Reader comments
Poll shows vouchers losing by wide margin
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Dude Mark II | 8:45 a.m. Oct. 30, 2007
I think that polls do have an effect on turnout. But I'm not sure what the
ultimate effect is. It seems like people who are anti-voucher might stay home
because they're not concerned and people that are pro-voucher will stay
home because they view the vote as a lost cause. I wish more people would vote,
period.
Anonymous | 8:55 a.m. Oct. 30, 2007
Has anyone that is against the vouchers even read the bill outlining them. This
voucher bill I was strongly against until I took time to read and understand it.
This can only be good for Utah students. If it works then class sizes are
reduced without reducing very much money per student. If it does not work then
at least there is one alternative eliminated from our problem looming over the
public school system. In my mind this voucher issue is not the real problem.
The real problem is that right now the number of teachers is based upon the
number of students in a classroom. We need to reduce the minimum number of
students required per teacher!
Comments continue below
swrl | 10:02 a.m. Oct. 30, 2007
The public no-pay is not unlike the Bush Administration where they offer free
money to entrap the public who thought they were getting a bargin. The
legislature has agreed to fund the experiment for only a few years. Then we get
the shaft and the one's that were responsible have been promoted.
It's a heck of a job.
randy | 10:14 a.m. Oct. 30, 2007
the only two polls that will count on this voucher issue are the petition
signers .. that poll has already taken place .. better then 120,000 registered
utah voters were counted on that one ...
the next poll is next week when those same 120,000 petition signers will show up and sign again .. this time to reverse the law they previously signed a petition for
the next poll is next week when those same 120,000 petition signers will show up and sign again .. this time to reverse the law they previously signed a petition for
Jackopus | 11:03 a.m. Oct. 30, 2007
this is what you get for Utah, Capitol Hill trying to sneak programs past the
voters. One day we can hope for real representation, not little lord barons
playing politics
troutjig | 12:10 p.m. Oct. 30, 2007
I think we need to weed out the people that are not paying into the City
schools, going along for the free ride. This will cut classroom sizes, and
will help minimize the teacher to student ratio. The money would be there, and
they wouldnt have to be digging into the other funds to pay for it. Pay to Play.
To Dude | 3:00 p.m. Oct. 30, 2007
Polls don't lie... Politicians do!
Patriot | 4:36 p.m. Oct. 30, 2007
troutjig,
You must be talking about the illegals and their illegitimate anchor baby so called citizen children. We are forced to educate these squatters children because of a misinterpretation of the constitution and an activist supreme court.
You must be talking about the illegals and their illegitimate anchor baby so called citizen children. We are forced to educate these squatters children because of a misinterpretation of the constitution and an activist supreme court.
Anonymous | 6:58 p.m. Oct. 30, 2007
Patriot,
Those kids ARE United States citizens unless the constitution is amended. After the Civil War the country decided that being born inside the United States granted citizenship, and I agree with the law.
The real issue we face now is even though the child is a citizen, the parent is not. I have no real answer to the problem, and I doubt our leaders have one either. But maybe taking away the kids and putting them under state custody would be enough of a deterrent to create such abuses of the system. I doubt that sort of law would hold up in court, and it seems a bit cruel.
Those kids ARE United States citizens unless the constitution is amended. After the Civil War the country decided that being born inside the United States granted citizenship, and I agree with the law.
The real issue we face now is even though the child is a citizen, the parent is not. I have no real answer to the problem, and I doubt our leaders have one either. But maybe taking away the kids and putting them under state custody would be enough of a deterrent to create such abuses of the system. I doubt that sort of law would hold up in court, and it seems a bit cruel.
Corky | 8:20 p.m. Oct. 30, 2007
Assuming Dan Jones & the BYU poll are proven correct in a week, what - if
any - ramifications will there be for our elitist Legislature (yet again)
presuming to know better what the people need, instead of asking them.
Unfortunately, based on history, I have to (cynically) believe the Legislature will change the referendum law to make it more difficult for citizens to get laws put to a popular vote.
Unfortunately, based on history, I have to (cynically) believe the Legislature will change the referendum law to make it more difficult for citizens to get laws put to a popular vote.
supporter | 11:19 p.m. Oct. 30, 2007
I agree with Anonymous that vouchers can only help public schools. The educrats
can't have it both ways. They want reduced class size but won't give
up a portion of the dollars to get an empty seat. So to keep the money, they
want to keep the kids. Teacher numbers are set by the number of students. But
that is not set by the legislature. It is set by the State Board of Education
and each district.
Also, for the 160,000 new kids coming into the system in the next ten years, we will need to build several new public schools. Property taxes will have to skyrocket to meet the demand. Private schools are built by private dollars, not tax dollars.
It was educators who went to the legislators, after the first bill passed, asking for the second bill to fix some holes. A majority of those who voted against the first bill voted for the second bill because educators said it would be good for public education. This referendum put forth by the UEA and NEA is dishonest and disingenuous. It's not about what's good for children. It's about control of teachers by the unions.
Also, for the 160,000 new kids coming into the system in the next ten years, we will need to build several new public schools. Property taxes will have to skyrocket to meet the demand. Private schools are built by private dollars, not tax dollars.
It was educators who went to the legislators, after the first bill passed, asking for the second bill to fix some holes. A majority of those who voted against the first bill voted for the second bill because educators said it would be good for public education. This referendum put forth by the UEA and NEA is dishonest and disingenuous. It's not about what's good for children. It's about control of teachers by the unions.
supporter | 11:37 p.m. Oct. 30, 2007
To all of you opposing vouchers I say, read the bill for yourself. Don't
rely on the untruth's from educators. They are simply fear mongering. They
can't be everything to every kid. Private schools may be able to help those
kids who have fallen through the public crack.
Pell grants and VA benefits are vouchers. The Utah Tax Payers Association and the Utah Business Coalition support vouchers. Why? Because tax payers cannot continue to pay and pay and pay. Over the past three years, public education budget has been increased by 40% by $1 billion. Still it is not enough. It will never be enough to fill a black hole. Let's start thinking outside of the box. It it doesn't work, we get rid of it. If it works, teachers will have mud on their faces, just like they did when Charter Schools were proposed.
Pell grants and VA benefits are vouchers. The Utah Tax Payers Association and the Utah Business Coalition support vouchers. Why? Because tax payers cannot continue to pay and pay and pay. Over the past three years, public education budget has been increased by 40% by $1 billion. Still it is not enough. It will never be enough to fill a black hole. Let's start thinking outside of the box. It it doesn't work, we get rid of it. If it works, teachers will have mud on their faces, just like they did when Charter Schools were proposed.
Mark | 11:47 p.m. Oct. 30, 2007
Vouchers do not reduce class size. First, the average spending per student in
Utah is more like $5500, not $7500. Second, most of that money is spent on fixed
costs. Regardless of student population within a single school, those fixed
costs remain the same. The building didn't get cheaper. The computers
didn't get cheaper. The teacher didn't either.
Beyond that, by reducing students enough, the underfunded public system will be forced to "compete" by hiring a smaller number of teachers. It's also important to remember that public schools are not profit centers, and will not respond like business do in an open market.
As for the 160,000 new students, well, that's something we call economic growth. That many new students also means new parents, new houses, new families, and more tax dollars.
And finally, supporter, only 9 votes changed from HB 148 to 174. That's not a majority.
Beyond that, by reducing students enough, the underfunded public system will be forced to "compete" by hiring a smaller number of teachers. It's also important to remember that public schools are not profit centers, and will not respond like business do in an open market.
As for the 160,000 new students, well, that's something we call economic growth. That many new students also means new parents, new houses, new families, and more tax dollars.
And finally, supporter, only 9 votes changed from HB 148 to 174. That's not a majority.
Hiram B. | 3:21 p.m. Oct. 31, 2007
To Anonymous,
I have read the bill cover to cover. It is poorly written, and poorly concieved.
To Supporter,
Vouchers do not reduce class sizes, they increase them. Also, the bill does not say that it will be a 'temporary expirement'. There is no requirement for the legislature to reauthorize it. Once passed, it continues as the law of the land unless a future legislature or referendum undoes the mess.
But my real reason for posting:
Why are so many Republicans supporting such a liberal program anyway? The solution to public education is to get rid of as much federal and state control as possible. Put authority into the hands of parent run school boards.
Creating another entitlement program is NOT conservativism.
Free markets already exist. Schools are free to open, and parents are free to give them their business. Since when did conservatives support these kinds of subsidies. Government subsidies and regulations always lead to failure.
Do you really support something this socialistic?
I have read the bill cover to cover. It is poorly written, and poorly concieved.
To Supporter,
Vouchers do not reduce class sizes, they increase them. Also, the bill does not say that it will be a 'temporary expirement'. There is no requirement for the legislature to reauthorize it. Once passed, it continues as the law of the land unless a future legislature or referendum undoes the mess.
But my real reason for posting:
Why are so many Republicans supporting such a liberal program anyway? The solution to public education is to get rid of as much federal and state control as possible. Put authority into the hands of parent run school boards.
Creating another entitlement program is NOT conservativism.
Free markets already exist. Schools are free to open, and parents are free to give them their business. Since when did conservatives support these kinds of subsidies. Government subsidies and regulations always lead to failure.
Do you really support something this socialistic?
MIL inc. | 9:48 a.m. Nov. 1, 2007
I believe that everyone would agree that the public school system is not
working. This is the same school system we have had in place for much longer
then my lifetime. The only problem I see is competition for teachers and
competition for the public school system. I believe in capitalism. This should
force educators to focus on what we should be the whole time. Education!
to MIL | 2:14 p.m. Nov. 1, 2007
Do you read the newspaper? Go back and look at the past week's stories.
There were a few that said how well Utah's schools are performing. Top of
the nation.
So, no everyone would not agee that the public school system is not working. It is in fact doing wonders. Especially in Utah where so much is achieved on the lowest funding in the nation.
People that say it isn't working have believed too much Jon Stossel hype where he finds the worst school in the nation and says this is going on at your schools too.
It isn't.
Get up to speed. Go to your local school. See what is happening. What's that? It isn't happening at your school but you are sure it is happening at the school in the next city.
No it isn't.
Our schools are doing great. Yes they can improve and they will if the legislature ever funds them appropriately instead of wasting good money on lousy pieces of legislation.
Maybe one day.
So, no everyone would not agee that the public school system is not working. It is in fact doing wonders. Especially in Utah where so much is achieved on the lowest funding in the nation.
People that say it isn't working have believed too much Jon Stossel hype where he finds the worst school in the nation and says this is going on at your schools too.
It isn't.
Get up to speed. Go to your local school. See what is happening. What's that? It isn't happening at your school but you are sure it is happening at the school in the next city.
No it isn't.
Our schools are doing great. Yes they can improve and they will if the legislature ever funds them appropriately instead of wasting good money on lousy pieces of legislation.
Maybe one day.
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We should do away with polls, in my opinion.