Reader comments
Utah voucher issue appears doomed
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Lloyd | 6:42 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
It is sad as it is a win-win situation. It could lead to increased per-pupil
expentitures which anti keep saying they want, thus lower class size. The rapid
growth in Utah requires new schools which the tax needs would grow slower with
building of Charter Schools. Some students just do better.
Anonymous | 6:46 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Short term pains?
Try long term problems. We have little accountability for our tax dollars written into the law while safety valves exist in the Public system. Think those crooks bilking our Public system with gym equipment or photo copied books aren't going to go into the Private side? Think again. It will be easier to cover up since the legislature ensured the first audit would not be for five years. The public system catches these crooks because of yearly audits. Five years is a thieving schemers dream.
Try long term problems. We have little accountability for our tax dollars written into the law while safety valves exist in the Public system. Think those crooks bilking our Public system with gym equipment or photo copied books aren't going to go into the Private side? Think again. It will be easier to cover up since the legislature ensured the first audit would not be for five years. The public system catches these crooks because of yearly audits. Five years is a thieving schemers dream.
Comments continue below
Sally | 7:00 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
The funny thing about this is everyone is complaining that it will take money
from public schools, when the average yearly cost spent per student is over
$4,000. The most the vouchers give is $3,000, so public schools would get more
money.
Craig | 7:52 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Vouchers give parents more options. Options are always good. That's all
vouchers are. Options. Sad that so many Utahns have joined the dark side
(ACLU, NAACP, Utah Democratic Party, UEA etc). Funny, but it's because of
a lack of education that so many oppose them!
See The Light | 8:04 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
What's this about not trusting parents? Parents are free to do as they
will for the their children's education. Everybody already has a choice.
Spending public money to fund private education for people who don't want
their kids to go to school with mine is a bogus idea. Spending any public (or
private) money in a system where there isn't at least the level of
accountability public schools meet is purely idiotic. Thus far, it appears that
the pro-voucher crowd is good at dropping distasteful names and spouting
anti-teacher rhetoric mixed with tons of half truths about funding. Let's
hear how you'll account publicly for the money. By that I mean, how will
you prove you're doing a better job? If you can't do that, you
don't deserve even the consideration it took to write this note.
Natalie | 8:28 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
It is important to realize that the amount of money parents will receive if
vouchers are approved is not enough to pay for a private education. Parents
will still have to contribute their own money. Is this really giving parents a
choice?
JBean | 8:49 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Private schools have to give standardized tests EVERY YEAR (public schools
don't). Let the results speak for themselves.
The "level playing field" argument is bogus--why should we tie the hands of private schools as we have the public ones and then expect any different results? There is more than one way to achieve education of a child, and innovation can find those ways that best meet some kids' needs.
And the anti-voucher folks can't have it both ways:
They say "I don't want to pay for YOUR choice to leave the system", then they say, "vouchers aren't enough to pay for private schools anyway".
Well, which is it?
Vouchers are a help to poorer families, who benefit most from them. Additional financial aid can be sought both from some private schools and philanthropic organizations, if the family is incentivized with this voucher help. Education is a poor kid's ticket up and out, and vouchers could do some good there, while leaving money in the public school.
Also, wealthy families choose thier school by buying houses in wealthy areas. They already attend the better schools, and are unlikely to be motivated to leave them, considering thier voucher would be quite small.
The "level playing field" argument is bogus--why should we tie the hands of private schools as we have the public ones and then expect any different results? There is more than one way to achieve education of a child, and innovation can find those ways that best meet some kids' needs.
And the anti-voucher folks can't have it both ways:
They say "I don't want to pay for YOUR choice to leave the system", then they say, "vouchers aren't enough to pay for private schools anyway".
Well, which is it?
Vouchers are a help to poorer families, who benefit most from them. Additional financial aid can be sought both from some private schools and philanthropic organizations, if the family is incentivized with this voucher help. Education is a poor kid's ticket up and out, and vouchers could do some good there, while leaving money in the public school.
Also, wealthy families choose thier school by buying houses in wealthy areas. They already attend the better schools, and are unlikely to be motivated to leave them, considering thier voucher would be quite small.
JBean | 8:55 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Also, would everybody please keep it in PERSPECTIVE?
Vouchers, when fully implemented, would barely constitute 1-2% of the $3.5 BILLION dollar yearly school budget!
This is NOT going to bankrupt the public system, people. It increases overall education spending, by having people volunteer, via voucher use, to use LESS public funds and more of thier own funds to send thier kids to school.
And BTW, regarding Kim Burningham, Chair of the State Board of Education and spokesman for (anti-voucher group) Utahns for Public Schools, I believe the relevant phrase is "CONFLICT OF INTEREST"
Vouchers, when fully implemented, would barely constitute 1-2% of the $3.5 BILLION dollar yearly school budget!
This is NOT going to bankrupt the public system, people. It increases overall education spending, by having people volunteer, via voucher use, to use LESS public funds and more of thier own funds to send thier kids to school.
And BTW, regarding Kim Burningham, Chair of the State Board of Education and spokesman for (anti-voucher group) Utahns for Public Schools, I believe the relevant phrase is "CONFLICT OF INTEREST"
Irony | 9:13 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Pretty ironic that the ultra-conservatives in the state are all of the sudden
pro-choice.
Another Perspective | 9:15 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
JBean. Since when is a 1-2 cut no big deal. How about going to work tomorrow
and asking your boss for a 2% cut in salary. It's no big deal after all.
anon | 9:18 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Are the same people supporting vouchers saying they will help the poor the same
people voting against extending health coverage to the low income. Afterall,
what the poor really need is a few thousand dollars to help pay an $8,000
private school bill. Oh, I forgot, their kids will be too sick to attend
school.
See The Light | 9:23 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
JBean
My kids in public schools take multiple standardized tests EVERY year. I can't tell if you're just uninformed or lying. Which is it?
I read a report from our own legislative analysts that, if I remember correctly, will cost the public education system half a billion $ in the next five years. That's after the supposed money to hold public schools "harmless." Sorry, they won't let me post a URL here. Google it.
My kids in public schools take multiple standardized tests EVERY year. I can't tell if you're just uninformed or lying. Which is it?
I read a report from our own legislative analysts that, if I remember correctly, will cost the public education system half a billion $ in the next five years. That's after the supposed money to hold public schools "harmless." Sorry, they won't let me post a URL here. Google it.
bbop | 9:51 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
All we need to do is study the facts and make an educated vote. What is wrong
with smaller class sizes and the left over money,( Money that does not go to the
private school)staying with the public school the child would have attended?? I
like the idea of smaller class sizes. I like the idea of competition in all
schools, won't schools become better to entice the students to attend their
school? Yes, there are some bad private schools that have a really interesting
curriculum. Won't the competition to have the best schools and teachers to
pull students work both ways? The private schools I really know have had
standardized testing to make sure students were keeping up with other students
in the area. Somebody really needs to give me a real valid reason not to vote
YES for ref. 1. Come on everybody, get your neighbors out to vote YES! It is a
good thing for Utah.
Dave | 10:14 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
bbop: Didn't you read the article? Nobody needs to give YOU a valid
reason not to vote yes - you're already in the minority on this issue.
dcc | 10:27 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
When do I get my voucher for not putting any kids into the system? I
didn't get a choice.
I don't care if it makes public schools better or not. I care about my tax dollars. JBean-take your 1 or 2% and pay on your OWN.
Not one red cent towards a private school. Especially when it goes to one of the $500 voucher recipients!
Voting NO!
I don't care if it makes public schools better or not. I care about my tax dollars. JBean-take your 1 or 2% and pay on your OWN.
Not one red cent towards a private school. Especially when it goes to one of the $500 voucher recipients!
Voting NO!
Stop Vouchers | 10:35 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
INVEST IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS!! Utah has the most overcrowded classrooms in the
country. Utah ranks last in the nation in spending per student. 96% of
Utah's kids attend public school. Vouchers would NOT reduce class sizes in
public schools. Yes, there would be less kids in the public system, but we
would just reduce the number of teachers. (Most school districts have
"full-time subs" because right now there are not enough teachers
because teachers are leaving UT.) If anything, the student/teacher ratio would
get worse with vouchers because so much money would be taken away. Vouchers
would take away TONS of money that should go to public schools. Come on people,
what don't you understand?! Vouchers are a very bad idea. Besides, more
than half of Utah's counties don't even have private schools. Vouchers
would give an average of $2000 per student wishing to attend a private school,
which is nowhere near the full cost of tuition, so even with vouchers, only the
rich kids will be able to afford private schools. Don't waste Utah
taxpayers dollars on vouchers! The nation is watching us with the upcoming
vote...use your heads people- VOTE AGAINST VOUCHERS!
NO VOUCHERS | 10:40 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Vouchers will not reduce class sizes! Right now, there are not enough teachers
in Utah and most school districts are understaffed. Vouchers would make it even
worse because there wouldn't be as much money to go towards teachers, thus
more teachers would leave utah in search of better pay, which would leave our
classrooms even more overcrowded. Public schools need as much funding as we can
get!!!
Mel | 10:42 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Yes Yes Anything against the public school system which is failing miserably to
teach our children. I vote for vouchers and I am telling all my friends and
family to vote for vouchers. Whatever the Teachers Association is telling us is
lies ..they are the most liberal union I know.
Carol | 12:11 a.m. Oct. 10, 2007
Public $$ = public accountability. I am sick to death of "parents know
best." Perhaps they do. But if the public contributes in a significant
way to a private system, then the public also deserves accountability.
Challenger Schools do not want to be accountable to the public. They understand
that choice includes consequences.
If you believe that minimal public accountability is acceptable, then minimal public funds should support your choice.
If you believe that minimal public accountability is acceptable, then minimal public funds should support your choice.
Mahershalalhashbaz | 12:17 a.m. Oct. 10, 2007
The average private school costs $4,000 (some cheaper-especially with multiple
children in the family). I've called myself. A $3,000 voucher will help
poor students go to private school. Competition drives prices down. Vouchers
will create more competition. Do the math. Each student in Utah in Public
school costs $7500 a year. Times that by the 40 students in our overcrowded
classes we have. That's pushing 300,000 dollars a year in 1 lousy class!!
Yet the teacher gets peanuts out of that and still support the way we do things.
You pay me that much money a year, and I'll have them speaking 10
languages by the end of the year learning in my basement!!!! I'll take
them on vacations to Alaska to learn about bears, to DC to learn about
Washington. Don't tell me the system isn't broken!!!!!!! Insanity.
Utahns brains have been diseased by the liberal pulbic school UEA just like the
UEA wanted to do. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! HELP GeT ME OUT OF HERE!!!!!!!!!
THEY"VE CREATED MONSTERS-EVERYWHERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Save me!
scooter | 1:15 a.m. Oct. 10, 2007
I agree the class rooms are overcrowded,and by taking children out of a public
school would make the public school poor. I see the comercials would fail Utah
families my family is not a faliure whatever I choose is what I know will help
her it shouldn't be about the money, but it is the rich will get richer and
the poor poorer. In all reality we do already have a choice how we educate our
kids. The best teaching is done by us as parents.I find it very sad that we as
Americans spend so little time educating our kids. As for me I will go and Vote
on this issue. Let your vote count. Lets not make the rich schools richer and
the public school poorer. I will vote no but would still like to find more info
on this bill. Please list some web sites if you know any!!!!
DMN moderator | 1:19 a.m. Oct. 10, 2007
Readers:
Please refer to our terms of service regarding the posting of URLs (Web sites) within your comments.
In case you were wondering why your comment wasn't approved and showing up if it contained reference to a Web site.
Thanks.
Please refer to our terms of service regarding the posting of URLs (Web sites) within your comments.
In case you were wondering why your comment wasn't approved and showing up if it contained reference to a Web site.
Thanks.
Tongue in Cheek | 8:31 a.m. Oct. 10, 2007
Re: DMN moderator,
I'm sure you would let us post URLs with our comments if it weren't for the "fact" that the "liberal public school UEA" has "diseased" our brains!
Thanks for the wake up call Mahershalalhashbaz. I've been controlled by the UEA for so long that I didn't realize that I no longer had free agency.
Whew, I feel much better now!
I'm sure you would let us post URLs with our comments if it weren't for the "fact" that the "liberal public school UEA" has "diseased" our brains!
Thanks for the wake up call Mahershalalhashbaz. I've been controlled by the UEA for so long that I didn't realize that I no longer had free agency.
Whew, I feel much better now!
tongue in Cheek | 9:57 a.m. Oct. 10, 2007
Well there you have it, Mahershalahasbaz will be opening his own private
linguistic school in his basement, completely unregulated by government
restrictions.
Of course since it is in his basement he will not be able to accept vouchers. But what they hey, the child has been guaranteed to learn ten languages in a year so he must really know how to teach and motivate our little ones. He seems sane enough, and as a wise parent I should be able to choose to send my children so they can see wild bears in Alaska.
Of course since it is in his basement he will not be able to accept vouchers. But what they hey, the child has been guaranteed to learn ten languages in a year so he must really know how to teach and motivate our little ones. He seems sane enough, and as a wise parent I should be able to choose to send my children so they can see wild bears in Alaska.
Jayson | 11:14 a.m. Oct. 10, 2007
So much for Mormons believing in free agency....
Anonymous | 1:47 p.m. Oct. 10, 2007
Being a Jazz fan and a Mormon, it is kind of hard believing about free agency.
It usually means the best are going to go somewhere else because they think your
team isn't competitive.
Lowly Public Teacher | 2:50 p.m. Oct. 10, 2007
We as public school teachers and staffs are constantly bombarded by demands for
increased test scores, achieve adequate yearly progress for NCLB, accreditation
hurdles, student accomodations, improved programs for english as a second
language students, raising our own funds for extra programs that we want to
offer students and many other things. One of the very last things we get to do
is actually teach! Most teachers a dedicated to what they are doing and to the
kids. We all had a teacher or two that was a dud, but you get by. I would vote
for vouchers in a second but for one major problem. It angers me to think that
my tax dollars are going to help a kid go to a private school that gets to limit
and discriminate who gets to go, doesn't have any accountability as far as
testing, public programs, NCLB and all that other crap. You advocate
competition... I welcome competition. But with vouchers and private schools it
would be like competing in business with someone that doesn't have to pay
the taxes or obey the safety regulations that cost you and cause your prices to
go up. Not fair and it's unacceptable.
Disgusted Parent | 3:01 p.m. Oct. 10, 2007
Sorry, but parents do have a choice... to get off their lazy butts and sit down
with their kids and go over their homework with them. You want students to be
successful and do well in school... then start helping the teacher out and do
some teaching yourself with your own kids. Follow up on them, be invested in
what they're learning, enrich and improve their education by adding your
insights. Stop assuming it is only the teacher's job to teach. It saddens
me how many times I have parents say to me, "I can't help my kid with
math... I was horrible at math." The kids see a way out, they know you
don't hold yourself accountable and so you probably won't hold them
accountable either. If you really want your kids to learn... you better show
that learning is worthwhile and important in the home and get involved!
Dave | 3:23 p.m. Oct. 10, 2007
Disgusted parent,
That still doesn't excuse the fact that the parent should also have the choice to take their child elsewhere. You site the fact that some parents choose not to help their kid study. Sorry to say but that is not always the case. Also you ignore the fact that there are some gifted children out there that are kept in a system that wasn't made to help those students learn at an advanced place. Oh yeah sure there are some advanced classes but on the whole schools are geared towards the average student and not towards the gifted or hampered students.
That still doesn't excuse the fact that the parent should also have the choice to take their child elsewhere. You site the fact that some parents choose not to help their kid study. Sorry to say but that is not always the case. Also you ignore the fact that there are some gifted children out there that are kept in a system that wasn't made to help those students learn at an advanced place. Oh yeah sure there are some advanced classes but on the whole schools are geared towards the average student and not towards the gifted or hampered students.
Steven Jarvis | 5:41 p.m. Oct. 10, 2007
Dave,
You are ignoring the fact that parents already have the right to take their child elsewhere to be educated.
This isn't about choice. It has always been about money, and most in Utah seem to be agreeing that they do not want our tax money going to private education. If you want Private schooling for your child, take a second job and pay for it.
You are ignoring the fact that parents already have the right to take their child elsewhere to be educated.
This isn't about choice. It has always been about money, and most in Utah seem to be agreeing that they do not want our tax money going to private education. If you want Private schooling for your child, take a second job and pay for it.
Jesse | 7:03 p.m. Oct. 10, 2007
And you Steven are ignoring the fact that each individual tax payer should have
the right to choose where there tax dollars go in regards to their childs
education.
The voucher isn't going to cover the complete cost of the school so anyone who chooses to send their child to a private institution is going to have to put in extra hours either way. This way they get some of "their tax dollars" back and don't have to live with a system that would take their tax dollars to pay for education even though their child is no longer in the public school system.
Seriously Stephen could you be any more ignorant inferring that those are everyone elses tax dollars but not the tax dollars of anyone who wants choices in their childs education.....
The voucher isn't going to cover the complete cost of the school so anyone who chooses to send their child to a private institution is going to have to put in extra hours either way. This way they get some of "their tax dollars" back and don't have to live with a system that would take their tax dollars to pay for education even though their child is no longer in the public school system.
Seriously Stephen could you be any more ignorant inferring that those are everyone elses tax dollars but not the tax dollars of anyone who wants choices in their childs education.....
Steven Jarvis | 9:46 p.m. Oct. 10, 2007
Jesse,
If that were true, I'd get all my taxes back because I have no kids but still pay my fair share of taxes. Plus you miss the point parents can choose where to put their child already. We have Open Enrollment here in Utah. That means we have the most choice possible. How about your state? We have Charter schools, which are also free. We additionally have Private schools and home-schooling options. Utah has the most choice in the entire state as to where a child can go to school.
The difference is that you feel our taxes should go to pay for Private schools, and I (and the majority in Utah) feel that the Public system should.
If you followed Utah educational policy the past twenty years you might see why we are dead last in educational funding. We have been cutting revenue sources like impact fees, giving larger shares to Higher Ed and still putting more and more children into the system. That Voucher money would be better served buying History books for middle school classrooms. Reagan was President when I was five. A few others have been since.
If that were true, I'd get all my taxes back because I have no kids but still pay my fair share of taxes. Plus you miss the point parents can choose where to put their child already. We have Open Enrollment here in Utah. That means we have the most choice possible. How about your state? We have Charter schools, which are also free. We additionally have Private schools and home-schooling options. Utah has the most choice in the entire state as to where a child can go to school.
The difference is that you feel our taxes should go to pay for Private schools, and I (and the majority in Utah) feel that the Public system should.
If you followed Utah educational policy the past twenty years you might see why we are dead last in educational funding. We have been cutting revenue sources like impact fees, giving larger shares to Higher Ed and still putting more and more children into the system. That Voucher money would be better served buying History books for middle school classrooms. Reagan was President when I was five. A few others have been since.
Private School Parent | 1:24 p.m. Oct. 11, 2007
I want to comment on the statements that are being made that "only rich
kids can afford private schools"
My wife and I sacrifice a ton to send our children to private school. We are dedicated to providing the best educational experience for our kids. We both work full time jobs in order to be able to afford this for our children. We are joined by many single mothers, minority families, and other parents in our same situation who care about our children's education enough to do something about it.
We sacrifice sports, dance, music lessons, boat payments, vacations, marble countertops, new cars, etc. in order to provide the best possible educational experience for our kids.
The results for our children have been amazing!
Please do not generalize that only rich kids go to private schools because that is not correct and is a slap in the face to my family and all others who sacrifice a ton for our children's education!
My wife and I sacrifice a ton to send our children to private school. We are dedicated to providing the best educational experience for our kids. We both work full time jobs in order to be able to afford this for our children. We are joined by many single mothers, minority families, and other parents in our same situation who care about our children's education enough to do something about it.
We sacrifice sports, dance, music lessons, boat payments, vacations, marble countertops, new cars, etc. in order to provide the best possible educational experience for our kids.
The results for our children have been amazing!
Please do not generalize that only rich kids go to private schools because that is not correct and is a slap in the face to my family and all others who sacrifice a ton for our children's education!
Great news | 2:42 p.m. Oct. 11, 2007
Now my kids dont have to share ther private schools with all the poor kids,
been waiting for this outcome. Way to go Utah voters keep the above average were
they belong and the rest were they do too.
Shaking My Head | 5:06 p.m. Oct. 11, 2007
This fear of vouchers is irrational. It reminds me of my daughter being
terrified of the very medicine that would help her.
Every time someone uses a voucher, one reduces a class size by one student. And because the voucher is less than the cost of educating that student, the funding per student increases. It seems so simple.
Yet vouchers or not the NEA has an inbred hostility toward private schools and home schooling. Perhaps this just boils down to a turf war. Our children are the turf and the NEA doesn't want to lose any.
Every time someone uses a voucher, one reduces a class size by one student. And because the voucher is less than the cost of educating that student, the funding per student increases. It seems so simple.
Yet vouchers or not the NEA has an inbred hostility toward private schools and home schooling. Perhaps this just boils down to a turf war. Our children are the turf and the NEA doesn't want to lose any.
In it for the long haul | 6:24 p.m. Oct. 11, 2007
The symbol of the debate should be Granite District�s logo:
an educator and a child giving each other
�five� � only the
child has no head. We need schools that respect the heads on their
students� shoulders. We should have that choice. As a
parent who has had children in the public schools for the past fourteen years,
and who has another eleven years to go, I support vouchers with every fiber of
my being. I would love to know what a poll would look like in which every
respondent was in a similar position � having several
years� experience dealing with the public schools we have
now, and several more years to face. It is one thing for the general public to
resist any change, but let�s hear from the ones with the
greatest stake in the outcome � those who have lived with
the issues every day for years, and whose children will be most immediately
impacted. (Although the long run deserves consideration, a bad outcome can be
adjusted over time, so the immediate impact is significant as an unalterable
one.)
It is concern for the rising generations that should decide the issue.
It is concern for the rising generations that should decide the issue.
Steven Jarvis | 7:09 p.m. Oct. 11, 2007
No one wants to lose any children. That is why I am firmly opposed to an
irresponsible Voucher program that lacks basic safeguards to ensure all children
are being educated properly.
The system's first audit would be conducted after running for five years. By then a child whose parents chose the wrong Private education could be so woefully behind they may not be able to acquire the skills their peers will by the time graduation rolls around.
Our legislature, many who have been bought and paid for by the Voucher special interest groups, has acted irresponsibly for our state's children. We have the opportunity to rectify their mistake by voting against Vouchers and striking them from the books
The system's first audit would be conducted after running for five years. By then a child whose parents chose the wrong Private education could be so woefully behind they may not be able to acquire the skills their peers will by the time graduation rolls around.
Our legislature, many who have been bought and paid for by the Voucher special interest groups, has acted irresponsibly for our state's children. We have the opportunity to rectify their mistake by voting against Vouchers and striking them from the books
Great news | 8:42 p.m. Oct. 11, 2007
VOTE NO ON VOUCHERS dont mess up my kids private schools with your public
school kids keep them away from quality education in large classes with the
finest teachers Mexico has to send up here KEEP PRIVATE SCHOOLS PRIVATE we dont
want tax dollors and we dont want your kids.
Prove your Comments | 9:41 p.m. Oct. 11, 2007
Steven Jarvis - Please indicate by name which of our legislature have been
bought and paid for by the voucher special interest groups. Please document all
proof that you have that details the purchase for each member.
While you are at it, you might document the details to explain why a child who experiences a private education will be woefully behind.
Thank you.
While you are at it, you might document the details to explain why a child who experiences a private education will be woefully behind.
Thank you.
Absurd Comments | 9:53 p.m. Oct. 11, 2007
I find the statements about private schools being unaccountable absurd.
If I choose to send my children to a private school, they have the ultimate accountability...to me. If I don't like the education that my children receive, I can take my money and go elsewhere. That makes a private school ultimately accountable.
Let's compare that to the accountability of the current education system in Utah..
Deseret Morning News, June 6.
"The Utah State Office of Education (USOE) released its test report on current high school graduates showing that one-fourth of students did not pass their new "competency" test. Sen. Howard Stephenson, R-Draper, expressed his disappointment: "We have to remember this one-quarter of the students who didn't pass are the students who are left in the system. There's another 20 percent or so who have dropped out additionally. We're turning out young people into an adult world who do not have basic life skills"
Where is the parents of the children in this state calling for the resignation of the current leadership of the Utah Board of Education? Talk about lack of accountability!
If I choose to send my children to a private school, they have the ultimate accountability...to me. If I don't like the education that my children receive, I can take my money and go elsewhere. That makes a private school ultimately accountable.
Let's compare that to the accountability of the current education system in Utah..
Deseret Morning News, June 6.
"The Utah State Office of Education (USOE) released its test report on current high school graduates showing that one-fourth of students did not pass their new "competency" test. Sen. Howard Stephenson, R-Draper, expressed his disappointment: "We have to remember this one-quarter of the students who didn't pass are the students who are left in the system. There's another 20 percent or so who have dropped out additionally. We're turning out young people into an adult world who do not have basic life skills"
Where is the parents of the children in this state calling for the resignation of the current leadership of the Utah Board of Education? Talk about lack of accountability!
Response to Thora | 10:06 p.m. Oct. 11, 2007
Thora Searle - Your comment about status symbol is absolutely incorrect. It is
all about education.
We pay to have our children go to private school because we care about their education - it has nothing to do with status.
All you have to do is compare the average ACT test scores of the graduating seniors of Utah public schools with the average ACT test scores of the seniors who attend private schools and you would understand.
We pay to have our children go to private school because we care about their education - it has nothing to do with status.
All you have to do is compare the average ACT test scores of the graduating seniors of Utah public schools with the average ACT test scores of the seniors who attend private schools and you would understand.
Conflict of Interest | 10:20 p.m. Oct. 11, 2007
Kim Burningham is chairman of the Utah State Board of Education.
At the same time, Kim Burningham is one of the five founders of and a spokesman for Utahns for Public Schools.
That's the committee of union officers, politicians and establishment educators that filed a referendum petition against sections of the voucher law that they want to repeal.
This presents Burningham with a massive conflict of interest. He speaks on behalf of the group fighting to stop vouchers and is the leader of the group responsible for implementing them.
To eliminate this conflict of interest, Kim should resign from the board of education or quit his involvement of Utahns for Public Schools.
At the same time, Kim Burningham is one of the five founders of and a spokesman for Utahns for Public Schools.
That's the committee of union officers, politicians and establishment educators that filed a referendum petition against sections of the voucher law that they want to repeal.
This presents Burningham with a massive conflict of interest. He speaks on behalf of the group fighting to stop vouchers and is the leader of the group responsible for implementing them.
To eliminate this conflict of interest, Kim should resign from the board of education or quit his involvement of Utahns for Public Schools.
Great news | 10:23 p.m. Oct. 11, 2007
(Absurd comment) You make my point exactly and thats why you should all vote
against vouchers, why drag down all the smart kids that want too learn or are
gifted like mine are down too your public school levels? My kids have 7 kids in
each class with well payed teachers and no drop outs no spanish speaking kids no
teachers from Mexico they have 92% of the kids going on to college LETS NOT MESS
IT UP!!! VOTE NO TOO VOUCHERS show the public school teachers we care
Utah Education Funding | 10:45 p.m. Oct. 11, 2007
As I try to understand both sides of the voucher argument, I am concerned about
how public money is being spent within the Utah Educational system.
Take for example this article:
Utah legislature announces huge K-12 budget increase
By PAUL FOY - Associated Press writer Sunday, February 25, 2007
"Legislative leaders announced to raise funding for public education by $450 million, by far the biggest increase ever for Utah's crowded schools.
Senate and House Republicans said the new money -- which boosts state aid to elementary and secondary schools to $2.6 billion, up nearly $1 billion since 2003 -- will build more schools, expand all-day kindergarten, hire more teachers, raise their salaries and buy more computers, books, supplies and materials for classrooms.
The funding boost "is so astronomical" it took most of the legislative session to figure out how to allocate it more than 40 ways, said Senate President John Valentine, R-Orem.
Lawmakers said they were withholding money for reducing classroom sizes until legislative auditors can investigate reports that districts misappropriated some of the $800 million dedicated for that purpose since 1992."
It would seem that we have a bigger problem than allocating $9 Million for vouchers.
Take for example this article:
Utah legislature announces huge K-12 budget increase
By PAUL FOY - Associated Press writer Sunday, February 25, 2007
"Legislative leaders announced to raise funding for public education by $450 million, by far the biggest increase ever for Utah's crowded schools.
Senate and House Republicans said the new money -- which boosts state aid to elementary and secondary schools to $2.6 billion, up nearly $1 billion since 2003 -- will build more schools, expand all-day kindergarten, hire more teachers, raise their salaries and buy more computers, books, supplies and materials for classrooms.
The funding boost "is so astronomical" it took most of the legislative session to figure out how to allocate it more than 40 ways, said Senate President John Valentine, R-Orem.
Lawmakers said they were withholding money for reducing classroom sizes until legislative auditors can investigate reports that districts misappropriated some of the $800 million dedicated for that purpose since 1992."
It would seem that we have a bigger problem than allocating $9 Million for vouchers.
Funding argument is two sided | 10:58 p.m. Oct. 11, 2007
I was talking to a friend the other day about the voucher issue. She brought up
an interesting paradox.
The argument is being made by opponents of the voucher bills about how they don't want THEIR tax dollars to help fund vouchers for parents to send their children to a private school.
The same argument can be made by private school parents who are spending THEIR tax dollars to fund the public school system.
That helped put things into perspective for me. This is much more than an argument about money - it seems more like an argument about power and control.
The argument is being made by opponents of the voucher bills about how they don't want THEIR tax dollars to help fund vouchers for parents to send their children to a private school.
The same argument can be made by private school parents who are spending THEIR tax dollars to fund the public school system.
That helped put things into perspective for me. This is much more than an argument about money - it seems more like an argument about power and control.
Steven Jarvis | 11:03 p.m. Oct. 11, 2007
Voucher pushers contributed to Stephenson and Bramble to name a few legislators.
The AG and even the Governor had contributions that help 'sway' their
loyalties. The only one of the four I named that has managed to stay above the
fray is the Governor who wisely sends the LT. Governor to the town meetings.
The other three have been rather venomous.
I can even back up the accountability issue using the Milwaukee Voucher mess.
But how about a more damning example from Utah perhaps? To my knowledge there has only been one failed Charter school that has been closed. While Charters are Public schools, they operate privately with all the regulations/accountibilty of traditional public schools. They happened to have shredded or destroyed all the student files instead of turning them over to the State because they honestly didn't know that was required. I shudder to think of the mess when all these start-ups would be built to meet demand. Like all private ventures some fail. Are we going to be losing critical student records again? Things like attendance and grade reports may not seem like much. But to those kids trying to go on to college, it certainly is.
I can even back up the accountability issue using the Milwaukee Voucher mess.
But how about a more damning example from Utah perhaps? To my knowledge there has only been one failed Charter school that has been closed. While Charters are Public schools, they operate privately with all the regulations/accountibilty of traditional public schools. They happened to have shredded or destroyed all the student files instead of turning them over to the State because they honestly didn't know that was required. I shudder to think of the mess when all these start-ups would be built to meet demand. Like all private ventures some fail. Are we going to be losing critical student records again? Things like attendance and grade reports may not seem like much. But to those kids trying to go on to college, it certainly is.
Steven Jarvis | 11:13 p.m. Oct. 11, 2007
I also can give an example of a friend's child who was in a Private school
that failed her. I have mentioned this at least a dozen times the past six
months, but it still upsets me to think about it.
The school kicked her out after she wasn't cutting the grade. She was at that point a year behind her peers in the public school in Granite. While I don't know the name of her teacher that she went to after the debacle with the private school, but that wonderful educator brought her back with a lot of help and hard work to grade level. She is now excelling in the public system.
I believe she was so woefully behind where she was capable because those paid to teach her in the private school were not actually trained to teach. I worked once with her on a math assignment from the private school. It was obvious that the normal lesson structure had been skipped over (I doubt the "teacher" knew how Saxon works) and the assignment instead was just given. Public school teachers have a bit higher of a training standard to let that happen.
The school kicked her out after she wasn't cutting the grade. She was at that point a year behind her peers in the public school in Granite. While I don't know the name of her teacher that she went to after the debacle with the private school, but that wonderful educator brought her back with a lot of help and hard work to grade level. She is now excelling in the public system.
I believe she was so woefully behind where she was capable because those paid to teach her in the private school were not actually trained to teach. I worked once with her on a math assignment from the private school. It was obvious that the normal lesson structure had been skipped over (I doubt the "teacher" knew how Saxon works) and the assignment instead was just given. Public school teachers have a bit higher of a training standard to let that happen.
Steven Jarvis | 11:26 p.m. Oct. 11, 2007
I can go on for a dozen more posts. After all I have made education my
career.
I have taught a child two years behind his peers in reading and math by fifth grade that came to our Charter from a Utah County Private LDS school. He had massive speech problems, the kind I had never seen before and his language had not been addressed or serviced at all. Talk to a Speech pathologist and ask them about that. Most language intervention should be started as early as possible and for this child not doing so was a potential travesty.
The stinking point is that the young man was pretty sharp despite his lack of education. He was up to grade level in reading after two years, had better control of his speech problem, and was improving in math though still below grade level in math.
I have taught a child two years behind his peers in reading and math by fifth grade that came to our Charter from a Utah County Private LDS school. He had massive speech problems, the kind I had never seen before and his language had not been addressed or serviced at all. Talk to a Speech pathologist and ask them about that. Most language intervention should be started as early as possible and for this child not doing so was a potential travesty.
The stinking point is that the young man was pretty sharp despite his lack of education. He was up to grade level in reading after two years, had better control of his speech problem, and was improving in math though still below grade level in math.
Steven Jarvis | 11:34 p.m. Oct. 11, 2007
Kim Burningham has only one interest since he has been serving on the state
board of education, and that has been and always will be what is best for the
children of the state of Utah.
The good news for his few detractors is that he is quite past retirement. The bad news, he seems to be living a healthy lifestyle, so I would expect he'll be watching out for Utah kids for years to come.
The good news for his few detractors is that he is quite past retirement. The bad news, he seems to be living a healthy lifestyle, so I would expect he'll be watching out for Utah kids for years to come.
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The long-term benefits of the voucher program far outweigh the short-term pains.