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Utah voucher issue appears doomed
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Re: NotFromUtar | 12:23 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
It is really embarrassing to point out flaws in arguments but is even worse when
it is done with poor grammar and spelling. You miss spelled Utah (now maybe that
was tongue in cheek) but you also miss used
�there� for
�their� twice and yet you put down
those voting against what you see as reasonable as not being smart. The
arguments against the vouchers are overwhelming and the arguments for are very
flimsy, with great self interest and hidden agendas at the root. No one in the
field of education would support it unless it were to make a buck. To vote for
vouchers takes being less than fully informed or self centered motives
wow | 12:24 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
The total lack of actual knowledge of the bill by the vast majority of those
commenting with STRONG opinions on both sides of the issue terrifies me.
You really should understand what it is you are voting for or against before you draw your line.
Then there are those saying that you don't want vouchers because they cater to the rich. They then go on to say that they are already paying for the rich kids' education so why should they subsidize a private education. I will guarantee that those with higher incomes are paying far more in taxes than the cost of their children's education so in effect they are paying for YOUR child's education and you want to rob them of the choice of where some of the money they are paying goes? Typical.
I personally wouldn't use vouchers. I am satisfied with my local schools but I will not stop others from choosing.
Oh and talk to the MANY parents in the Davis district that tried to move their kids to a different school before you tell me we already have choice!
And, it doesn't surprise me that teachers are against something that increases competition for teachers.
You really should understand what it is you are voting for or against before you draw your line.
Then there are those saying that you don't want vouchers because they cater to the rich. They then go on to say that they are already paying for the rich kids' education so why should they subsidize a private education. I will guarantee that those with higher incomes are paying far more in taxes than the cost of their children's education so in effect they are paying for YOUR child's education and you want to rob them of the choice of where some of the money they are paying goes? Typical.
I personally wouldn't use vouchers. I am satisfied with my local schools but I will not stop others from choosing.
Oh and talk to the MANY parents in the Davis district that tried to move their kids to a different school before you tell me we already have choice!
And, it doesn't surprise me that teachers are against something that increases competition for teachers.
To : Can't wait to vote against | 12:27 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
You said "We already have great teachers - let's give them a
raise..."
I agree, let's give GOOD teachers a raise, but government monopolies (aka. Public schools) do not reward GOOD teachers with raises. Good teachers get the same amount as average or bad teachers.
Competition rewards good teachers.
Vouchers will introduce more competition into our educational system, resulting in raises for good teachers.
I agree, let's give GOOD teachers a raise, but government monopolies (aka. Public schools) do not reward GOOD teachers with raises. Good teachers get the same amount as average or bad teachers.
Competition rewards good teachers.
Vouchers will introduce more competition into our educational system, resulting in raises for good teachers.
Comments continue below
andrew | 12:35 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
I wish that all the parents who are pro vouchers would use there intensity to
work for the schools. We all know Charter schools and some private schools
mandate parental involvement in the class. Why haven't you been in the
classroom before this????? We all have a responsibility as member of a
community to be responsible for the situation we created. Parents get in the
classroom and help your students and teachers succeed. Keep the money in Public
Schools!!! Dont give more incentive for the wealthy to take their kids to an
upperclass to get an education.
Steven Jarvis | 12:38 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Chris,
I have worked with two Charter schools so far, and each had certified teachers except in the case of substitutes. Charter Schools do have a higher percentage of ARL candidates, people who have a Bachelor or higher are working on a Master's in education and are temporarily licensed to teach while working through the teaching program. But they too are licensed through the State. This is likely the case with those teachers in question.
I have worked with two Charter schools so far, and each had certified teachers except in the case of substitutes. Charter Schools do have a higher percentage of ARL candidates, people who have a Bachelor or higher are working on a Master's in education and are temporarily licensed to teach while working through the teaching program. But they too are licensed through the State. This is likely the case with those teachers in question.
SuperSingleMa | 12:47 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
I am voting NO. When I decided to send my daughter to a private school, it was
a decision based on what my daughter needed and what I felt would suit her
learning style. Being a single parent making less than 40K a year, we have made
many sacrifices for my daugher's education. I don't have any regrets
or complaints, it has been my CHOICE. In any event, we don't qualify for
the voucher credit since my daughter is currently enrolled in a private school.
The credit is only for people enrolled in the PUBLIC school system, so much for
everyone being able to benefit, it's very misleading.
People who argue this would enable them to have more choices need to know - the grass is not greener on the other side. Private schools require just as much, if not more, parental involvement. There's no such thing as waving a magic wand and having a student excel magically at a private school. Utlimately, we as parents are responsible for supplementing, and supporting our children's educational experiences. Giving vouchers for private schools does not fulfill our accountability as parents.
People who argue this would enable them to have more choices need to know - the grass is not greener on the other side. Private schools require just as much, if not more, parental involvement. There's no such thing as waving a magic wand and having a student excel magically at a private school. Utlimately, we as parents are responsible for supplementing, and supporting our children's educational experiences. Giving vouchers for private schools does not fulfill our accountability as parents.
Did a little research | 12:48 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Just read all the comments here. Seems very few of us (myself included) have
actually researched the issue. Full disclosure: my children attended public
schools; my spouse is a career public-school teacher. I took Grundle's
advice and spent some time on NEA.org, and from the utea.org website found the
"Just Say No" website. I Googled tuition data from Utah private
schools. Found a pro-voucher website. Watched a You-Tube video by Linda and
Richard Eyre. Then I actually read the law. My take? The "Just Say No"
website had some outright misinformation compared to previous data I found, and
as some have pointed out, focuses on "Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt". I
could not find a link on that site to the actual voucher laws that were
passed--hmmm. They referenced several out-of-state studies to support their
points, but from a footnote I found a 2004 USU voucher study highlighting why
Utah's voucher scenario is unique and that seems to support the pro-voucher
stance. In general, the pro-voucher arguments seem logical, straightforward and
accurate (and they had a link to the actual law!).
1) stop the rhetoric!
2) don't believe me!
3) do your OWN research!!
1) stop the rhetoric!
2) don't believe me!
3) do your OWN research!!
Open Your Eyes | 12:54 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
This is for the most part to all of those who love to write in complaining about
anything and everything on a daily basis. It quickly becomes obvious who the
"regulars" are.
In my opinion, the public school system's biggest problem is the parents. The lack of support at school and even at home becomes more and more evident every day (you know the things that parents should be changing at home, i.e. bullying, dress code violation, lack of respect expressed to teachers etc.) Unfortunately, this is affecting every aspect of our lives, as it spills outside of the school day as well.
While it is true that there will always be the "good" and "bad" in every profession, most of our public school teachers are devoted to their cause.
Also, (FYI) not only does Utah give you choice, we also have FREEDOM. If you don't like it here MOVE!!!! Quit complaining about paying for others' education (which is convenient now that you have yours!).
Oh, and just for the record, this is my 1st time commenting AND I homeschool! All while paying my taxes with little or no complaint!!!
In my opinion, the public school system's biggest problem is the parents. The lack of support at school and even at home becomes more and more evident every day (you know the things that parents should be changing at home, i.e. bullying, dress code violation, lack of respect expressed to teachers etc.) Unfortunately, this is affecting every aspect of our lives, as it spills outside of the school day as well.
While it is true that there will always be the "good" and "bad" in every profession, most of our public school teachers are devoted to their cause.
Also, (FYI) not only does Utah give you choice, we also have FREEDOM. If you don't like it here MOVE!!!! Quit complaining about paying for others' education (which is convenient now that you have yours!).
Oh, and just for the record, this is my 1st time commenting AND I homeschool! All while paying my taxes with little or no complaint!!!
Huh? | 12:57 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
To "Answer about Kim Burningham": I'm sure he's a wonderful
man (and by the way, he's not just a "member" of the State Board
of Education, he's the Chairman), but am I the only one who's
disturbed by the fact that this article lists him as the "spokesman"
for the anti-voucher group?. What's wrong with this picture?
Open Your Eyes #2 | 12:59 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
After submitting my comment, I realized that I had failed to mention that my
homeschooled students test with the public schooled kids EVERY year and score so
high that their test results are added to the schools that test poorly in order
to "help" them!?
We need our own schools | 1:01 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Having our kids in the same classes with other children who can't speak
English and many who aren't even US citizens is just unfair to the parents
and their children.
Helping us escape this "educational" environment is the only fair thing to do. With educational vouchers, parents will have true choice. That way they can have their public schools and we can take our children to the schools that we choose.
Helping us escape this "educational" environment is the only fair thing to do. With educational vouchers, parents will have true choice. That way they can have their public schools and we can take our children to the schools that we choose.
Thora Searle | 1:09 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Let's send our children to schools that have a dress code and require that
the students maintain a minimum grade point average or they will be kicked out.
That's a private school. I've got an idea! Let's institute
those same policies in public schools and Wow! Suddenly students have an
environment that "makes" them learn. Public schools can't force
your child to learn. They can't sit on your children. In fact, if a
teacher were to try to make them sit still, they would fact the threat of a
lawsuit. Private schools can - if they don't perform they are kicked out
and back to public school they go. If parents put as much effort into
supporting the teachers and getting involved in their children's education,
as they do trying to get paid for their children to go to private
schools,I'm sure they would see a huge change. Private schools are nothing
more than a status symbol for the parents.
It's about me! | 1:11 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
When did so many of us in society become so selfish? When did it become
"MY" money?
We all pay into the system whether our kids are in school, have been through school, haven't yet started school, or whether we have no kids at all.
I would assume that someone else funded your education, as well as mine.
How sad would it be if we all demanded "MY" share of everything?
How ridiculous would it sound if I demanded unemployment insurance, whether I�m working full time or not, just because �I�ve been paying for it�?
Should I demand a voucher from UTA for MY car, simply because I didn�t think their bus service met my needs?
It's about all kids - not just yours!
We all pay into the system whether our kids are in school, have been through school, haven't yet started school, or whether we have no kids at all.
I would assume that someone else funded your education, as well as mine.
How sad would it be if we all demanded "MY" share of everything?
How ridiculous would it sound if I demanded unemployment insurance, whether I�m working full time or not, just because �I�ve been paying for it�?
Should I demand a voucher from UTA for MY car, simply because I didn�t think their bus service met my needs?
It's about all kids - not just yours!
Re:NotFromUtar | 1:14 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Maybe you should have researched you move from California beyond just the
welfare system!
David H | 1:15 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
The scariest thing of all (regardless of vouchers) is the number of spelling and
grammatical errors that this list of comments contains. It doesn't seem to
be limited to one side or the other, either.
Something obviously needs to be done! I'm not sure that educational vouchers will solve it, though.
Something obviously needs to be done! I'm not sure that educational vouchers will solve it, though.
Anonymous | 1:17 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
WOW,
I directly oppose vouchers because the initial push was to benefit the poor and middle class, but the reality was always that the rich would be the most able to use it.
I directly oppose vouchers because the initial push was to benefit the poor and middle class, but the reality was always that the rich would be the most able to use it.
To Andrew | 1:19 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Regarding pro voucher parents working for schools. How do you know they
don't? I know several parents in our neighborhood who support the concept
of increased school choice who devote several hours a work to our elementary
school and HAVE been in the classroom.
Generalized, unprovable allegations against a class of people based on their opinion on a political issue have no value in an honest policy discussion.
Generalized, unprovable allegations against a class of people based on their opinion on a political issue have no value in an honest policy discussion.
Competition = good education? | 1:24 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Several people have made comments expressing doubts that competition will
improve education.
I'd like to hear how they respond to the following comment:
"Competition is good for education. We have the best university system in the world. Part of the reason for this is that the federal gov't encourages COMPETITION among the universities by tying financial aid to the student. This competition forces universities to improve. Competition among the universities encourages all universities to improve (both public and private) because the schools know the students (and their tuition) can go elsewhere."
Is competition good or bad for education?
I'd like to hear how they respond to the following comment:
"Competition is good for education. We have the best university system in the world. Part of the reason for this is that the federal gov't encourages COMPETITION among the universities by tying financial aid to the student. This competition forces universities to improve. Competition among the universities encourages all universities to improve (both public and private) because the schools know the students (and their tuition) can go elsewhere."
Is competition good or bad for education?
Dave | 1:28 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Re: Competition is good for | 12:21 p.m.
Please, do tell. Which College or University is forced to admit any student who is disinterested in his education, and whose parents can't bother to get involved in their childs education?
Do this, and then maybe I'll believe you analogy!
Please, do tell. Which College or University is forced to admit any student who is disinterested in his education, and whose parents can't bother to get involved in their childs education?
Do this, and then maybe I'll believe you analogy!
Wow! | 1:33 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Thanks, Compete Economically with Asia | 12:14 p.m.
Why didn't we think of this before?
If we are going to compete economically with India and China, we should send our children to Asia for their schooling!
Who needs vouchers?
Why didn't we think of this before?
If we are going to compete economically with India and China, we should send our children to Asia for their schooling!
Who needs vouchers?
Lowell | 1:35 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
To "Another Questioning Ethics":
You need to read the voucher law. It states that schools held in residences or that have less than 40 pupils are not eligible for vouchers. This would rule out "Joy Schools", which are informal arrangements between a handful of parents that rotate to teach pre-schoolers in their homes. Since they don't charge tuition, wouldn't make much sense anyway, would it? But I suspect you already knew that, and of course knew your bashing of Richard and Linda Eyre was just that: "bashing." A little less drama and rhetoric, a little more reasoning, logic and common sense is in order. The real question is: what are the anti-voucher forces afraid of? I just read the original study done by Utah State, which gives a clue: the issue is how do you accommodate the 160,000 additional students expected in the next 10 years without straining taxpayers past the breaking point. The study concludes that tuition tax credits (school vouchers) is a very reasonable way to do it. Why does that threaten the public-school establishment? Because they feel vouchers takes some of the pressure off state lawmakers to continue to raise taxes to fund schools.
You need to read the voucher law. It states that schools held in residences or that have less than 40 pupils are not eligible for vouchers. This would rule out "Joy Schools", which are informal arrangements between a handful of parents that rotate to teach pre-schoolers in their homes. Since they don't charge tuition, wouldn't make much sense anyway, would it? But I suspect you already knew that, and of course knew your bashing of Richard and Linda Eyre was just that: "bashing." A little less drama and rhetoric, a little more reasoning, logic and common sense is in order. The real question is: what are the anti-voucher forces afraid of? I just read the original study done by Utah State, which gives a clue: the issue is how do you accommodate the 160,000 additional students expected in the next 10 years without straining taxpayers past the breaking point. The study concludes that tuition tax credits (school vouchers) is a very reasonable way to do it. Why does that threaten the public-school establishment? Because they feel vouchers takes some of the pressure off state lawmakers to continue to raise taxes to fund schools.
Jan Doe | 1:39 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
So there it is, right out in the open. "We need our own schools" has
no problem expressing the racist motivations in all of this. So far it's
been pretty unstated, but implied. So bottom line it's us and them all
over again. Racism rears its ugly head. Pretty glad you think taking your kids
to a private school will guarantee you don't have to come in contact with
other cultures. Wow!
Anonymous | 1:46 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Thora Searle,
Excellent post. As a teacher I worry about any contact or criticism I place on a child. If I tell them their behavior is incorrect, it is somehow my fault and my job is on the line. We can't discuss that the child has a potential need for special education or that the child can't sit still or.... well you get the picture. It is really a bad way to do education, but we are a sue happy environment.
I have a relative that is leaving education after this year. He feels that if he does not coddle his music students they will take a different class and he would be out of a job. When he looks at what they are paying him and what he is required to put up with it makes no sense for him to stay.
Private schools are not the answer either. What we need is more autonomy in our own classrooms to teach and do what we have been trained for instead of all the babysitting.
Excellent post. As a teacher I worry about any contact or criticism I place on a child. If I tell them their behavior is incorrect, it is somehow my fault and my job is on the line. We can't discuss that the child has a potential need for special education or that the child can't sit still or.... well you get the picture. It is really a bad way to do education, but we are a sue happy environment.
I have a relative that is leaving education after this year. He feels that if he does not coddle his music students they will take a different class and he would be out of a job. When he looks at what they are paying him and what he is required to put up with it makes no sense for him to stay.
Private schools are not the answer either. What we need is more autonomy in our own classrooms to teach and do what we have been trained for instead of all the babysitting.
SuperSingleMa | 1:46 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
To Thora Searle's comment "Private schools are nothing more than a
status symbol for the parents.
Why did you have to make a generalization to ruin your otherwise, thoughful comment?
Such a shame people can't hold exchanges of ideas and productive thoughts without such an insensitive comment. Do you ever think some people send their kids to private schools for religious reasons, or based on the kid's learning style?
Why did you have to make a generalization to ruin your otherwise, thoughful comment?
Such a shame people can't hold exchanges of ideas and productive thoughts without such an insensitive comment. Do you ever think some people send their kids to private schools for religious reasons, or based on the kid's learning style?
Joe Friday | 2:01 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Re: Did a little research | 12:48 p.m.
Your agrument is very interesting in that it "Seems very few of us (myself included) have actually researched the issue".
All we have is opinions, therefore our arguments are invalid, right?
Sorry, I think you're still in our camp.
Look at the list of website that you purported to visit. How many of them have the "FACTS", and how many are just "OPINIONS"? The only "facts" that you list is that a pro-voucher site had a link to the actual law.
Your agrument is very interesting in that it "Seems very few of us (myself included) have actually researched the issue".
All we have is opinions, therefore our arguments are invalid, right?
Sorry, I think you're still in our camp.
Look at the list of website that you purported to visit. How many of them have the "FACTS", and how many are just "OPINIONS"? The only "facts" that you list is that a pro-voucher site had a link to the actual law.
Paul | 2:03 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
The reason why vouchers should be voted down is simple. Public money for private
education is bad public policy. It will significantly increase the tax burden
on all citizens while only benefiting a few. The issue is not whether parents
should have a choice. They already have the choice to send their children to
private school. The issue is whether the choice should be subsidized by
taxpayers. It should not.
Choice | 2:20 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
I keep reading posts where people want to know "why shouldn't parents
have a choice?" They do have a choice. They could choose to get a
job/career with better pay. They could choose to get a 2nd job. They can choose
to do many things to be able to afford private schools for their kids. I work
hard and pay for my kids to go to a private school, as well as taxes for your
kids to go to public school. The last thing we need are kids in the private
schools who's parents aren't willing to work harder to get them in the
schools like everyone else does. Stop reaching into my pockets, I'm not
reaching into yours.
Choice? | 2:27 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Please parents, have all the choice you want but don't make me pay for it.
Why has it become the taxpayers obligation to pay for others to have everything
they don't want to pay for themselves.
By the way, my kids did great in public schools. I agree with the person who wrote that public schools are what you make out of them. I can't stand the UEA or the way teachers complain about how tough their life is compared to everyone else, but the success of any education is determined by the person going after the education. To blame the schools is a cop-out.
By the way, my kids did great in public schools. I agree with the person who wrote that public schools are what you make out of them. I can't stand the UEA or the way teachers complain about how tough their life is compared to everyone else, but the success of any education is determined by the person going after the education. To blame the schools is a cop-out.
Matt | 2:27 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
It is obvious that many of those posting on this site have not read the law or
investigated this matter for themselves. Read the law and do the research before
you vote, people! Don't depend on the ads! We've become a nation of
mindless robots. Take the advice of "Did a Little Research" and do a
little of your own.
Tim | 2:35 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
You are right; I can't see past Kennedy and Pelosi. That's enough for
me on just about any subject.
JBean | 2:53 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Again, why such panic and nastiness over .16% of the education budget?
The Public Ed budget has INCREASED BY $1 BILLION since 2004. With that kind of increase in such a short time, you'd think something might have been done about class sizes, etc.
Instead, it seems all to go to new administrative junk.
Anyway, rich families are not getting much out of it--the poorer families benefit most. And saying it's not enough to help them pay for private school is only an argument for a larger voucher amount anyway.
What's to be so afraid of? Missing less than 1% of the budget, with fewer kids to educate as well, is NOT going to harm the public system.
Vote FOR vouchers
The Public Ed budget has INCREASED BY $1 BILLION since 2004. With that kind of increase in such a short time, you'd think something might have been done about class sizes, etc.
Instead, it seems all to go to new administrative junk.
Anyway, rich families are not getting much out of it--the poorer families benefit most. And saying it's not enough to help them pay for private school is only an argument for a larger voucher amount anyway.
What's to be so afraid of? Missing less than 1% of the budget, with fewer kids to educate as well, is NOT going to harm the public system.
Vote FOR vouchers
To Dave: | 3:03 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Competition is good for education.
If a child is disinterested in education, then a competitive school will try to motivate that child (or the parent will move the child to another school). In a competitive environment, the resources would go to the educators most able to motivate a disinterested child.
The University of Utah, Arizona State University, Salt Lake Community College, BYU, Idaho State University, Westminster, UNLV ,Weber State, Utah State University, Snow, Dixie,and Southern Utah University all compete with each other for potential student's Pell Grants (federal dollars). This competition is healthy because it forces each university to improve in order to attract those dollars.
To answer your question, I believe Salt Lake Community College and Dixie State College have fairly simple entrance requirements. I�m sure a small percentage of their students would be classified as �disinterested in their education�. Both schools must work to provide a good service to their students or they (and their Pell Grants) will go somewhere else.
If a child is disinterested in education, then a competitive school will try to motivate that child (or the parent will move the child to another school). In a competitive environment, the resources would go to the educators most able to motivate a disinterested child.
The University of Utah, Arizona State University, Salt Lake Community College, BYU, Idaho State University, Westminster, UNLV ,Weber State, Utah State University, Snow, Dixie,and Southern Utah University all compete with each other for potential student's Pell Grants (federal dollars). This competition is healthy because it forces each university to improve in order to attract those dollars.
To answer your question, I believe Salt Lake Community College and Dixie State College have fairly simple entrance requirements. I�m sure a small percentage of their students would be classified as �disinterested in their education�. Both schools must work to provide a good service to their students or they (and their Pell Grants) will go somewhere else.
Steven Jarvis | 3:08 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Actually many who post on the voucher related boards are paid to do so in an
effort to persuade public opinion. I wish I could get a dollar for each of my
posts from the Anti-Voucher group, but I doubt they have the funds to pay people
to write all day long.
The most ominous thing though is that the paid people aren't even in Utah. They don't recognize some of the arguments used in the campaign do not apply to Utah while they do in other states. This has led to some of the great unintentional humor that has come from the debate.
The most ominous thing though is that the paid people aren't even in Utah. They don't recognize some of the arguments used in the campaign do not apply to Utah while they do in other states. This has led to some of the great unintentional humor that has come from the debate.
Vote Libertarian | 3:10 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
JBean,
Simply put, we in Utah don't like having a whole lot of outside influence telling us what to say or do. We have enough of that here in the state to tell us already.
Simply put, we in Utah don't like having a whole lot of outside influence telling us what to say or do. We have enough of that here in the state to tell us already.
Steven Jarvis | 3:20 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
To the previous poster:
BYU has more than enough kids that want to get in that they can choose who they admit. I was accepted and graduated from BYU, but many of my friends were not. Like all Private schools, BYU has the power of choice of who to admit, not the parents or students that want to attend.
Why would Vouchers create choice for parents? Are we going to force Private schools to admit any child wielding a Voucher to attend? Until the government steps in and ends private school admittance practice there will never be true freedom of choice for parents like exists in the Public system.
That is what is so sad about the 'choice' and competition issues--Vouchers do not accomplish either.
BYU has more than enough kids that want to get in that they can choose who they admit. I was accepted and graduated from BYU, but many of my friends were not. Like all Private schools, BYU has the power of choice of who to admit, not the parents or students that want to attend.
Why would Vouchers create choice for parents? Are we going to force Private schools to admit any child wielding a Voucher to attend? Until the government steps in and ends private school admittance practice there will never be true freedom of choice for parents like exists in the Public system.
That is what is so sad about the 'choice' and competition issues--Vouchers do not accomplish either.
To Steven Jarvis | 4:08 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Public universities compete with private universities for students (and their
Pell Grants). For example, Stanford and Cal-Berkley compete for students
(Stanford is private and Cal is public). Competition from Stanford improves
the quality of education at Cal and competition from Cal increases the quality
of education at Stanford. (the same could be said about BYU and Utah, but I
didn't want to enflame the BYU - Utah rivalry :)
Competition is good for education because it encourages innovation and efficiency. Vouchers will increase competition in the educational system.
Competition is good for education because it encourages innovation and efficiency. Vouchers will increase competition in the educational system.
Dave | 4:23 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Re: To Dave: | 3:03 p.m.
You missed my point. I agree that competition is great for "higher education". It works for exactly the reasons you state. They must compete for those who are �motivated�, �choose� to, and are "interested" in, "furthering" their education.
However, higher education and primary education aren�t comparable. For example:
No one is mandated to attend higher education. In most cases, attendance is voluntary. What professors can teach is not mandated by the �State�. Professors aren�t judged by class test scores. Professors teach the information � if you get it great, if not, too bad � you can take it again next semester � and pay for it again. Students can choose whatever major they like � as long as they qualify. There is no option to attend the �free� publicly funded University if you can�t or don�t want to pay for college.
BTW, why don�t you take a straw poll of teachers to see how many would volunteer to teach the �disinterested� student class? I�d be willing to bet (if it were legal in Utah) that teachers would love to see �disinterested� students move to another school!
You missed my point. I agree that competition is great for "higher education". It works for exactly the reasons you state. They must compete for those who are �motivated�, �choose� to, and are "interested" in, "furthering" their education.
However, higher education and primary education aren�t comparable. For example:
No one is mandated to attend higher education. In most cases, attendance is voluntary. What professors can teach is not mandated by the �State�. Professors aren�t judged by class test scores. Professors teach the information � if you get it great, if not, too bad � you can take it again next semester � and pay for it again. Students can choose whatever major they like � as long as they qualify. There is no option to attend the �free� publicly funded University if you can�t or don�t want to pay for college.
BTW, why don�t you take a straw poll of teachers to see how many would volunteer to teach the �disinterested� student class? I�d be willing to bet (if it were legal in Utah) that teachers would love to see �disinterested� students move to another school!
Unconvinced | 4:32 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
The burden of "proof" rests on those proposing the voucher system.
Apparently the polls show that the voucher advocates have failed to convince us
that vouchers are a good idea. For the voucher advocates to throw a tantrum and
whine because of their failure is irrational and silly... perhaps that is why
the proposal was so ineffective. Voucher advocates, the challenge is simple:
show us your moxy and come up with a better proposal. Otherwise, sit down and be
quiet.
Anne | 4:36 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Why hasn't anyone yet called the voucher idea what it really is?
It already exists in the college system for use by state, private, and religious colleges. It is available to all students who qualify. Those who qualify but still cannot/do not make use of it simply decline to accept it. It is rated on a family income-based scale. It is funded by state and federal tax money. It can be used by students in good standing regardless of race or religion, and is available to aid students with disabilities.
It is called student financial aid, or financial scholarship in aid.
Vouchers for elementary and secondary schools are simply a form of public scholarship aid, much like the aid available to students attending colleges across the USA. Only in this case, the public gets to vote on it.
It already exists in the college system for use by state, private, and religious colleges. It is available to all students who qualify. Those who qualify but still cannot/do not make use of it simply decline to accept it. It is rated on a family income-based scale. It is funded by state and federal tax money. It can be used by students in good standing regardless of race or religion, and is available to aid students with disabilities.
It is called student financial aid, or financial scholarship in aid.
Vouchers for elementary and secondary schools are simply a form of public scholarship aid, much like the aid available to students attending colleges across the USA. Only in this case, the public gets to vote on it.
Anonymous | 4:45 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
"Why shouldn't the parents be able to make the choice? Please give us
more information on why it is bad!"
Parents have choices now. They can send their kids to a public school, a private school, or home school. What more do you want?
What's bad about vouchers, you asked? The government now provides an education for all kids. If someone is not satisfied with what is provided, they are free to go someplace else and get what they want... and pay for it.
Parents have choices now. They can send their kids to a public school, a private school, or home school. What more do you want?
What's bad about vouchers, you asked? The government now provides an education for all kids. If someone is not satisfied with what is provided, they are free to go someplace else and get what they want... and pay for it.
Steven Jarvis | 4:52 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Competition is a great thing. The Universities want you to compete to get into
them as much as admitting the highest caliber student body possible. The better
the student body admitted, the higher the school's results academically,
professionally and even athletic will be the end result.
However, Vouchers do not introduce competition to the education market in Utah. The Public system cannot recruit the best and is required to take all comers. That is why it is Public. Our Public schools cannot discriminate and therefore cannot compete with Private entities that can. Further the Public system has both state and Federal requirements that must be met, while the Private school does not.
In order to create true education competition in Utah, the Voucher system must compel Private schools to compete to the same standards of admittance and academic performance as the Public ones. This would leave Private schools no better off than the Public and is why some Private schools will not accept Vouchers even if approved by the voters in the election. In the end Vouchers do not promote competition between the two systems.
However, Vouchers do not introduce competition to the education market in Utah. The Public system cannot recruit the best and is required to take all comers. That is why it is Public. Our Public schools cannot discriminate and therefore cannot compete with Private entities that can. Further the Public system has both state and Federal requirements that must be met, while the Private school does not.
In order to create true education competition in Utah, the Voucher system must compel Private schools to compete to the same standards of admittance and academic performance as the Public ones. This would leave Private schools no better off than the Public and is why some Private schools will not accept Vouchers even if approved by the voters in the election. In the end Vouchers do not promote competition between the two systems.
Teacher | 4:59 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
As a teacher I would prefer the "truly" disinterested student be moved
on to a vocational program rather than have them take away from the right of
others to an education. Moving them on to another school does not fix the
problem with the student, just makes them someone else's problem.
Rational Thought | 5:01 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Let's keep the free markets open.
Vote against Vouchers and Public interference in Private education.
Vote against Vouchers and Public interference in Private education.
Brent | 5:07 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
So that is the real question: is "education competition" a good or a
bad idea, especially at the required elementary, junior and high school levels?
Too many voucher supporters assume simply that the "free market
system" works for the US economy, so it will work for education.
Unfortunately, nobody has adequately argued that point. It is not at all clear
that competition in education is a good idea, especially when attendance is
required by law. Maybe vouchers could be a good idea IF public education was not
mandatory. Crack that nut first, and then you might get a good hearing on
vouchers.
Randy Herbert | 5:08 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
120,000 ++ signatures on a petition to overturn a law passed by our gov't
types up on the hill ....
i dont see/get the idea that there will be 120,001 voters coming out to vote for ref #1
as for kim h .... 5 of my 7 children graduated from high school with honors, two of those in the top 5%, one as a junior .. those same 5 high school graduates with honors have or will shortly graduated from college ...
its not the school system, its the parents .. we came from west virginia and our children had wait a year and a half before the utah school system caught up to where they were ..
the reason for the wait ... special education children IEPs and 504s babysitting by the teachers who then cant teach a 50 minute lesson; suspended students moving from one school to the next school just to be suspended again; non-english speaking students; teachers on eternal 3 yr plans to get highly qualified
this voucher issue isnt really the beast of utah, tax reform is going to be the beast as we californians bring prop13 to utah make tax assessment sane again
i dont see/get the idea that there will be 120,001 voters coming out to vote for ref #1
as for kim h .... 5 of my 7 children graduated from high school with honors, two of those in the top 5%, one as a junior .. those same 5 high school graduates with honors have or will shortly graduated from college ...
its not the school system, its the parents .. we came from west virginia and our children had wait a year and a half before the utah school system caught up to where they were ..
the reason for the wait ... special education children IEPs and 504s babysitting by the teachers who then cant teach a 50 minute lesson; suspended students moving from one school to the next school just to be suspended again; non-english speaking students; teachers on eternal 3 yr plans to get highly qualified
this voucher issue isnt really the beast of utah, tax reform is going to be the beast as we californians bring prop13 to utah make tax assessment sane again
Open Your Eyes | 5:16 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Go Randy!!!!! Finally people are figuring out that the biggest problem is the
PARENTS and lack of support for the system and teachers!!!
KennedyPelosiMoveonDotorg | 5:31 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
I am anything but a liberal but the commercials run by the voucher backers
turned me off with their assinine attempt to connect the rejection of vouchers
with all things perceived evil. This has nothing to do with Kennedy, liberals or
coffee drinkers.
Well, I am voting against it.
Well, I am voting against it.
Anonymous | 5:33 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
But aren't we supposed to trust parents? Let the parents decide what is
the best for their child?
Anonymous | 5:34 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Here are some cons for the voucher program. At $3000.00 a student, most
families will still be unable to put their children in a private school (tuition
runs upwards of $8000.00). Those schools in affluent areas will probably see a
decrease in class sizes however, other schools will not see any difference.
Much of the money will go to those that are already paying for private schools
and taking their children out of the school system. The money that would be
used for vouchers could pay for more teachers salaries or even give them a raise
so the teaching market is more competetive meaning public schools can pick from
better teachers. I have also heard the argument for vouchers that private
school means parents are more involved. That argument is flawed because parents
who are not involved in their childrens schooling won't pay for a private
school, because they are not involved. The same parents will be involved in
their childs education whether it is at a private school or not. Once the
voucher system becomes needs based so every child who needs private school can
afford it, I'll consider voting for it, but until then my vote is no.
Truth in Advertising | 6:15 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Both sides have to start being honest. The latest commercial for those in favor
claim a big east union is funding this campaign. They fail to tell you that
this union represents each teacher's union in each state, then they throw
in names such as Clinton and Kennedy as if they are giving money to this
anti-voucher clause. I have never read anything about them giving money. (I do
not support those two in anyway, I find them dishonest at the very least).
I can't remember what the anti-voucher group has said, but when I heard it the facts are not truthful.
For five years there is a seperate funding for the vouchers. No money will be taken from schools at all during this five years. All of the money for vouchers comes from a seperate pot of money. THe legislature will decide after five years how to fund the vouchers.
We claim we want to change public schools, yet only about 30% vote on who is to be a board member. Open houses at elementary schools are packed, middle schools even less packed and high schools are a laugh at how few parents come. BECOME INVOLVED IN PERSON
I can't remember what the anti-voucher group has said, but when I heard it the facts are not truthful.
For five years there is a seperate funding for the vouchers. No money will be taken from schools at all during this five years. All of the money for vouchers comes from a seperate pot of money. THe legislature will decide after five years how to fund the vouchers.
We claim we want to change public schools, yet only about 30% vote on who is to be a board member. Open houses at elementary schools are packed, middle schools even less packed and high schools are a laugh at how few parents come. BECOME INVOLVED IN PERSON
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