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Utah voucher issue appears doomed
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Steven Jarvis Response | 9:30 a.m. Oct. 12, 2007
The same example that you used for the student that came from a Private school
is repeated over and over again as parents pull their failing kids out of
public school in hopes to find something that works for their kids.
Your experience of having to work with a kids that have had a bad experience with private schools is repeated over and over again with private school teachers cleaning up after a failed attempt from the public school experience.
What is good for one may not be good for another. That is why vouchers are a good thing. It allows parents to find the best method of education for their kids.
Your experience of having to work with a kids that have had a bad experience with private schools is repeated over and over again with private school teachers cleaning up after a failed attempt from the public school experience.
What is good for one may not be good for another. That is why vouchers are a good thing. It allows parents to find the best method of education for their kids.
Steven Jarvis | 11:37 a.m. Oct. 12, 2007
It is why Vouchers are a BAD thing.
Each time the child is moved that child loses continuity for all the learning that the school was focusing on and has no continuity for prior teaching going on at the new school either. This disrupts the child and the class that the child then enters.
We have parents who literally put their child in four or five different schools over the course of the school year and not because they are physically moving from one residence to another. Vouchers will add an additional one to three schools for that child to pop in and out of for the year.
These "Pro-Choice" drifters have a highly negative impact on the educational communities where ever they go, because they are almost always behind. The problem with the introduction of Vouchers is that only the Private schools will get funding for the child, and not the Public or Charter schools that happen to have the child enrolled for a few months.
The way Vouchers and Public schools are funded under the law is different, leaving the Public system without funds, but the Private school with them.
Each time the child is moved that child loses continuity for all the learning that the school was focusing on and has no continuity for prior teaching going on at the new school either. This disrupts the child and the class that the child then enters.
We have parents who literally put their child in four or five different schools over the course of the school year and not because they are physically moving from one residence to another. Vouchers will add an additional one to three schools for that child to pop in and out of for the year.
These "Pro-Choice" drifters have a highly negative impact on the educational communities where ever they go, because they are almost always behind. The problem with the introduction of Vouchers is that only the Private schools will get funding for the child, and not the Public or Charter schools that happen to have the child enrolled for a few months.
The way Vouchers and Public schools are funded under the law is different, leaving the Public system without funds, but the Private school with them.
Comments continue below
Steven Jarvis | 11:48 a.m. Oct. 12, 2007
Not all parents are created equal either. If they were, no one would miss Parent
teacher's conference, every child would have a mother or father at home to
see to it that they start homework or read right after school, or to make sure
that the child is picked up and taken home on time. No child would ever be
abused nor neglected either, and Child Protective Services would no longer
exist.
That happens to be the fundamental flaw assuming that ALL PARENTS know the best for their child. While I honestly would like to think that, I worked in a pretty rough school in Arizona where if the child was not at the school they did not eat. They had breakfast and lunch, and most of the children (and often the young mothers who had them) were given it for free.
Utah is much better, but I have seen and reported more than a fair share of abuse and neglect by parents and I still never had one-hundred percent attendance at parent teacher conference.
That happens to be the fundamental flaw assuming that ALL PARENTS know the best for their child. While I honestly would like to think that, I worked in a pretty rough school in Arizona where if the child was not at the school they did not eat. They had breakfast and lunch, and most of the children (and often the young mothers who had them) were given it for free.
Utah is much better, but I have seen and reported more than a fair share of abuse and neglect by parents and I still never had one-hundred percent attendance at parent teacher conference.
Spanky | 12:01 p.m. Oct. 12, 2007
The schools keep telling us that vouchers will take money away from them that
can be used to help reduce class sizes. My child is in a class with 34 other
students right now. Obviously, they're not doing a good job with the money
the have right now.
Anonymous | 12:05 p.m. Oct. 12, 2007
Voucher people, YOU LOST! Get over it! Vouchers are a bad idea - either that or
you failed to be honest and make it understandable to reasonable people. Either
way, you failed. Move on!
Steven Jarvis | 2:00 p.m. Oct. 12, 2007
Spanky,
They are doing a good job with the inadequate funds they are giving your school to operate. The funds at your school do not warrant hiring a Full Time Teacher because State law requires Public funded schools to operate on a budget. They hire a FTE, they must cut one at another school to pay for the one your child would be getting.
Look at it this way. If I gave you thirty-five cents and asked you to go buy me a fifty-cent soda pop, would you be able to do it? Public schools do just that. They attempt to give children a full education with roughly seventy-percent of the resources to do it.
Schools don't buy new materials like textbooks very often. They don't have the funds. They don't hire more teachers to reduce class size until they hit a certain enrollment point, because they don't have funds. They don't provide a lot of services because they don't have funds.
Vouchers are not the cure for lack of funding in Public Education. When the child leaves, the school waves goodbye to that child's WPU money. We don't have funds as it is to cover every student.
They are doing a good job with the inadequate funds they are giving your school to operate. The funds at your school do not warrant hiring a Full Time Teacher because State law requires Public funded schools to operate on a budget. They hire a FTE, they must cut one at another school to pay for the one your child would be getting.
Look at it this way. If I gave you thirty-five cents and asked you to go buy me a fifty-cent soda pop, would you be able to do it? Public schools do just that. They attempt to give children a full education with roughly seventy-percent of the resources to do it.
Schools don't buy new materials like textbooks very often. They don't have the funds. They don't hire more teachers to reduce class size until they hit a certain enrollment point, because they don't have funds. They don't provide a lot of services because they don't have funds.
Vouchers are not the cure for lack of funding in Public Education. When the child leaves, the school waves goodbye to that child's WPU money. We don't have funds as it is to cover every student.
Public Education First | 4:15 p.m. Oct. 12, 2007
Vouchers, at this point, are a terrible idea. The plan in place doesn't
help anyone out. If you look closely at the guidelines to even qualify for
vouchers you will see that those who receive the $3,000 per student voucher are
only making $30,000-$40,000 annually. So my guess is these people are barely
making a house payment or rent. After the voucher money they will still have to
come up with $6,000-$13,000 to completely pay for they tuition for the year.
That's for only one child. Imagine if they have multiple children to send
to school, which most utah families do, they would have to come up with a car
payment to a house mortgage to pay for their kids to attend private school.
The other notion of Private schools providing a better education then public shools is also false. My Dad who was a Biology Teacher for many years said he routinely had kids transfer to his school from a private school and they found that those kids were behind in the curriculum. The education level is going to differ from kid to kid and family to family.
The other notion of Private schools providing a better education then public shools is also false. My Dad who was a Biology Teacher for many years said he routinely had kids transfer to his school from a private school and they found that those kids were behind in the curriculum. The education level is going to differ from kid to kid and family to family.
Free Enterprise | 9:08 p.m. Oct. 12, 2007
Vouchers do help a few people out.
Think of all the building contracts and the money to be made.
Think of all the building contracts and the money to be made.
Jose | 1:26 p.m. Oct. 13, 2007
This is the level of the anti-voucher imagining:
"So my guess is these people are barely making a house payment or rent."
What's the history of your guesses based on no experience?
Read the article "Poorer parents say vouchers can work for them" in the Tribune, 10/13/2007.
Let them speak for themselves. Let them sacrifice and Find A Way. It won't cost you to let them have a choice.
Remember that Not Everyone Thinks Like You Do.
"So my guess is these people are barely making a house payment or rent."
What's the history of your guesses based on no experience?
Read the article "Poorer parents say vouchers can work for them" in the Tribune, 10/13/2007.
Let them speak for themselves. Let them sacrifice and Find A Way. It won't cost you to let them have a choice.
Remember that Not Everyone Thinks Like You Do.
Anonymous | 2:31 p.m. Oct. 13, 2007
Jose,
IT does cost me to let them have there way. Fund Pubic ed. fully and then we'll see about special interest projects like Vouchers.
IT does cost me to let them have there way. Fund Pubic ed. fully and then we'll see about special interest projects like Vouchers.
Charters are Key | 6:24 p.m. Oct. 13, 2007
Charter schools are the answers to the issues voucher supporters are complaining
about. I have been critical of public schools for decades (ever since graduating
with honors myself). There is a lot of waste and inefficiencies. But those
problems plague private schools as well. There is no magic here that vouchers
will unleash. "Private" schools do not have some secret to success
that public schools, and especially charter schools, do not also have. No to
vouchers!
Anonymous | 6:39 p.m. Oct. 13, 2007
How many of you voucher supporters have actually read the bill(s)? They are
poorly written and full of nonsense. Even if vouchers are a good idea (which
they are not), the incompetence of those who are writing and supporting these
bills has undermined the probability of success. And if such incompetence is
behind the voucher movement, what can we expect from all the irrational,
uneducated radicals who are supporting vouchers? Educate yourselves before
trying to re-invent an education system that has been around for many years!
L | 12:10 a.m. Oct. 16, 2007
In another state far away I went to public schools and graduated only slightly
above average. The young lady that I married (and has many great qualities) was
an honor student at a private school that her parents had paid for.
Like I said, she has many great qualities and we are still together after 50 years, but without bragging too much I do believe I would beat her badly on any test. That would include common sense and managing the checkbook. She was a good mother for our children and always showed her interest in what they were doing.
Would I have done better in a private school, would her social interaction be better if she had gone to public school. We will never know but some of the comments seem to imply that they think their student will get a better education in private school. Our experience doesn't support that.
Those who have made comparisons about RTD vouchers for those who choose not to use the bus, or to take a cab, or zoo vouchers if we don't go up there make good comparisons.
I'm not convinced that vouchers are good.
Like I said, she has many great qualities and we are still together after 50 years, but without bragging too much I do believe I would beat her badly on any test. That would include common sense and managing the checkbook. She was a good mother for our children and always showed her interest in what they were doing.
Would I have done better in a private school, would her social interaction be better if she had gone to public school. We will never know but some of the comments seem to imply that they think their student will get a better education in private school. Our experience doesn't support that.
Those who have made comparisons about RTD vouchers for those who choose not to use the bus, or to take a cab, or zoo vouchers if we don't go up there make good comparisons.
I'm not convinced that vouchers are good.
Ad Campaign | 11:20 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007
I think the Pro-Voucher group needs a celebrity endorsement to help their cause
and promote how good private schools really are in educating children. How
about Paris Hilton? She attended three different private schools and look at
her now. Oh, wait. Nevermind. Scratch that. She dropped out before
graduating and later obtained her GED. I guess private schools really helped
her, didn't they? Just think, your kids can get the same care and
attention as Paris from attending private schools.
Adam Smith | 9:51 p.m. Oct. 22, 2007
I've been reading Steve Jarvis's comments. Steve, you stated that
charter schools are democratic, yet how so? Only 25% of a charter board is
required to be elected. That is hardly a republic Steve. Furthermore, colleges
recruit to diversify campuses, not the brightest and the best..this is the 21st
century. It used to be that way, when a bachelor's was worth something.
Regarding vouchers...the public schools wll retain full funding for, I believe it to be 4 or 5 years. The voucher amount of $3,000 max. can be used toward the private tuition. The ave. private elem. tuition is $3800, so that helps. The public school will continue to receive students as the numbers of kids continue to grow. Hence, the public school will need to organize and become more efficient. So, what is wrong with this scenario?
Regarding vouchers...the public schools wll retain full funding for, I believe it to be 4 or 5 years. The voucher amount of $3,000 max. can be used toward the private tuition. The ave. private elem. tuition is $3800, so that helps. The public school will continue to receive students as the numbers of kids continue to grow. Hence, the public school will need to organize and become more efficient. So, what is wrong with this scenario?
hmmm... | 3:27 p.m. Nov. 1, 2007
School choice? What is that? when I graduated from Layton High in 2001 they
began to close the gaps in transferring to different public schools. As it was,
for me it was Layton High or homeschool/private school--or else. I was not
allowed to go anywhere else.
My parents were VERY involved in me and my brother's education and the schools still failed to teach me for college and they told my brother that he had a future as a burger flipper because he had a chronic illness and they did not want to deal with him. Don't tell me its the parents fault--maybe sometimes it is--but public schools truly are a failure.
I graduated from Layton High with a 3.4 GPA; I was a hard worker, got on the honor roll many times and when I showed up at college I ended up having to take remedial math, because nobody at Layton High wanted to teach Algebra.
I'm for vouchers. Public schools failed me and my brother.
My parents were VERY involved in me and my brother's education and the schools still failed to teach me for college and they told my brother that he had a future as a burger flipper because he had a chronic illness and they did not want to deal with him. Don't tell me its the parents fault--maybe sometimes it is--but public schools truly are a failure.
I graduated from Layton High with a 3.4 GPA; I was a hard worker, got on the honor roll many times and when I showed up at college I ended up having to take remedial math, because nobody at Layton High wanted to teach Algebra.
I'm for vouchers. Public schools failed me and my brother.
Ron Davison | 10:12 a.m. Nov. 3, 2007
Why I believe vouchers will help our education system become more democratic.
When my principal called me into his office to warn me that he did not want to see my name or the names of my family on the voters� list, I knew that our education system had gained too much power over the ballot box. I believe that a tax-supported competition or voucher can help to balance that power.
When I received a call to oppose the Utah voucher, I told the caller of my concern about the tactics being used against teachers and encouraged her to support vouchers. She said she could not because she was an Ohio resident/teacher. She was doing only what she had been told to do from Ohio. That call led me to believe that our National Education Association has too much more power than our local citizens to determine our local state education issues. We must unite locally through a voucher system to try to oppose strong national educational forces.
Ron Davison
801-491-0399
When my principal called me into his office to warn me that he did not want to see my name or the names of my family on the voters� list, I knew that our education system had gained too much power over the ballot box. I believe that a tax-supported competition or voucher can help to balance that power.
When I received a call to oppose the Utah voucher, I told the caller of my concern about the tactics being used against teachers and encouraged her to support vouchers. She said she could not because she was an Ohio resident/teacher. She was doing only what she had been told to do from Ohio. That call led me to believe that our National Education Association has too much more power than our local citizens to determine our local state education issues. We must unite locally through a voucher system to try to oppose strong national educational forces.
Ron Davison
801-491-0399
Scott Mansfield | 2:07 a.m. Nov. 5, 2007
It is very interesting for me to see how much abuse my 30,000 dollar a year
public high school teacher's salary has managed to buy me. Having been
previously self-employed, I decided to become a public high school teacher at
the age of thirty-five in order to find a little deeper meaning in my career
than the pursuit of the almighty dollar.
Fortunately, I have been able to connect with hundreds of amazing young people and I feel I have been able to help many of them learn many valuable things in my debate and German classes at Lehi High School.
Sadly, I would not be able to teach and support my family without retaining my plumbing business. Teaching just doesn't pay enough to support a family of four in Utah.
Worse yet, some of the best people I know would never consider teaching because 'there is no money in it' and I am aware of many great people who have left because the pay.
Utah, you get what you pay for. Please stop blaming hard working and underfunded public teachers for all of the problems.
Giving public money away to private businesses will only compound this serious problem.
Fortunately, I have been able to connect with hundreds of amazing young people and I feel I have been able to help many of them learn many valuable things in my debate and German classes at Lehi High School.
Sadly, I would not be able to teach and support my family without retaining my plumbing business. Teaching just doesn't pay enough to support a family of four in Utah.
Worse yet, some of the best people I know would never consider teaching because 'there is no money in it' and I am aware of many great people who have left because the pay.
Utah, you get what you pay for. Please stop blaming hard working and underfunded public teachers for all of the problems.
Giving public money away to private businesses will only compound this serious problem.
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Go and check out a few of those U-Pass reports and I bet you might see why those parents aren't calling out the board.
Hint: Look at the High School daily attendance rate.
Think to yourself: If I hardly stayed in class would I learn the material?
Everyday, every class is missing a lot of kids in High School. Some kids come for part of the period and then sneak out. Others don't even make an appearance. That is why I do two roll calls, and I let them know I am going to do it. I would wager that the parents know the kids are missing a lot of school and are a bit upset by it. But who are they going to blame when the child who misses half the school year fails?
You can tell the kids who are going to succeed even with little money, cause they are the ones that bring the child into the buildings and talk to the teachers. Right now it is West Jordan High that has the most problem keeping kids in class. They can't pass if they don't even give it a try.