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Debate: 'Does God exist?'
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Agki | 4:20 a.m. Oct. 13, 2007
The author alleges that "the two camps rarely try to understand each
other." From the atheist side, this is simply not true. Many, if not most,
atheists started out in religious contexts of family, school (yes, even
"secular" public school), and friends. Their upbringings were infused
with gods and religion so they understood it just as well as their theist
relatives and friends did. At some point, many of us (but not me, I never
believed in either the Hairy Thunderer or the Cosmic Muffin and I understood
that when I was 8 years old) went through an intellectual or emotional crises
that caused us to reject the idea of gods.
Alan Robinson | 5:09 a.m. Oct. 13, 2007
God exists to those of us who want him to!! Regardless of your religious
affiliations he exists and we see him in those leaders of our church that we
belong to. We believe that everything that they do is 'inspired'. We
believe he answers prayers because no matter what the answer is we
'fit' it into the situation. I.e.; 'He died because God called
him home for a special mission there, he survived because he has a mission here
or he�s a vegetable because God is testing our faith and
compassion'. I think that in reality most people really believe in fate
more than God because whatever happens we figure it was meant to be. God wished
it so! He also exists so that we can prove that our church is right and yours is
wrong and 'wait till you die, you'll find out I was right!' One
thing that I absolutely know is........ that NO ONE knows for sure if God
exists!! The best that we can have is hope and faith! According to the
scriptures.
Comments continue below
Anonymous | 5:21 a.m. Oct. 13, 2007
I had to take an ethics class at UVSC and thought I would get someone like
Keller. Instead, I got Mark. I thank God he was the teacher. When will a
debate like this occur at UVSC?
Curt
Curt
Loose Footing | 7:46 a.m. Oct. 13, 2007
It's interesting that the majority of ex-mormons chose to not believe in
God rather than looking for another faith. I suppose it's easier to just
stop believing than it is to take those huge steps backwards and start believing
in creedal christianity which is historically absurd to rely on or trust in
since it's based off of pagan interpretations of an incomplete
"Bible". I do think that Mr. Keller is missing the point of God or
the meaning of life if he's asking for "proof" that God exists.
I guess it would have been easier to never have left home, never have gotten a
job, and never have had any responsibilities in my life. But venturing out and
exersising faith and trust that their is someone out there which made us and
gives us real meaning for being here is the most rational thought I have. I
would rather think that, than look at a mosquito on my arm and say to myself
that there really is no difference between it and I, other than species.
Wanting proof, or else, is as infantile as my 7 year old walking into Wal Mart
DEMANDING me to buy him everything he wants.
Believer | 8:24 a.m. Oct. 13, 2007
Now, even Darwin is a believer !
Ken Baguley | 8:36 a.m. Oct. 13, 2007
The view of the Celestial bodies discovered today by the Hubble Telescope should
make one wonder about how such creations came to be. Nothing comes from nothing
is true, however; something can come from something. The elements are eternal
and given God organized the elements into what we now see, both completed and in
process of completion, how can this on-going process be denied that there
isn't some order, creator or God in control of this process. How else can
this be. Big Bang? Psshaw? If one is to know spiritual things, he must have
Faith in the One Creator and learn about Him...Only then can one KNOW the truth.
Richard | 8:41 a.m. Oct. 13, 2007
I wonder if this debate is going to accomplish anything. I think a more
interesting topic would be: "Does the belief in the existence of God
increase or decrease one's respect for human life?"
For the atheist, this life is all there is. There is no life after one's death. So you might think that every life would be viewed as a precious thing that must be preserved and lengthened at all costs. Yet a lack of belief in God seems to do the opposite. Life is just something that has happened by chance and if it comes or goes, no big deal. Each human life is looked upon as of no greater worth than every other form of life. In fact, if that human life threatens the environment or puts pressure on an endangered species, the human life is looked upon as a negative thing.
On the other side, many see an eternal view of the human soul may lead the believer into thinking mortal life is not all that precious either. If one dies, they have merely moved on to the next phase.
These views affect the topics of abortion, death penalty, euthanasia, the environment, and population control.
For the atheist, this life is all there is. There is no life after one's death. So you might think that every life would be viewed as a precious thing that must be preserved and lengthened at all costs. Yet a lack of belief in God seems to do the opposite. Life is just something that has happened by chance and if it comes or goes, no big deal. Each human life is looked upon as of no greater worth than every other form of life. In fact, if that human life threatens the environment or puts pressure on an endangered species, the human life is looked upon as a negative thing.
On the other side, many see an eternal view of the human soul may lead the believer into thinking mortal life is not all that precious either. If one dies, they have merely moved on to the next phase.
These views affect the topics of abortion, death penalty, euthanasia, the environment, and population control.
Tank | 8:52 a.m. Oct. 13, 2007
See Al Gore article, this issue.
Atheists=Afraid | 9:03 a.m. Oct. 13, 2007
What a ridiculous article! This Keller guy is lame. Glad to know that our tax
dollars are funding this pretender. What a shame!
Brad Anderson | 10:30 a.m. Oct. 13, 2007
First of all, who wrote the Bible? First hand experiences are really worthless
in a book written so long ago. Anecdotal evidence isn't really evidence at
all. Rent "The God that wasn't there."
I never chose to NOT believe in God. Did you choose to not believe in Santa Claus? You can choose to look into the evidence, but what I believe isn't a choice. Did my life lose meaning? Not one bit. I think the idea of living forever is great! I just don't have any good reason to believe that. Do I think you are a fool for believing in God? No. If having a God gives you the only meaning in your life I think that is sad. Life is wonderful, and full of meaning with or without a god.
My life, my values, my happiness and purpose didn't change when I lost belief in a God. Remember, I'm only Atheist to ONE more God than you are. Needing proof before I commit my life to something is in NO WAY infantile.
Believe in God, that's great. Just don't think Atheists are sad and cynical. I am happier now, than I have ever been. (Maybe It's Satan.)
I never chose to NOT believe in God. Did you choose to not believe in Santa Claus? You can choose to look into the evidence, but what I believe isn't a choice. Did my life lose meaning? Not one bit. I think the idea of living forever is great! I just don't have any good reason to believe that. Do I think you are a fool for believing in God? No. If having a God gives you the only meaning in your life I think that is sad. Life is wonderful, and full of meaning with or without a god.
My life, my values, my happiness and purpose didn't change when I lost belief in a God. Remember, I'm only Atheist to ONE more God than you are. Needing proof before I commit my life to something is in NO WAY infantile.
Believe in God, that's great. Just don't think Atheists are sad and cynical. I am happier now, than I have ever been. (Maybe It's Satan.)
Don't forget "Deists" | 10:32 a.m. Oct. 13, 2007
Much of the world is acutally a "Deist" such as myself. I think that
some of the people that actually claim to be "Atheists" are actually
this. I believe this is because there are many people that don't know how
to describe it so I will try.
I believe in "God", but not in any particular religious form. All religions have "good feelings" about them in one way or another. This is because "God" is the center of everything. "God" is our "ground of being". "God" wants us to love, and to simply be.
I love people that are "Theists" as well as "Atheists" because God would want this. We are never going to all agree and that in itself tells us something. A loving "God" would not have the chaos that there is in the world and religion. "God" is not involved in our every day doings.
I believe in "God", but not in any particular religious form. All religions have "good feelings" about them in one way or another. This is because "God" is the center of everything. "God" is our "ground of being". "God" wants us to love, and to simply be.
I love people that are "Theists" as well as "Atheists" because God would want this. We are never going to all agree and that in itself tells us something. A loving "God" would not have the chaos that there is in the world and religion. "God" is not involved in our every day doings.
cats rule | 10:34 a.m. Oct. 13, 2007
Of course god exists. Didn't anyone watch Kevin Smith's classic
"Dogma"?
Stenar | 10:39 a.m. Oct. 13, 2007
God is dead.
Sam Hofer | 10:59 a.m. Oct. 13, 2007
Few comments:
If god exists, life in Utah has endeavoured to teach me that he has no sense of humour and is grouchy.
First person accounts in the scriptures don't prove god exists. I have first person accounts of darth vader, too. Anyone who takes the bible literally has never read an instruction manual for a piece of equipment if the manual was originally written in another language and thereafter translated.
Way too many people are religious. Way too few have faith.
If god exists, life in Utah has endeavoured to teach me that he has no sense of humour and is grouchy.
First person accounts in the scriptures don't prove god exists. I have first person accounts of darth vader, too. Anyone who takes the bible literally has never read an instruction manual for a piece of equipment if the manual was originally written in another language and thereafter translated.
Way too many people are religious. Way too few have faith.
Oversimplified Responses | 11:01 a.m. Oct. 13, 2007
Those who contend that there is a God b/c others have seen God first hand are
fortifying their own illusions. Further, reading/studying the scriptures does
not prove anything. Faith in something that is not seen does not equate to a
factual establishment of the existence of God. I believe in God but just b/c
others do not does not mean that they are missing something that I am getting.
What a pompous and unchristen view. We ought to be more tolerant and more
sympathetic to those who honestly do not believe in God, and we ought to not
speak pejoratively about those who want to debate the issue.
Voin Campbell | 11:03 a.m. Oct. 13, 2007
Either there are or there are not any absolutes. Either God exists absolutely or
God absolutely does not exist. What any or all of us think about it does not
alter the this absolute. So, where does that leave us? Regardless of what we
believe, we all make subjective personal choices about what we will accept as
evidence of about things not easily perceived by our extremely limited senses.
We are usually not easily disuaded for what comes out of those fundamantal
choices. A wise man once said, "A man convinced against his will is of the
same opinion still". We each make choices about what to believe and we
absolutely die or live with the consequences.
Paul Mecham | 11:40 a.m. Oct. 13, 2007
I was struck by the article�s statement that
�...the debate will focus on arguments based on
�reason� rather than those based on
�faith.�� While
the debate probably does not aim at determining a winner or loser, I cannot
envision a less level playing field. The outcome would be determined by the
preliminary assumption. A belief in God is based upon faith - strengthened by
reason; while a belief that there is no god is based solely on reason - ignoring
faith.
I was also struck just a few weeks ago by a TV program about searching for intelligent life outside our solar system. Billions have and continue to be spent with no result. In justifying this expense, one researcher said, �The absence of evidence is no evidence of absence.� I loved it. I wondered if he might also apply that to a search for God.
I was also struck just a few weeks ago by a TV program about searching for intelligent life outside our solar system. Billions have and continue to be spent with no result. In justifying this expense, one researcher said, �The absence of evidence is no evidence of absence.� I loved it. I wondered if he might also apply that to a search for God.
placebo | 12:08 p.m. Oct. 13, 2007
God is dead? when did his obituary run? i must have missed it.
FaithNoMo | 12:42 p.m. Oct. 13, 2007
Paul, the burden of proof should not be one the ones who want evidence. If God
exists, and wants us to know he exists, why is he hiding so well?
People want proof when they make decisions, but for some reason Religion has a free pass. Faith is just believing something for no good reason at all. It�s not about what�s real; it�s about believing something because you want to. Have all the faith you want, but I am much happier living in the real world.
People want proof when they make decisions, but for some reason Religion has a free pass. Faith is just believing something for no good reason at all. It�s not about what�s real; it�s about believing something because you want to. Have all the faith you want, but I am much happier living in the real world.
samhill | 1:18 p.m. Oct. 13, 2007
Atheism (the absence of God), as a doctrine, is the least rational one there is.
As Keller tacitly admits, proving a negative (there is no God) is a logical
impossibility. As one of my favorite sayings goes, “Absence of evidence
is not evidence of absence.” Consequently, the most he, or anyone with a
truly rational argument, can say is, “I don’t know if God
exists.” They may then also assert with some reasonable rationality that,
“…and I don’t think anyone else can know.” But to
positively assert that God does NOT exist is not logical and therefore, not
rational. Agnosticism (the absence of knowledge) is the closest thing to
atheism that has any rational basis.
Of course, that doesn’t mean that positively asserting that one knows that God does exist is necessarily either rational or logical. On that point one must start with the answer to the question of what is acceptable evidence. That is the crux of the actual debate here. I wonder if it will even be addressed.
Of course, that doesn’t mean that positively asserting that one knows that God does exist is necessarily either rational or logical. On that point one must start with the answer to the question of what is acceptable evidence. That is the crux of the actual debate here. I wonder if it will even be addressed.
Bill in Sandy Eggo | 2:01 p.m. Oct. 13, 2007
Thank you, samhill. Well said.
Bill in Sandy Eggo | 2:34 p.m. Oct. 13, 2007
P.S. I hope they have both read "GOD The Evidence - The Reconciliation of
Faith and Reason in a Postsecular World" by Patrick Glynn, published by
Three Rivers Press in New York.
Anonymous | 2:42 p.m. Oct. 13, 2007
If god is all powerful, you think god would have more control over who believes
in god.
David, the Believer | 3:32 p.m. Oct. 13, 2007
I was once an atheist. Learned it from my father.
He learned it at his University studies in the late 40's after World War 2. My mother was raised in the LDS Church. Us kids were sent to Church, after I got that started when I was 10 and by little brother was 8. When 12 I was a Deacon and brought my father's ideas to Quorum meetings. Poor Deacon's Quorum teachers: not only did they have to do with Jr. High mentality of spit wabs and other juvenile behavior, they had me challenging them on the very basis of religious belief. The two teachers/advisors were very good natured and put up with my nonsense too. During one lesson, one of them challenged me to: TRY PRAYER! He said if you don't believe, then prove it wrong... TRY it OUT!!!
A few days later I had a serious case of the hiccups. I tried everything: H2O, holding breath,
Nada.... After more than a half hour, I remembered Brother Freebairn's challenge. I did it AND the hiccups disappeared immediately. That wasn't full proof, but it did make me re-think. After more life
and experience I realized that He is there!
He learned it at his University studies in the late 40's after World War 2. My mother was raised in the LDS Church. Us kids were sent to Church, after I got that started when I was 10 and by little brother was 8. When 12 I was a Deacon and brought my father's ideas to Quorum meetings. Poor Deacon's Quorum teachers: not only did they have to do with Jr. High mentality of spit wabs and other juvenile behavior, they had me challenging them on the very basis of religious belief. The two teachers/advisors were very good natured and put up with my nonsense too. During one lesson, one of them challenged me to: TRY PRAYER! He said if you don't believe, then prove it wrong... TRY it OUT!!!
A few days later I had a serious case of the hiccups. I tried everything: H2O, holding breath,
Nada.... After more than a half hour, I remembered Brother Freebairn's challenge. I did it AND the hiccups disappeared immediately. That wasn't full proof, but it did make me re-think. After more life
and experience I realized that He is there!
Reality | 3:50 p.m. Oct. 13, 2007
Men who say they know God and think they know God's mind are very dangerous
people and usually most un-God like.
Great Comment | 4:47 p.m. Oct. 13, 2007
(Ken Baguley | 8:36 a.m. Oct. 13, 2007
The view of the Celestial bodies discovered by the Hubble Telescope should make one wonder about how such creations came to be.) Est. 300,000 Galaxy's Trillions of stars, and Billions of earths.
Great comment. When I read the scripture- For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them. Book of Moses.
I used to have some doubt, but it has been removed.
The view of the Celestial bodies discovered by the Hubble Telescope should make one wonder about how such creations came to be.) Est. 300,000 Galaxy's Trillions of stars, and Billions of earths.
Great comment. When I read the scripture- For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them. Book of Moses.
I used to have some doubt, but it has been removed.
Louis E. | 5:12 p.m. Oct. 13, 2007
I am sorry they agreed to debate about "a personal,anthropomorphic
God" when atheism rests on the (ridiculous) thesis that anything could
exist without a "First Cause".To denounce as irrational the belief in
a particular misconception about the First Cause taught by a particular
"faith",or even in a class of such misconceptions,can not offer any
explanation for existence without a First Cause.Just as evolution explains
species better than any "Scripture",the concept of a First Cause
explains existence where nothing else can.(And if you try the tired old
"then who created God?" whine you need a refresher on what
"First" means)_.
Don't Quibble Sybil | 5:14 p.m. Oct. 13, 2007
'Tis simple.
One believes or one does not believe.
I believe!
One believes or one does not believe.
I believe!
Well? | 6:37 p.m. Oct. 13, 2007
Hey Lou, I have got to admit you really handed it to me there. By the way, who
did create your God? Realize your comment was just a tired old whine.
By the way, who really wants to worship the God of the Bible. He wasn�t a very nice. God. DO you know how many people he murdered in the Bible? And Estimated 32, 920, 770. I know you probably haven�t tried to figure it out, since it�s nice to only follow the parts that aren�t crazy. That sure is a swell god if you ask me. What did all of the babies do wrong that he drowned in floods? You would think an omnipotent God would be able to kill with a little more accuracy. That is like sending a Murderer to die by shooting squad, put him in a crowd of children and shoot at him with a Shot Gun from 45 yards away.
GENESIS 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
By the way, who really wants to worship the God of the Bible. He wasn�t a very nice. God. DO you know how many people he murdered in the Bible? And Estimated 32, 920, 770. I know you probably haven�t tried to figure it out, since it�s nice to only follow the parts that aren�t crazy. That sure is a swell god if you ask me. What did all of the babies do wrong that he drowned in floods? You would think an omnipotent God would be able to kill with a little more accuracy. That is like sending a Murderer to die by shooting squad, put him in a crowd of children and shoot at him with a Shot Gun from 45 yards away.
GENESIS 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
You are easy to please! | 6:48 p.m. Oct. 13, 2007
David, the Believer, I'm sorry, but if being cured of the hiccups convinced
you of a god, you are the easiest person to please I have ever met. Why would
god care about your bout with hiccups, but let millions of children starve to
death? "Why it's part of his plan.,� you say?
Well that is a terrible god if he puts your hiccups higher on the priority list
than children starving or dying from disease.
And Bill in Sandy, you my friend need to do some more reading. I don�t have a problem with god, as much as the people who say they speak for him. I mean if there is a god, he obviously doesn�t care that I don�t believe in him because I seem to get blessed just as often as before. Of course, he hasn�t cured me of the hiccups. If water doesn�t work, it goes away eventually. Maybe god cures me without praying. Or maybe, just maybe, what you give credit to god for is no god at all�it�s just life.
And Bill in Sandy, you my friend need to do some more reading. I don�t have a problem with god, as much as the people who say they speak for him. I mean if there is a god, he obviously doesn�t care that I don�t believe in him because I seem to get blessed just as often as before. Of course, he hasn�t cured me of the hiccups. If water doesn�t work, it goes away eventually. Maybe god cures me without praying. Or maybe, just maybe, what you give credit to god for is no god at all�it�s just life.
Elizabeth | 10:27 p.m. Oct. 13, 2007
I don't deny that there is some higher power but the nature of that power
has not been proven.
Hugh Nibley | 11:20 p.m. Oct. 13, 2007
Actually, the Sophic mind never seems to be completely reconciled to the
negative doctrine in which it glories; one never fails to detect in the sermons
of the atheist a peevish and bitter undertone, a vindictive satisfaction in
putting the Mantic in its place, a tendency to gloat over the discomfiture of
the believer. This is another sign of the basic Sophic insecurity, for to one
who really believed that the sum total of all experience was zero it could not
make the slightest difference what other people might think on the subject, and
nothing could concern him less than the fond illusions of his fellows. Yet your
Sophic thinker spends most of his time and energy in preachments, denouncing
such illusions.
-- Hugh Nibley in The Ancient State, the Rulers and the Ruled, The Collected Works of Hugh Nibley, Volume 10, pages 336-337
-- Hugh Nibley in The Ancient State, the Rulers and the Ruled, The Collected Works of Hugh Nibley, Volume 10, pages 336-337
C.S. Lewis | 11:27 p.m. Oct. 13, 2007
"Either this man [Jesus] was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or
something worse. . . . But don't let us come with any patronizing nonsense
about His being a great human teacher. He hasn't left that open to
us."
-- C. S. Lewis in The Case for Christianity (New York: Macmillan, 1956), page 45
-- C. S. Lewis in The Case for Christianity (New York: Macmillan, 1956), page 45
Kurt | 11:39 p.m. Oct. 13, 2007
"And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the
living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon
Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father
which is in heaven."
--Matthew 16:16-17
"No man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost."
--1 Corinthians 12:3
Isn't debate the "flesh and blood" approach to a much weightier issue. Some know. Some don't know. Have patience! No one in this life has very long to wait before they cross the veil.
--Matthew 16:16-17
"No man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost."
--1 Corinthians 12:3
Isn't debate the "flesh and blood" approach to a much weightier issue. Some know. Some don't know. Have patience! No one in this life has very long to wait before they cross the veil.
For Heaven's Sake | 1:42 a.m. Oct. 14, 2007
Ask any athiest if the watch he or she is wearing on their wrist had a
manufacturer (creator) and the response will be "of course" or
something to that effect. When further asked, "how do you know that"
the athiest will respond "because there simply cannot be this watch without
a maker" or some similar comment. The same questions work for their
blackberry, laptop, etc. On top of that, they will also assure you that it is simply unnecessary to meet the maker to know for a certainty!
In direct contrast, it's simply beyond me that our amazing earth and solar system with it's infinite complexities can in the minds of our athiest friends, exist without a creator(?)
It's my belief that many of our so called athiests
are not athiests at all. To live a Christian based life takes work and commitment.
blackberry, laptop, etc. On top of that, they will also assure you that it is simply unnecessary to meet the maker to know for a certainty!
In direct contrast, it's simply beyond me that our amazing earth and solar system with it's infinite complexities can in the minds of our athiest friends, exist without a creator(?)
It's my belief that many of our so called athiests
are not athiests at all. To live a Christian based life takes work and commitment.
The Watch maker. | 9:27 a.m. Oct. 14, 2007
Oh the classic watch Maker story. Nice try. It is much more complex than that.
And why are you so arrogant to assume you need to live a "Christian"
Life style to be good. If you found out tomorrow that there was no god, would
you start stealing, lying, murdering, raping, lose all hope, stop doing the
things you love, stop loving your wife and kids? If so, I will stay away from
you. But I assume you would not. I bet your life wouldn�t
change much at all. Of course your life will change from being all about the
next life. Do Christians do great things? Of course they do. So does everyone
else. Don�t you think it is great that Atheists do good
things, not out of fear of going to hell, or not getting blessed, but be cause
that�s what you do to have a civilization work? You should
read �The Science of Good and evil� by
Michael Shermer.
God of the gaps. | 9:28 a.m. Oct. 14, 2007
It is beyond me why you need a god, who you will never see or even speak with,
to account for our Universe. There used to be rain gods, until we found out how
it rains...wow, no more need for that god. Sun God, Moon God, etc. You have a
God of the gaps. If you can't explain it, God must have done it.
But please use a better anecdote than the Watchmaker. It�s been used to much.
But please use a better anecdote than the Watchmaker. It�s been used to much.
Reality | 11:00 a.m. Oct. 14, 2007
The fable of the watchmaker is the watch is an inanimated manufatured object;
life is a living, growing organisam of chemical and biological orgin. In the
universe as a whole it is probably as inevitable as the physics of our known
world. Life can produce itself, I do not think a watch can do that. Maybe the
God of the universe is the universe itself; or maybe we are the Gods of the
universe: God help us.
Thanks "Reality" | 11:40 a.m. Oct. 14, 2007
I appreciate your response. And I made the very good point that nobody will
ever agree....there are people above that believe that we will eventually. Ok,
keep thinking that as many have until you die.
There are many ways to be taught and the way I originally was would have had the "millenium" by now. Lo and behold it came...but not the "millenium" I learned of. Yes, everyone we are in the new millenium. But try not to live your life hoping for more clarification because it's not going to come (unless you are realizing what we are saying.) This is it...and it's wonderful and hard and things are not going to basically change.
There are many ways to be taught and the way I originally was would have had the "millenium" by now. Lo and behold it came...but not the "millenium" I learned of. Yes, everyone we are in the new millenium. But try not to live your life hoping for more clarification because it's not going to come (unless you are realizing what we are saying.) This is it...and it's wonderful and hard and things are not going to basically change.
David, the Believer | 6:54 p.m. Oct. 14, 2007
To: "Easy to Please",
The hiccups incident was the beginning of a change
of attitude on my part. I was just graduating from
Deacon age to Teacher age (almost 14) when that event happened. The point is IT HAPPENED!! I DON'T know why hungar and other forms of suffering takes
place. I DO NOT know it all, nor do I suppose that in this life I will have all the answers. I have had other instances which parallel the hiccups incident. God doesn't always answer prayers when we want or expect. But I'm convinced that he does in
His OWN time. As I said, I've seen and experienced
many other such situations. The Healing of the Sick
happens many many times.
If one programs one's mind with the attitude that it's all baloney to believe, then NO Matter what--
you have convinced yourself with Human Pride and Theories and have created your own WALL. To a large degree it's a matter of being Open Minded AND Letting things happen. My father had disappointment in his life and blamed God for not taking care of it and convinced HIMSELF there is no God.
I Challenge You: to TRY PRAYER!!
The hiccups incident was the beginning of a change
of attitude on my part. I was just graduating from
Deacon age to Teacher age (almost 14) when that event happened. The point is IT HAPPENED!! I DON'T know why hungar and other forms of suffering takes
place. I DO NOT know it all, nor do I suppose that in this life I will have all the answers. I have had other instances which parallel the hiccups incident. God doesn't always answer prayers when we want or expect. But I'm convinced that he does in
His OWN time. As I said, I've seen and experienced
many other such situations. The Healing of the Sick
happens many many times.
If one programs one's mind with the attitude that it's all baloney to believe, then NO Matter what--
you have convinced yourself with Human Pride and Theories and have created your own WALL. To a large degree it's a matter of being Open Minded AND Letting things happen. My father had disappointment in his life and blamed God for not taking care of it and convinced HIMSELF there is no God.
I Challenge You: to TRY PRAYER!!
Prayer? | 10:29 p.m. Oct. 14, 2007
David, David, so your god is right no matter what? I thought he was bound. So if
it happens if God wants it no matter how much faith you have, or what you do,
why do you do those things? Sounds like a waste of time to me. Oh, and did God
tell you that is how he works? Or was it the people you pay tithes to?
Have you ever thought you have the wall put up? I KNOW god didn't tell you these things. Who told you that warm feeling you have is God or the Spirit? Hmmm was it that same church you pay tithes to? Maybe I am blinded by human pride. But hey, I was humble enough to say that I was fooled. Doesn't sound to prideful to me. I was bamboozled, and I admit it. I KNOW I don't know everything. Remember, you are the one that says you KNOW god healed your hiccups, while letting children be kidnapped and raped. I don't KNOW it wasn't him, but I think there are a lot better explanations to your miracle. By the way, why does God hate amputees? He heals hiccups, but not amputees?
Have you ever thought you have the wall put up? I KNOW god didn't tell you these things. Who told you that warm feeling you have is God or the Spirit? Hmmm was it that same church you pay tithes to? Maybe I am blinded by human pride. But hey, I was humble enough to say that I was fooled. Doesn't sound to prideful to me. I was bamboozled, and I admit it. I KNOW I don't know everything. Remember, you are the one that says you KNOW god healed your hiccups, while letting children be kidnapped and raped. I don't KNOW it wasn't him, but I think there are a lot better explanations to your miracle. By the way, why does God hate amputees? He heals hiccups, but not amputees?
K | 8:35 a.m. Oct. 15, 2007
No he doesn't. Never did. A man-made idea.
Robert Mayhew | 1:37 p.m. Oct. 15, 2007
From Epicurus - Greek Philosopher
(341BC - 270BC)
�Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?�
(341BC - 270BC)
�Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?�
A Believer in what? | 1:42 p.m. Oct. 15, 2007
Whether or not god exists, we only have our beliefs about god to apply to real
human behavior. What practical behavioral difference does it make that anyone
believes in god? Apparently, a very big difference. Because of their belief in
god, "believers" are committing murders, rapes, terrorist acts, and
all manner of destruction and violence. I like the way Sam Harris puts it:
"People of faith tend to argue that it is not faith itself but man's
baser nature that inspires such violence. But I take it to be self-evident that
ordinary people cannot be moved to burn genial old scholars alive for
blaspheming the Koran, or celebrate the violent deaths of their children, unless
they believe some improbable things about the nature of the universe" (p.
31 in The End of Faith). He adds, "Religious faith represents so
uncompromising a misuse of the power of our minds that it forms a kind of
perverse, cultural singularity - a vanishing point beyond which rational
discourse proves impossible" (p. 25).
Anonymous | 3:24 p.m. Oct. 15, 2007
Amen, Robert Mayhew. And don't any of you BYU crackpots give us David
Paulsen's pathetic attempt to tell us that Joseph Smith's theophany
takes care of all 3 "problems of evil" because that is such a crock of
philosophical nonsense that even a UofU freshman could answer it convincingly!
David, the Believer | 6:29 p.m. Oct. 15, 2007
I am NOT the David Paulsen of the BYU Philosophy
Department, but we do have somewhat similar names.
I AM NOT ASHAMED to say that I know that God Answers Prayers. That knowledge is on of my greatest possessions. To know that Jesus, the Lord, or the Father (whoever is involved) is there for us for Guidance. A fairly new song "Jesus Take the Wheel" says this. That's kind of the same message as the older Hymn: "Jesus, Savior Pilot Me".
To have this knowledge IS SO GREAT!! I'm glad that I grew up in a Church that taught me that I Can Have a "Personal Relationship" with the Lord. "Personal
Revelation" if you will. Because of Jesus's dying on the cross this Gift is possible to all. But He
is Not Pushy about it.
I know what it is to be agnostic/atheistic. My father taught me much of what's been said in this column. He's mellowed a little over the years, but still has that Cynical outlook that most who believe
that there is no God have. I've debated many times with him. He's as "set" as much as any Believer.
I'm not offended. Thanks for the memories.
Department, but we do have somewhat similar names.
I AM NOT ASHAMED to say that I know that God Answers Prayers. That knowledge is on of my greatest possessions. To know that Jesus, the Lord, or the Father (whoever is involved) is there for us for Guidance. A fairly new song "Jesus Take the Wheel" says this. That's kind of the same message as the older Hymn: "Jesus, Savior Pilot Me".
To have this knowledge IS SO GREAT!! I'm glad that I grew up in a Church that taught me that I Can Have a "Personal Relationship" with the Lord. "Personal
Revelation" if you will. Because of Jesus's dying on the cross this Gift is possible to all. But He
is Not Pushy about it.
I know what it is to be agnostic/atheistic. My father taught me much of what's been said in this column. He's mellowed a little over the years, but still has that Cynical outlook that most who believe
that there is no God have. I've debated many times with him. He's as "set" as much as any Believer.
I'm not offended. Thanks for the memories.
Puttering Along | 8:12 p.m. Oct. 15, 2007
It seems to me that if you take the 10,000 KM view of history it rapidly becomes
obvious that today's Gods and religions turn into tomorrow's myths.
Do you think that cultures other than those who hold or held to a tradition other that "Abrahamic" religion believed any less fervently in their heroes/gods?
Religion, at its base, is a means to discover truth. In my opinion we have much better tools available to us to learn the answer to the quest to find out "why?"
I find it totally amazing that we rely on 2000+ year old texts that attempt to describe our universe instead of modern discoveries.
Do you think that cultures other than those who hold or held to a tradition other that "Abrahamic" religion believed any less fervently in their heroes/gods?
Religion, at its base, is a means to discover truth. In my opinion we have much better tools available to us to learn the answer to the quest to find out "why?"
I find it totally amazing that we rely on 2000+ year old texts that attempt to describe our universe instead of modern discoveries.
Anonymous | 4:36 p.m. Oct. 16, 2007
And for crying out loud, don't give us Hugh Nibley nonsense! He was a sorry
excuse for a scholar, and is mocked by every other educated REAL scholar when
you talk to them in private. The burden you believers have is how to convince
those of us who don't believe. Your 2,000 year old myths and stories just
don't carry any weight in the modern world... unless you move to the Middle
East!
I agree with "Puttering Along" | 4:47 p.m. Oct. 16, 2007
What makes us think that we can't add insight to texts 2000 plus years old?
I am told that because the Bible says that homosexuality is wrong that we
should just accept that. Really? Have we learned anything about people, biology
and science in the past 2000 years? There are many more examples of things that
are in the Bible, but we've changed in our day. It is just some things
that some people want to cling to because they don't understand or like
something.
Just remember, our day and our writings are the "scriptures" in two thousand years.
Just remember, our day and our writings are the "scriptures" in two thousand years.
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God exists because you have first person accounts in the scritpures, but more importantly you can prove it to yourself if you are truly seeking to know. Be diligent, research (read the Bible, the commentaries and if you wish the Book of Mormon, and other standard works) and then pray with a sincere desire.
You will then know for yourself.