Reader comments
Utah voucher issue appears doomed
219 comments | Read story
swrl | 9:49 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Don't forget who tried to legalize the same without representation and ram
rod what our representative government thinks is good for us. That would be the
future Senator Shurtleff
Steven Jarvis | 9:54 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Kim H,
The Private schools don't want all our kids. My friend's daughter was kicked out of one for academic issues. They had been paying for the school for more than a year, but I suppose she was going to make them look poorly when they did a test.
The Private schools don't want all our kids. My friend's daughter was kicked out of one for academic issues. They had been paying for the school for more than a year, but I suppose she was going to make them look poorly when they did a test.
Comments continue below
Steven Jarvis | 10:02 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
I am tired of the incorrect assertion that the schools keep the money when a
child withdraws from the public school. It never goes to the school if the
child is not enrolled.
Utah funds based on October 1st enrollment. If the private schooler is already gone before that, not a single cent 'stays' in the school. If enough of them leave or don't enroll for some reason, then teachers are moved to another school or laid off as was the case at Liberty.
The mitigation funds are only for five years and are equalized among the schools. Those funds are not going to make up the difference of having the child at the local school, and will result in a net loss of money for the Public school.
Utah funds based on October 1st enrollment. If the private schooler is already gone before that, not a single cent 'stays' in the school. If enough of them leave or don't enroll for some reason, then teachers are moved to another school or laid off as was the case at Liberty.
The mitigation funds are only for five years and are equalized among the schools. Those funds are not going to make up the difference of having the child at the local school, and will result in a net loss of money for the Public school.
DBG | 10:02 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
The anti-voucher camp never ceases to amaze me in their flawed arguments. Those
against vouchers claim that special ed kids won't get their needs? HELLO!
What does the Carson Smith Scholarship do? Exactly that! The Public schools
cannot meet those needs so the Carson Smith Scholarship is nothing more than a
voucher for disabled children.
Man, you really eat into the rhetoric on the anti-voucher camps. I have yet to see one ounce of evidence from an anti-voucher camp that is solid. Each argument can be easily disputed. Private schools are accountable, they require a test. The schools must be approved BY THE STATE BOARD beofre they can take a voucher. Qualified teachers? What is the value of a certificate anyway? Hardly anything. Most teachers in private schools are professionals. There is a requirement for that.
Public funds go to private entities all thetime.
I don't have the time or desire to refute every flawed anti-voucher argument. It is clear that you are ignorant to the law and lack understanding of the overall picture. Quit cherry picking it.
Man, you really eat into the rhetoric on the anti-voucher camps. I have yet to see one ounce of evidence from an anti-voucher camp that is solid. Each argument can be easily disputed. Private schools are accountable, they require a test. The schools must be approved BY THE STATE BOARD beofre they can take a voucher. Qualified teachers? What is the value of a certificate anyway? Hardly anything. Most teachers in private schools are professionals. There is a requirement for that.
Public funds go to private entities all thetime.
I don't have the time or desire to refute every flawed anti-voucher argument. It is clear that you are ignorant to the law and lack understanding of the overall picture. Quit cherry picking it.
Methinks ye protest too much | 10:05 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
I can't help but note that the amount of money spent on advertizing against
vouchers is almost on par now with the total amount authorized to fund vouchers
this next year.
As a percentage of the total amount of school funding in Utah, the proposed voucher authorization doesn't even show up as a recognized rounding error.
So, if it isn't really the money (which is vaguely alluded to in all the anti-literature) all that is left as a rationale for the unions spending millions of dollars to defeat vouchers is a potential loss of union power.
As vouchers are already in place in a number of states--for years, can anyone point to an objective example of ruined schools as a result of the vouchers?
Until there is something presented, other than anti-voucher hysteria advertizing paid for by the teachers' unions, I'm not going to be persuaded by a bunch of chicken-littles --no matter how many millions are sent on negative commercials and political flyers.
As a percentage of the total amount of school funding in Utah, the proposed voucher authorization doesn't even show up as a recognized rounding error.
So, if it isn't really the money (which is vaguely alluded to in all the anti-literature) all that is left as a rationale for the unions spending millions of dollars to defeat vouchers is a potential loss of union power.
As vouchers are already in place in a number of states--for years, can anyone point to an objective example of ruined schools as a result of the vouchers?
Until there is something presented, other than anti-voucher hysteria advertizing paid for by the teachers' unions, I'm not going to be persuaded by a bunch of chicken-littles --no matter how many millions are sent on negative commercials and political flyers.
Anonymous | 10:18 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Panacea,
Even in a 'great' Charter school we still have around fifteen percent not attend parent teacher conference last year in the elementary grades.
Anti-voucher Fluff | 10:21 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
What's the big deal about giving some relieve to those interested enough in
their childeren's education to find a better way. The public schools need a
little competition anyway to not be so complacent. The public schools, at least
the grade schools are in bad shape. Our Davis County School (elementary) is so
so bogged in processes and teaching down to the lowest child's level thet
our child now hate's going to school after years of enjoying it. One year
our children were even home schooled and they stepped right back into the public
school maze and mess without even skipping a beat. As far as the argument about
private schools "not requiring a teaching degree", so what!! The
degrees teachers have in the public schools - at least elementary, sure
don't mean a whole lot about their abilities! I will say that the high
schools do allow for students to apply their abilities and advance faster. I say
go for the vouchers and let the results fall out where they may. If it turns out
to not be of value, it will fade away.
Where is the choice? | 10:22 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Has anyone tried moving children to a different public school? We have and we
were told no. Public schools in Weber County don't have "open
enrollment" we were told. We're stuck.
Vouchers would only help us afford private school, it wouldn't pay for it. Public schools get to keep 72% of the money allotted to them anyway. Most of the money and fewer students sounds like a win for public schools to me.
Vote for the vouchers!
Vouchers would only help us afford private school, it wouldn't pay for it. Public schools get to keep 72% of the money allotted to them anyway. Most of the money and fewer students sounds like a win for public schools to me.
Vote for the vouchers!
mel | 10:27 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
I believe everyone has the right to choose how their children are to be
educated, but it should be at their own expense if they want a private
education. I have had three children graduate from the public education system
and it has been my experience that you typically get out of it what you put into
it. The problem in my mind, is that more and more parents work and don't
have (or take) the time to ensure that their children are working at their
education. Yes, Utah's schools are at capacity but my children prove that
an excellent education is available if the motivation is there.
Ethics | 10:29 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
I guess Utah State Representative Greg Hughes will have to find another way for
taxpayers to subsidize his private school customers. Nice ethics, Greg. You
should be doing the work of the people in the first place, not attempting to
steal tax dollars to subsidize your private school. Your customers currently
have the choice to send their children to your private school. They do not need
my tax dollars to subsidize that choice.
Could you imagine if all legislators were attempting to pass bills to directly subsidize the businesses they were involved in? How crooked would that be?
Could you imagine if all legislators were attempting to pass bills to directly subsidize the businesses they were involved in? How crooked would that be?
bob | 10:32 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
You already have a choice. I pay to educate your kids now. If you want private
school pay for it yourselves and not on the back of someone else.
Vouchers are welfare for the rich.
Dont vote for that nonsense
Vouchers are welfare for the rich.
Dont vote for that nonsense
freethoughtoday | 10:35 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
maybe they can run some more adds saying that you should be pro voucher if your
LDS or anti-gay? Oh wait, that didn't work too well did it? Oh well,
better luck in some other conservative state with your little experiment.
Anonymous | 10:38 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
It is surprising to me how many people in this state line up with the UEA and
NEA. And shocking to me that so many oppose individual choice. Vouchers would
bring MORE money into the state education system. Even if it were only by the
rich it would still bring in MORE total dollars spent on education. There is a
sliding scale with more voucher support for lower income families giving those
with no choice some assistance.
Also to those who say some teachers are not certified at private schools I would argue does that really matter? One of my kids best teachers was let go because she could not get her Utah certification. She was let go because she was missing one unrelated class and could not get it in time. She had a related masters degree but was missing one stupid undergrad class that was required by the beuracracy. The principal had no choice or options. Did the certification help in this case? A piece of paper saying you are a certified teacher does not make you a great teacher.
Also to those who say some teachers are not certified at private schools I would argue does that really matter? One of my kids best teachers was let go because she could not get her Utah certification. She was let go because she was missing one unrelated class and could not get it in time. She had a related masters degree but was missing one stupid undergrad class that was required by the beuracracy. The principal had no choice or options. Did the certification help in this case? A piece of paper saying you are a certified teacher does not make you a great teacher.
Solomon | 10:43 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
dblagent007 | 6:56 a.m. states:
"We tried everything we could to get our son out of this teacher's class and/or get the teacher out of the school. Nothing worked. Union rules prevented the school from firing her until about three-fourths of the way into the school year."
Thanks for pointing this out. In fact, you can find this "Union Rule" in Article 15, Section 2, Paragraph 8 of of the Union Rule Book: "Teachers can't be fired until about three-fourths of the way through school."
"We tried everything we could to get our son out of this teacher's class and/or get the teacher out of the school. Nothing worked. Union rules prevented the school from firing her until about three-fourths of the way into the school year."
Thanks for pointing this out. In fact, you can find this "Union Rule" in Article 15, Section 2, Paragraph 8 of of the Union Rule Book: "Teachers can't be fired until about three-fourths of the way through school."
Walkon | 10:44 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
I am so tired of the paranoid rhetoric being thrown out by the pro voucher
crowd. What "forced agenda" are teachers being "forced" to
teach? Most citizens of our great state are intelligent enough to see through
the BS from the pro voucher group. That is why the numbers are rising. We are
becoming more educated and the choice is clear. NO to vouchers , and enough
already with the Ted Kennedy/ evil NEA nonsense!
Steven Jarvis | 10:44 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
DGB,
I guess the value of a certificate is meaningless to you. So I'd assume that instead of going to a Doctor, you would rather have your neighbor cut you open?
Certification is just the minimum. Teachers put in a lot of time improving on it after word and perfecting their craft. It also indicates that a background check has been performed so no felons are working with your child. At least Vouchers would now require a back ground check, but certification should be as well. I do know that many Private schools do require certification, and those are the top ones. They also cost more than 10K a year.
I think the cost issue beyond the voucher is the largest sticking point that the Pro Voucher crowd cannot refute. Face it, the poor are still shut out of the Private schools.
I guess the value of a certificate is meaningless to you. So I'd assume that instead of going to a Doctor, you would rather have your neighbor cut you open?
Certification is just the minimum. Teachers put in a lot of time improving on it after word and perfecting their craft. It also indicates that a background check has been performed so no felons are working with your child. At least Vouchers would now require a back ground check, but certification should be as well. I do know that many Private schools do require certification, and those are the top ones. They also cost more than 10K a year.
I think the cost issue beyond the voucher is the largest sticking point that the Pro Voucher crowd cannot refute. Face it, the poor are still shut out of the Private schools.
Any one Notice? | 10:48 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
You know why private sectors have less rules and regulations about how things
are done? Because things given into public hands are crappy, put together jobs a
lot of the time. But you give the same thing to private investers or individuals
and quality goes up, so there isn't as much need for excess rules. This is
basic economics.
I don't know much about what is in the voucher, but I know that when someone wants to make money, they generally do a better job than a publisized institution where no one can get rich.
I don't know much about what is in the voucher, but I know that when someone wants to make money, they generally do a better job than a publisized institution where no one can get rich.
Ballot Wording | 10:50 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
I just voted by mail. There was nothing in the voter info that mentioned the
$9.2 million to ensure stable funding for the public schools. I found out about
that in this article. Had I known that fact, I would have voted for vouchers.
Anonymous | 10:49 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
I only read through half of the comments so I apologize if this has already been
stated. First off there are many private schools out there for children with
special needs, The Carmen Pingree school is one. These parents are already
paying "their fair share" in other areas so why not let them get a
great education for their children
Second, the private schools will be held accountable, read the amended bill. Anti-voucher people are not looking at the whole picture and are thus being misled by propaganda.
Please educate yourself and do not make a decision based on what you have heard. Look up the bill, read it and its amendment. If you are confused talk to your legislator and they can answer your questions.
Second, the private schools will be held accountable, read the amended bill. Anti-voucher people are not looking at the whole picture and are thus being misled by propaganda.
Please educate yourself and do not make a decision based on what you have heard. Look up the bill, read it and its amendment. If you are confused talk to your legislator and they can answer your questions.
Two reasons vouchers are bad | 10:50 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Competition is fine when there is a level playing field. Unfortunately, that is
not the case with vouchers. There are two glaring reasons for this.
First, public schools are saddled with restrictions and accountability standards that private schools simply do not have. Public schools have a limited pool of educators (those that are certified), while private schools can hire whom they will. Public schools are required to accept all students and provide services for them (speech, resource, psychology, etc.). Private schools have no such responsibility. Public schools are required to administer standardized tests. Private schools do not. etc.
Second, since the voucher program provides almost no discriminating factors for the institution receiving the funds, religious-based schools are eligible. The Utah constitution does not allow for public funding of religious education, and rightly so. We live in a country where freedom of religion is guaranteed. Therefore, is it right that public funds support a religious school? Is it right that taxpayer money funds religious indocrinization of any kind? You can answer these questions however you will, but the state constitution says, "no."
I have read many postings that want reasoning based on logic, not fear. I give you two.
First, public schools are saddled with restrictions and accountability standards that private schools simply do not have. Public schools have a limited pool of educators (those that are certified), while private schools can hire whom they will. Public schools are required to accept all students and provide services for them (speech, resource, psychology, etc.). Private schools have no such responsibility. Public schools are required to administer standardized tests. Private schools do not. etc.
Second, since the voucher program provides almost no discriminating factors for the institution receiving the funds, religious-based schools are eligible. The Utah constitution does not allow for public funding of religious education, and rightly so. We live in a country where freedom of religion is guaranteed. Therefore, is it right that public funds support a religious school? Is it right that taxpayer money funds religious indocrinization of any kind? You can answer these questions however you will, but the state constitution says, "no."
I have read many postings that want reasoning based on logic, not fear. I give you two.
L | 10:53 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Call your legislator. Ask what part they have in the building or running of
private or charter schools. If you do your homework, you will find that fully
1/3 of the state legislature have their fingers in building, running or selling
their land to private or charter schools. For them its good business to pass
the vouchers. Also listen to the pro-voucher commercials. They say that Utah
parents, not government know whats best for their children. Then they go on to
say tha t this is Why Gov Huntsman and the Utah state legislature passed the
voucher bill because they know what is best for our children. I also take
umbrage at the insinuation that I am in any way aligned with Ted Kennedy, NEA,
or Moveon.org. Talk about the spawn of you-know-who (I didn't say it
because I don't want him to know where I am)
Anonymous | 10:59 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
I'm considering a fire sprinkler system for my home. Perhaps I could get a
fire voucher. If I promise to use the freeway less, maybe I could get a gas tax
voucher. And, by the way, the animals at the zoo are the lowest common
denominator, San Diego�s zoo is far superior. How about a
zoo voucher?
We're becoming an ala carte society and that's not necessarily good. We listen only to music we know, watch special interest cable T.V., and put DVD players in our cars so children needn�t look outside while we're on vacation.
Many Utahans think by controlling the inputs for our children, we can control the outcomes. I don't think it works that way.
A true education doesn't just equip children with a set of repeatable facts but with the skill set to deal with a real and diverse world.
If all the musically talented people in my high school were removed, none of us would have learned to sing. Public education could be our last best chance to have a civil and respectful society. To be pro voucher you have to be willing to say "My children are just too good to strengthen the group."
We're becoming an ala carte society and that's not necessarily good. We listen only to music we know, watch special interest cable T.V., and put DVD players in our cars so children needn�t look outside while we're on vacation.
Many Utahans think by controlling the inputs for our children, we can control the outcomes. I don't think it works that way.
A true education doesn't just equip children with a set of repeatable facts but with the skill set to deal with a real and diverse world.
If all the musically talented people in my high school were removed, none of us would have learned to sing. Public education could be our last best chance to have a civil and respectful society. To be pro voucher you have to be willing to say "My children are just too good to strengthen the group."
Shocked! | 11:01 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
I cannot believe that there are so many that discredit the value of the teaching
certification!
As an investor, I would never rely on financial statements on which a certified public accountant had not signed off. I wouldn't want a lawyer to represent me, if he or she hadn't passed the BAR exam. And as a parent, I would find it extremely difficult to trust the teaching of a teacher that wasn't certified.
The certification process is valuable in that it provides basic assurance to parents that the teacher has undergone a rigorous program of education, has the requisite education degrees, and is at least competent in core areas of pedagogy. To me that is incredibly important. I'm shocked that more parents don't think so!
As an investor, I would never rely on financial statements on which a certified public accountant had not signed off. I wouldn't want a lawyer to represent me, if he or she hadn't passed the BAR exam. And as a parent, I would find it extremely difficult to trust the teaching of a teacher that wasn't certified.
The certification process is valuable in that it provides basic assurance to parents that the teacher has undergone a rigorous program of education, has the requisite education degrees, and is at least competent in core areas of pedagogy. To me that is incredibly important. I'm shocked that more parents don't think so!
John Doe | 11:06 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Here's the way I see it. Utahn's are too close to this issue to see
it clearly. And anti-government, anti-union hysteria continues to dominate
Utah's mindset.
Despite have the lowest per student funding of any state, Utah consistently ranks near the top in public school quality and education. It also ranks near the top for percent of students graduating from high school, as well as percentage of students continuing to college. So apparently Utah is doing something right, and should be probably be a model for other states.
Choice: Utah currently has the most choice in education of any state. Your child can attend another school in your district, a different district, a charter school, a private school or be home schooled. What else do you need? Free private schooling???
And do you really want to trust a corporation with your child's education? Corporations exist for only one thing, to perpetuate themselves, and to make a profit for their shareholders. Not even the government is as impersonal as that.
So wake up Utah you already have all the choice you could want and an excellent education system as well
Paranoia and ignorance are driving this debate.
Despite have the lowest per student funding of any state, Utah consistently ranks near the top in public school quality and education. It also ranks near the top for percent of students graduating from high school, as well as percentage of students continuing to college. So apparently Utah is doing something right, and should be probably be a model for other states.
Choice: Utah currently has the most choice in education of any state. Your child can attend another school in your district, a different district, a charter school, a private school or be home schooled. What else do you need? Free private schooling???
And do you really want to trust a corporation with your child's education? Corporations exist for only one thing, to perpetuate themselves, and to make a profit for their shareholders. Not even the government is as impersonal as that.
So wake up Utah you already have all the choice you could want and an excellent education system as well
Paranoia and ignorance are driving this debate.
Statement | 11:08 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
When a parent applies for the voucher under House Bill 148, he or she has to
sign a statement saying:I acknowledge that: (1) A private school may not provide
the same level of services that are provided in a public school. (2) The
private school in which I have chosen to enroll my child has disclosed to me the
teaching credentials of the school's teachers and the school's
accreditation status. (3)I will assume full financial responsibility for the
education of my scholarship student if I accept this scholarship (4) Acceptance
of this scholarship has the same effect as a parental refusal to consent to
services pursuant to Section 614(a)(1) of the Individuals with Disabilities
Education Act, 20 122 U.S.C. Sec. 1400 et seq."
In other words the parent is required to state that there is a lower standard of services, teachers do not have to be licensed, the voucher is worth less than the tuition and I waive the rights of my child to recieve resource service.
What low income family could come up with an additional $3-5,000 dollars to pay tuition? Think people
In other words the parent is required to state that there is a lower standard of services, teachers do not have to be licensed, the voucher is worth less than the tuition and I waive the rights of my child to recieve resource service.
What low income family could come up with an additional $3-5,000 dollars to pay tuition? Think people
John | 11:11 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Time to ramp up some changes on the Hill with this and make schools/teachers
more accountable for a child's education. No accountability - no money,
isn't that the message of the union?
Or is it really about control?
Or is it really about control?
Sam Adams | 11:13 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
I have no problem with public education per se it's the union having so
much sway over public education that concerns me. I once had the Pres. of the
UEA say to me "parents have no business telling us how to educate their
children". As a parent of four I personally believe I should have a great
deal of discretion in my child's education. Get rid of the UEA replace it
with a more family friendly organization that will do justice to the
"good" teachers of Utah and the sun will shine on public ed.
The UEA and its multitudinous cronies that sit in almost every position of power over public education are the source of the disease that infects our public education system.
The UEA and its multitudinous cronies that sit in almost every position of power over public education are the source of the disease that infects our public education system.
Confused | 11:20 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
The pro-voucher arguments seem to be trying to have it both ways:
First I hear that it's all about parental choice and that every parent should have the option to use a voucher to move their child to a "better" school if the public school isn't meeting their needs.
But then in response to concerns about the cost, the argument seems to be that only a very small percentage of people will qualify for vouchers (based on income) and that not everybody will be able to use vouchers.
And finally, I hear the argument that lower-income children should have the same options as the "rich kids", but it is clear that the vouchers won't come close to covering the whole cost of private schooling.
After trying to sort out the facts from the hype, it seems to me that the only kids that would benefit would be the kids who can almost (but not quite) afford private schools.
Unless the voucher supporters can make a better argument than what I've heard so far, I can't see why I would support vouchers.
First I hear that it's all about parental choice and that every parent should have the option to use a voucher to move their child to a "better" school if the public school isn't meeting their needs.
But then in response to concerns about the cost, the argument seems to be that only a very small percentage of people will qualify for vouchers (based on income) and that not everybody will be able to use vouchers.
And finally, I hear the argument that lower-income children should have the same options as the "rich kids", but it is clear that the vouchers won't come close to covering the whole cost of private schooling.
After trying to sort out the facts from the hype, it seems to me that the only kids that would benefit would be the kids who can almost (but not quite) afford private schools.
Unless the voucher supporters can make a better argument than what I've heard so far, I can't see why I would support vouchers.
Funny I did not receive... | 11:22 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
An opt out form for my child to sit out SAT testing this week at his private
school. I believe that the SAT is a standardized test.
KH | 11:25 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
I'm tired of Voucher supporters saying this issue is about
"Choice". You already have the right to choose where your kids go to
school, vouchers are only about where the money to fund your choice comes
from.
I would be "FOR" removing government control of education, but that's not what Vouchers are about.
The Voucher issue should have nothing to do with your decision to leave public schools or not. If you are really convinced the public schools are the "Wrong" place your kids, they should already be out (regardless of whether you can get someone else to pay for it or not).
Are the voucher supporters with kids still in public schools saying, "Public schools are bad, but I'm going to leave my kids there unless I get my $500-$3000 check from the government"? If so, you are selling your children pretty cheaply.
Some pro-voucher advertising also bothers me, "Vote FOR utah families, vote FOR choice, etc". Like if you don't vote FOR vouchers you are "Against" Utah families, against choice. Give me a break. This is about one and only one thing. MONEY.
I would be "FOR" removing government control of education, but that's not what Vouchers are about.
The Voucher issue should have nothing to do with your decision to leave public schools or not. If you are really convinced the public schools are the "Wrong" place your kids, they should already be out (regardless of whether you can get someone else to pay for it or not).
Are the voucher supporters with kids still in public schools saying, "Public schools are bad, but I'm going to leave my kids there unless I get my $500-$3000 check from the government"? If so, you are selling your children pretty cheaply.
Some pro-voucher advertising also bothers me, "Vote FOR utah families, vote FOR choice, etc". Like if you don't vote FOR vouchers you are "Against" Utah families, against choice. Give me a break. This is about one and only one thing. MONEY.
Anonymous | 11:29 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
If the pro-voucher people say this is all about providing good education for
their children why haven't they been getting involved with them already in
the schools they are in now. Parent participation in public schools is pathetic.
Look at the turn out at parent teacher conferences. What makes them think that
putting them in another school with possible non-trained teachers will cause
them to become "involved" with their children's education then?
NotFromUtar | 11:30 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Don't let the liberals decieve you! Vouchers will alleviate the overcrowed
classes by giving people (There) own money back to take there kids elsewhere!
This couldn't make more sense, I am just confused why such a conservative
state is so against vouchers??? I feel like I am back in California again with
all the liberals, I guess I need to move to Idaho where there are true
conservatives and smarter voters...
Chris | 11:47 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Talk to the teachers who have had home schooled kids reintroduced into their
classes. The majority are not well educated. Now, do charter schools require
their teachers to be certified? The answer is no. If they tell you yes go and
ask their teachers. The local charter school in Lehi has teachers who are not
only not certified but don't even have a college diploma in the area they
are teaching and some don't even have a college diploma.
The real issue is that are public schools are already underfunded, now they will less funded if the voucher law passes. SAY NO TO VOUCHERS!
The real issue is that are public schools are already underfunded, now they will less funded if the voucher law passes. SAY NO TO VOUCHERS!
dcc | 11:49 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
You have a choice in schools. You just have to pay for it. All the voucher
supporters want is a handout.
Anonymous | 11:51 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
So i have a question, if you put your child/children in private school with
using the private voucher. SO ill assume its a poor family getting 2,000.
(just an example amount) So in the class you decide the teacher and school are
not meeting your needs and withdraw that student since you hold the school
accountable. SO what happend to that 2,000 dollers of public tax money you just
wasted. Do we get it back or does your holding that school accountable just
waste that money?
Can't wait to vote against them | 11:53 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Especially after seeing Richard and Linda Eyre promote them last night on TV.
Lets make our public schools the best in the world. We already have great
teachers - let's give them a raise and help them out all we can.
To: NotFromUtar | 11:54 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Dear NotFromUtar:
I find it ironic that you make fun of Utahns and tell us that we are not "smart voters." And then you incorrectly use "There" when you should use "their." (There is a difference, you know)
Don't you dare accuse people of being unintelligent for trying to engage in a meaningful debate on a divided issue. I'm glad that people are studying the issue, sharing their opinions, and analyzing the information before making a decision.
I find it ironic that you make fun of Utahns and tell us that we are not "smart voters." And then you incorrectly use "There" when you should use "their." (There is a difference, you know)
Don't you dare accuse people of being unintelligent for trying to engage in a meaningful debate on a divided issue. I'm glad that people are studying the issue, sharing their opinions, and analyzing the information before making a decision.
Jane Doe | 11:57 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
I'm concerned by the poor grammar of so many of the voucher supporters.
Dingus | 11:57 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
NotFromUtar: Giving them there own money back? Pah! The people who are
rabidly pro-voucher pay very little taxes.
For the Voucher | 12:00 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
If you went to a store and didn't get the service you needed so you went to
the store across the street and got the service you wanted would you want to
have to pay over half the cost to the first store for nothing. Those tax dollars
should belong to the student to receive an education and not belong to a school
or district. If you move to another school district that money goes with the
child it doesn't stay with the original school district. Schools districts
should be getting a clear message from this that we the parents are not happy
with them controlling us and they know we have no say or control over what they
do to our kid or what kind of service they provide or the quality of teachers
they provide something must be done to gain control over system
0007 | 12:01 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Vouchers reduce class size? Never! I don't see 10 private schools with 1000
empty seats each. They're already full! Vouchers won't create extra
private school seats. Odds are, we won't see a single school district
reduce one student per classroom through their entire system.
By the way, how are the kids in rural Utah going to get to all these private schools so their poor parents can exercise their choice? Choice for people with no options is no choice. Vouchers are a giveaway to the rich.
By the way, how are the kids in rural Utah going to get to all these private schools so their poor parents can exercise their choice? Choice for people with no options is no choice. Vouchers are a giveaway to the rich.
Lars | 12:01 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
The problem for vouchers is they will only help the rich. It is the new cast
system our locals have cooked up so they can have a handout for their 10,000 a
year private schools. Average Utahn's can't do this at all. Money
given to public schools is given by a head count. It all goes hand in hand with
the splitting of school districts. Poorer areas or new growth areas not even
being given any saying in the splits by our local state represenitves, thus
giving the rich a break in not helping build schools for the new growth areas or
to maintain the older areas in thr pooer side of town. They wont let the public
have a say at all if they can help it. Rich is right in utah everyone else needs
to work for them and say nothing. Your vote is already gone on school splits and
they are working on the rest.
From Utah | 12:02 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
To NotFromUtar--please do move back to California.
Dick | 12:13 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Those that say this whole issue is not about choice are absolutely right. This
is not about choice, this is not about choice, this is not about choice.
This is about Money!!!
It's interesting that people say parents will now have "choice" if vouchers are inacted. However, clearly those at the bottom end of the economic ladder still won't have "choice". So, I guess the argument is, "as long as me and those in my economic situation will be able to afford private school, I'm for this bill but if those lower than me don't have the same choice, that's too bad."
It's not a sincere argument to say this allows parents to have choice when it only grants that to a subset of the population.
In conclusion, have I mentioned this voucher argument is not about choice?
This is about Money!!!
It's interesting that people say parents will now have "choice" if vouchers are inacted. However, clearly those at the bottom end of the economic ladder still won't have "choice". So, I guess the argument is, "as long as me and those in my economic situation will be able to afford private school, I'm for this bill but if those lower than me don't have the same choice, that's too bad."
It's not a sincere argument to say this allows parents to have choice when it only grants that to a subset of the population.
In conclusion, have I mentioned this voucher argument is not about choice?
Compete Economically with Asia | 12:14 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
The long-term economic competitiveness of the United States will suffer if we
continue to allow K-12 education to be dominated by a government monopoly (aka.
public schools).
I work in a high-paying field, but most of my colleagues are from India and other Asian nations. The education systems of many Asian countries are rapidly improving. If we are going to compete economically with India and China, then we must improve our K-12 schools.
Protecting the mediocrity that comes with government run schools is going to decrease the United States' ability to compete economically with Asia.
Innovation in our K-12 schools will be the foundation of our ability to compete economically with anyone. However, that innovation will usually not happen in schools controlled by a government monopoly.
Failure to act will result in the economic decline of our nation. The middle-class may be the hardest hit by that decline and may actually result in a greater divide between the rich and poor.
I want my children to be able to compete economically. I want the children of the United States to be able to compete. Let�s make it possible by providing our resources to those educators with a willingness to innovate.
I work in a high-paying field, but most of my colleagues are from India and other Asian nations. The education systems of many Asian countries are rapidly improving. If we are going to compete economically with India and China, then we must improve our K-12 schools.
Protecting the mediocrity that comes with government run schools is going to decrease the United States' ability to compete economically with Asia.
Innovation in our K-12 schools will be the foundation of our ability to compete economically with anyone. However, that innovation will usually not happen in schools controlled by a government monopoly.
Failure to act will result in the economic decline of our nation. The middle-class may be the hardest hit by that decline and may actually result in a greater divide between the rich and poor.
I want my children to be able to compete economically. I want the children of the United States to be able to compete. Let�s make it possible by providing our resources to those educators with a willingness to innovate.
mel | 12:17 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Someone just said that "vouchers would alleviate the overcrowed
classes". I just think it would decrease the number of teachers each
school will hire. I would think it would have to, because there would be less
money to pay for the staff. It is possible that I don't know what I am
talking about (wouldn't be the first time) but it makes sense to me....
Besides, I think the people who would need the help the most - still won't be able to afford sending their children to a private school. The voucher proposal would help the middle income classes the most.
Besides, I think the people who would need the help the most - still won't be able to afford sending their children to a private school. The voucher proposal would help the middle income classes the most.
Panacea | 12:18 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
KH 11:25 a.m.:
Right On!!! Excellent job... tellin' it like it is!!!
Right On!!! Excellent job... tellin' it like it is!!!
Competition is good for | 12:21 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
education.
We have the best university system in the world. Part of the reason for this is that the federal gov't encourages COMPETITION among the universities by tying financial aid to the student. This competition forces universities to improve. Competition among the universities encourages all universities to improve (both public and private) because the schools know the students (and their tuition) can go elsewhere.
We have the best university system in the world. Part of the reason for this is that the federal gov't encourages COMPETITION among the universities by tying financial aid to the student. This competition forces universities to improve. Competition among the universities encourages all universities to improve (both public and private) because the schools know the students (and their tuition) can go elsewhere.
Another Questioning Ethics | 12:22 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
I, like "Ethics," would like to know how many Utah legislators are
feathering their own pockets on the back of this voucher proposal. Evidently
Greg Hughes belongs on this list. Marty Stephens, I read, also has some
conflicting interest relative to private schools. Of course, Richard and Linda
Eyre (seen in pro-voucher advertisements) would support vouchers because they
pioneered the "Joy Schools" venture and thus could personally benefit.
It makes me wonder who else (including Governor Huntsman) would benefit
financially if the voucher scenario came to pass. I think this might be an
interesting research project for the Deseret News team of reporters--a full and
comprehensive list of those in government who would benefit financially from the
passage of the voucher proposals.
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We have NCLB, UPASS, IDEA just to name a few of the things we must do. At least with Vouchers the government can get its foot in the door of Private education and start controlling that too.