Deseret News | Utah test scores are startling

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Utah test scores are startling

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No Child left behind | 12:34 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007

It's really about that law. This really means no child excels. I elementary school the teachers really did not teach my kids because they scored high. The teacher had my kids help others whose scores were lower. My understanding of how it worked was that the teacher was "graded" on how many scores improved. Since my kids had high scores (4) they could not get higher and so the teacher did not need to work with them. Get rid of NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND.

Juan | 12:37 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007

A few random comments.

What makes you think next week's vote on the Referendum is going to be honest? Who ever controls the software and back door connections to electronic voting machines controls the outcome of elections. Stalin said that he who casts the vote means nothing, it's he who counts the vote that determines everything. A mega-nation such as India or a small nation such as Israel can use paper ballots and local, public computation of votes, but the USA cannot?

Third World countries such as Thailand often have 65 or more students per class and almost always score higher than US schools in literacy.

For LDS: Brigham Young, John Taylor and Wilford Woodruff were totally opposed to government schools(Utah started out with Stake Academies).

More money needed? Does this mean that the teachers are not performing at their best now, but will if we give them $10,000 more a year?

Some of the highest funded schools per pupil in the US are in Wash., D.C.--which has literacy at the bottom and low graduation rates. You don't get what you pay for.

"A" students become professionals & business leaders, "B" students, managers,"C" students teachers with some exceptions.

former Utahn | 12:40 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007

I have to chime in here. Like New Utahn, we found that THE SCHOOLS IN UTAH ARE WAY TOO EASY. We've lived in two other western states since we left Utah, and the differences between them were quickly obvious and, quite frankly, shocking. We loved Utah, but we are so glad we moved. We both have bachelor's degrees and expect our four children to make similar achievements. Utah has a standardized state curriculum, but the standards are set too low, they are not uniformly implemented and there seems to be no accountability. California, on the other hand, has a much more ethnically and economically diverse population which presents a great challenge in many areas and dilutes our averages. BUT the standards are rigorous, and our children are being taught in a challenging, focused and supportive environment. They are learning to think and write, not merely how to read and do calculations. The teachers are getting creative as they seek to teach "to the test" in ways that will not bore them or their students. Assessments are frequent, local administrators are held accountable. If Utah wants its students to compete in the global marketplace, something has got to change.

Comments continue below

to UVSC College Prof | 12:44 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007

The reason that 62% of kids going to UVSC need remedial math classes is that all the kids who know math are at BYU and U of U.

Homeschool | 12:53 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007

Public schools are EVIL! I am never going to let my kids be educated anywhere out of my sight! If the rest of you would obey the commandments as much as we should, and keep our children pure then maybe things would change. I almost don't even trust primary classes anymore; I have to give suprise check ups to make sure they aren't learning things of the world!

UT spends the most money | 12:57 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007

It is amazing how people seem to forget that we in Utah spend the highest portion of our tax money on education compared to any state in the entire country.

It is however because of our lifestyle choice that we also have the most children and therefore more students than any other state. It is for this reason that we will always be the state who spends the lowest amount per student.

The question therefor is how to best spend our money. I have three children in Utah's public education system and because I want to keep them there, I vote FOR the vouchers. Because I believe this is a great way how to give people who want to take their kids out of the public system a chance to do so and thus leave the rest of us with more money per student and smaller class sizes.

I just wish everyone would understand that and not just repeat what ever they hear in the ads.

Read the Report | 1:01 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007

If you bother to read the report linked at the end of the article the researchers indicate the most likely reason for sup par peer performance is Utah's poor per pupil funding. All things considered, we are doing well considering how poorly we fund education in this state.

Matthew | 1:05 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007

Their statistical fudge factors would allow you to get any result you wanted by just adjusting the fudge factors. The problem is that human factors such as income, poverty, parental education, ethnicity, and the overall structure of the society are so dynamic and intertwined that you can't really tease them out like so many sociologists like to try and do. To argue that the low scores for an ethnic group are really connected to the ethnicity got Dr. Watson in big trouble recently. But arguing that the low percentage of minority ethnic groups should make Utah's scores higher goes by without a blink. Utah is a low per capita income state. particulary if you look at the mode. That fact alone explains the low per student funding and the odd scores. It is a more egalitarian society that doesn't really have a peer to compare to in the fifty states. Statistical gymnastics won't change that.

Results of no-vouchers | 1:21 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007

All of this insures that a person who attends a parochial school will surpass any public school kid in all aspects including a successful life.

Rational | 1:21 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007

I find it funny when people place the blame of public education on the teachers. Teachers work so hard and we reward them with the smallest pay of any of our professionals in our society. If parents would just sit down with their kids for 1 hour a night, every single night and help them with their homework then public education would be great. Parents need to do more, not teachers.

re: Jerry | 1:26 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007

You posted this before. I remember asking you if you asked the teacher what their objectives were? Have you yet?

If my daughtes teachers did something like that, I would have asked.

In elementary school math they could have been counting seeds as manipulatives and graphing numbers across the room to see if size and weight determined the number in each pumpkin. Maybe the teacher was teaching senses (smell, touch etc).

An older child's teacher might have been teaching geometric shapes, or they might have been an art teacher.

An uninformed slam at your child's teacher is not really justified or fair.

You seem unhappy with education.

A quick question for all of you parents. I wonder why your students are not in a private school school already?

My daughter was in a prestigous (expensive) Private school in So. California, however we put her in public school here. She Loves Mrs. Davis at Adams Elementary in Kaysville.

If I felt the need though, I would have no problem paying for either of my daughters education, and we're not rich. (Both of us teach public school)

I just wonder why you don't have any communication with your kids teachers.

math quiz at the end | 1:31 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007

To Everyone wants to be rich

You don't understand how public school funding works!
UtahPPfunding/$3000/not$7000
"If "rich" person takes $ 500" It doesn't leave $ 6500
"If "poor" person takes $3000" It doesn't leave $ 4000

Fact:The public schools are paid by the number of students that attend school district beginning of year!

Assumption that leaves more money for public schools is false! Based on faulty logic.

Private schools=doesn't perform/discipline problem/disabled=kicked out/not excepted.
Where do those students end up?
Do the public schools get money for that student in the year he returns? To my knowledge-No.

Guess what parents don't always find private
schools the utopic paradise of learning that is promised in the brochures. Guess where they end up?

My wife is 1st grade school teacher...She has students placed in her class that have returned
from private schools that are seriously behind their peers in her class...Because that student's private school teacher was asleep behind the wheel!

The problem with the voucher's promise of smaller classes, better teachers and more money to public schools is based on fuzzy math/logic intended to give voters the idea that they aren't taking any money away from public schools=Not true!

Steven Jarvis | 1:42 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007

The argument that each voucher taken leaves money in the school is FALSE. The state and federal government funding is never put out for that child when they enroll in a private school. The only money that stays in the school is the property or local tax money.

The Voucher program cuts into the General fund. If it becomes too costly as we subsidize all these kids who would have gone to private schools without a voucher anyway, the state could choose to allocate more funds to the general fund and less to the educational fund in a shell game to disguise that they are directly cutting into public education.

Concerned | 1:46 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007

This is yet another reason we need vouchers. Read the legislation.

Another UVSC Professor | 1:45 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007

Dear "to UVSC college Professor" You make a great point. Only a SMALL percentage of Utah high school graduates go to BYU and University of Utah. The MAJORITY of Utah K12 graduates do not grasp high school math at the same level their international peers. They are actually at the 7% level, a failing grade in ANY school.

The legislature passed a law asking for world class math standards. The Office of Education dropped the ball, just they have with other recent issues.

It is time for an education revoltuion in Utah to weed out the dead wood in the powerful educational establishment "good ole boy" network.

Simplistic blame is easy | 1:57 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007

It's easy to lump all public schools and public school teachers together because you've had a bad experience w/some.
I like to see you go into a class w/25-35+ students
and see how you'd do.
Do you think you might get a litle numb after a while?
You really expect the public school to be more like a babysitting service than a place of learning.
You send your kids to school tired, sick, unfed, unprepared(Haven't finished their homework), many parents don't attend parent teacher conferences, don't read notes from the teachers, etc. and blame the teacher for the poor performance of little 'Johnny'!
Vouchers will really cure that! Rrrriiiiiiiiight?
Do you really expect the private school experience to be any better?
If your child has a 'poor' teacher...Talk to the teacher first(You might find your child is the problem instead!),maybe volunteer to help in the classroom, then complain to the principal if no improvement, then to the district.
Hmmmmm! Parental involvement in my child's education! What a concept.
Sure a heck of a lot more effective, and a lot cheaper than vouchers.
BTW I am not nor have I ever been a teacher!
I'm am not NEA stooge!

Anonymous | 2:14 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007

UVSC professor II,

Where do you get the 7% figure?

re: Juan | 2:17 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007

Stake academies were basically church run "public schools".

Which student were you? A, B, C???

I carried a 3.78 GPA in Social Science in college, and a 4.0 in my master's program.

Generalities are fun when you are the one making them...

...and the elections being rigged? Isn't it a little early in the day to start the parinoia? I don't start hearing voices until around 8:00 pm or so.

re: UVSC Prof | 2:21 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007

Why are you at UVSC?

Public schools?

(c'mon people, we're not blaming enough here...)

Chuvak | 2:24 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007

amen to the afore mentioned topic. parents try taking away your children's cell phones and then see how much more they (your children) learn, rather than how much stronger their fingers are getting. students are getting lazier and parents are getting more careless.

Wrong Jarvis | 2:25 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007

Jarvis is mistaken. Utah law restricts Income Tax Revenue for use in education. The three main sources of revenue for education are: Uniform School Fund (Income Tax), Federal Funds (primarily education grants), and Local Funds (tax levies placed on local property). The General Fund, from which the Voucher monies are derived, is funded by Sales and Use Tax (about 85% of total) and Other Misc. Revenue (Insurance premiums, Beer, Cigarette, & Tobacco Taxes, Oil Severance, etc). The amount of money from the General Fund that goes to education has been, except for this year where $12.4 million was set aside for the vouchers, about $254,900 per year. That's less than one hundredth of 1% of the total $3.5 billion budget (0.007%). Not much under that shell to play with.

If you would simply read the bill, you would understand how the mitigation clause works. Currently, each school district receives state funds under a formula based on the # of students enrolled in the district. If a student leaves a public school, under present law, the district no longer receives that money. The voucher program allows the district to continue to receive a portion of that money for another five years.

Sorry Juan | 2:28 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007

re: Juan

continued...

I've been a teacher for 18 years.

(Hey, what was the GPA of the President of the United States? I think he went to private schools.)

To concerned | 2:30 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007

Redo the math...It does not compute...It's a lie...

You can homeschool your child and get money for it already if you want w/o vouchers to those that want to!

I think that those that really want to pass a voucher bill need to come up w/another bill that reworks the way public schools are funded so that the public schools don't lose money when parents take their child out of public schools.

To make them truly compete with public schools...The bill should require private schools using public tax dollars to take anyone that applies including disabled children regardless of prior academic performance. Any student that returns to a public school because of the poor performance of a private school requies the voucher money be given from the private schools operating fund into the public school's fund.
Furthermore since public tax money is being used to fund the private school all academics, class sizes, administrative and teacher raises should be approved by the Legislature to keep costs under control(Similar to the Public Utilities Commission). Also private schools should have to compete for their tax dollars against state agencies, law enforcement, roads, universities, etc.

Parent Involvement | 2:41 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007

We all agree that parents make the biggest difference is a child's education. For those parents who don't take enough involvement in their child's education, unfortunately not much can be done to change that. Their kids will suffer. But for those of us who do attend the teacher conferences, work on homework, read with our children, we simply want more control over their education. Most teacher are good and care about their students, but for the ones who aren't, it is nearly impossible to get rid of them. They do almost irreparable harm to a student, especially those with little parent involvement. My desire would be to highly reward the good teachers and eliminate the bad ones, but the UEA and other unions are against that. Protection of their members at all cost is their charge. And so I'm left to either accept the status quo or remove my child from the system. Vouchers give me a better opportunity to do that. It introduces competition to the system and hopefully will force change in the deficient portions of our education system. Please read the Voucher bill. While not the answer to every problem, it will help.

Ryan Jones | 2:45 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007

I'm for vouchers.

It appears referendum 1 will fail next week. The good news is that it has inspired a lot of debate about education. I doubt if more than a handful of people have changed their minds on the subject, despite all the rantings and mailings. I personally feel the greatest impact on our kid's education is what we do as parents. If we, as adults, put as much effort into that as we do into our diversions, then we would really see improvement. Personally, I'm glad for the debate because at least it shows some people care. Now, put that energy into helping your kids. Turn off the T.V. and read with them or help them with their math.

Also, I disagree with Mr. Jarvis on this issue. But at least he offers intelligent, polite comments. He also is willing to post his name and not hide behind an alias. I can respect that.

SB | 2:46 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007

The truth finally comes out. I have been teaching in Utah schools for 3 years now, SLC School District. When I first learned you could do packets to graduate I was blown away, but that explained the high graduation rate, and the low test scores. Kids I get from other states are so far ahead of Utah kids, yes even kids form inter-city schools such as L.A. and New York. Now everyone is arguing about vouchers, this state never ceases to amaze me. Reduce class size, increase teacher salaries, and hold everyone accountable; parents, teachers, and administrators. You would then see the change, guaranteed. Yes it is that simple!

Texan | 3:06 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007

To SB:

Yes! I agree 100% Teachers here are held to a higher standard than in Utah, are paid better, and our classroom sizes are less than 25. Again, some of my son's friends who moved here from Utah at the begining of their senior year are having to do packets (being home-schooled, and thus will graduate from Utah schools). They were too far behind to finish up what would have been their senior year. We were lucky to move when our children were smaller. It's tough, here on my kids, but they at least they are challenged. Plus, there is nothing like Texas High School football and friday night lights!

Katchalater | 3:07 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007

My child attended an expensive private school in Utah and attended public school. There was one difference, class size. That's it. Also the school offered more art, music etc. But the quality of teachers was no better in a private school. Don't kid yourself-some private schools don't even have certified teachers. Get a $1,000 voucher and you will still owe between $5,000 and $25,000 for a private school. Don't waste your money. Spend that money on raising standards in the public schools. Get involved in your school and push Utah to lower class sizes. It is class size pure an simple.

As for kids from other states being so far ahead. Not really my child graduated in four years from a highly selective eastern college on the list of top 100 colleges.

Vote NO | 3:09 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007

Yes i pay for my kids private education. Yes they score far above average. No we dont want more kids in with them. No we dont want you public school money. Kids and GREAT education come first in my house. VOTE NO!!!!!

To To Concerned | 3:09 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007

Where to start?

1) Under the voucher bill, home-schoolers CANNOT receive a voucher.

2) Under PRESENT Utah law, if a student transfers from a public school to a private school, the school district no longer receives the state per-student funding for that student. The voucher program, however, would allow a district to continue to receive a portion (~$5500) of the per-student state funding for a voucher student for a period of 5 years after the student transfers to a private school.

3) Voucher money is paid to a private school in quarterly installments as long as the student is registered. If the student returns to the public system, the per-student state funding is reapplied to the school district. No harm.

4) You basically suggest we turn the private school into a public school, taking control of it from the students and parents and giving it to the education establishment. Listen, if parents are concerned enough to pony up several thousands of dollars to have their children in a private school, they certainly will make sure that the school is meeting their needs. If the school isn't good enough, they have the freedom to pull them out. READ THE BILL

No Homeschooling | 3:17 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007

I lived isolated from all "worldly" things as the homeschooling lady said. And I was sexually abused by three people.

Too much homeschooling is done by nuts and abusers half of whom do not have a college education and no one checks on those children.

Katchalater | 3:23 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007

I have to laugh when someone says America has the best health system. What are they basing that on? What they have been told? Statistics do not bear that out, we have a higher rate of mothers dying in child birth, a higher rate of babies dying at birth or in the first year, and a shorter life span than a number of European countries and Canada.

America has the most expensive health care, but I don't know that it is the best.

dollars and sense | 3:26 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007

I went to Parochial School for a decade. When I moved I attended public school. I was so far ahead of everyone that it was a joke.

I am surprised that the good people of Utah can't get it together enough to pursue a Parochial School system for their children.

But this might be cost-prohibited as their tithing eats up most of their discretionary income.

It's about competition? | 3:35 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007

"1) Under the voucher bill, home-schoolers CANNOT receive a voucher."

Why Not? If I were someone that wanted to homeschool my child...Where's the competition?

"The voucher program, however, would allow a district to continue to receive a portion (~$5500) of the per-student state funding for a voucher student for a period of 5 years after the student transfers to a private school."

They don't recieve a protion of $ 5500 dollars!
UtahPP$ is roughly $ 3,000ish. What portion?

"4) You basically suggest we turn the private school into a public school"

Since they are "competing" for public tax dollars
they should have to compete fairly - ie: Take any student that applies regardless of a disbility or not. Public schools have to use the public tax money to try to educate everyone. The voucher ads are the ones that bring up the competition idea. Let them compete on a level playing field! Public schools don't have the 'freedom' to accept or reject anyone!

If the private schools are that wonderfully run they should be able to compete on their own w/o vouchers!

READ THE BILL?
WATCH THE PRO VOUCHER ADS!
They bring up competition!
READ BETWEEN THE LINES!

Jennifer | 3:43 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007

No one has mentioned that in higher ed, BYU is ranked 72nd in the country - pretty mediocre. Utahns will never be able to compete with the rest of America, let alone the world, until parents actually spend time with the kids they have and work with their teachers to ensure a rigorous education. I've never been to a place with so few college grads, and yet parents are always bashing K-12. Kids grow up to be much like their parents. With dads who work in multi-level marketing or real esate, and moms who stay home and have lots of babies, no wonder test scores are low. Teachers are not miracle workers, people!!

Subjective? | 4:04 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007

To all those who have come to or moved from UT or attended a private school that was better...It's all subjective!

Pllllleeeeaaazzze!

My wife, a school teacher comments on how far behind kids that come from other schools, states and even private schools that come into her class are compared to her students she has had as students in her class all along. She can push them even faster and farther when she has parents volunteer, so that can give individual instruction to each student.
Parents that have had her as their child's teacher comment on how much more their child has learned compared to their prior school experience(Public school teacher teaching? Go figure!) even in a classroom with 25 first graders.

Does class size matter? Yes! Individual attention=Better one on one teaching!
Teachers push their students at different rates.
My wife happens to push her students as fast and as far as they'll go.

Vouchers promoters indicate that they will cure what's ailing public schools or at least get your child out of a terminally sick public school system.

If money can't cure the public school system problems...Why are private schools clamoring to get more?

yo-yo | 4:03 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007

We in Utah don't like big government are a Majority Republican yet love big daddy government run public schools. We love competition in our society but not if it involves our schools. I don't get it. Are we just going to feed the fish to the masses or teaching them how to fish.

LaVonne | 4:06 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007

People from this culture have a problem discerning revelation and thus taking responsibility for themselves. Everything is from an external source leaving a conservative, don't do anything, God will provide mentality.
As their authorities and bosses live in a lap of luxury.

Annoyed with it all | 4:15 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007

Most private schools do not accept vouchers to begin with. I give credit to those who are trying to improve education and vouchers are one way that may help. Why did this come out right before elections? hmmmmmmmmm Let vouchers flop on their own if it happens but don't let the federal government jump in and tell us in UT how to run our schools. Utah legislature passed the voucher bill and why is there so much opposition from outside of UT. All I have to say is if you vote no on the voucher and we loose vouchers....well let's see what else the federal government will step in on. This is not just a fight over the voucher. I will vote happily yes for the voucher.

re: Katchyalater | 4:27 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007

What, are you setting up for healthcare vouchers?

When the leaders of foreign countries with socialized medicine need a specialist, they come to the United States.

We have more babies die in childbirth because we have the technology to keep preemie babies alive and save their lives. It's risky, and some do die, while in foreign countries they would just classify them as stillborn.

We have the best education in the world. Test scores might be lower because we keep kids in schools, rather than throwing the students government deems better suited for manual labor into low paying jobs after 8th grade.

Healthcare, education (at all levels), the economy etc. are not at all perfect in the United States and we should strive to make them all "more perfect".

There are educational reforms out there that can make it better for "ALL" children in America. The public system, while imperfect, is best suited for implementing the reform (LOOK UP "ECONOMIES OF SCALE" PLEASE!!!)

Can we keep this discussion on educational reform going with our legislators after the election?

(BTW... to: JUAN, please don't stereotype people, it's just not fair -- my gardener named Juan taught me that).

Ryan Jones | 4:31 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007

Why can't everyone just address the voucher issue. And not use it as an excuse to sound off against specific groups (unnaturalized citizens, ESL children, Mormons, Catholics, large families). Let's remove the animosity and prejudices we may have and just tackle the issue. Don't manipulate it to be a sounding board for your hate.

Let's make public debate civil. Just because you disagree with someone is no reason to lose your cool.

Vouchers are a step in a right direction. Private enterprises run more efficiently than a government monopoly. There is no correlation between dollars spent per pupil and performance. More money is not needed. Vote yes for more efficiency.

Utah | 4:32 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007

Are we OK with business as usual or do we want a change? I'm voting Yes on Ref 1.

RE: School Board Member I 9:12am | 4:34 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007

"Leadership is the answer"?

You are on the schoolboard. HOW ABOUT SOME LEADERSHIP? Try eliminating some overpaid administrators that you approved their salary.

Please give us your name. I think that the people who voted for you deserve to know of your incompetentcy.

No surprise here | 4:39 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007

I have lived all over the county & let me tell you the public school system in Utah is not that good.

I live in Utah now. When traveling around, I can always tell people who went to school in Utah Vs. those who moved from another state.

Why? They cannot do simple math in their heads. They have trouble figuring out 15% for a tip. You would think it would be just a few. It is not! All the states around Utah have better educated students.

There are reasons for this I'm sure. Think about this. Spending 1 million dollars between pro & anti vouchers for the election. How about spending the money where it should be spent in the schools.

Simple math question: Utah 10,000 teachers. How much of a raise could they have received. Pay them what they are worth & watch the quality of learning increase.

If you can read this thank a teacher! If you can't do the math thank a politician

No Excuses | 5:13 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007

Its not about the money. Homeschool parents spend less than 1,000 per year, yet the Ivy League is courting their kids. Utah spends $7500, Challenger School (private) charges $6500...less, yet in this case less is more. Money does not buy an education. It comes from good curriculum, instruction and work. How many kids today are actually left back? After all, we would not want to lower their self-esteem..instead just give them candy. Yikes! No wonder the scores are abysmal.

Washington, D.C. spends over $12,000 per child, yet they still can't make the grade. Utah has a lot going for it, so what is the problem? Well, just maybe the public school system has been sitting on its laurels..as is the case in many states..taking the money and not generating results. Fact is, this is exactly why we need competition.

Besides, we already have private schools getting taxpayer money; they're called charter schools, Private managed, publicly funded schools..run by parents..yikes again..don't get run over.

No easy answers, but nothing ventured, nothing gained. Thanks to the good public school teachers who work in a overwhelming system.

enough excuses | 5:14 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007

Yes, it isn't the teacher's fault, nor the public education system, it is the parents.

Surely, it must be that at private schools that trounce the Utah public schools the parents ALL spend many hours each night teaching their children.

Parents should spend an hour per week filling their kids cavities, we need to be educating our kids so the teachers don't have to.

We should also all spend an hour each night doing the financial accounting for the school district. After all, it's only because parents won't contribute like they should that the school districts are unable to keep up with other states, other nations, other industries, other businesses, or anything else for that matter.
Vouchers really won't matter, but maybe they send a message to the NEA, UEA, etc. that pathetic mediocrity is not good enough for a state that ranks high in income, education, educational values, and low in minorities, poverty, etc.

Stop the excuses and start working on improvement!

M. Lindsey | 5:24 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007

How many of you actually have stepped foot in your child's classroom to help with academics rather than just a class party? I had one parent last year willing to work in the classroom, however, when we made gingerbread houses, 17 parents showed up to help. I average 12 hours a day of work which includes an hour before school and 3-4 hours after school. I work with students everyday right through my lunch hour to help them to understand or catch up. When I ask why their homework isn't finished, it's because of softball, football, soccer, dance, or they were watching movies as a family. The teachers are not to blame. We're doing our job plus the job of all too many parents who don't have time for their own children. Thank you to those of you who do care about your child's education, believe me, it's obvious which student's parents find education to be important.

To It's about Competition? | 5:55 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007

The voucher proposal specifically states where the voucher money can be spent. Payments to homeschooling students is not allowed. That's how the bill is written. I think that makes good sense. Why it's not allowed is not relevant to the discussion of vouchers.

You obviously have not read the state budget and how monies are distributed to school district. From the Legislative Fiscal Analyst, it reads "Currently, each school district receives state funds under a formula that is based on the number of students enrolled in the school district. If a student transfers from a public school to a private school, the school district would, under present law, no longer receive the state per-student funding for that student.
The Parent Choice in Education Program allows a school district to continue to receive a
portion of the per-student state funding for a scholarship student for a period of five years after
the student transfers to a private school." The Utah per pupil spending is roughly $7500 (lowest in the nation) so the school district receives the difference of $7500 and the state-wide average of the voucher money used, estimated to be $2000. $7500-$2000=$5500. Get it

TheHailstorm | 5:56 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007

I was a school teacher for years and want people to support prop !.. The figures the UEA show includes janitors , lunch work workers and every warm cadaver inthe schoool. Whos payomh for these ads.. the sheep of the UEA. Vouchers won't hurt the school and we have been hearing about class reductions since eEisnerhouser was in office--- nothong has been done and still won't if the voucher law passes. Smell the salts citizens.. Vote no on Prop. 1

Student Teacher | 6:16 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007

I am amazed at how much teacher bashing and religious bias has been focused here.
Here are the facts: Teachers are underpaid for the amount of work they do! (I am also a mom of six and was so unaware of all the hard work these people do day in and day out!) Our class sizes in this state are UNREAL! (How can any individual teacher teach a class full of 30+ children. I have seen a 6th grade class with as many as 40.) After being in the classroom, I notice that because of such large class sizes the teacher must focus all her attention to the children in the middle academically. This leaves the children on top bored out of their minds, and the children on the bottom, struggling. Then comes the problem of the parents who NEVER bother with their children's academics. (One boy in our class had his parents offer to give him a treat if he does well in football, but he is failing reading & math.) Parents can scream and raise cain all they want, but at the end of the day they need to look in the mirror and help their own child.

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