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UEA attacks Referendum 1 in Salt Lake rally
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TYLER | 1:47 p.m. Oct. 30, 2007
I'm just a kid who just graduated from high school but I think I have a
right to justify my opinion. Utah's public schools are unfortunately
pathetic. But public schools are where the majority of students prefer to be.
Let's put money into where the students would like to go, make smaller
class sizes, get better equipment and more qualified teachers! Vote against
referandum 1!
Rodney | 2:10 p.m. Oct. 30, 2007
Destroy education with vouchers and private schools?! I think we're already
doing that with public schools. All of the standardized tests show we are
falling behind the rest of the world by time our children graduate from high
school they are outperformed by kids in 24 nations, places like Poland, Japan,
South Korea, Belgium, etc...
Anywhere more choice and freedom has been instituted when it comes to education, results have been favorable for students in all socioeconomic levels. I have read and studied multiple cases here in the U.S. and abroad and I have yet to find a single case where education achievement has declined for students of any socioeconomic background. Spend 40 minutes to get a quick introduction to the benefits and actual results of more freedom and choices in education by watching "Stupid In America", the investigative report done by ABC's John Stossel on 20/20 (check it out on youtube).
Good teacher's shouldn't fear more freedom in education. They will get paid more and have more benefits. The kids get better instruction and are able to find schools and teachers who fit their individual needs. The "one size fits all" model is rediculous and fails our students.
Anywhere more choice and freedom has been instituted when it comes to education, results have been favorable for students in all socioeconomic levels. I have read and studied multiple cases here in the U.S. and abroad and I have yet to find a single case where education achievement has declined for students of any socioeconomic background. Spend 40 minutes to get a quick introduction to the benefits and actual results of more freedom and choices in education by watching "Stupid In America", the investigative report done by ABC's John Stossel on 20/20 (check it out on youtube).
Good teacher's shouldn't fear more freedom in education. They will get paid more and have more benefits. The kids get better instruction and are able to find schools and teachers who fit their individual needs. The "one size fits all" model is rediculous and fails our students.
Anonymous | 2:23 p.m. Oct. 30, 2007
Cookies for the Rich
Have you even read the Referandum????
Have you even read the Referandum????
Comments continue below
Vote | 2:27 p.m. Oct. 30, 2007
let's defeat this referendum then vote out all the legislatures who passed
this bill, that is consuming so much time and money on such a
bad idea.
bad idea.
LCR | 3:04 p.m. Oct. 30, 2007
Joe, read the legislation for vouchers! There is not a requirement for a
teacher to be "Certified!" Equivalency just doesn't cut it.
James Madison, just this morning national news showed Utah State is the only state in the nation that does not have a dropout factory school. Public education in Utah is evidently getting the job done.
By the way, the property tax for school funding is the most viable tax out there and one that guarantees a literate society, equal opportunity (public education has actually been the only successful 'affirmative action' program out there) and underlies a vibrant economy.
Vouchers hiding behind the secular mantra of "Choice" belies the fact that religion is really at the core of the whole issue. If parents want more religion and less secularism in their children's education then go back to your own churches and demand they be part of setting up the private schools, paid for by the parents (and the churches), to meet these personal desires. Now that's getting to the crux of the issue and being totally honest with the facts!
James Madison, just this morning national news showed Utah State is the only state in the nation that does not have a dropout factory school. Public education in Utah is evidently getting the job done.
By the way, the property tax for school funding is the most viable tax out there and one that guarantees a literate society, equal opportunity (public education has actually been the only successful 'affirmative action' program out there) and underlies a vibrant economy.
Vouchers hiding behind the secular mantra of "Choice" belies the fact that religion is really at the core of the whole issue. If parents want more religion and less secularism in their children's education then go back to your own churches and demand they be part of setting up the private schools, paid for by the parents (and the churches), to meet these personal desires. Now that's getting to the crux of the issue and being totally honest with the facts!
Now What? | 3:09 p.m. Oct. 30, 2007
What is the future of vouchers in this state when the referendum is defeated?
Can't the legislature just pass another bill? All this vote does is defeat
the bill passed and signed by the Governor. I don't think it has any
bearing on future voucher legislation.
"Facts Are Stubborn Things" | 3:35 p.m. Oct. 30, 2007
John Adams, our second president, was a beneficiary of school choice. The rest
of the country benefited from his leadership. He wanted to quit school at 14 and
be a farmer, like his dad. His dad let him quit for one day and then made him go
back to school. After his dad discovered he didn't like school because of
the teacher, he immediately pulled him out and put him in a new school with a
different teacher and his grades and performance went up immediately.
I have heard all the hysteria and fear tactics by the antivoucher groups. Facts are, school choice has improved education across the board wherever it has been given a chance. The truth is in these facts, not in the fear and emotional pleas of antivoucher crowd.
This bill isn't "perfect". But it's a step in the right direction. And just as "the business of moving the world forward doesn't wait for perfect people"; it also doesn't wait for perfect legislation--there is no such thing.
Parents have the right to choose what is best for their children; not the government, the school board or the teachers and their union. Freedom of choice is American.
I have heard all the hysteria and fear tactics by the antivoucher groups. Facts are, school choice has improved education across the board wherever it has been given a chance. The truth is in these facts, not in the fear and emotional pleas of antivoucher crowd.
This bill isn't "perfect". But it's a step in the right direction. And just as "the business of moving the world forward doesn't wait for perfect people"; it also doesn't wait for perfect legislation--there is no such thing.
Parents have the right to choose what is best for their children; not the government, the school board or the teachers and their union. Freedom of choice is American.
Joe | 4:01 p.m. Oct. 30, 2007
LCR: I don't believe I ever said that a teacher had to be certified, only
degreed (or have experience or background which qualifies him/her to teach a
particular subject). There is a big difference.
As for you judgment call that this "doesn't cut it," well, you are entitled to your opinion on that. I have an engineering degree that included six quarters of calculus. I could probably handle a 10th grade algebra class. I also have an MBA and have workied in management positions since 1992. I could probably handle a 12th grade business class. I work with computers all day long. I could probably do a 9th grade keyboarding class. In short, I disagree with you and think it "does cut it."
The credential is the result of an additional year of college education that stresses pedagogy plus an internship. It's a study in teaching methods.
I'm 54 years old. When I'm 60, I'd like to leave the corporate rat race and teach for four or five years. Right now I can't because of certification. Don't you think it might strengthen the world of education if we could hire teachers who have actually used the skills they teach?
As for you judgment call that this "doesn't cut it," well, you are entitled to your opinion on that. I have an engineering degree that included six quarters of calculus. I could probably handle a 10th grade algebra class. I also have an MBA and have workied in management positions since 1992. I could probably handle a 12th grade business class. I work with computers all day long. I could probably do a 9th grade keyboarding class. In short, I disagree with you and think it "does cut it."
The credential is the result of an additional year of college education that stresses pedagogy plus an internship. It's a study in teaching methods.
I'm 54 years old. When I'm 60, I'd like to leave the corporate rat race and teach for four or five years. Right now I can't because of certification. Don't you think it might strengthen the world of education if we could hire teachers who have actually used the skills they teach?
Safety Net | 5:36 p.m. Oct. 30, 2007
After California made a law that makes it illegal to mention Mother and Father
in school text books, and our text books here in Utah come from Cal. I need a
safety net so that when they start teaching that two fathers is ok or two
mothers is just another lifestyle, I can afford to pull my kids out of public
school. (especially when they take health and are taught how two men are, well,
friendly in their lifestyle)
I'm voting for vouchers
I'm voting for vouchers
Re: Joe | 5:41 p.m. Oct. 30, 2007
Good answer, leave the corporate rat race and teach for four or five years.
The reason that you can't "because of certification" is that the kids would eat you alive and spit you out. Motivate 30 plus 14 year olds for 50 minutes and then have 30 fresh 14 year olds walk in for the next six classes. Keep them entertained and be willing to deal with any issues they have.
Go follow your 7th or 8th grade student around for seven periods a day for one week. You need to wait to use the restroom once every 50 minutes on a bell. Eat your lunch in 35 minutes. Go to your second and third jobs when the kids go home and then after your kids go to bed, correct papers.
I am a former stockbroker who made the switch 17 years ago. I have seen teachers come and go. It's probably one of the toughest jobs out there.
Ther reason that you can name all of the countries ahead of us in education is that Japan, China, Korea, etc. move the non-performing students out of the system and they aren't counting them.
Good luck with that though.
The reason that you can't "because of certification" is that the kids would eat you alive and spit you out. Motivate 30 plus 14 year olds for 50 minutes and then have 30 fresh 14 year olds walk in for the next six classes. Keep them entertained and be willing to deal with any issues they have.
Go follow your 7th or 8th grade student around for seven periods a day for one week. You need to wait to use the restroom once every 50 minutes on a bell. Eat your lunch in 35 minutes. Go to your second and third jobs when the kids go home and then after your kids go to bed, correct papers.
I am a former stockbroker who made the switch 17 years ago. I have seen teachers come and go. It's probably one of the toughest jobs out there.
Ther reason that you can name all of the countries ahead of us in education is that Japan, China, Korea, etc. move the non-performing students out of the system and they aren't counting them.
Good luck with that though.
Julie | 5:46 p.m. Oct. 30, 2007
Joe,
You are absolutely correct. And I'll take an experienced professional any day over a credentialed teacher who has no experience. I'm not knocking credentials, I just think that academics could use a dose of real life experience. I would think Joe that a school should jump at the chance to use your experience.
I don't understand why we are so opposed to vouchers. If the public schools are so wonderful (and in some cases they are) then the parents within their boundries will be more than happy to have their children attend them. BUT, if they are not, (or it isn't working for an individual student) shouldn't we assume that the underperforming public school will do something to improve when students are all leaving for a better education?
In so many cases, it is not the teachers who work hard and try to educate our children. It is the administrators and others who dictate how and what our children should learn.
So for the sake of the kids and their future, let's put aside our differences and give it a TRY. The flaws (if any) can be addressed later by changing the law. Please vote YES for Referendum One.
You are absolutely correct. And I'll take an experienced professional any day over a credentialed teacher who has no experience. I'm not knocking credentials, I just think that academics could use a dose of real life experience. I would think Joe that a school should jump at the chance to use your experience.
I don't understand why we are so opposed to vouchers. If the public schools are so wonderful (and in some cases they are) then the parents within their boundries will be more than happy to have their children attend them. BUT, if they are not, (or it isn't working for an individual student) shouldn't we assume that the underperforming public school will do something to improve when students are all leaving for a better education?
In so many cases, it is not the teachers who work hard and try to educate our children. It is the administrators and others who dictate how and what our children should learn.
So for the sake of the kids and their future, let's put aside our differences and give it a TRY. The flaws (if any) can be addressed later by changing the law. Please vote YES for Referendum One.
pb | 5:48 p.m. Oct. 30, 2007
Since when do private schools actually give parents a choice? Isn't the
choice given to the private school to screen students that they accept, and the
school chooses who is allowed to attend? Public schools accept ALL children, and
parents have a choice as to which public school they will send their children.
They also have a choice to send their children to private school. I just
don't want to pay for that choice any more than I want to pay for their
burglar alarm if they don't feel their police force is doing its job. It
has been interesting to read the comments about how students scores are falling.
If you will check the actual results in Utah schools, Utah public schools score
VERY well on annual testing, actually as high as and higher than most of our
privately funded schools. I will be voting against referendum 1...and yes, I
have read it!
Sad | 6:10 p.m. Oct. 30, 2007
What is going on here? There have been some good comments written but most are
just venting accusations against the UEA.
Is that the criteria we use when we choose a candidate for office? Should we avoid candidates simply because of who backs them or because we don't like their home state without considering their stance on the issues?
I wonder how we would have voted when Lincoln was running. Would we have voted against him simply because we didn't like people from Illinois?
The fact that the UEA opposes Referendum 1 has little bearing. One of the most honorable rights given us as citizens is the right to vote. What are we doing with that right? Do we honor it when we fail to completely look at facts? I know there are some who have read the available materials. However, I can't help but doubt the majority have read even the voter's pamphlet not to mention the actual bill.
We dishonor our right to vote if all we do is base our voting decisions on television and radio adds, hearsay or celebrity endorsements. This is a very divisive issue that requires and deserves much more respect.
Is that the criteria we use when we choose a candidate for office? Should we avoid candidates simply because of who backs them or because we don't like their home state without considering their stance on the issues?
I wonder how we would have voted when Lincoln was running. Would we have voted against him simply because we didn't like people from Illinois?
The fact that the UEA opposes Referendum 1 has little bearing. One of the most honorable rights given us as citizens is the right to vote. What are we doing with that right? Do we honor it when we fail to completely look at facts? I know there are some who have read the available materials. However, I can't help but doubt the majority have read even the voter's pamphlet not to mention the actual bill.
We dishonor our right to vote if all we do is base our voting decisions on television and radio adds, hearsay or celebrity endorsements. This is a very divisive issue that requires and deserves much more respect.
Re: Re: Joe | 6:37 p.m. Oct. 30, 2007
Your comments are among the best I've read and certainly one of the most
heartfelt.
Without doubt, someone will object and bash you along with the public school system you represent. But, it's dedicated teachers like you that make our public education system work.
Personally, as a parent, I'm a bit tired of people constantly complaining about teachers failing when it's the responsibility of the teacher to assist the parent, not the other way around. In other words, too many expect the system to do what parents fail to do.
Parents should be teaching the child to read and write from the time they're young. Parents should be teaching their children to find joy in learning so that when the child goes to school, they are interested and attentive.
If your child can't read, you teach them. If your child doesn't understand algebra, you teach them. If your child doesn't understand anatomy and physiology you teach them. Your child's teacher will help you in what is your primary responsibility.
If you can't help your child with his/her chemistry or calculus then how can you blame the system for failing. We need to stop blaming teachers and start appreciating them.
Without doubt, someone will object and bash you along with the public school system you represent. But, it's dedicated teachers like you that make our public education system work.
Personally, as a parent, I'm a bit tired of people constantly complaining about teachers failing when it's the responsibility of the teacher to assist the parent, not the other way around. In other words, too many expect the system to do what parents fail to do.
Parents should be teaching the child to read and write from the time they're young. Parents should be teaching their children to find joy in learning so that when the child goes to school, they are interested and attentive.
If your child can't read, you teach them. If your child doesn't understand algebra, you teach them. If your child doesn't understand anatomy and physiology you teach them. Your child's teacher will help you in what is your primary responsibility.
If you can't help your child with his/her chemistry or calculus then how can you blame the system for failing. We need to stop blaming teachers and start appreciating them.
Joe, Joe, Joe | 7:36 p.m. Oct. 30, 2007
You have an engineering degree and an MBA. You work with computers all day.
I have a degree in Social Sciences, an extra year for a credential and an Master's Degree in teaching. I have been teaching for 18 years and probably make 1/2 to 1/4 of what you make. Are you willing to make the sacrifice financially? How about that of time with your family? Summers are off, which is cool, but not alot of high paying summer jobs.
I love it when retired professionals come in and substitute. I agree with re: Joe, the kids smell weakness and unless you have some special gift with 14 year olds, they would have their way with you. I have had to cover classes because the new teacher is crying. I have seen subs and new teachers leave midday, mid week, mid year, but of course anyone can do it. But I'm sure working all day on a computer has you prepared.
I'm thinking that when I am done teaching, I am going to take four of five years off and be an Engineer with an MBA, but they want me to have a certificate. What about MY exeprience?
I have a degree in Social Sciences, an extra year for a credential and an Master's Degree in teaching. I have been teaching for 18 years and probably make 1/2 to 1/4 of what you make. Are you willing to make the sacrifice financially? How about that of time with your family? Summers are off, which is cool, but not alot of high paying summer jobs.
I love it when retired professionals come in and substitute. I agree with re: Joe, the kids smell weakness and unless you have some special gift with 14 year olds, they would have their way with you. I have had to cover classes because the new teacher is crying. I have seen subs and new teachers leave midday, mid week, mid year, but of course anyone can do it. But I'm sure working all day on a computer has you prepared.
I'm thinking that when I am done teaching, I am going to take four of five years off and be an Engineer with an MBA, but they want me to have a certificate. What about MY exeprience?
Dave | 8:23 p.m. Oct. 30, 2007
If private school takes public money to help fund it does it not become a public
school. There by becoming subject to the state rules governing schools.
No brainer | 8:57 p.m. Oct. 30, 2007
My kids class has kids sharing desks, and if someone wants to take their kid out
of the class, leave $3,000 on the table for the other kids to use, then I'm
for it. If only more people could afford it, then class size would truly be
reduced. The teachers and their union are so arrogant to believe that they are
the beat all and end all when it comes to educating our kids. Putting a
chokehold on competition doens't benefit children, it only benefits the
teachers jobs. I don't blame them for being protective of our their
positions, but don't believe for a minute that they are against Ref 1
because of the children.
Clark | 10:31 p.m. Oct. 30, 2007
Since when did unions EVER help deliver a better product to the customer?
Unions are about power and control. The UEA is no different. If we want a
better educational product in Utah, we need to buck the system. The fact is
that the Board of Education and the UEA has been given a chance to fix the
problem of class sizes and teacher pay with substantial funding increases from
the state of Utah. And they failed because they are too busy building their
administrative kingdoms, rather than directing the money to the schools and
teachers where it is needed. I'm voting for vouchers and against the
status quo.
Trout-P | 11:42 p.m. Oct. 30, 2007
Washington County School district of St, George had their fall break on Oct.
12-15. they have chosen not to participate in the UEA convention as it is so
far away and really doesn't apply to them. Most teachers from here
don't go.
By the by, what is wrong with Unions? Unions help to pay those who work. That is, employers can't get away with slave labor as is all too common in this State. We would be a better State if we had more UNIONS. Who controls the workers? It is the Rich elitists think about it? Leaders in Government or in Churches want and need the richness and power to control its members. That way, when things go off, they can't be blamed. If a church puts away a doctrine say 70 years ago and then tells its members that they shouldn't delve into those things because it was in the past. You know what, those things that have been put away by the Church and the Government are important reminders of how it really should be. But we as the peons just sit back and accept what they do and say without a disenting vote!Pay Attention!
By the by, what is wrong with Unions? Unions help to pay those who work. That is, employers can't get away with slave labor as is all too common in this State. We would be a better State if we had more UNIONS. Who controls the workers? It is the Rich elitists think about it? Leaders in Government or in Churches want and need the richness and power to control its members. That way, when things go off, they can't be blamed. If a church puts away a doctrine say 70 years ago and then tells its members that they shouldn't delve into those things because it was in the past. You know what, those things that have been put away by the Church and the Government are important reminders of how it really should be. But we as the peons just sit back and accept what they do and say without a disenting vote!Pay Attention!
Competition | 11:56 p.m. Oct. 30, 2007
Competition is always a good thing! It makes us better, leaner and stronger.
If you don't think tax dollars go to private schools already, I hate to tell you I got a pell grant to attend BYU. Last time I checked it was a private school.
If you don't think tax dollars go to private schools already, I hate to tell you I got a pell grant to attend BYU. Last time I checked it was a private school.
Tim | 12:24 a.m. Oct. 31, 2007
Unions protect the self-interests of its members. That's all fine and good
in, say, manufacturing. But in education the interest MUST be in the students,
and every single inept member-teacher who fails our children is protected by the
power of the teachers' unions. There is a reason that the anti-voucher
campaign is being carried on almost exclusively by state and national
teachers' unions. If public school teachers were confident that they do
the most effective job they can in educating our youth, then what fear do they
have from parental choice? They see a threat because they know that they do not
perform to competitive standards. If their stranglehold on education is broken,
they know that parents will take their children to places where they CAN be
educated effectively. The solution to public education is three fold: Increase
competition, Increase teacher pay, and BREAK THE UNIONS. Our children
can't afford to be educated by self-serving and far-too-often ineffective
instructors.
kcatch9 | 8:28 a.m. Oct. 31, 2007
Joe: Nebo School district did have to find substitutes as well as, I would bet,
the majority of Utah county school districts and probably numerous other
districts.
If the Jordan school district was out of school, it was probably because their district leaders decided to name their "fall break" "UEA break" instead. The Nebo district made it clear to their teachers that the UEA is and always will be separate from the public school system. If the districts choose to have their regularly scheduled breaks correspond with the Union conference, that is their prerogative, but it is definitely not policy.
If the Jordan school district was out of school, it was probably because their district leaders decided to name their "fall break" "UEA break" instead. The Nebo district made it clear to their teachers that the UEA is and always will be separate from the public school system. If the districts choose to have their regularly scheduled breaks correspond with the Union conference, that is their prerogative, but it is definitely not policy.
DR | 8:43 a.m. Oct. 31, 2007
I keep reading about competition. News flash! Competition already exists.
Just because the funding presently comes from different sources doesn't
mean that public and private schools aren't currently competing.
Voucher's don't increase competition, all they do is change the source
of funding.
Look at it this way: McDonald's and Burger King are competitors. They get their funding from different sources but they are still in competition. Likewise, public and private schools get their funding from different sources but they are still competing.
To provide a voucher from public funds for private schools would be like McDonald's providing a voucher out of their operating budget so you could eat at Burger King. No business out there would be so dumb as to provide money from their own operating budget to help the competition. Why should public schools be any different? Okay, I know what you're thinking. Voucher money comes from the General Fund, not the Education fund. Correct, but, it's still public money that could and should go to public programs, including public schools to buy desks, textbooks, library books, playground equipment, etc. Private entities need to find their own money, not expect the competition to fund them..
Look at it this way: McDonald's and Burger King are competitors. They get their funding from different sources but they are still in competition. Likewise, public and private schools get their funding from different sources but they are still competing.
To provide a voucher from public funds for private schools would be like McDonald's providing a voucher out of their operating budget so you could eat at Burger King. No business out there would be so dumb as to provide money from their own operating budget to help the competition. Why should public schools be any different? Okay, I know what you're thinking. Voucher money comes from the General Fund, not the Education fund. Correct, but, it's still public money that could and should go to public programs, including public schools to buy desks, textbooks, library books, playground equipment, etc. Private entities need to find their own money, not expect the competition to fund them..
Rural | 9:06 a.m. Oct. 31, 2007
No one has yet supplied a satisfactory answer how voucher's benefit the
rural areas.
I graduated from a rural public school. It was the most amazing school I attended (I moved a lot and, as a result, went to several schools).
Since rural schools don't have the same problems as inner city schools and, therefore, don't need what privates schools offer, where's the benefit for them? Why should rural families tax dollars be spent on inner city private school families when that money (from the General Fund) could go towards funding their needs?
Many rural families are on very limited budgets and go without the luxuries that are common to the affluent families in larger cities, especially those with children in private schools. How is that fair to the rural families? Where's the equity to them that they should go without so some family living many miles away, making (at least) double or triple the income, can get free government money while the rural family goes without?
Many rural workers are farmers and ranchers laboring hard to provide food for city dwellers. Do we appreciate that?
It just isn't ethical to take from the poor to give to the affluent.
I graduated from a rural public school. It was the most amazing school I attended (I moved a lot and, as a result, went to several schools).
Since rural schools don't have the same problems as inner city schools and, therefore, don't need what privates schools offer, where's the benefit for them? Why should rural families tax dollars be spent on inner city private school families when that money (from the General Fund) could go towards funding their needs?
Many rural families are on very limited budgets and go without the luxuries that are common to the affluent families in larger cities, especially those with children in private schools. How is that fair to the rural families? Where's the equity to them that they should go without so some family living many miles away, making (at least) double or triple the income, can get free government money while the rural family goes without?
Many rural workers are farmers and ranchers laboring hard to provide food for city dwellers. Do we appreciate that?
It just isn't ethical to take from the poor to give to the affluent.
LCR | 9:06 a.m. Oct. 31, 2007
Joe, I'm a big fan of having teachers who have a work history of experience
in their field being teachers, however, the certification process enables the
administrators to work from a standardized perspective. Teachers should still
be certified, then their work experience should be added to the mix when hiring
decisions come into play. The corporate world you speak of has an unspoken
standard of passing the experienced worker over for one who has taken the effort
to get a degree. Now when someone applies for a job and is both degreed and
experienced they have a greater chance of getting the job. In fact, that is
what most credible MBA programs are now based on, which accounts for why there
is less MBA driven screw ups than there was before a degree/experience MBA
programs were put in place by leading universities.
When you take public monies to fund private schools they are no long private. in the university system, any college that receives public funding thereupon becomes subject to the standards set by the public funding system. (It's why BYU has never accepted public funding of its programs.) Why should the voucher program be exempt from this public trust?
When you take public monies to fund private schools they are no long private. in the university system, any college that receives public funding thereupon becomes subject to the standards set by the public funding system. (It's why BYU has never accepted public funding of its programs.) Why should the voucher program be exempt from this public trust?
Poor Joe | 10:12 a.m. Oct. 31, 2007
Joe, if your experience is all that is needed to teach a classroom full of
children then why even send kids to private schools or any school for that
matter? Why not just send them out into the world and give them on-the-job
training instead and see how far they get? After all, if private schools
don't require certified teachers, then being properly educated, qualified
and ability tested for a specific field isn't necessary, right?
Steven Jarvis | 11:03 a.m. Oct. 31, 2007
Joe | 4:01 p.m. Oct. 30, 2007,
The ARL program is for you. However you may find it difficult getting a job anywhere except at a Charter school with an ARL certificate. We have quite a few teachers on the ARL program in Charter schools and the problems they face in lack of the knowledge of State and Federal education laws, and classroom management skills. You will also may be required to take classes at the same time teaching.
The ARL program is for you. However you may find it difficult getting a job anywhere except at a Charter school with an ARL certificate. We have quite a few teachers on the ARL program in Charter schools and the problems they face in lack of the knowledge of State and Federal education laws, and classroom management skills. You will also may be required to take classes at the same time teaching.
Not Yet a Teacher | 12:14 p.m. Oct. 31, 2007
What a naive view you radicals have about Unions! Unions are not primarily about
protecting the self-interests of the members of the union - rather, it is about
protecting the members of the union AS PROFESSIONALS. In other words, the UEA,
like all professional associations, societies, etc. are committed to advancing
the PROFESSION of teaching. This means the systematic pursuit of excellence in
teaching. What could be better for students than having the most professional,
highly skilled teachers possible?!
Think about it. All the LDS Church is is a "union" of believers; an "association" of people who are committed to pursuing excellence (perfection) in spiritual matters. Yes, there are people who attack the Church because of its power, or for the Church's stand on certain issues, or for failures among the membership or leaders - just like you are doing to the UEA!
How can you conspiracy theorists keep those thoughts consisten in your heads: Trust the LDS Church (association) and take it at face value, but certainly the UEA is NOT REALLY committed to educational excellence; they only want to line their own pockets!??
Think about it. All the LDS Church is is a "union" of believers; an "association" of people who are committed to pursuing excellence (perfection) in spiritual matters. Yes, there are people who attack the Church because of its power, or for the Church's stand on certain issues, or for failures among the membership or leaders - just like you are doing to the UEA!
How can you conspiracy theorists keep those thoughts consisten in your heads: Trust the LDS Church (association) and take it at face value, but certainly the UEA is NOT REALLY committed to educational excellence; they only want to line their own pockets!??
Grant A. | 1:41 p.m. Oct. 31, 2007
Think through this for a moment. Why would teachers oppose vouchers? You would
think that if vouchers can really perform the "loaves and fishes"
miracle proponents claim - increase spending per child in the public schools
while still increasing money for parents to pay for private education - then
there should be higher-paying jobs available in the private school market! And
if that was true, certainly teachers would want to see better paying
opportunities available to them!
If that is the case, then why would the UEA - the union of teachers - fight against vouchers?
...unless teachers really do think that vouchers are NOT in the best interests of students, nor teachers, nor the teaching profession. That would explain their opposition.
But that can't be because we all know (beyond a shadow of a doubt) that teachers are only in it for the money, the power, and the inefficient, bureaucratic control...???
If that is the case, then why would the UEA - the union of teachers - fight against vouchers?
...unless teachers really do think that vouchers are NOT in the best interests of students, nor teachers, nor the teaching profession. That would explain their opposition.
But that can't be because we all know (beyond a shadow of a doubt) that teachers are only in it for the money, the power, and the inefficient, bureaucratic control...???
Flawed | 2:24 p.m. Oct. 31, 2007
NYAT: The difference between the LDS Church and the UEA is that the LDS Church
doesn't make financial demands on people who disagree with their platform.
The UEA wants everyone to pay for their salaries, but under no circumstance
should we ever dream about looking for alternatives to their curriculum. Have
you ever had a problem with a teacher and went to talk to a principal about
him/her. You get a whole lot of head-nodding, but nothing ever changes. With a
private school, the administration thrives and requests feedback from parents so
that they can IMPROVE. Every heard the UEA wanting to listen to parents, or try
to improve? Me neither.
Freedom of Choice | 2:33 p.m. Oct. 31, 2007
The ACLU and NEA are against vouchers. This seals the deal for me. If they are
against it I should probably vote FOR vouchers. For being so
"Pro-Choice" the ACLU for some reason wants to curtail my ability to
choose by keeping my tax dollars and telling me where to send my student for the
best education.
I don't get it - Don't public school teachers see that if Referendum #1 passes they will have 5 years of christmas like funding. For every student that leaves to go to a private school that school will still recieve the full weighted pupil unit (funding) for the next five years. They will recieve money even though the student is not in their classroom. What some unions will go to to preserve their monopoly on the education system.
I don't get it - Don't public school teachers see that if Referendum #1 passes they will have 5 years of christmas like funding. For every student that leaves to go to a private school that school will still recieve the full weighted pupil unit (funding) for the next five years. They will recieve money even though the student is not in their classroom. What some unions will go to to preserve their monopoly on the education system.
Really Sad | 2:54 p.m. Oct. 31, 2007
As an active member of the LDS church, yet not a native Utahn, I'm
embarrassed. I came here knowing full well the rumors that Utah Latter-day
Saints have a reputation of being different. I refused to believe it. After
several years of living here, I hate to admit, the rumor is true. It stems
mostly from Utah County, where there are many extreme views. Of course, the
entire group shouldn't be judged by the actions of some. However,
I've never witnessed such a sad sight.
My faith never has been and never will be based on the premise of superiority. It is based on kindness, love for one another, HUMILITY, unity, brotherhood, etc.
This whole voucher issue has really been eye opening! I've never witnessed such blatant, outspoken desires to be divided and separate by a people who should be known for their kindness to and respect for all people.
Fortunately, the voucher issue is not an LDS vs. non-LDS issue. Make no mistake, the LDS church takes no stand on the issue. The claim by some regarding negative views towards unions, democrats, etc is strictly the opinion of individuals with extreme ideas, not that of the LDS church.
My faith never has been and never will be based on the premise of superiority. It is based on kindness, love for one another, HUMILITY, unity, brotherhood, etc.
This whole voucher issue has really been eye opening! I've never witnessed such blatant, outspoken desires to be divided and separate by a people who should be known for their kindness to and respect for all people.
Fortunately, the voucher issue is not an LDS vs. non-LDS issue. Make no mistake, the LDS church takes no stand on the issue. The claim by some regarding negative views towards unions, democrats, etc is strictly the opinion of individuals with extreme ideas, not that of the LDS church.
Teacher | 11:11 p.m. Oct. 31, 2007
Hey Flawed,
If you have a problem with a teacher, you go to that teacher. Sounds like a novel concept, but really going to the person you have a problem with would be the best way of dealing with the problem. Going instead to the principal is very much like gossip since the principal isn't the person you have a problem with.
If you have a problem with a teacher, you go to that teacher. Sounds like a novel concept, but really going to the person you have a problem with would be the best way of dealing with the problem. Going instead to the principal is very much like gossip since the principal isn't the person you have a problem with.
Anonymous | 11:14 p.m. Oct. 31, 2007
The LDS stance on the Voucher issue is the same as it is for almost all
political issues and elections. Study out and find as much about the candidates
and make a prayerful decision.
I like how the church remains neutral so long as it isn't an attack on the family.
I like how the church remains neutral so long as it isn't an attack on the family.
Teacher's Son | 3:19 a.m. Nov. 2, 2007
All of you people who think that the UEA is trying to "maintain it's
power" by rallying against vouchers obviously don't know what
it's like to be a teacher. My father has been a public school teacher for
almost 30 years now. He's been an active member of the UEA in the past, but
I don't know how active he has been recently. He has been involved in
contract negotiations to help teachers at least maintain the miniscule benefits
they have. I graduated from BYU in 2004 and I currently make more than my father
ever made, or will make. Yeah, teachers have it good! Tell me another one. He
didn't get involved with the UEA because he wanted to maintain its supposed
power, influence or affluence. Teachers have none of those things. All you
"experts" try living with a teachers salary for a while. I have many
memories growing up of my dad putting in a lot of extra hours just so he and his
fellow teachers would at least get enough compensation to survive. Instead of
providing money to private schools, which I doubt needs it, try paying teachers
more for educating your kids.
A Former Teacher | 9:46 a.m. Nov. 2, 2007
Unfortunately, the voucher debate has resulted in mud-slinging particularly at
some of our unsung heroes � our dedicated teachers. One
person wrote: �Maybe all these terrified UEA teachers ought
to start sending their resumes out to private schools. Then again, maybe
that's why they're so afraid--they know they're not good enough
to teach in private schools.�
You obviously do not know that many talented teachers leave the school system because they cannot live on the salaries paid in this state. We rank 38th out of 50 states in teacher salaries. Utah ranks 1 out of 51 (50 states + District of Columbia) with the highest student to teacher ratio of 23+ per teacher. We rank 51st spending the least per student in our public schools.
Compare this with private schools that can afford to have a 10 to 1 ratio with private tuition. These new schools have new equipment and fewer students. But many of the private schools even pay less for the teacher salaries.
Check out the number of English as Second Language students in the private schools? Most have none. How about the number of children with disabilities? Most have one or two students if any.
You obviously do not know that many talented teachers leave the school system because they cannot live on the salaries paid in this state. We rank 38th out of 50 states in teacher salaries. Utah ranks 1 out of 51 (50 states + District of Columbia) with the highest student to teacher ratio of 23+ per teacher. We rank 51st spending the least per student in our public schools.
Compare this with private schools that can afford to have a 10 to 1 ratio with private tuition. These new schools have new equipment and fewer students. But many of the private schools even pay less for the teacher salaries.
Check out the number of English as Second Language students in the private schools? Most have none. How about the number of children with disabilities? Most have one or two students if any.
Believe in Public Education | 10:04 a.m. Nov. 2, 2007
Response to Freedom of Choice:
Yes, we do get it! Yes, Referendum #1 proposes to hold public schools harmless for 5 years. But after 5 years the money will disappear. Utah will continue to grow and more children will enter the public education system, then we receive fewer dollars. Currently many of our school children qualify for free lunch and even free breakfast because their parents cannot afford food let alone tuition for private schools. We will have a greater percentage of students needing ESL teachers, students with disabilities, etc. while children from families with money will go to the private schools with our tax dollars.
Of course, there is no guarantee. We have heard before great promises for the increase in teacher salaries, yet we still receive some of the lowest salaries in all the USA. Our state is ranked the lowest on per student spending and has the highest student to teacher ratio. Our legislature has spent money on roads and transportation needs while neglecting our children. Vouchers is a bandaid approach that won't solve the problems.
Yes, we do get it! Yes, Referendum #1 proposes to hold public schools harmless for 5 years. But after 5 years the money will disappear. Utah will continue to grow and more children will enter the public education system, then we receive fewer dollars. Currently many of our school children qualify for free lunch and even free breakfast because their parents cannot afford food let alone tuition for private schools. We will have a greater percentage of students needing ESL teachers, students with disabilities, etc. while children from families with money will go to the private schools with our tax dollars.
Of course, there is no guarantee. We have heard before great promises for the increase in teacher salaries, yet we still receive some of the lowest salaries in all the USA. Our state is ranked the lowest on per student spending and has the highest student to teacher ratio. Our legislature has spent money on roads and transportation needs while neglecting our children. Vouchers is a bandaid approach that won't solve the problems.
Already Happening | 10:24 a.m. Nov. 2, 2007
As I've looked into the School Voucher, I've realized it comes down to
two things:
1- School Vouchers are technically already in effect for Special Needs Children and the Children who the Public School Fails. The State gives these families money for a "tutor." How much money was just wasted trying to get these students through the public education, when the parents could have gotten a "tutoe" from the beginning?
2- If we vote no on school vouchers, the original problems of too many studnets per class and too little money are still present. Money will have to come from somewhere... Why not money I'm already paying for in the first place? This WILL LEAVE MORE MONEY IN THE SCHOOL!!! Teachers are ALWAYS complaining about too many children in classes and too little money...
Let us, as parents, decide how to raise our children. This was supposed to be a no brainer. That is why our legislature signed the law in the first place!
1- School Vouchers are technically already in effect for Special Needs Children and the Children who the Public School Fails. The State gives these families money for a "tutor." How much money was just wasted trying to get these students through the public education, when the parents could have gotten a "tutoe" from the beginning?
2- If we vote no on school vouchers, the original problems of too many studnets per class and too little money are still present. Money will have to come from somewhere... Why not money I'm already paying for in the first place? This WILL LEAVE MORE MONEY IN THE SCHOOL!!! Teachers are ALWAYS complaining about too many children in classes and too little money...
Let us, as parents, decide how to raise our children. This was supposed to be a no brainer. That is why our legislature signed the law in the first place!
go socialist, vote no on 1 | 8:28 a.m. Nov. 6, 2007
why should the government have complete control over any aspect of our daily
lives? What makes our government experts in the field of education?
I�ve witnessed first hand the effects of Utah schools and
teacher on students... being a senior in high school, I have suffered through
almost 4 years of playing the government school mind games. I don't think
any loving parent would intentionally put their child through this if they had
an alternative choice. Vote yes. Give us choices. Give teachers competition.
.give us capitalism: An economic and political system characterized by a free
market for goods and services and private control of production and consumption.
(Compare socialism and communism.) Our current school system is completely
government regulated, and thats sounds a little like socialism to me... does
that scare anyone else?
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