrast that to Idaho were Murtaugh, Hansen, Kimberly, Dietrich, Richfield, Shoshone, Carey and several small towns near boise have high schools.
moves to consolidate them have been fought hard. In minidoka county they succeeded in consolidating the district in the 1950's to one school and I heard it hurt the communities that lost there High schools. School is in middle of nowere too.
Towns are close but there are people that travel 20 miles to go to school as well.
Contrast that to Idaho were Murtaugh, Hansen, Kimberly, Dietrich, Richfield, Shoshone, Carey and several small towns near boise have high schools.
moves to consolidate them have been fought hard. In minidoka county they succeeded in consolidating the district in the 1950's to one school and I heard it hurt the communities that lost there High schools. School is in middle of nowere too.
Towns are close but there are people that travel 20 miles to go to school as well.
worried | 7:14 a.m. Nov. 5, 2007
If we split off from Jordan District, how much will it cost to rebuild much of
the infrastructure already in place? Won't we still have the same class
sizes as we do plan on keeping all of our kids on the east side? Are we
positive that special programs and services will not be cut? Won't we
still be responsible to re-build and renovate all of these existing buildings
that we are complaining about? How long will of this take?
I'm voting no.
I'm voting no.
Smaller isn't necessarily better | 7:29 a.m. Nov. 5, 2007
There are plenty of benefits for a large district. Resources are easier to come
by and the administrative costs are minimal when compared to that of a smaller
district. A new district will need new facilities and infrastructure...I guess
the new district could use Cottonwood High School
due the math | 7:40 a.m. Nov. 5, 2007
are you willing to pay the millions it will take to get a smaller school
district. New districts will have to start from scratch. you will have to pay
through the nose. there has got to be a better way to settour problemsled . i
am concerned that my eastside neighbors are not educated enough about what lies
ahead for us if we split.
Concerns | 7:45 a.m. Nov. 5, 2007
I'm still not sure why Mayor Cullimore thinks a smaller districts equals
smaller class sizes. You can certainly have smaller class sizes at the expense
of something else. And a smaller school does not mean smaller class sizes.
Class sizes across Jordan District are all the same. I live in Draper and I
fear that our growing needs will not be met, especially when cities like
Cottonwood Heights are losing students. New schools should be built in Draper,
but won't be because Cottonwood Heights won't be willing to close any
of their schools. Even in a smaller district, my individual city's needs
will not be met. I will vote no and stay with a district that I know is tried
and true. I am not willing to risk my student's educational future on
something that needs more discussion and fairer legislation.
Anonymous | 7:58 a.m. Nov. 5, 2007
No great revelation but your math does not work.
"The new east district would have about 33,500 students � a far cry from the some 80,000 in Jordan District now � and become Utah's fifth-largest. A West Jordan District would have about 21,000 students.
Remaining Jordan District � consisting of Bluffdale, Herriman, Riverton, South Jordan and unincorporated west-side communities � would have about 25,000 students."
Will the new district have 21,000 or 25,000? And if the the new East district has 35,000 wouldn't it be 80,000-35,000=45,000?
I think small districts are going to be more responsive but does that translate to better schools?
"The new east district would have about 33,500 students � a far cry from the some 80,000 in Jordan District now � and become Utah's fifth-largest. A West Jordan District would have about 21,000 students.
Remaining Jordan District � consisting of Bluffdale, Herriman, Riverton, South Jordan and unincorporated west-side communities � would have about 25,000 students."
Will the new district have 21,000 or 25,000? And if the the new East district has 35,000 wouldn't it be 80,000-35,000=45,000?
I think small districts are going to be more responsive but does that translate to better schools?
Anonymous | 8:00 a.m. Nov. 5, 2007
Every public school should be structured like public charter schools are.
They are each considered individual districts, just as accountable to the office of education, but more importantly accountable to the parents.
If a teacher isn't teaching they are let go immediately, the students year of education is not sacrificed the adult that is not performing is held accountable.
If the teacher is performing they are often given a bonus.
Parents have access to the governing board on a regular basis, most are parents of students attending the school or successful members of the community.
The point is, when a need arises the board can respond quickly.
They are each considered individual districts, just as accountable to the office of education, but more importantly accountable to the parents.
If a teacher isn't teaching they are let go immediately, the students year of education is not sacrificed the adult that is not performing is held accountable.
If the teacher is performing they are often given a bonus.
Parents have access to the governing board on a regular basis, most are parents of students attending the school or successful members of the community.
The point is, when a need arises the board can respond quickly.
SU | 8:03 a.m. Nov. 5, 2007
The funding for our schools is always so top-heavy. With each district, the
largest portions of money go to the salaries of the district leaders then starts
to trickle down from there where it finally reaches our teachers and in the end,
our children. No matter how large or small a district is, there are only so
many buildings and so many classrooms. Having larger districts should translate
into more money for the bottom line with is our kids. Parents need to be more
involved and their input more respected by those high paid top district leaders.
Each school should have the right to have the flavor that the parents decide
they want, not the district. It is throwing needed money away to start thinking
that we need to run around and start cutting up our districts into smaller
chunks. I have been an involved parent in one of the largest districts in Utah.
Our school runs very well, the way we parents, who are involved, think it
should. If you don't like how things are going, you need to join some
committees and start voicing your opinion. Stop thinking that you can just pay
to make a difference.
Lynne | 8:04 a.m. Nov. 5, 2007
I'm not against a split but I am against a split at this time. This has
been a knee jerk reaction and a decision to split is a permanent decision. There
is not enough information available at this time. Let's vote "no"
for now to any split and do our homework. Our children deserve better but
let's find the best way to give it to them.
Anonymous | 8:10 a.m. Nov. 5, 2007
I agree with anonymous, one point they left out that has to be understood about
charter schools is...
Charter Schools SAVE a ton of money because their governing board serves the school for free. There is no waste in district level administration cost. All the money goes to the school and into it's classroom!
Charter Schools SAVE a ton of money because their governing board serves the school for free. There is no waste in district level administration cost. All the money goes to the school and into it's classroom!
Missing the point | 8:26 a.m. Nov. 5, 2007
I love the veil of "smaller more responsive district." Lets be
honest. The real reason is that the West Side is a drain on the resources of
the East Side for schools, taxes, and just about everything. So the wealthier
East Side wants to break away to reap the benefits. Logical. Anyone that
doesn't know that there is a massive difference in schools on the Eastern
Bench and on the West Side is oblivious.
BTW, I grew up in Utah, went to East Side schools and have since left the state. Our educational system needs revamping and it significantly lacks every state that I have lived in since (MA, CA, CO, IL). I currently live in Los Altos, CA; a northern California "Silicon Valley" area which has the Los Altos school district. A TINY school district, but among the best in the state. Again a few factors dominate: wealth and a dedication by the community and parents to education. Both missing on the West Side.
BTW, I grew up in Utah, went to East Side schools and have since left the state. Our educational system needs revamping and it significantly lacks every state that I have lived in since (MA, CA, CO, IL). I currently live in Los Altos, CA; a northern California "Silicon Valley" area which has the Los Altos school district. A TINY school district, but among the best in the state. Again a few factors dominate: wealth and a dedication by the community and parents to education. Both missing on the West Side.
Dellory Matthews | 8:34 a.m. Nov. 5, 2007
Adding more administration per student will waste a lot of money. School
districts should not be split at this time. First, solve the problem of
underfunding.
One way to improve Utah's public schools is to model them after a more successful state, such as Wyoming. How can Utah generate more revenue? How can class sizes be reduced and teacher pay improved? Those are the issues that must be addressed and splitting districts would be a deterrent to that goal.
One way to improve Utah's public schools is to model them after a more successful state, such as Wyoming. How can Utah generate more revenue? How can class sizes be reduced and teacher pay improved? Those are the issues that must be addressed and splitting districts would be a deterrent to that goal.
Responsive? | 8:39 a.m. Nov. 5, 2007
Who says a smaller district will be responsive? A new school board may have
just as many politics and one city more represented than another. People are
expecting some things that may or may not happen.
L | 8:50 a.m. Nov. 5, 2007
As I have said before, I am not a resident of the school district and I have no
problem if the residents of the district want to make a split.
I do have a problem with the concept that only part of the people involved get to vote on whether or not to make that split.
I think it creates a bad example of government for the children (throughout the State) especially when the possibility of taxation is involved. It seems to me that I was taught "taxation without representation" was wrong, but as a outsider it looks to me that the "east siders" will be voting to increase taxes on the "west side" and the "west side" has no say in what will be done to them. Shame on the Utah State Legislature!
Maybe the decision would be a little different if the vote was to start a "NEW" district & the "EXISTING" district gets to keep all the resources that it presently has from texbooks, libraries, computers, school busses etc. At least you wouldn't have to paint a new name on the busses that way(satire?).
To me, it doesn't look like a wise decision at present-Vote NO
I do have a problem with the concept that only part of the people involved get to vote on whether or not to make that split.
I think it creates a bad example of government for the children (throughout the State) especially when the possibility of taxation is involved. It seems to me that I was taught "taxation without representation" was wrong, but as a outsider it looks to me that the "east siders" will be voting to increase taxes on the "west side" and the "west side" has no say in what will be done to them. Shame on the Utah State Legislature!
Maybe the decision would be a little different if the vote was to start a "NEW" district & the "EXISTING" district gets to keep all the resources that it presently has from texbooks, libraries, computers, school busses etc. At least you wouldn't have to paint a new name on the busses that way(satire?).
To me, it doesn't look like a wise decision at present-Vote NO
Community Services in Smaller D | 8:50 a.m. Nov. 5, 2007
Schools might actually be willing participants in community activities - plays
(not school produced) and arts, community gathering places, etc.
How about dealing with local traffic/other issues in HS neighborhoods rather than the "it's off my property, so I don't care" attitude of many JSD High School principals. Murry District even goes so far as to share maintenance and public works type costs/overhead with the city - saving money.
In short a more focused district will be willing to join in and be an integral part of the community rather than simply a place all the kids go for 8 hours on a school day.
How about dealing with local traffic/other issues in HS neighborhoods rather than the "it's off my property, so I don't care" attitude of many JSD High School principals. Murry District even goes so far as to share maintenance and public works type costs/overhead with the city - saving money.
In short a more focused district will be willing to join in and be an integral part of the community rather than simply a place all the kids go for 8 hours on a school day.
Ed...Can't do that | 8:52 a.m. Nov. 5, 2007
Ed: The number of School Boards members is set by state law to seven (7). That
is why a JSD school board member represents more people than your state senator!
With the 40% growth over the next 10 years, the number of citizens each
representative will represent will increase as well. The ONLY way to bring
representation closer to home is to create new/smaller districts.
Dear worried | 8:58 a.m. Nov. 5, 2007
No rebuilding of infrastructure - it's already in place. Some will likely
need to be spent for new administrative offices (on the west side) and things
like that, however those decisions will ultimately be up to the new board. The
current admin office could use a major facelift, so getting a new one on the
west-side could be viewed as a bonus.
Initially class sizes won't change - who knows in ten years.
Services won't need to be cut. If the 5th largest district in the state can't support necessary services then the other 35 smaller districts in Utah are sure short-changing their kids, don't you think?
Refurbishing/Rebuilding buildings is a core issue for many. It simply is NOT happening with the status quo. If a new district is created, the O&M tax funds paid in the new district will automatically go to handle these needs. Right now those funds paid by the east side go to cover cost-overruns on west-side construction. It's over $18,000,000 a year. Doing it ourselves will certainly take LESS time that putting it off a minimum of 10 years for JDS to do it.
Remember Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt are all the opposition offers.
Initially class sizes won't change - who knows in ten years.
Services won't need to be cut. If the 5th largest district in the state can't support necessary services then the other 35 smaller districts in Utah are sure short-changing their kids, don't you think?
Refurbishing/Rebuilding buildings is a core issue for many. It simply is NOT happening with the status quo. If a new district is created, the O&M tax funds paid in the new district will automatically go to handle these needs. Right now those funds paid by the east side go to cover cost-overruns on west-side construction. It's over $18,000,000 a year. Doing it ourselves will certainly take LESS time that putting it off a minimum of 10 years for JDS to do it.
Remember Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt are all the opposition offers.
Bigger isn't better | 9:01 a.m. Nov. 5, 2007
"Smaller isn't neccisarily better" completly misses the point on
admin costs.
Jordan had the HIGHEST admin cost per student in the State followed closely by Granite (2nd largest).
Smaller districts in Utah have smaller administrative costs per student. These are hard facts.
Jordan had the HIGHEST admin cost per student in the State followed closely by Granite (2nd largest).
Smaller districts in Utah have smaller administrative costs per student. These are hard facts.
Concerned | 9:05 a.m. Nov. 5, 2007
Yesterday,I was pleased to read in you opinion section that it was in the best
interest of the voters to vote NO on the Jordan District split. The reasoning
was valid and I was impressed the the Deseret News would take a stand defending
that position. What happened overnight? Why did your front-page article not
ask the question "How will a smaller school district affect the residents
on the West side of the valley." Have we forgotten that we are a community
and it is in the community's best interest to provide a quality education
for all students? Jordan District is one of the best districts in the nation
providing quality education for 80,000 students. This proposal is strictly
based on power--not what is best for students. I would love to see an article
tomorrow on the front page defending "Your Opinion" that a District
split is not in the best interest of the children in Salt Lake County.
Dear Lynne | 9:06 a.m. Nov. 5, 2007
A "knee-jerk" reaction?!?!
Boy, this it the first 3-year "knee-jerk" reaction I've ever seen!
This process started grass roots and has been over 3 years in the making. Much study, homework, etc has been done and the time is ripe.
Vote "YES" to create a New School District and see your voice in education increase.
Boy, this it the first 3-year "knee-jerk" reaction I've ever seen!
This process started grass roots and has been over 3 years in the making. Much study, homework, etc has been done and the time is ripe.
Vote "YES" to create a New School District and see your voice in education increase.
Yes, Responsive! | 9:12 a.m. Nov. 5, 2007
"Who says a smaller district will be responsive?"
Just about everybody - including the founding fathers - "The goverment closest to the people goveer best" - the foundation for the state's rights vs. federal rights issue.
Examples: Would you say we can handle state issues better than Washington? You city is much better at handling local issues than SL County - if it were not so why would anyone [Herriman, Taylorsville, Holldady, Cottonwood Heights etc.) incorporate?
Just about everybody - including the founding fathers - "The goverment closest to the people goveer best" - the foundation for the state's rights vs. federal rights issue.
Examples: Would you say we can handle state issues better than Washington? You city is much better at handling local issues than SL County - if it were not so why would anyone [Herriman, Taylorsville, Holldady, Cottonwood Heights etc.) incorporate?
L issues... | 9:18 a.m. Nov. 5, 2007
The issue is NOT "Splitting" a district, but rather as you say
CREATING a new one. As such only those who are affected by the new taxing
entity have a right to vote. It is a perfect example for a civics class and
demonstrate how self-governance is perhaps the primary freedome we enjoy.
To suggest that those creating a new district have no claim on the assets currently serving their neighborhoods is ludicrous! The east side has paid for 57% of EVERYTHING in the JSD and you would suggest they now need to do it again?!? Your argument is solely contrived to support a warped paradigm.
I'm voting "YES" with enthusiasm! Local Control ROCKS!
To suggest that those creating a new district have no claim on the assets currently serving their neighborhoods is ludicrous! The east side has paid for 57% of EVERYTHING in the JSD and you would suggest they now need to do it again?!? Your argument is solely contrived to support a warped paradigm.
I'm voting "YES" with enthusiasm! Local Control ROCKS!
Representation Closer to Home? | 9:22 a.m. Nov. 5, 2007
The ONLY way to bring representation closer to home if for parents to get more
involved in their schools. Representation has nothing to do with how large the
school district is. Smaller is not necessary better. Sometimes it's just
smaller.
Please! | 9:23 a.m. Nov. 5, 2007
Fear, uncertainly and doubt are great reasons to vote no on this. Thanks for
reminding me.
VOTE NO! | 9:25 a.m. Nov. 5, 2007
Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt were good enough reasons for the Deseret Morning
News, the Salt Lake Tribune, and KSL TV to oppose the district split.
That's good enough for me.
Michael | 9:33 a.m. Nov. 5, 2007
I agree with "Missing the point". I too, have lived in the Bay Area,
Sunnyvale. Great schools. Money and interested parents make the difference.
I also grew up in a small school in Central California where our district had one high school, one middle school, and 4 elementary scools: small. Well, it was great, and I've had mykids there too. It was both responsive and responsible. When teachers and administrators know that they're going to see parents and kids in the community, at the store, at church, etc, they know they'll be held accountable. Jordan doesn't have that. We don't even know who they are--oh we may know their names, but we really don't know them.
Smaller the better. Smaller = more responsive, more responsible, nothing hidden, and more what the parent want. I don't care what the test scores show, if it's better according the parents, it's better!
I also grew up in a small school in Central California where our district had one high school, one middle school, and 4 elementary scools: small. Well, it was great, and I've had mykids there too. It was both responsive and responsible. When teachers and administrators know that they're going to see parents and kids in the community, at the store, at church, etc, they know they'll be held accountable. Jordan doesn't have that. We don't even know who they are--oh we may know their names, but we really don't know them.
Smaller the better. Smaller = more responsive, more responsible, nothing hidden, and more what the parent want. I don't care what the test scores show, if it's better according the parents, it's better!
Way too big! | 9:36 a.m. Nov. 5, 2007
The choice for me boils down to this: Would I rather be one voice in a sea of
360,000 in JSD or one in 33,5000 in a new, community-based school district. A
district that must juggle the needs of 80,000 students within an area that now
stretches from Alta Ski Resort to the foothills of Herriman? No thanks, I want
to bring decision-making about my own neighborhood schools closer to home.
Also, to all the naysayers: It seems you are just fear-mongering. Many of the concerns have already been addressed. Legislators -- both Republicans and Democrats -- have been talking about the benefits of smaller districts for more than 15 years, feasibility studies have been completed, a dozen cities have voted to support this effort. It also will take a full two years before a new school district starts up, leaving plenty of time to address any remaining concerns or questions. Now is the time to cast a 'YES' vote to create a new school district.
Also, to all the naysayers: It seems you are just fear-mongering. Many of the concerns have already been addressed. Legislators -- both Republicans and Democrats -- have been talking about the benefits of smaller districts for more than 15 years, feasibility studies have been completed, a dozen cities have voted to support this effort. It also will take a full two years before a new school district starts up, leaving plenty of time to address any remaining concerns or questions. Now is the time to cast a 'YES' vote to create a new school district.
Get your facts right | 9:42 a.m. Nov. 5, 2007
Jordan District has the LOWEST admin cost per student in the state, according to
the U.S. Census Bureau. The national average if $655, the Utah average is $378,
and Jordan's is $344. So much for your theory that small districts in Utah
have smaller administrative costs. Even in Utah, where we have the lowest admin
costs in the nation, smaller districts still spend more on admin costs.
To: Missing the Point | 9:46 a.m. Nov. 5, 2007
How is the West side a drain? I live in South Jordan and am surrounded by
plenty of wealth. I think we are handling more than our fair share of taxes
because people by where I live make alot of money. So explain to me how we are
a drain on anybody?! My property taxes are outrageous but I gladly pay them.
Maybe next time you should think before posting?!
Murray an example? | 9:54 a.m. Nov. 5, 2007
If Murray is an example of a successful smaller district, look more closely.
They do some nice things, but they basically function like a stereotypical small
Southern town. "Who you know" is much more important than rules or
procedures. That is the inherent danger of a small district. The Board of
Education is a shill for the district administration because they're all
too cozy with each other and principles give way to personalities.
Steven Jarvis | 9:58 a.m. Nov. 5, 2007
To the Charter School posters,
I wholeheartedly disagree with many of your comments as I come from a Charter School background. Because they are funded differently than a district school, they do not have the resources for the 'frills' of education like playgrounds, libraries and computer labs till after a year or two. While we need more Charter Schools, we need better training for the leadership prior to the school opening, more like a two year rather than one year start-up.
I personally would like to see the Districts chartering more. That would reduce costs and improve training, but I doubt most founders want that. Until either more groups approach districts or the state removes the caps we won't see charters grow at the rate of growth.
The board and leadership also may be prone to more academic experimentation using new curriculum each year losing the continuity of learning that is built into each. Spelling at OCS in its third year, is in its third program.
I wholeheartedly disagree with many of your comments as I come from a Charter School background. Because they are funded differently than a district school, they do not have the resources for the 'frills' of education like playgrounds, libraries and computer labs till after a year or two. While we need more Charter Schools, we need better training for the leadership prior to the school opening, more like a two year rather than one year start-up.
I personally would like to see the Districts chartering more. That would reduce costs and improve training, but I doubt most founders want that. Until either more groups approach districts or the state removes the caps we won't see charters grow at the rate of growth.
The board and leadership also may be prone to more academic experimentation using new curriculum each year losing the continuity of learning that is built into each. Spelling at OCS in its third year, is in its third program.
Democracy? | 9:59 a.m. Nov. 5, 2007
If the vote to split Jordan wins by a slim margin, then we have a situation
where half the people on the east and all the people on the west did not vote to
divide. That will be 3 out of 4 people who did not vote to split. The whole
future of the education of 80,000 students in Southern Salt Lake Valley will be
determined by a vote of 1/4 of the people.
Who came up with this screwy law?
Who came up with this screwy law?
Steven Jarvis | 10:01 a.m. Nov. 5, 2007
Splitting the district is a poor choice. What is being accomplished by it?
Duplication, lost services, and eventual property tax savings.
Well the tax savings are not going to last. The legislature will be shackling the valley or entire state to pay for all the building of new schools out of property taxes so the East side will be paying for the West side for decades to come. They will also be paying for growth in Alpine and Granite as well.
Well the tax savings are not going to last. The legislature will be shackling the valley or entire state to pay for all the building of new schools out of property taxes so the East side will be paying for the West side for decades to come. They will also be paying for growth in Alpine and Granite as well.
L issues reply | 10:15 a.m. Nov. 5, 2007
I guess I didn't make my point clearly. I was not suggesting that the
existing district keep all the resources and the "new" one start all
over. I was merely suggesting that some people's vote would likely be
different.
My point was, that to me, it only seems fair for all people in the district get to vote. All will be effected by the outcome of the vote, not just boundry wise, but tax wise as well.
From those I have talked with, I do not seem to be alone in those feelings that EVERYONE in the JSD get to vote. I'm sorry that idea (which I choose to call democracy) gives you problems!
I think that others even outside the JSD may be effected, but I have not proposed that they should get a vote.
To use a WILD example, suppose you (as a board member) decided to quit your company and start a new company, BUT you wanted to take some of the equipment with you ... don't you think all of the Board members of the company would want to (and have a right to) vote on your idea, or I guess you could just leave.
My point was, that to me, it only seems fair for all people in the district get to vote. All will be effected by the outcome of the vote, not just boundry wise, but tax wise as well.
From those I have talked with, I do not seem to be alone in those feelings that EVERYONE in the JSD get to vote. I'm sorry that idea (which I choose to call democracy) gives you problems!
I think that others even outside the JSD may be effected, but I have not proposed that they should get a vote.
To use a WILD example, suppose you (as a board member) decided to quit your company and start a new company, BUT you wanted to take some of the equipment with you ... don't you think all of the Board members of the company would want to (and have a right to) vote on your idea, or I guess you could just leave.
Facts right... | 10:17 a.m. Nov. 5, 2007
"...administrative overhead grows at a disproportionate rate to student
population. This is supported by reviewing the 2005 Comprehensive Financial
Annual Reports filed by school districts with the State of Utah. Jordan reports
an administrative cost per student of $33, Granite $28, Alpine $18 and Salt Lake
$15."
Sorry, just using data supplied by the STATE rather than the Federal Government - obviously there is a difference in how you count your chickens. Frankly, I'd rather trust the State (who is actually charged with funding State Education) rather than the US Census guys (who have significant problems counting people).
Sorry, just using data supplied by the STATE rather than the Federal Government - obviously there is a difference in how you count your chickens. Frankly, I'd rather trust the State (who is actually charged with funding State Education) rather than the US Census guys (who have significant problems counting people).
Representative Democracy | 10:21 a.m. Nov. 5, 2007
Any effort to reduce a district to bring it closer to the people it serves is a
positive move. Representative democracy is the best form of democracy. Larger
is often too disconnected from constituents.
Jarvis, charter schools are not representative democracies, but rather self appointed individuals that pretend to know how to run a school. They will remain puppet democracies until the charter governance is voted on by the full and complete parent body. This is why they are quasi private.
School districts have a fully elected school board. At least they were elected by the voters.
Jarvis, charter schools are not representative democracies, but rather self appointed individuals that pretend to know how to run a school. They will remain puppet democracies until the charter governance is voted on by the full and complete parent body. This is why they are quasi private.
School districts have a fully elected school board. At least they were elected by the voters.
Stealth | 10:32 a.m. Nov. 5, 2007
I think we should leave things the way they are. But if the East side needs to
be snubby and to themselves, and it is not about the money like they keep
claming. Then fix the equalizatoin?
It is about the money and the snobby!
It is about the money and the snobby!
Don't trust state numbers | 10:41 a.m. Nov. 5, 2007
Trust the state numbers? You're kidding. Are you talking about the same
state education office who just had its accounting guy "resign?"
a random John | 10:43 a.m. Nov. 5, 2007
The fact that not everybody in the current district gets to vote on the matter
is what disturbs me. If the east side splits away that in effect creates two
new districts, but the west side gets no say in the matter? What a joke. I
live on the east side and will be voting no tomorrow simply because the process
is undemocratic. The exclusion of the west side from the decision making
process is absurd.
RE: Representative Democracy | 10:46 a.m. Nov. 5, 2007
I live on the west side of Jordan District and voted my school board member into
office. Now some east-side voters can vote my board member out of office and
force me to re-draw precinct boundaries and re-vote for a new school board
member.
Remember when we lived in a Representative Democracy? Ah, the good ol' days.
Remember when we lived in a Representative Democracy? Ah, the good ol' days.
West Side Drainage | 10:50 a.m. Nov. 5, 2007
The west has plenty of money as one of the "Missing the Point" points
out. However when you consider the aggregate 43% that the west pays towards the
JDS Budget and the 53% of students, 50% of buildings, and other services that
they receive, the effect is a net "drain".
"Democracy?" has some pretty wild assumptions. Why should anyone that will NOT be under the jurisdicatio of a new taxing authority get any vote as to it's creation. "Taxation without Representation" applies to that arguement, not the converse as some here would beleive. It's simple if the new school district will have authority to tax you, you get to vote.
"Democracy?" has some pretty wild assumptions. Why should anyone that will NOT be under the jurisdicatio of a new taxing authority get any vote as to it's creation. "Taxation without Representation" applies to that arguement, not the converse as some here would beleive. It's simple if the new school district will have authority to tax you, you get to vote.
F.U.D. | 10:55 a.m. Nov. 5, 2007
Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt - ascribed to those without any concrete facts to
support a position. In this case the naysayers and fear-mongers. It's
also the basis on which such wonderful activities such as tne Inquisition
happened.
Fear causes much prejudice [should we really let him on "our" plane, or her sit next to my kids?]
Uncertainty furthers fear and is the realm of those with little confidence or vision.
Doubt when conjoined with the other two only feeds on itself and renders nothing positive.
Fear causes much prejudice [should we really let him on "our" plane, or her sit next to my kids?]
Uncertainty furthers fear and is the realm of those with little confidence or vision.
Doubt when conjoined with the other two only feeds on itself and renders nothing positive.
Random John | 11:01 a.m. Nov. 5, 2007
Do you really think those living outside a taxing authority should be in charge
of creating or authorizing it?
Do you feel you should have say in a neighboring cities tax rates?
How about Utah County's tax rate - they've done some interesting things that affect SL County dramatically - should they have gotten our permission first?
This is a CREATION of a NEW school district, not a split of an existing one. "Split" is much more dramatic for the press, but it is a mis-representation of what will occur.
Do you feel you should have say in a neighboring cities tax rates?
How about Utah County's tax rate - they've done some interesting things that affect SL County dramatically - should they have gotten our permission first?
This is a CREATION of a NEW school district, not a split of an existing one. "Split" is much more dramatic for the press, but it is a mis-representation of what will occur.
Pat | 11:43 a.m. Nov. 5, 2007
I agree with several in this blog who say the potential split is not only about
responsiveness but also about money. In addition to the arguments that smaller
districts are more responsive to local needs and encourage more parental
involvement (which I totally accept), I understand the Jordan School District
anticipates a $780 million dollar bond. I also understand that most of that
money would be paid by east side residents and almost all of that money would be
used on the west side, with virtually none being used for critically needed east
side remodeling and renovation - not to mention new schools needed in Draper and
elsewhere on the east side. I don't accept the argument that those living
on the west side built the east side schools, because when those schools were
built, much of the west side was mostly vacant and uninhabited farmland. It
sounds like those living on the west side expect those living on the east side
to pay their way.
Random | 11:54 a.m. Nov. 5, 2007
Random John:
Do you really think those living in Sandy should have the right to vote my school board representative in Riverton out of office?
Do you feel you have the right vote new school district boundaries for me?
You are right about one thing, this is the creation of NEW school districts--at least two in fact. How can you argue that what will be left of Jordan is anything but an entirely new district--new boundaries, new school board members, new assets, new funding structure? Yet residents of only one of the NEW districts get to vote.
Funny, the only ones arguing this is "fair" seem to live east of the Jordan River.
Do you really think those living in Sandy should have the right to vote my school board representative in Riverton out of office?
Do you feel you have the right vote new school district boundaries for me?
You are right about one thing, this is the creation of NEW school districts--at least two in fact. How can you argue that what will be left of Jordan is anything but an entirely new district--new boundaries, new school board members, new assets, new funding structure? Yet residents of only one of the NEW districts get to vote.
Funny, the only ones arguing this is "fair" seem to live east of the Jordan River.
Random John | 12:40 p.m. Nov. 5, 2007
Your Riverton School Board member will serve (and be paid) until the end of
their term (July 15, 2009). Creation of a new district will not change this.
The only thing that will change is he/she will have no authority to operate a
school district for the last two weeks of his/her term.
Anytime any political subdivision is created (service district, city, etc.) boundaries are changed and adjusted. This happens all the time. Sometimes you may like it, obviously in this one you don't.
Only one new district will be created. The remaining district will be changed - however you're free to choose your semantics.
Your other claims of "new" are salient:
There are new (or re-elected) board members at each election cycle.
The phycical assets don't change one whit.
Funding is the same as always - merely redistributed over a more focused and relvant area.
And "YES" I don't think it's fair for my kids to sit sweltering in aging (increasingly unsafe) schools because of yours.
Regardless of the financial impact (I'm more than willing to spend more on my kids when required) the basic concept of self-determination rules the roost in my view.
Anytime any political subdivision is created (service district, city, etc.) boundaries are changed and adjusted. This happens all the time. Sometimes you may like it, obviously in this one you don't.
Only one new district will be created. The remaining district will be changed - however you're free to choose your semantics.
Your other claims of "new" are salient:
There are new (or re-elected) board members at each election cycle.
The phycical assets don't change one whit.
Funding is the same as always - merely redistributed over a more focused and relvant area.
And "YES" I don't think it's fair for my kids to sit sweltering in aging (increasingly unsafe) schools because of yours.
Regardless of the financial impact (I'm more than willing to spend more on my kids when required) the basic concept of self-determination rules the roost in my view.
Tired of JSD | 1:03 p.m. Nov. 5, 2007
There is no way that anyone can refute that East side schools are outdated and
rundown. My middle school did not even have air conditioning. My little
sister's elementary school just had air conditioning installed last year.
The school administration is not responsive to the needs of our community, and it almost seems like parents are not welcomed into the discussion regarding their schools. Schools can be a great asset to the community when they are thought of as community centers. I applaud Murray for allowing shared resources between the city and the school district. Why should tax payers pay for similar resources twice? It doesn't make sense.
I do believe that it is fair that only the East side is allowed to vote. What if everyone in unincorporated SL County was allowed to vote for a new city to be incorporated? The remaining unincorporated areas are affected, but since we have this wonderful concept of self governance, they are not allowed to vote on the matter.
I firmly believe that the new school district will be more efficient, and will better provide for the needs of the students. Please vote YES!
The school administration is not responsive to the needs of our community, and it almost seems like parents are not welcomed into the discussion regarding their schools. Schools can be a great asset to the community when they are thought of as community centers. I applaud Murray for allowing shared resources between the city and the school district. Why should tax payers pay for similar resources twice? It doesn't make sense.
I do believe that it is fair that only the East side is allowed to vote. What if everyone in unincorporated SL County was allowed to vote for a new city to be incorporated? The remaining unincorporated areas are affected, but since we have this wonderful concept of self governance, they are not allowed to vote on the matter.
I firmly believe that the new school district will be more efficient, and will better provide for the needs of the students. Please vote YES!
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