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Voucher funds limited
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Dave | 3:55 p.m. Oct. 25, 2007
I came here to Utah in the 90's because I felt Utah had one of the best
public school programs in the nation. My assumptions were correct, regardless
of what the statistics seem to claim. My child was able to attend a public
school where there were no drugs being passed out on school grounds, no
violence, no metal detectors. Soon, she will be graduating from high school
with a college degree and will be able to continue her university studies having
obtained her Associates Degree in high school. Since she started grade school,
we attended every teacher conference. We joined the PTA. We volunteered at
school. We were involved in her education both at school and at home. How can
any parent or politician pass the blame onto the public school program and
especially the teachers when the main responsibility rests with the parents? No
wonder public school teachers are so frustrated. They're being blamed for
what parents fail to do. Utah public schools are awesome and need our support,
both financially and verbally. I love the public school program in Utah and
will be forever thankful for moving here because of what they did for my child.
Keith R, Wood | 3:56 p.m. Oct. 25, 2007
How come the anti-voucher people keep ducking the question of EDUCATION?
They talk about money, they try to make those of us who aren't union supporters sound like extremists, they talk about the wealthy and about supporting our schools . . .but NOT ONE WORD about QUALITY OF EDUCATION.
Until union schools can talk about their PERFORMANCE, they don't deserve the protected status they are claiming.
They talk about money, they try to make those of us who aren't union supporters sound like extremists, they talk about the wealthy and about supporting our schools . . .but NOT ONE WORD about QUALITY OF EDUCATION.
Until union schools can talk about their PERFORMANCE, they don't deserve the protected status they are claiming.
Comments continue below
jtm | 3:59 p.m. Oct. 25, 2007
I want to start a private school so I can get free government money to run it!.
Sounds like a pretty good deal to me. And by the way you people ripping on
public education. Make note the United States has more Nobel prize winners than
all countries in the world combined. We have gone to the moon, we have the
greatest economy on earth. 99% of our doctors, scientists, lawyers, engineers,
and Ceo's came out the same public education system you are complaining
about.
Mark | 3:58 p.m. Oct. 25, 2007
The state legislature underfunds public schools, so teachers and some big-hearted parents are forced to pick up the additional costs.
Now it proposes to underfund vouchers for private schools, so all parents can pick up the additional costs.
About the only thing consistent about Utah's education system is "underfunded".
L | 4:11 p.m. Oct. 25, 2007
WOW-At least the DMN knows what gets our attention. As I have tried to read and
understand the 100's of comments, I hate to add one more-but I'm not
sure it has been said yet.
IF we were to come up with a new law for vouchers that would overcome objections about accountability, amounts, populations to be served, costs, what to teach etc., etc. Would you be for vouchers, I wouldn't!
If I choos to take a cab instead of public transit, I wouldn't expect a voucher even though it reduced the rush hour load. If my neighbors & I decided to get together & have a park for our neighborhood I wouldn't expect a voucher from the public parks. If I decide to have a private security service instead of the City Police, I don't expect a voucher to pay part of the cost.
Maybe we should do away with public schools alltogether and go to all private schools. Stop collecting school taxes. I win, I don't have any kids in school!
I think we have decided to have a public school system & tax everyone. Those who don't wantto participate can choose otherwise, BUT not on my dime!
IF we were to come up with a new law for vouchers that would overcome objections about accountability, amounts, populations to be served, costs, what to teach etc., etc. Would you be for vouchers, I wouldn't!
If I choos to take a cab instead of public transit, I wouldn't expect a voucher even though it reduced the rush hour load. If my neighbors & I decided to get together & have a park for our neighborhood I wouldn't expect a voucher from the public parks. If I decide to have a private security service instead of the City Police, I don't expect a voucher to pay part of the cost.
Maybe we should do away with public schools alltogether and go to all private schools. Stop collecting school taxes. I win, I don't have any kids in school!
I think we have decided to have a public school system & tax everyone. Those who don't wantto participate can choose otherwise, BUT not on my dime!
Barbara | 4:24 p.m. Oct. 25, 2007
I have talked to a number of my friends, family members, and acquaintances about
the voucher proposal, and I have been dismayed at how uninformed many of them
are. NONE had read the voter information pamphlet. Those who are pro-voucher
admitted they are not so much for vouchers, as wanting to send a message against
the NEA, waste in government, and their dissatisfaction with high property
taxes. This shouldn't be a referendum against the government, the
teacher's union, or property taxes. If people truly want to send a
message, there are other ways to do so without hurting public education.
I have a couple of questions, maybe someone can answer...If a child attends a private school that charges less for tuition than the the amount of the voucher the child is eligible for, what happens to the extra money? Do the schools get to keep it, or the parents?
Can private schools, run by polygamists, in polygamist communities get voucher money? They probably can because all the other private religious schools can accept voucher money. I am opposed to taxpayers subsidizing private religious schools, so I will be voting NO!
I have a couple of questions, maybe someone can answer...If a child attends a private school that charges less for tuition than the the amount of the voucher the child is eligible for, what happens to the extra money? Do the schools get to keep it, or the parents?
Can private schools, run by polygamists, in polygamist communities get voucher money? They probably can because all the other private religious schools can accept voucher money. I am opposed to taxpayers subsidizing private religious schools, so I will be voting NO!
Jami | 4:45 p.m. Oct. 25, 2007
I for one am voting yes for Vouchers. I think the UEA has too much power. I
also think that there are a lot of teachers who are great and wonderful, but I
also think there are some who aren't. I think it's time that we make
teachers accountable for what they do and teach. I think the Voucher system
will up the anty in public schools and hopefully improve the public schools. I
don't forsee myself putting my children in private school. So far the
public school system is working for us. But I know it doesn't work for
all. Parents should have a say in where their children go to school, what they
learn and, and not have to give an arm and a leg to do so. Parents should
choose for their children, not the UEA and not hte NEA.
mel | 4:58 p.m. Oct. 25, 2007
There is one big flaw when people argue that the voucher will help the lower
classes. That may be true if the lower class only has one child per family.
But as we all know - the family size in Utah is over 3 (children). The lowest
cost of a private education I have heard is around $3800.00. I don't see
the very poor coming up with even 800.00 dollars per child extra.
I also get a little affended when I hear the public schools aren't doing a good job. I don't think the problem lies with the educator as much as with the parents who don't have the time to work with their children to make sure they are getting the most out of their education. I have three who have graduated from OHS and on their ACT scores (using a national test) they received 34, 29 and 26. Not too bad.
I don't believe a private education is going to make much of a difference, on how a student performs, if there isn't an increased effort.
I also get a little affended when I hear the public schools aren't doing a good job. I don't think the problem lies with the educator as much as with the parents who don't have the time to work with their children to make sure they are getting the most out of their education. I have three who have graduated from OHS and on their ACT scores (using a national test) they received 34, 29 and 26. Not too bad.
I don't believe a private education is going to make much of a difference, on how a student performs, if there isn't an increased effort.
Adam Smith | 5:29 p.m. Oct. 25, 2007
jtm..I'd rather let private industry develop better and more innovative
ways to achieve results as opposed to dumping more money into the Abyss,
otherwise known as THE PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM, because the private school is
focused on the kids, not the public school system that exists to benefit itself
first, kids second.
dcc | 5:40 p.m. Oct. 25, 2007
Adam, I don't have kids so don't pay anything to me for education.
dcc what? The money for vouchers has to come from somewhere. Where is it coming from? If it's coming from public funds then it is my money too and I'm not getting anything back for having no kids in the system.
dcc what? The money for vouchers has to come from somewhere. Where is it coming from? If it's coming from public funds then it is my money too and I'm not getting anything back for having no kids in the system.
dave | 5:43 p.m. Oct. 25, 2007
I am curious as to why all of the people who think a private education is so
much better than a public education, would want to vote for vouchers. The
students they are trying so hard to get away from in the public schools will now
join them in the private schools and disrupt your exclusive club. I have a
public education and I have a great job. I could afford to send my children to
a private school, but choose to allow my children to learn from others who may
be different than them. If you assist your child with their homework your
children will learn. Take the time to help your children and help the public
school that your children attend. You would be suprised how you involvement may
help your child and others.
Ryan | 5:45 p.m. Oct. 25, 2007
I'm for vouchers.
Competition improves quality. Providers of a service will have to improve to compete. So if you use a voucher or stay in a public school you will benefit. Teachers will also benefit. If you're a good teacher there will be more competition for your services. That means mo' money. It does make sense for teacher unions and poor teachers to oppose vouchers.
One comment from earlier today pointed out that quality public schools are not our goal. Our goal is well educated children. Quality schools, be they public or private, help reach this end. Competition improves quality and cost. You only need to see what happened to long distance rates once competition started.
In short, capitalism works, socialism doesn't. Vote no to a Government monopoly and its inherent inefficacy.
Competition improves quality. Providers of a service will have to improve to compete. So if you use a voucher or stay in a public school you will benefit. Teachers will also benefit. If you're a good teacher there will be more competition for your services. That means mo' money. It does make sense for teacher unions and poor teachers to oppose vouchers.
One comment from earlier today pointed out that quality public schools are not our goal. Our goal is well educated children. Quality schools, be they public or private, help reach this end. Competition improves quality and cost. You only need to see what happened to long distance rates once competition started.
In short, capitalism works, socialism doesn't. Vote no to a Government monopoly and its inherent inefficacy.
Utah Hypocrites | 5:56 p.m. Oct. 25, 2007
At some point we should kick most Utahns out of the Republican party. Why should
the government pay for people to leave our public schools for a private school?
Maybe they are on the same bandwagon as the Hilary $5,000 per kid payment. Is
taking money from the government to benefit your lifestyle a Republican value?
It sounds like another welfare program to punish the teacher unions. Maybe we
should just abolish public schools are together.
We pay taxes to fund our public schools. Sure they are underfunded and overcrowded, but the voucher issue has to be the worst solution to this problem. If we paid teachers more money, dumped all the administrators, and cut sports programs, we could solve most of our problems. Maybe they should take the money that is set aside for the vouchers and pay for a privately run sports program for the schools. That could free up some money.
Also why do we want to give vouchers to all the polygamists to teach their kids how to break the law? That seems like a waste of MY tax dollars.
We pay taxes to fund our public schools. Sure they are underfunded and overcrowded, but the voucher issue has to be the worst solution to this problem. If we paid teachers more money, dumped all the administrators, and cut sports programs, we could solve most of our problems. Maybe they should take the money that is set aside for the vouchers and pay for a privately run sports program for the schools. That could free up some money.
Also why do we want to give vouchers to all the polygamists to teach their kids how to break the law? That seems like a waste of MY tax dollars.
paul | 6:17 p.m. Oct. 25, 2007
I guess if attending a private school justifies your lack of interest in you own
childs education then you should vote for vouchers. When your child struggles at
public schools it is easy to blame the system. My question is who will you
blame when your child struggles in private school? Maybe you should look in the
mirror. Your childs success in school and in life are a result of your interest
in your childs life and education. If you are involved at the publice shcools
your children will know it and they will have a better chance at success. If
you are not involved they will struggle. Do you really think your childrens
study habits and abilities are taught in school, or are they taught at home?
The grass is not always greener on the other side.
The grass is not always greener on the other side.
HM | 8:07 p.m. Oct. 25, 2007
Bobby, I disagree with you 100 percent. I put my childrens education first and
it can be done with the income stated. You take out second morgages, you give up
new cars, cloths, vactions etc.
I did it and so can anyone else. I would have loved to have even the 500 dollar help. My wife and I felt we had no other choice given the poor performance of the Utah schools, Jordan school district mostly. I do not see this as a hand out to the rich, buth rather help for anyone that really wants the choice.
I did it and so can anyone else. I would have loved to have even the 500 dollar help. My wife and I felt we had no other choice given the poor performance of the Utah schools, Jordan school district mostly. I do not see this as a hand out to the rich, buth rather help for anyone that really wants the choice.
Jason Jones | 9:47 p.m. Oct. 25, 2007
Vouchers will do noting,
First there is not enougph supply of private schools and with the increased demand with the voucher the price will climb...only the rich will be able to send their kids to private school. private schools will raise the price....
First there is not enougph supply of private schools and with the increased demand with the voucher the price will climb...only the rich will be able to send their kids to private school. private schools will raise the price....
Steve Rizzuto | 9:57 p.m. Oct. 25, 2007
This whole thing is a pandora's box.
Voting NO | 10:25 p.m. Oct. 25, 2007
Referendum 1 does not offer parents any new choice. Kids in our neighborhood
are split among 4-5 different elementary schools! Different families have
chosen different public schools. (When I was young, I went to the same
elementary school with all my neighbor friends. How silly were we!)
Referendum 1 is about $$ (big surprise). Private schools are marketing themselves through Ref 1. As Economics 101 said, when the demand to enter private schools increases, they will find some reason to increase their cost - vouchers will only increase demand.
Finally, I find the PCE's argument that K-8 public schools are so troubled, but student's needs can be met just fine in grades 9-12 to be quite ridiculous!
This is all about increasing $$ for private schools - with a little help from our government.
Utah needs to focus on providing incentives and budget to attract and retain better teachers. The grass is not greener in the private school. Ref 1 is not a good solution.
Referendum 1 is about $$ (big surprise). Private schools are marketing themselves through Ref 1. As Economics 101 said, when the demand to enter private schools increases, they will find some reason to increase their cost - vouchers will only increase demand.
Finally, I find the PCE's argument that K-8 public schools are so troubled, but student's needs can be met just fine in grades 9-12 to be quite ridiculous!
This is all about increasing $$ for private schools - with a little help from our government.
Utah needs to focus on providing incentives and budget to attract and retain better teachers. The grass is not greener in the private school. Ref 1 is not a good solution.
Perplexed | 10:46 p.m. Oct. 25, 2007
I hear all the rational on each side of this divisive issue, but to me it comes
down to: Who do I think can best reform and make the needed changes in the
school system, government/monopoly or the private sector. I believe that free
enterprise will cause innovation. Free enterprise will tap the abilities of
willing community members to bring private capital to a system that public
education never will be able to match. When was the last time you heard of
someone leaving some large estate to the government. If this goes down to
defeat, as it very well may, I think the legislators who approved this measure
may be a little slow to hear the pleas from the Education Community for more
money. Most of the teachers in the system are hard working, which is not the
issue. The issue is, if you think the system is working fine, then vote against
it, if you think it needs some reform and parents need more voice in their
children�s educational choices then vote for it.
Ben | 10:57 p.m. Oct. 25, 2007
In order for a voucher system to have a major impact on the quality of
education, the vouchers for poorer kids need to be closer to the full amount
allocated to each child. Vouchers should be more like 7K for poor kids, 4K for
middle class kids and 0 for the very affluent. I'm in favor of vouchers
because they take power away from the teachers unions which protect bad teachers
and give power to parents who should have the choice to move their kids out of
classrooms or schools that are under-performing.
Adam Smith | 7:31 a.m. Oct. 26, 2007
Having lived in outside of Utah where public schools are better than in Utah, I
have direct experience with private schools. So, here are the facts:
-Money makes little difference in results with a minimum amount, otherwise kids today would be off the charts compared to 40 years ago.
-Private school kids outscore public on standardized tests. In fact, the SAT's are averaged with public school kids to inflate the scores.
-Most public school teachers either want to send their kids to private schools, or do if they can afford to.
-Private schools are not for all kids, but neither are public.
-Public schools have reduced their standards, have have lost their authority over the kids.
-Public schools have become a self-edifying institutional monopoly.
-Kids are less educated today than 40 years ago..fact
-Private schools have higher standards.
-The fact is that with a voucher $4500 stays in the public school for 5 years for each parent that accepts a voucher.what a windfall!
-Public schools are focused on skills building, not an educated citizenry..school to work programs illustrate this.
-Every school district is one of sameness...just a factory model..nothing unique for kids that need something different.
-Money makes little difference in results with a minimum amount, otherwise kids today would be off the charts compared to 40 years ago.
-Private school kids outscore public on standardized tests. In fact, the SAT's are averaged with public school kids to inflate the scores.
-Most public school teachers either want to send their kids to private schools, or do if they can afford to.
-Private schools are not for all kids, but neither are public.
-Public schools have reduced their standards, have have lost their authority over the kids.
-Public schools have become a self-edifying institutional monopoly.
-Kids are less educated today than 40 years ago..fact
-Private schools have higher standards.
-The fact is that with a voucher $4500 stays in the public school for 5 years for each parent that accepts a voucher.what a windfall!
-Public schools are focused on skills building, not an educated citizenry..school to work programs illustrate this.
-Every school district is one of sameness...just a factory model..nothing unique for kids that need something different.
Dave | 9:04 a.m. Oct. 26, 2007
It seems that the pro-voucher push has been, from the beginning, "Parents
know what's best for their child." I agree with that notion
completely. What I find odd is the very group claiming parents are smart enough
to know what's best is the same group who apparently think we are so
ignorant that we can't understand the issues and cast an intelligent
vote.
Case in point: The Oreo Cookie ad. Seriously! The tone and visuals of the ad come across as if it's addressed to pre-schoolers! Another case in point: Ads suggesting we should vote for vouchers simply because Huntsman backs them. Do you honestly think we're going to surrender our freedom to think and reason and become submissive to every whim of the governor? Don't forget: It's the voice of the people that keep politicians straight. Lastly: Ads suggesting that liberals are the only group opposed to vouchers. News flash! There are a vast majority of voucher opponents who are conservative Republicans.
I may not have authored books but I am certainly wise enough to understand the issues without the condescending cookie commercials. I've read HB148 and understand it without the use of Oreos. I'm voting NO.
Case in point: The Oreo Cookie ad. Seriously! The tone and visuals of the ad come across as if it's addressed to pre-schoolers! Another case in point: Ads suggesting we should vote for vouchers simply because Huntsman backs them. Do you honestly think we're going to surrender our freedom to think and reason and become submissive to every whim of the governor? Don't forget: It's the voice of the people that keep politicians straight. Lastly: Ads suggesting that liberals are the only group opposed to vouchers. News flash! There are a vast majority of voucher opponents who are conservative Republicans.
I may not have authored books but I am certainly wise enough to understand the issues without the condescending cookie commercials. I've read HB148 and understand it without the use of Oreos. I'm voting NO.
Homer S. | 10:30 a.m. Oct. 26, 2007
I think everyone who brings up the free enterprise system needs to go back to
their high school economic class. Allowing the government to subsidise private
schooling isn't a capitalistic model. Why should the government be involved
in creating more demand for private schools? It isn't Adam Smith, it is
more like John Keynes. A correct capitalism arguement would be to abolish all
public schools and create a true supply and demand market for education.
I'm a Republican and I'm tired of the fake Utah conservatives that hide behind capitalism when it is convenient for them, but in reality they want as many government sponsered programs as possible. I think that explains why so many Utahns vote to raise their taxes for transportaton, arts and culture, and other government projects. Hypocrites!
The voucher bill is flawed because the amount of money being givem in the voucher will not change the school system. It helps those already in private school. Parental involvement is what makes your kid's education valuable. It doesn't matter what school you go to. Maybe all the pro-voucher people should create a private school and they use the money spent on this election to pay for it.
I'm a Republican and I'm tired of the fake Utah conservatives that hide behind capitalism when it is convenient for them, but in reality they want as many government sponsered programs as possible. I think that explains why so many Utahns vote to raise their taxes for transportaton, arts and culture, and other government projects. Hypocrites!
The voucher bill is flawed because the amount of money being givem in the voucher will not change the school system. It helps those already in private school. Parental involvement is what makes your kid's education valuable. It doesn't matter what school you go to. Maybe all the pro-voucher people should create a private school and they use the money spent on this election to pay for it.
BD | 10:38 a.m. Oct. 26, 2007
I hope every voter keeps things in perspective when November 6 rolls around.
We are NOT voting on whether or not public schools need improvement.
We are NOT voting on whether or not private schools have merit.
We are NOT voting on parental choice in schools.
We ARE voting on whether or not we should inact House Bill 148 which would provide publicly funded assistance to offset the cost of private school tuition.
I've seen the television documentaries and news stories regarding the troubled schools in America. There is no question that many public schools (mostly in larger cities like LA and Chicago as well as their suburbs) have problems. We are NOT voting for a solution to problems that exist in other parts of the country. We ARE voting on a UTAH issue.
The question at hand is: Do Utah voters feel that the private school tuition assistance program, as outlined in House Bill 148, will help Utah's children and be of benefit to the citizens of this state?
We are NOT voting on whether or not public schools need improvement.
We are NOT voting on whether or not private schools have merit.
We are NOT voting on parental choice in schools.
We ARE voting on whether or not we should inact House Bill 148 which would provide publicly funded assistance to offset the cost of private school tuition.
I've seen the television documentaries and news stories regarding the troubled schools in America. There is no question that many public schools (mostly in larger cities like LA and Chicago as well as their suburbs) have problems. We are NOT voting for a solution to problems that exist in other parts of the country. We ARE voting on a UTAH issue.
The question at hand is: Do Utah voters feel that the private school tuition assistance program, as outlined in House Bill 148, will help Utah's children and be of benefit to the citizens of this state?
MFM | 11:14 a.m. Oct. 26, 2007
Re: UEA opposition to Referendum 1
Wake up people! Taxpayers are spending much more in Administrative costs....school districts should be consolidated....not split up into smaller entities. More money should go to the classrooms, not to administrators. The UEA and and all who are gravy-training their rhetoric are just trying to feather their own nests. How about New Jersey, New York, Washington, D.C. and other states who have a much higher per pupil amount available? They do not better educate their children. I have not seen any correlation between better results by the amount of taxes earmarked for K-12 education. Unfortunately about 75% of the people are either a teacher, related to a teacher, UEA official or knows one...therefore closed minds will probably defeat the ballot referendum. The no arguments are not convincing. Vote YES! Another thing...the students who are unable to educated in a regular classroom environment should fall under the state social welfare system, and not the education budget.
Wake up people! Taxpayers are spending much more in Administrative costs....school districts should be consolidated....not split up into smaller entities. More money should go to the classrooms, not to administrators. The UEA and and all who are gravy-training their rhetoric are just trying to feather their own nests. How about New Jersey, New York, Washington, D.C. and other states who have a much higher per pupil amount available? They do not better educate their children. I have not seen any correlation between better results by the amount of taxes earmarked for K-12 education. Unfortunately about 75% of the people are either a teacher, related to a teacher, UEA official or knows one...therefore closed minds will probably defeat the ballot referendum. The no arguments are not convincing. Vote YES! Another thing...the students who are unable to educated in a regular classroom environment should fall under the state social welfare system, and not the education budget.
The Union got ya! | 1:44 p.m. Oct. 26, 2007
The Anti-voucher folks (mostly UEA leaders and some career school employees)
have everyone so upset, most folks are MISSING THE POINT:
This is not the final word on the 2 bills our elected leaders passed and signed: IT'S A FIVE-YEAR TEST -- CAN BE REVERSED/CANCELLED IF IT FAILS.
ALL financial projections beyond that are JUST ASSUMPTIONS -- somebody's crystal ball of the future.
Utah schools are good enough - for a majority of our kids - but are ALSO failing a significant percentage, who either
-are bored stiff with group-style education or
-don't fit with the teaching style offered by many of those 'accredited' teachers.
Offering to spend LESS THAN 1/2% compared to the Education Budget to encourage some of those kids out of my classroom is public education MONEY WELL SPENT.
The remaining kids (many of whom are just there to socialize) get a better education.
We pay high taxes per TAXPAYER, but spend near the least per STUDENT, because we have so many kids!
Vouchers motivate people to improve that.
And, the "but you stupid 'poor people' might not be able to afford it" argument is embarrassingly condescending.
Please, for the kids' sake, vote Yes for Ref1.
This is not the final word on the 2 bills our elected leaders passed and signed: IT'S A FIVE-YEAR TEST -- CAN BE REVERSED/CANCELLED IF IT FAILS.
ALL financial projections beyond that are JUST ASSUMPTIONS -- somebody's crystal ball of the future.
Utah schools are good enough - for a majority of our kids - but are ALSO failing a significant percentage, who either
-are bored stiff with group-style education or
-don't fit with the teaching style offered by many of those 'accredited' teachers.
Offering to spend LESS THAN 1/2% compared to the Education Budget to encourage some of those kids out of my classroom is public education MONEY WELL SPENT.
The remaining kids (many of whom are just there to socialize) get a better education.
We pay high taxes per TAXPAYER, but spend near the least per STUDENT, because we have so many kids!
Vouchers motivate people to improve that.
And, the "but you stupid 'poor people' might not be able to afford it" argument is embarrassingly condescending.
Please, for the kids' sake, vote Yes for Ref1.
SL | 2:18 p.m. Oct. 26, 2007
Thanks, Deseret News, for a helpful report that took a lot of phone calls.
This voucher proposal is the largest, universal voucher program in the US of A. And in Utah where expenditure is the smallest per pupil!
Let's deep six it.
This voucher proposal is the largest, universal voucher program in the US of A. And in Utah where expenditure is the smallest per pupil!
Let's deep six it.
Alan | 3:41 p.m. Oct. 26, 2007
Speaking as a private school parent I can say that many of the parents of the
children who attend the school mine do are opponents to the vouchers as they
feel that the amount of money they are paying should give them a more exlusive
outlet for their childrens education. Additionally they are quite pleased that
the private school in question will not accept vouchers. Personally I'm
neutral on the matter, but I can see the argument.
Administrative costs | 3:43 p.m. Oct. 26, 2007
Utah has the lowest administrative costs per student in the United States. Utah
spends 46$ per student on administration. The national average is $146 per
student. .4% of Utah's public school employees are administrators. The
national average is 1.1%. Sources: U.S. Census, National Center for Education
Statistics.
To Adam Smith:
In your last post your facts are really subjective. You claim "most public school teachers want their kids in private school" Where in the world did you come up with that one.
When you're quoting suppossed facts, you need some sources, not just your opinion!
To Adam Smith:
In your last post your facts are really subjective. You claim "most public school teachers want their kids in private school" Where in the world did you come up with that one.
When you're quoting suppossed facts, you need some sources, not just your opinion!
Parents for Better Education | 4:00 p.m. Oct. 26, 2007
2 simple reasons our family is voting to offer re-routing some of our taxes to
Kids who need a better alternative:
1) Teachers in our crowded classrooms are overloaded (even the good ones) by administrative, babysitting, and legal mandates more than teaching. They can't meet the individual learning needs and interests of many students including some of our own offspring. Vouchers will give at least some families the ability to go to a more suitable school, and Everyone Wins.
2) The phony arguments by certain educational 'leaders' have shown us they are raising highly emotional fears for no rational reason. They seem satisfied with averages, not individual kids.
Neither side has done a good job explaining the background of education funding and what will change with vouchers, and most media coverage, even this article, is slanted to cast doubts.
It's a tiny amount of money that will go a long way to make public schools better, too.
Don't let 'em confuse ya!
Vote for possibilities!
Vote for ONE!
1) Teachers in our crowded classrooms are overloaded (even the good ones) by administrative, babysitting, and legal mandates more than teaching. They can't meet the individual learning needs and interests of many students including some of our own offspring. Vouchers will give at least some families the ability to go to a more suitable school, and Everyone Wins.
2) The phony arguments by certain educational 'leaders' have shown us they are raising highly emotional fears for no rational reason. They seem satisfied with averages, not individual kids.
Neither side has done a good job explaining the background of education funding and what will change with vouchers, and most media coverage, even this article, is slanted to cast doubts.
It's a tiny amount of money that will go a long way to make public schools better, too.
Don't let 'em confuse ya!
Vote for possibilities!
Vote for ONE!
Involved Parent | 6:03 p.m. Oct. 26, 2007
I agree that many of the problems found in our public school system come from
lack of parent involvement, rather than with the school. However, I am a very
involved parent, spending many hours at the public school, and I am still not
happy with the education my children receive. My children have great teachers,
but their hands are tied in many areas where a private school may be able to
help. Even though a voucher would not pay all of my children's tuition,
any amount would be greatly appreciated. And even though there are no private
schools near my home, I would hope that the voucher program would encourage some
to be established. As for the accountability issue, surely a school would be
subject to the same accountability that any business has to face. If you
provide good quality for a good price, then you have good business, and if not
then you go under. The consumers will provide the accountability in the private
schools. And as for the religious issue, how is my using vouchers to attend a
religious school different from using a Pell Grant to attend BYU?
Let's not be sued | 1:14 a.m. Oct. 27, 2007
I just wonder if Gov Huntsman and all of our other representatives on capital
hill have thought about the expense we (as tax payers) are going to have to pay
to lawyers if this bill is passed. As soon as somone uses this voucher money to
enroll in Judge Memorial or an LDS school (etc), we (the state of UTAH) are
going to be sued by the ACLU. (You know they will!!) Then we are going to have
to defend our position on vouchers. It could be a couple of million more $.
I'm voting AGAINST. I'm sick of seeing our tax dollars wasted.
Think Again | 10:50 p.m. Oct. 27, 2007
Vouchers are a Pandora's Box.
Not only will legitimate, well-run private schools spring up now that there is more funding available for them, but so will fraudulent, parasitic, exploitative, extreme schools.
And so voucher funding will be abused, which will prompt legal battles, and politicking and legislation to place further restrictions on them.
Hence, with Government funding comes Government "strings" and regulations and oversight. If you understand the evolution of the "free market" system and the role of the SEC, then you know that is where it is heading.
Since most people who support vouchers are ultra-conservative, you would think you would want to AVOID getting the government involved in Church-sponsored and private schools. But that is exactly what you are doing with vouchers!
Not only will legitimate, well-run private schools spring up now that there is more funding available for them, but so will fraudulent, parasitic, exploitative, extreme schools.
And so voucher funding will be abused, which will prompt legal battles, and politicking and legislation to place further restrictions on them.
Hence, with Government funding comes Government "strings" and regulations and oversight. If you understand the evolution of the "free market" system and the role of the SEC, then you know that is where it is heading.
Since most people who support vouchers are ultra-conservative, you would think you would want to AVOID getting the government involved in Church-sponsored and private schools. But that is exactly what you are doing with vouchers!
Ghandi Went to school where? | 11:00 p.m. Oct. 27, 2007
Why don't we take the money that would otherwise go to vouchers and spend
it on more innovative forms of education: computer-based, distance, multi-media,
experiential, progressive, advanced...
Children are NATURAL, AUTOMATIC LEARNERS! The only thing keeping them from really learning is a convoluted curriculum that is at least 30 years behind the rapidly growing knowledge base of our society.
US students are behind so many other nations in CONTENT more than anything. Vouchers won't help that. Update the CONTENT - revise the curriculum, consolidate the substance of education. Don't waste money on fragmenting, provincializing, and retrograding US education by vouchers!
Children are NATURAL, AUTOMATIC LEARNERS! The only thing keeping them from really learning is a convoluted curriculum that is at least 30 years behind the rapidly growing knowledge base of our society.
US students are behind so many other nations in CONTENT more than anything. Vouchers won't help that. Update the CONTENT - revise the curriculum, consolidate the substance of education. Don't waste money on fragmenting, provincializing, and retrograding US education by vouchers!
Vouchers would bring innovation | 9:22 p.m. Oct. 28, 2007
Our universities are the envy of the world. The reason for that is that public
universities and private universities all compete and that healthy competition
makes them all more responsive to what consumers want. Pell Grants and loans
allow lower-income individuals to use government money at either public or
private universities (basically, it's a voucher on the university
level).
A competitive system on the K-12 level will also lead to innovation (like those mentioned in the above comment), increased responsiveness to consumer needs (in this case parents), and efficiency. Vouchers will bring healthy competition to education. Parents will choose schools that best meet their children's needs and schools will respond to the demand. Supply meets demand in a competitive system.
A competitive system on the K-12 level will also lead to innovation (like those mentioned in the above comment), increased responsiveness to consumer needs (in this case parents), and efficiency. Vouchers will bring healthy competition to education. Parents will choose schools that best meet their children's needs and schools will respond to the demand. Supply meets demand in a competitive system.
JR | 7:47 a.m. Oct. 29, 2007
There is a large difference between a PELL Grant and a voucher. Colleges and
Universities don't educate everyone. Public schools do. No child in
America is denied the chance for an education in grades K - 12, without any cost
to the family, though our public school system. If a family wants more than
what public schools offer then they pay out of their own pocket.
With the voucher program, what is taking place is an otherwise "free" (to the student) government funded education is being turned down because it supposedly isn't good enough. With a PELL Grant, there is no fully paid post high school education that is being turned down.
Comparing a PELL Grant to a voucher is an apples and oranges comparison. To those who are LDS, a voucher is more like asking the bishop for cash so a welfare recipient can shop at Maceys instead of the free items available at the Bishop's Storehouse because they don't like the Deseret brand.
Our public education system isn't intended to be perfect. It's intent is to provide equal opportunity for all. Isn't that one of the founding principles of this great nation?
With the voucher program, what is taking place is an otherwise "free" (to the student) government funded education is being turned down because it supposedly isn't good enough. With a PELL Grant, there is no fully paid post high school education that is being turned down.
Comparing a PELL Grant to a voucher is an apples and oranges comparison. To those who are LDS, a voucher is more like asking the bishop for cash so a welfare recipient can shop at Maceys instead of the free items available at the Bishop's Storehouse because they don't like the Deseret brand.
Our public education system isn't intended to be perfect. It's intent is to provide equal opportunity for all. Isn't that one of the founding principles of this great nation?
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I spent 25 years working in the engineering world before deciding to become a teacher. I saw the problems that have developed and determined to do something about them. My solution was to become a teacher and make a difference. I can't change the world, but I can darn sure change one classroom - and I do.
I hear others talking about public schools and what should be done. Vouchers are the latest fad/solution.
Vouchers represent a change. The common wisdom being espoused is that action of some kind is required. I agree that something must be done, but it should not be change just for the sake of change. Activity must not be confused with accomplishment. We've got to do the hard work, figure out what is truly going to be effective, and then do it.
Vouchers are not going to improve education. They won't offer any more choice. They will only cost us more money and lower the overall quality of our public schools.
If you want to improve education in the State of Utah, the answer is drop-dead simple: pay teachers a professional wage and expect professional performance.