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Nuances of vouchers elude many
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Teacher | 12:20 p.m. Oct. 15, 2007
If public schools aren't broken why fix em
Me thinks... | 1:50 p.m. Oct. 15, 2007
Me thinks most of us would agree that education is the responsibility of
everyone in the community because it benifits all to have an educated society.
Me thinks all man are created equal and all children are created equal. I can
also see that the private sector out performs anything that is established by
government, both state and federal. A parent will go to a public school if not
satisfied with their public school, meaning they do think it is
"broken." Therefore I think if a parent isn't satisfied with the
education their child is getting in public schools, it should be their choice
with equal money from the state going towards the education of that child. Ref
1 doesn't even take it that far.
It's as easy as counting oreos.
It's as easy as counting oreos.
The Fox | 2:00 p.m. Oct. 15, 2007
The pro-voucher simplemindedness is exactly what is skuttling this initiative.
"It's as easy as counting oreos"?? Give us a break. What a
condescending, patronizing, silly, simple-minded commercial that was, and what a
revelation as to why the voucher idea is so bogged down - simpletons trying to
convince us that education is as "easy as counting oreos" - well, I
for one do not want my children "educated" with such simpleminded
nonsense. I would rather thave them truly educated in the discourse provided by
the public schools where they are taught to think about the subtle details that
always characterize important issues, rather than being reinforced in their
dichotomous thinking and unhealthy bifurcations. Such so-called
"education" does not deserve any funding whatsoever, and should be
attacked and destroyed like the mental disease it is.
Comments continue below
Why try | 2:02 p.m. Oct. 15, 2007
This bill will not pass because....
1. The "Natives" or so fearful that this Tax $ may end up at a school backed by a religion other than their own. You know, the one that gets billions of our tax $ every year.
2. This is the most jealous state in the country. "Hey my kids are already grown up, and it's too late to take advantage of this" or "I would never send my kid to that Christian school so why would I want to help a poor family who would." "They should offer vouchers for my breast implants so I can compete with Sister Jones."
3. Most the people in this state are ignorant to the facts and what is working in other states. That's understandable, since other than the Governor, they don't get out of state much unless it's on a Book of Mormon tour. And no, St. George does not count.
So enjoy your overcrowded schools and low teachers pay and shoot down every idea your legislators come up with. Especially if it would help those Christians Schools.
1. The "Natives" or so fearful that this Tax $ may end up at a school backed by a religion other than their own. You know, the one that gets billions of our tax $ every year.
2. This is the most jealous state in the country. "Hey my kids are already grown up, and it's too late to take advantage of this" or "I would never send my kid to that Christian school so why would I want to help a poor family who would." "They should offer vouchers for my breast implants so I can compete with Sister Jones."
3. Most the people in this state are ignorant to the facts and what is working in other states. That's understandable, since other than the Governor, they don't get out of state much unless it's on a Book of Mormon tour. And no, St. George does not count.
So enjoy your overcrowded schools and low teachers pay and shoot down every idea your legislators come up with. Especially if it would help those Christians Schools.
And so | 2:02 p.m. Oct. 15, 2007
If we spend 7,000 per child, and the teachers pay is about 5 of those students
$, where does the $ from the rest of the 35 kids in my kids overcrowded class
go. Maybe we should privatize the 40 school districts we have in this state.
Crackilate | 2:27 p.m. Oct. 15, 2007
It drives me nuts that people think they can take money out of the public system
because they are entitled to it.
I don't have kids, but I gladly pay for public education because I think it is a benefit to all and a valuable service, as imperfect as it may be. I would even support an increased tax to bring Utah's schools up to par with the rest of the country.
It drives me insane that people are implying that it makes good Republican sense to support the voucher system and that only liberal, progressive, union-supporting morons would vote against this.
On the contrary, the voucher system extends the government reach to these private schools. Only they won't be so private anymore because they will have to comply with more beauracracy and more funds will need to be generated for an already struggling public education system here in Utah (don't tell me that it won't cost the system anything, money still doesn't grow on trees last I checked and this program can't properly address fixed costs by the way it is designed).
The choice already exists, and as others have said/implied, we shouldn't be forced to fund your choice!
I don't have kids, but I gladly pay for public education because I think it is a benefit to all and a valuable service, as imperfect as it may be. I would even support an increased tax to bring Utah's schools up to par with the rest of the country.
It drives me insane that people are implying that it makes good Republican sense to support the voucher system and that only liberal, progressive, union-supporting morons would vote against this.
On the contrary, the voucher system extends the government reach to these private schools. Only they won't be so private anymore because they will have to comply with more beauracracy and more funds will need to be generated for an already struggling public education system here in Utah (don't tell me that it won't cost the system anything, money still doesn't grow on trees last I checked and this program can't properly address fixed costs by the way it is designed).
The choice already exists, and as others have said/implied, we shouldn't be forced to fund your choice!
Crackilate | 2:42 p.m. Oct. 15, 2007
To The Fox:
I totally agree. A subtle insult of intelligence to voters and teachers is a good way to stir up controversy and opposition. Who is advising the supporters of this thing? It seems every argument that I hear from a supporter is either (1) don't vote for the big, bad union of which teachers are just puppets or (2) you just don't know. Because that's them putting their best foot forward, then I don't blame voters for assuming they have something to hide and voting no without any other information.
I totally agree. A subtle insult of intelligence to voters and teachers is a good way to stir up controversy and opposition. Who is advising the supporters of this thing? It seems every argument that I hear from a supporter is either (1) don't vote for the big, bad union of which teachers are just puppets or (2) you just don't know. Because that's them putting their best foot forward, then I don't blame voters for assuming they have something to hide and voting no without any other information.
Nate | 3:37 p.m. Oct. 15, 2007
Why would anyone want to help Christian schools? That is where the irrational
fanaticism is indoctrinated into those poor children! That is where they learn
to believe in fables and myths rather than to use their minds to think for
themselves! Forget vouchers for no other reason than that!
anonymous | 4:47 p.m. Oct. 15, 2007
I think Mormons may be jealous that they do not have the equivalent of parochial
education and are too cheap to put money towards what Catholics have been doing
for years and years. Reason: they've been tithed enough.
mark | 5:53 p.m. Oct. 15, 2007
It is a silly assumption that the private sector always does a better job then
government, and that competition will always produce a superior outcome.
If this is true we should disband the military and give the contract to Black Water. And if competition always produces superior products, fast food must be great stuff.
If this is true we should disband the military and give the contract to Black Water. And if competition always produces superior products, fast food must be great stuff.
SLC gal | 11:11 a.m. Oct. 16, 2007
As a product of public schools, I believe there are things that need to be
changed - many of those things start with the parents, like parents encouraging
their children to learn, and enforcing good behavior. Parents who say
they're supporting the choice charters offer are LIARS! They think their
little darlings will just automatically grow up good as long as they're
surrounded by "good" kids. THINK AGAIN!!!!
The minds of children need to be carefully cultivated. Why don't these parents that support vouchers just yank their kids out and homeschool them? Their kids will get as much education from their parents as they would in any of those charter schools. Charters do not hold teachers to near the standards they hold their students.. which is also a concern.
With the way vouchers work, look at DIA, who is allowed to reject children legally here, while falling over their feet to get "anchor" kids. With a pattern like this, public schools could close as more schools like this are the future, soon leaving the average kid with no choices at all becuase the average kid will have no public school, and cant get into a charter.
The minds of children need to be carefully cultivated. Why don't these parents that support vouchers just yank their kids out and homeschool them? Their kids will get as much education from their parents as they would in any of those charter schools. Charters do not hold teachers to near the standards they hold their students.. which is also a concern.
With the way vouchers work, look at DIA, who is allowed to reject children legally here, while falling over their feet to get "anchor" kids. With a pattern like this, public schools could close as more schools like this are the future, soon leaving the average kid with no choices at all becuase the average kid will have no public school, and cant get into a charter.
Steven Jarvis | 12:24 p.m. Oct. 16, 2007
SLC gal,
Each Charter is very different. At OCS I had a pile of paperwork filed weekly for accountability with monthly reports as well. We also had teachers and administration fired mid-year. But I do agree with you. I had more than my fair share of 'angels' who needed a bit of cultivating in my almost all boy class last year. Most of the parents though were working with me and the school to help them be more angelic and I appreciated that, but I agree that parents need to continue or start taking on that role with their children teaching them about respect and integrity.
Each Charter is very different. At OCS I had a pile of paperwork filed weekly for accountability with monthly reports as well. We also had teachers and administration fired mid-year. But I do agree with you. I had more than my fair share of 'angels' who needed a bit of cultivating in my almost all boy class last year. Most of the parents though were working with me and the school to help them be more angelic and I appreciated that, but I agree that parents need to continue or start taking on that role with their children teaching them about respect and integrity.
Anonymous | 12:33 p.m. Oct. 16, 2007
Money does help in the education process but it doesn't motivate a child to
learn. Beyond all the tax/funding issues, the ulitimate goal is to have
educated childen. Until many parents and students realize that education is a
priviledge NOT a right; our public "educational" system will continue
to flounder. Choices create opportunities for those who are motivated and have
some direction in their life. It is the individual parent's responsibilty
to seek the best education for his/her child. It is the child's
responsibility to be respectful and take advantage of the opportunities placed
before him/her, and it is the teacher responsibility to educate. Whether this
takes place in a private or public education setting, so be it.
crackilate | 12:49 p.m. Oct. 16, 2007
I don't watch TV enough (well, honestly, I'm not watching at the right
times) to see the commercials on vouchers that some people mention, are they
posted online somewhere? Link?
20YR Professional Educator | 4:06 p.m. Oct. 16, 2007
SLC Gal,
I suspect you have mistaken "charters" for "vouchers." Charter schools are fantastic opportunities to give parents and students "choice" without the use of "vouchers," which are a questionable funding instrument when applied to education. I fully support Charter schools, but I remain unconvinced regarding vouchers.
And one more thing. I read comments from teachers insisting that their profession is doing just fine, but the real problem with student performance is lack of parental involvement. Everybody wants to blame everybody else. Yes, there are "bad" parents; and yes there are "bad" teachers; and yes the education system has some problems. If creating the perfect society was easy, someone would have done it long before now. The reality is that being a good parent is no trivial matter these days, just as being a good teacher is not easy. Overgeneralized blame games, however, are not the answer and only precipitate damaging stereotypes - that is the antithesis of "education" and is, therefore, unworthy of an educator. A truly professional educator recognizes that and would never stoop to blaming "bad parents" for the problems in education.
I suspect you have mistaken "charters" for "vouchers." Charter schools are fantastic opportunities to give parents and students "choice" without the use of "vouchers," which are a questionable funding instrument when applied to education. I fully support Charter schools, but I remain unconvinced regarding vouchers.
And one more thing. I read comments from teachers insisting that their profession is doing just fine, but the real problem with student performance is lack of parental involvement. Everybody wants to blame everybody else. Yes, there are "bad" parents; and yes there are "bad" teachers; and yes the education system has some problems. If creating the perfect society was easy, someone would have done it long before now. The reality is that being a good parent is no trivial matter these days, just as being a good teacher is not easy. Overgeneralized blame games, however, are not the answer and only precipitate damaging stereotypes - that is the antithesis of "education" and is, therefore, unworthy of an educator. A truly professional educator recognizes that and would never stoop to blaming "bad parents" for the problems in education.
Mr. Hendrix | 10:08 p.m. Oct. 16, 2007
Vouchers will not get rid of the waste in public schools. I have taught in the
public schools in two states (Utah and Nevada) for over 20 years. The
administrative staff is where the waste is - school counselors are the biggest
joke! You could save a fortune by simply eliminating them! They add absolutely
no value to the education process. Of course private and charter schools can
educate more efficiently because they can avoid such waste. Regardless of
vouchers, focus the money on the teachers who do the real work!
Adam Smith is right | 10:58 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007
to the 20yr educator...there is really little difference between private and
charter. For all intents and purposes, charter schools have self-elected boards
and are therefore quite private. In fact, I believe that charters need
competition to clean up their act.
Mr. Hendrix...we all know that it is virtually impossible to fire a bad tenured teacher. The waste is in admn., no question, but the real WASTE is in putting poor teachers and dumbed down and dopey curriculum in front of kids who are mandated to attend.
The problem is that public schools are subsidized to continue in spite of their deficiencies and incompetencies.
The answer is to create a more competitive environment. Fact is, the taxpayer does not serve the Public School System..the taxpayer should not be continually extorted by this dinosaur...but rather the children should be served by the taxpayer, not the public schools. There is a grave difference between the two; one that many are not grasping. I vote to have my taxpaying dollars support kids, NOT the broke public school system. I'd rather see quality teachers get better options and kids..the open market will do this.
Mr. Hendrix...we all know that it is virtually impossible to fire a bad tenured teacher. The waste is in admn., no question, but the real WASTE is in putting poor teachers and dumbed down and dopey curriculum in front of kids who are mandated to attend.
The problem is that public schools are subsidized to continue in spite of their deficiencies and incompetencies.
The answer is to create a more competitive environment. Fact is, the taxpayer does not serve the Public School System..the taxpayer should not be continually extorted by this dinosaur...but rather the children should be served by the taxpayer, not the public schools. There is a grave difference between the two; one that many are not grasping. I vote to have my taxpaying dollars support kids, NOT the broke public school system. I'd rather see quality teachers get better options and kids..the open market will do this.
Dan Gainees | 1:31 p.m. Nov. 1, 2007
School Vouchers only help the rich. They don't pay for private schools,
they will only reimburse people after paying for it. So for any one who
can't afford private schools in the first place, school vouchers does
nothing to help... unless your rich, then you get all your money back anyway.
Maybe it would be better to have an alternative to public schools, but this
experimental law does not provide the answer.
Applemind011 | 1:53 p.m. Nov. 1, 2007
This is to Anonymous who sent in Oct.15,2007 @4:47p.m.: I take offense to your
comment whether it was meant as a joke or not. The LDS religion's main
focus is meant for love, and to provide a better future for all. "The
Church", as i previously stated is not some foreign regime, It is its
members. Tithing is not taken from them, It is given freely with a grateful
heart. The idea of school vouchers is a bad idea yes,(too many questions), and
the current situation of Utah's schools may not be the best, but i assure
you it is not the fault of some religion. We should avoid School Vouchers, and
instead focus our time in putting more money into public schools.
Look hard at both sides fairly! | 9:06 a.m. Nov. 6, 2007
I pay my taxes and I want some of my tax money back for my children that
aren't even going to public schools. PERIOD! I'm not rich, but whether
I was or not, if I had children that weren't going to public school then it
is very wrong to have my tax money going to a school where my children are not
attending.
Dan Gainees | 1:08 p.m. Nov. 6, 2007
So whether you want your money back or not, you do nothing to address the fact
that this is still an experimental law in which many of the kinks have yet to be
addressed.
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