Reader comments
Utah voucher issue appears doomed
219 comments | Read story
Brian | 12:50 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
I still don't get why they oppose the vouchers. They say it harms families?
Okay how? There ads are vague and don't really tell you why the vouchers
are bad.
Harold Shaw | 12:56 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Vouchers for less than two percent of Utah's students create shadows of
caste establishment. Thus, unfavorable views appear in polls. Vouchers to all
student's parents may have been a better idea.
Brad | 12:58 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
I agree with Brian. They say it is "Full of flaws". What are they? Why
shouldn't the parents be able to make the choice. Please give us more
information on why it is bad!
Comments continue below
Jim | 1:53 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Vouchers would take money away from the already woefully underfunded public
schools; what more explanation is necessary?
Of Course they are going down | 2:04 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Funny. The more the pro-voucher people advertise, the more people see right
through the mess.
Did I actually read that the anti-voucher side has gained 3% percentage points?
Excellent. Let's make all of the schools better not just those for the rich and famous.
Did I actually read that the anti-voucher side has gained 3% percentage points?
Excellent. Let's make all of the schools better not just those for the rich and famous.
Doug Slater | 5:42 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
If it is really about educating the kids..what's the problem? The big
argument seems to be control of education by the unions.
Coach | 6:08 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Parents have a choice. Send your children to a different school, nobody has a
problem with that. It is just that nobody wants to give you money to do that.
Nobody wants to give public money to schools that have no public accountability.
The issue is really quite simple, and it is not about choice. You already have
a choice.
Mr. Bill | 6:08 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
I don't think you will find one proposal that won't at least have a
few questions. We can't simply walk away from something because there are
unknowns. Anti-voucher opponents may find that this tactic will backfire against
them in the future when they provide proposals of their own.
All I see from the anti-voucher crowd at this point is that maintaining the status quo is the best future for Utah's students. As Clark Kerr is reported to have said, "The status quo is the only solution that cannot be vetoed."
All I see from the anti-voucher crowd at this point is that maintaining the status quo is the best future for Utah's students. As Clark Kerr is reported to have said, "The status quo is the only solution that cannot be vetoed."
Aaron | 6:20 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Can someone help me out? Isn't Kim Burningham the Head of the Utah
Department of Education?
stephencpace | 6:20 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Why doesn't the Leg. just do the same thing as with the soccer stadium?
Pass it anyway and ram it down the public's throat. Who runs this state?
Report | 6:37 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Let me ask the panel here. How come is fair that our school districts pay for
1/2 or the full salary of union presidents around the state, so she or he can
carry out the Union work? Spending the tax money in business no related to
education, but politics "it is wrong". UEA preach but doesn't
practice! I would love to see the Deseret News write a report regarding this
issue.
dyc | 6:47 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Schools that accept voucher money are not held to the same standard as Public
Schools. They don't have to have certified teachers. They don't have
to have programs to help special ed children. They don't have to give the
end of year Core Test, that all public students must take to show their yearly
progress. If a child isn't successful in their school, they can kick the
child out. I wouldn't be opposed to vouchers if they treated all children
fairly, but with vouchers, the schools can take our public tax dollars and not
be held accountable if children don't succeed; unlike public schools.
Cameron | 6:50 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Aren't the legislators that are pushing vouchers so hard the same ones that
are also pushing Charter schools? Since Charter schools are not Private schools
it makes you wonder what is their real agenda. With some former legislators are
in the business of building Charter schools, is their hope that when the
charters run out that they will have a system of private schools in place,
complete with tuition vouchers. Are they hoping to reap the rewards of their
legislative efforts? Whose best interest do they have in mind, their
constituents or their own?
dblagent007 | 6:56 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Vouchers hurt government control over education. Certain people (government
lovers) don't like that. The essential question here is who should decide
how children are educated - the government or parents. If you say parents, then
vote for the vouchers.
When my son started kindergarten, we found out that his teacher was disliked by almost all of the parents from last year's class (she was rude, condescending, treated the children like they were complete idiots, etc.). We found out that our son was put in that class because we had just moved into the area and the school seemed to believe that new move-ins wouldn't know this teacher's reputation.
We tried everything we could to get our son out of this teacher's class and/or get the teacher out of the school. Nothing worked. Union rules prevented the school from firing her until about three-fourths of the way into the school year. Meanwhile my child's education suffered dramatically. If vouchers would have been available to us, our son would have been out of there as fast we could take him. Instead, my son's education suffered at the hands of the teacher's union. Giver parents the choice, not government.
When my son started kindergarten, we found out that his teacher was disliked by almost all of the parents from last year's class (she was rude, condescending, treated the children like they were complete idiots, etc.). We found out that our son was put in that class because we had just moved into the area and the school seemed to believe that new move-ins wouldn't know this teacher's reputation.
We tried everything we could to get our son out of this teacher's class and/or get the teacher out of the school. Nothing worked. Union rules prevented the school from firing her until about three-fourths of the way into the school year. Meanwhile my child's education suffered dramatically. If vouchers would have been available to us, our son would have been out of there as fast we could take him. Instead, my son's education suffered at the hands of the teacher's union. Giver parents the choice, not government.
VoteForOne | 7:16 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Perhaps government schools are underfunded because a significant number of
Utahns don't like their one-size-fits-all approach.
If you're in the majority, don't oppress the minority that wants to pull their children and some of their money out of what many consider to be a failed system.
Let our people go.
Vote for Referendum One.
If you're in the majority, don't oppress the minority that wants to pull their children and some of their money out of what many consider to be a failed system.
Let our people go.
Vote for Referendum One.
Dennis | 7:23 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
I am totally opposed to the voucher system for one simple reason, tax increase.
The cost of this program is huge and anyone who thinks that the government will
"give" money out without making up for it some where else is
dreaming.
I am not pro public schools or against the voucher program. I am against getting stuck with even higher taxes. Somwhere this has got to stop so my answer to the voucher program is NO!
I am not pro public schools or against the voucher program. I am against getting stuck with even higher taxes. Somwhere this has got to stop so my answer to the voucher program is NO!
DUCKWORTH | 7:29 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
THE ONLY THING THE TEACHER'S ARE FEARING IS THAT MORE STUDENT'S WILL
EXIT THE SCHOOL DISTRICT'S TO GET A BETTER EDUCATION / THE SCHOOLS HAVE
TO TEACH DOWN TO THE LOWEST DENOMINATOR STUDENT THUSTLY THE STUDENT'S THAT
WANT'TO LEARN CAN NOT UNTILL THE LOWEST STUDENT GET'S TO THEIR LEVIL
LET ALONE LEARN TO SPEAK ENGLISH
Concerned Parent | 7:33 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Education of your children is the parents job, not the public education system.
Vouchers (especially lower income) will help parents educate their children the
way they want to. Why do we insist on throwing more money at a system that is
broken and so entrenched that it fails to change and adapt to its environment.
Vouchers will send a clear message to educators that if they continuously fail
to perform, they may lose their livelihood. Something needs to send a message
to the UEA and the State Department of Education. Voting against the vouchers
tells those organizations, UEA and dept. of Ed., that the job they perform is
adequate, if not preferred. Vote Yes to wake up UEA and dept. of Ed. Vote Yes
for Change. Vote Yes for Parents. Vote Yes for the future. Most importantly,
Vote Yes for the Children
The Truth | 7:40 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Vouchers don't take the money away from the public schools at all. The
actually leave an average of $5,500 there to fund a student that will no longer
attend the school, thus lowering class sizes and increasing per student funding.
This is about parent's right to choose. Parents know best, not a huge
state agency. When schools are held accountable directly to the parents,
that's when true progress will begin. As I learned in my Econ. class back
in the day, competition makes everyone better. It's time our public
schools faced a little competition of their own.
Clare | 7:46 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
I'm a school teacher and I'm a member of the teacher's union.
Believe me, I or my fellow members do not control the schools. I wish. Maybe
then I could get some of my parents to get out of denial and get the help for
their children they so desperately need. It breaks my heart that I can't
help my darling students. I need more help in my classroom. Boy, could I tell
you some stories.
Taxes | 7:56 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Large families pay the lowest amount of taxes already because they have so many
exemptions they can claim. Now you want me to turn around and have them receive
more money back from the government so they can put their kids into a private
school. Sorry, no way. The burden of education ought to be equal to the number
of kids being put in to the system. A program that will increase my tax burden
is not one I can support.
Emotion vs Logic | 8:00 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
All I've heard is the typical Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt language from
the Anti-Voucher crowd. Too bad we eat that stuff up so much and check out our
brains. I've seen 2 assertions here: 1. Vouchers take money out of the
public schools. That's true, but they also take out over twice the cost
AND reduce class size. 2. Private schools aren't held to the same standard
as public schools. That may be true, I don't know. What I do know is that
as a parent, I'm not going to move my children to a school, private or
public, that I haven't checked out how well the school is going to educate
my children. In short, this assertion only reflects the general attitude that
parents are unable to advocate for their own children. What a terrible view of
life. I'm still waiting to hear a legitimate assertion from the
Anti-voucher crowd that is based on logic rather than appealing to the baser
emotions of fear.
Local Control | 8:02 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
I see a LOT of "pros" for the voucher idea, and very few
"cons". The single biggest "pro" is that over the years, the
NEA has become a national control center, taking away local control of our
schools. Utah schools are being forced to teach an agenda put together by a very
liberal national bureaucracy. If we can allow parents who are concerned about
the NEA agenda an option to put their children in schools that can teach values
and information important to them, it brings some amount of control back to a
local level.
Did you know that most of the money going to defeat the voucher laws, which were passed by our local government, is coming from the NEA? In other words, from your federal tax dollars. Why? Because they have fought hard over the years to become the controlling body they are, and they don't want to relinquish control back to the local level!
Support vouchers to support local control of our education in Utah!
Did you know that most of the money going to defeat the voucher laws, which were passed by our local government, is coming from the NEA? In other words, from your federal tax dollars. Why? Because they have fought hard over the years to become the controlling body they are, and they don't want to relinquish control back to the local level!
Support vouchers to support local control of our education in Utah!
Unions and Money | 8:03 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
"The Truth" stated something that I have heard a lot: "Vouchers
don't take the money away from the public schools at all." If
that's true, why do the pro-voucher folks keep saying that vouchers will
hurt the NEA? How does giving public schools the same amount of money and
lowering their enrollment base hold that school "accountable"?
Something just does not add up with the pro-voucher position. It just seems to
be internally inconsistent: we don't like the control of the unions, so
let's give them the same amount of money and cut back their workload--we
don't like government-run programs, so let's get the government
involved in private programs--public schools aren't accountable, so
let's send our kids to private schools with fewer accountability standards.
I'm waiting for a coherent argument in support of this particular voucher
program. Right now, I just really feel like the pro-voucher argument is
"through the looking glass."
One final comment, neither side has helpful advertising, but at least the anti-voucher ad talks about the issue. The only pro-voucher ad I've seen just throws up pictures of Ted Kennedy and Nancy Pelosi and calls it a day. I have to believe Utah sees through that tact.
One final comment, neither side has helpful advertising, but at least the anti-voucher ad talks about the issue. The only pro-voucher ad I've seen just throws up pictures of Ted Kennedy and Nancy Pelosi and calls it a day. I have to believe Utah sees through that tact.
Orangebeast | 8:06 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Most people who oppose vouchers do so because they do not understand the
legislation, or the issues at hand. They fear that money is being taken away
from public schools. First, this is not true. The voucher laws that were
passed do no such thing.
Secondly, public funds belong to the public. Why should we not have a say in how they are used? The voucher program will create a competitive marketplace for education. The free market will very quickly weed out the worst educational providers, be they public or private. Why is freedom of choice such a bad thing?
History has proven time and again that the private sector can provide higher quality goods and services much more efficiently than any government can (the X-Prize competition for space flight is a recent example). If anything, a little competition will force our government schools to improve the quality of the service they provide.
Please support the voucher legislation.
Secondly, public funds belong to the public. Why should we not have a say in how they are used? The voucher program will create a competitive marketplace for education. The free market will very quickly weed out the worst educational providers, be they public or private. Why is freedom of choice such a bad thing?
History has proven time and again that the private sector can provide higher quality goods and services much more efficiently than any government can (the X-Prize competition for space flight is a recent example). If anything, a little competition will force our government schools to improve the quality of the service they provide.
Please support the voucher legislation.
Chris | 8:09 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
The most interesting argument against vouchers is the idea of hiring more
teachers.
But too many districts are feathering the management nest, building or replacing schools and adding everything but more teachers.
Lets see the teaching association, and the districts actually put more teachers in the class rooms.
A few years ago, Alpine School district reduced the number of students at Legacy Elementary, shifting to another school.
Funny thing, teachers also decreased and class size remained the same. Shame on Alpine School District and shame on the UEA for profering misleading information.
I am all for the public education system. Lets see it be held accountable.
But too many districts are feathering the management nest, building or replacing schools and adding everything but more teachers.
Lets see the teaching association, and the districts actually put more teachers in the class rooms.
A few years ago, Alpine School district reduced the number of students at Legacy Elementary, shifting to another school.
Funny thing, teachers also decreased and class size remained the same. Shame on Alpine School District and shame on the UEA for profering misleading information.
I am all for the public education system. Lets see it be held accountable.
Newman | 8:11 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
To dblagent007:
Why didn't you simply transfer your son to a neighboring public school (state law mandates open enrollment) when you became disatisfied with your child's education situation? You also could have investigated the charter school options. Become better educated at the existing options available to your family before jamming an ill-conceived, badly written, and inadequately debated voucher law down my throat.
Why didn't you simply transfer your son to a neighboring public school (state law mandates open enrollment) when you became disatisfied with your child's education situation? You also could have investigated the charter school options. Become better educated at the existing options available to your family before jamming an ill-conceived, badly written, and inadequately debated voucher law down my throat.
Local Contral is a Crack Up | 8:17 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
NCLB came from Bush, not the NEA. That would mean it came from conservatives,
not liberals. Local Control, you don't know what you are talking about. The
NEA is a solid union. And they have improved education through a number of
clueless administrations that cut funding to education(Bush I, Bush II,
Reagan).
Not a Parent | 8:22 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
I have no children - and in the past have been very opposed to vouchers. But
after much thought, study, & consideration I am now a supporter of vouchers.
Why? Because I read in other states how teachers are now, by law, able to teach
the children things that should be very alarming. And even after very vocal
protests by parents - it is the school & teachers who win the fight. I say
it is time to allow every parent the option of choice, if they so desire, to
remove their children from an unacceptable teaching environment. To allow
students to learn the basics of learning without all the ever increasing social
& political correctness that is rampant in this country. My vote is YES for
vouchers - and YES for the future of children.
Vitality | 8:27 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
I would like to make a couple of points regarding vouchers.
1) So, rather than help to build up our school system, a group of people continue to blame the schools for everything. If the pro-voucher people would put as much effort into improving our public schools as they have put into getting vouchers approved, the school system would be markedly improved.
2) I would love to send my children to a private school, but the proposed vouchers would not allow me to do so even if they passed. Private schools cost way more than the proposed vouchers. Providing vouchers simply gives a discount to people who can already afford to send their kids to private school anyway.
3) As soon as private schools have the same accountability as do public schools I will perhaps begin to support a voucher program. However, private schools can "kick out" the undesirables and the low performers. The public school is required to take everyone, and I believe they do a pretty good job.
4) I thought conservative Republicans were against increased government involvement in our lives. I guess I was wrong.
1) So, rather than help to build up our school system, a group of people continue to blame the schools for everything. If the pro-voucher people would put as much effort into improving our public schools as they have put into getting vouchers approved, the school system would be markedly improved.
2) I would love to send my children to a private school, but the proposed vouchers would not allow me to do so even if they passed. Private schools cost way more than the proposed vouchers. Providing vouchers simply gives a discount to people who can already afford to send their kids to private school anyway.
3) As soon as private schools have the same accountability as do public schools I will perhaps begin to support a voucher program. However, private schools can "kick out" the undesirables and the low performers. The public school is required to take everyone, and I believe they do a pretty good job.
4) I thought conservative Republicans were against increased government involvement in our lives. I guess I was wrong.
Answer about Kim Burningham | 8:29 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Kim Burningham is on the State Board of Education. He is one of the most
intelligent people I have ever met. His dedication to the state of Utah and
it's children is something we should all be proud of. If he has a problem
with this then we should stop and listen. Children First are is motto.
Kim H. | 8:31 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
What's wrong with vouchers and a little competion in the education
department? Nothing! The private schools want your student and they are willing
to meet the needs of your child to get your student. Public schools don't
need to impress you to keep their jobs.
I have been private schooling my four children for the last 12 years. Now that the oldest children are in public schools, they're in gifted classes and when pressed for state evaluations, they score off the charts.
How many of your children say they love to learn? If they don't, then some where the "system" has failed them.
Where is the best education? It is not in the public schools. I recommend that parents do a little homework themselves and find the best school they can for their own children, rather they be special needs, gifted or still working on their potential.
Don't listen to people in paid positions try to con you by bringing in talk about the devil. This is an old addage brought on to distract you. Keep strong.
Competion will make the whole school system better. By not voting for vouchers, you are voting against your own child(ren). Vote FOR vouchers.
I have been private schooling my four children for the last 12 years. Now that the oldest children are in public schools, they're in gifted classes and when pressed for state evaluations, they score off the charts.
How many of your children say they love to learn? If they don't, then some where the "system" has failed them.
Where is the best education? It is not in the public schools. I recommend that parents do a little homework themselves and find the best school they can for their own children, rather they be special needs, gifted or still working on their potential.
Don't listen to people in paid positions try to con you by bringing in talk about the devil. This is an old addage brought on to distract you. Keep strong.
Competion will make the whole school system better. By not voting for vouchers, you are voting against your own child(ren). Vote FOR vouchers.
cdmom | 8:38 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Vouchers are to be funded out of the General Fund, this year it will be $9.2
million! The money will go up each year as we add another class to those who
are eligible for vouchers. This is tax money, not some money growing on the
Legislature's money tree. In 13 years the estimated cost of the vouchers
will be $428 million.
What will happen when there is a drop in the economy? Where will the Legislature make cuts?
The funniest part of the whole Legislation is that the PCE and Legislature want to have private schools funded with tax dollars because the public school system is so bad at educating and at using the money already in the system, but who do they have running the voucher system? The Utah State Office of Education!!!!!
What will happen when there is a drop in the economy? Where will the Legislature make cuts?
The funniest part of the whole Legislation is that the PCE and Legislature want to have private schools funded with tax dollars because the public school system is so bad at educating and at using the money already in the system, but who do they have running the voucher system? The Utah State Office of Education!!!!!
Instereo | 8:40 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
This poll shows that the people of Utah are smarter then the legislature
counted on. It shows that when the will of the people is ignored and the
legislature wants to shove something down their throat that they know they can
put together a referendum, call for a vote, and overturn legislation. I think
the legislature took it for granted that the people of Utah would roll over and
say "OK the Legislature knows best." They were wrong and the people
rose up and are setting things right.
One other word about the NEA. It's funded by local teachers all over the nation who pay dues our of their own individual salaries. It's not funded by federal tax dollars in any way shape or form.
Finally, yelling (typing in all CAPS), complaining about people learning English, and then not spelling words in your arguement correctly doesn't win points for being pro-education/pro-voucher. I'm going to vote NO on referendum 1 because I believe in our local public schools here in Utah and in the teachers that work there.
One other word about the NEA. It's funded by local teachers all over the nation who pay dues our of their own individual salaries. It's not funded by federal tax dollars in any way shape or form.
Finally, yelling (typing in all CAPS), complaining about people learning English, and then not spelling words in your arguement correctly doesn't win points for being pro-education/pro-voucher. I'm going to vote NO on referendum 1 because I believe in our local public schools here in Utah and in the teachers that work there.
-K | 8:40 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
You're not understanding one thing: the pro-voucher position makes schools
more accountable TO THE PARENTS. From what I understand, vouchers will end up
leaving a lot of money behind for the public schools, BUT they will still
'hurt' the NEA in that they will hold it more accountable -- to the
PARENTS instead of to the government that it is an arm of anyway. So
"giving public schools the same amount of money and lowering their
enrollment base" does indeed hold that school more accountable -- to the
parents, because of the simple fact of competition. They have to do better to
keep parents who actually care happy, or they lose their students -- so they do
better. That is the danger with any institution largely run by the government:
because it is a monopoly, it becomes lacksidaisical and lazy because everyone
has to come to it no matter how well or poorly they do. That's what this is
all about: competition and accountability to the parents instead of the
government. Scary thought from famous economist Milton Friedman: education is
the most socialized institution in the USA.
Fritz | 8:44 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
The state provides on average $7000 per student and will pay an average of $2000
for each voucher. Let's see. We give parents $2000 dollars to take their
child to a private school and give $5000 to the school they just left. Is there
a problem with that?
As far as no accountability in private schools, get real there is all kind of accountability. The main reason kids are in the private school is because the public school did not help him or her. Do you think the parents are going to continue paying tuition if their child is not progressing? Yet we do it every day in the public schools. I just got a letter (again) telling me why my child's school is failing No Child Left Behind, but the athletic teams are doing great. I am not making this up.
As far as no accountability in private schools, get real there is all kind of accountability. The main reason kids are in the private school is because the public school did not help him or her. Do you think the parents are going to continue paying tuition if their child is not progressing? Yet we do it every day in the public schools. I just got a letter (again) telling me why my child's school is failing No Child Left Behind, but the athletic teams are doing great. I am not making this up.
Sanity now | 8:54 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
It's not about choice. It's not about choice. It's not about
choice. Choice exists now. It's about taking public money from public
schools to support private schools and private agendas. VOTE NO.
Mike T | 8:56 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Voucher proponents consistently say that no money is being taken from public
schools to fund the program. Where is the money coming from then? What other
needed activity is being gutted to fund this ill-conceived, ultra-right wing
invention?
Utah Native in Wy. | 9:03 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Once again the teachers unions in Utah show that they are unable to compete
openly and honestly and put thier own selfish interests over that of children.
How sad.
grundle | 9:04 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
I am very pro voucher but I will say this:
The pro-voucher radio ads that associate the anti-voucher crowd with Nancy pelosi, Move-on.org, etc... are offensive to me. I think the ads do far more damage than good to the cause.
Lets vote on the facts and leave the rhetoric behind.
Read the law, look at the analysis, and make an informed vote.
The pro-voucher radio ads that associate the anti-voucher crowd with Nancy pelosi, Move-on.org, etc... are offensive to me. I think the ads do far more damage than good to the cause.
Lets vote on the facts and leave the rhetoric behind.
Read the law, look at the analysis, and make an informed vote.
Well here's some logic... | 9:04 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Vouchers are a bad idea because:
1. We have "choice" now.
2. There is not enough capacity now in private schools to handle a small to modest increase in demand. My friend waited TWO YEARS to get his kids in a private school in Layton. Check out the RAND corp analysis of California School voucher idea. Same problem there, not enough "seats". Prices would increase pricing out the middle income, even more. Hence the belief this is a "rich kid scholarship program". Yes, the law, as written, does allow some stipend for all 511,000 school kids, even the rich ones.
3. No matter what you say, how you spin it, it takes money away from the only affordable school system for kids of the vast majority of us. Huge numbers of kids would have to leave the system to allow a reduction in "fixed costs". A small number is likely to leave, leaving no fixed cost savings.
This is a bad idea that will "go to the ash heap of history".
By the way, notice how boy governor ran for the tall grass when this went on the ballot? Hope you all noticed that!
1. We have "choice" now.
2. There is not enough capacity now in private schools to handle a small to modest increase in demand. My friend waited TWO YEARS to get his kids in a private school in Layton. Check out the RAND corp analysis of California School voucher idea. Same problem there, not enough "seats". Prices would increase pricing out the middle income, even more. Hence the belief this is a "rich kid scholarship program". Yes, the law, as written, does allow some stipend for all 511,000 school kids, even the rich ones.
3. No matter what you say, how you spin it, it takes money away from the only affordable school system for kids of the vast majority of us. Huge numbers of kids would have to leave the system to allow a reduction in "fixed costs". A small number is likely to leave, leaving no fixed cost savings.
This is a bad idea that will "go to the ash heap of history".
By the way, notice how boy governor ran for the tall grass when this went on the ballot? Hope you all noticed that!
WC | 9:06 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
The comment is made over and over that vouchers will leave money in the schools.
That would be true if all the voucher users were students already in a school
who leave to a private school. What about the new students who never attend
public school. Over time that will become the majority of Voucher users. Which
is why the states independent audit of the Voucher program shows it costing
millions in extra money to taxpayers.
VOUCHERS ARE A BAD IDEA!
VOUCHERS ARE A BAD IDEA!
Confused | 9:14 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
I still haven't seen a valid reason why parents are going to have any more
say about how things are run in education with a voucher.
So you take your kid out and put them into another system... are you going to have any more say than you have now?
So you take your kid out and put them into another system... are you going to have any more say than you have now?
j | 9:15 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
From an outside observer from another state.
I continue to see no benefit or detriment from allowing vouchers-the sum argument of the pro-voucher people is that it does nothing to change public education, except take a few kids out of it. It also provides little to no help to those who really can't afford anything except public schools as the amounts for the vouchers are insubstantial. So what's the point? Why are you wasting time and effort on this? Setting up a new government program that helps very few people, that will have no tangible results and effectively do nothing....Boy has Utah changed since I lived there.
I continue to see no benefit or detriment from allowing vouchers-the sum argument of the pro-voucher people is that it does nothing to change public education, except take a few kids out of it. It also provides little to no help to those who really can't afford anything except public schools as the amounts for the vouchers are insubstantial. So what's the point? Why are you wasting time and effort on this? Setting up a new government program that helps very few people, that will have no tangible results and effectively do nothing....Boy has Utah changed since I lived there.
JBean | 9:16 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
To any who think the vouchers will cost big money, consider this:
The public education budget for the coming year is $3.5 Billion.
The voucher cost in the coming year is estimated at $5.5 Million, or .16% of the budget. Yeah, real expensive.
Even at 13 years out when fully implemented, the cost is estimated at LESS THAN 2% of the total ed budget.
Public education has seen a $1 Billion dollar increase in its budget just since 2004! Where is the money going? And why are their panties in a bind about such a tiny fraction of it going to give vouchers a chance?
If the public schools are great, then parents won't use vouchers. But the schools are obviously not a fit for all students, so why not let those families take a voucher and foot the bill for the rest of the tuition out-of-pocket?
Public schools are NOT hurt by this program. They are helped, by keeping mitigation money, reducing class sizes, and increasing job opportunities (and thus pay also) for teachers.
Forget Ted Kennedy. Vouchers make economic sense for Utah's burgeoning student population.
Look at the whole picture, and vote YES on Ref.1.
The public education budget for the coming year is $3.5 Billion.
The voucher cost in the coming year is estimated at $5.5 Million, or .16% of the budget. Yeah, real expensive.
Even at 13 years out when fully implemented, the cost is estimated at LESS THAN 2% of the total ed budget.
Public education has seen a $1 Billion dollar increase in its budget just since 2004! Where is the money going? And why are their panties in a bind about such a tiny fraction of it going to give vouchers a chance?
If the public schools are great, then parents won't use vouchers. But the schools are obviously not a fit for all students, so why not let those families take a voucher and foot the bill for the rest of the tuition out-of-pocket?
Public schools are NOT hurt by this program. They are helped, by keeping mitigation money, reducing class sizes, and increasing job opportunities (and thus pay also) for teachers.
Forget Ted Kennedy. Vouchers make economic sense for Utah's burgeoning student population.
Look at the whole picture, and vote YES on Ref.1.
Response to Kim H. | 9:18 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
How many of my kids say they love to learn? I am not a parent - but have
hundreds of kids in my classes. I teach AP classes all day and have hundreds of
kids who love to learn. They too score off the charts and succeed greatly.
They are public school children. Don't try and say our public schools are
failing. In Utah our public schools are some of the best in the nation. We
constantly score high and our students constantly do well. Where is your proof
that public schools are not the best education?
propaganda pure and simple.
Vote AGAINST vouchers.
propaganda pure and simple.
Vote AGAINST vouchers.
Pro- voucher fluff | 9:19 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
I tend to lean more toward the anti-voucher side. I am a student teacher
currently. I see everyday how hard our teachers work, and how very little is
done by parents, legislators, and politicians to show appreciation for a job
well done. I believe that poor teachers ARE NOT the norm in our schools.
The pro- voucher group would like everyone to believe that if this is passed it will create smaller class sizes etc. I believe this is nothing but fluff. $3,500 per year does not even begin to cover the cost of private school, even for those of lower income status.
It seems that when legislators decide what is best for schools they leave out one key component in their processes, the teachers. Ask a teacher what they think, the majority feel vouchers are a mistake.
I believe in the free market system. I believe in capitalism. However, a companies bottom line, and the education of children are completely different things. Where you start out with the same product in business, you don't always start out with a level playing field with children. We get children with disabilities, children from broken homes etc. Vouchers will hurt Utah!
The pro- voucher group would like everyone to believe that if this is passed it will create smaller class sizes etc. I believe this is nothing but fluff. $3,500 per year does not even begin to cover the cost of private school, even for those of lower income status.
It seems that when legislators decide what is best for schools they leave out one key component in their processes, the teachers. Ask a teacher what they think, the majority feel vouchers are a mistake.
I believe in the free market system. I believe in capitalism. However, a companies bottom line, and the education of children are completely different things. Where you start out with the same product in business, you don't always start out with a level playing field with children. We get children with disabilities, children from broken homes etc. Vouchers will hurt Utah!
Panacea | 9:34 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
From listening to the pro-voucher camp and their minions, school vouchers are
the answer for everything.
Johnny can't read - vouchers.
Johnny doesn't feel empowered - vouchers.
Johnny doesn't have a choice but to attend the local school full of "inept" teachers - vouchers.
Johnny's learning is being stunted because he has classmates who can't speak english - vouchers.
Johnny's test scores aren't quite what we think they should be - vouchers.
Johnny's school failed the NCLB (in one category)and is thus "failing" - vouchers.
Johnny's class has too many children - vouchers.
Johnny is being oppressed by the NEA, Ted Kennedy & Nancy Pelosi � vouchers.
Johnny's teacher doesn't pamper him like his "well meaning" mom and dad - vouchers.
Johnny's parents have never been to a "parent" teacher conference - vouchers.
Johnny can text better than he can write - vouchers.
Johnny can't stay awake in class because he was up half the night playing Xbox - vouchers.
Johnny can't concentrate because he had Red Bull and chocolate doughnuts for breakfast - vouchers.
I want my kids in Private school but I just can't bring myself to actually pay for it on my own - vouchers.
Johnny can't read - vouchers.
Johnny doesn't feel empowered - vouchers.
Johnny doesn't have a choice but to attend the local school full of "inept" teachers - vouchers.
Johnny's learning is being stunted because he has classmates who can't speak english - vouchers.
Johnny's test scores aren't quite what we think they should be - vouchers.
Johnny's school failed the NCLB (in one category)and is thus "failing" - vouchers.
Johnny's class has too many children - vouchers.
Johnny is being oppressed by the NEA, Ted Kennedy & Nancy Pelosi � vouchers.
Johnny's teacher doesn't pamper him like his "well meaning" mom and dad - vouchers.
Johnny's parents have never been to a "parent" teacher conference - vouchers.
Johnny can text better than he can write - vouchers.
Johnny can't stay awake in class because he was up half the night playing Xbox - vouchers.
Johnny can't concentrate because he had Red Bull and chocolate doughnuts for breakfast - vouchers.
I want my kids in Private school but I just can't bring myself to actually pay for it on my own - vouchers.
Choice | 9:42 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
dblagent007,
Too bad your child wasn't in Utah. Here we have the Open Enrollment Act allowing parents to choose to enroll their child at any public school. You could also have home schooled.
Too bad you aren't from Utah though. We have the most choice of any state in the Union
Too bad your child wasn't in Utah. Here we have the Open Enrollment Act allowing parents to choose to enroll their child at any public school. You could also have home schooled.
Too bad you aren't from Utah though. We have the most choice of any state in the Union
Nancy | 9:46 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
"That's not a huge difference from the latest numbers, and Barker said
it shows that voucher opponents haven't gained much ground."
You're kidding, right?
July: 57% against, 36% for.
October: 60% against, 34% for.
What the polls show is that no one is fooled by your deceptive advertising - because it's just plain A BAD IDEA!
You're kidding, right?
July: 57% against, 36% for.
October: 60% against, 34% for.
What the polls show is that no one is fooled by your deceptive advertising - because it's just plain A BAD IDEA!
Add your comment
Comments are monitored. Any comments found to be abusive, offensive, off-topic, misrepresentative, more than 200 words or containing URLs will not be posted.
Words Remaining
E-mail address: For internal use only. We may want to contact you to publish your comment (not your e-mail address) in the newspaper or for a separate story idea.
Related content
- Blushing Boss at a loss 9:48 p.m.
- Immigrant tuition bill gets push 9:42 p.m.
- U.S. help has strings attached 9:42 p.m.
- Photo: Fort Hood victim mourned 9:41 p.m.
- Unhappy holidays for charities? 9:41 p.m.
- Teenage boy shot in the leg 9:32 p.m.
- Jazz notes: Young bigs ride bench 9:27 p.m.
- Immigrant children apologize 9:26 p.m.
- Jazz rookies had to grow up quickly 9:25 p.m.
- Group warns Mozambique 9:24 p.m.
- BYU happy to escape with victory
228 - TCU creams U.222
- Editorial: Mormons and gay rights206
- Will state consider gay rights law?149
- Letters: Strange breed in Utah133
- Can BYU root for (ick) Utah Utes?131
- RSL heads to MLS title game124
- Utes remain silent about BCS120
- Celtics crush Jazz104
- TCU stays 4th in AP; Y. 19th, U. 23rd90
Sears is holding a special VIP night Sunday, Nov. 15, in stores and online.
How do you handle kids and contests? Our oldest daughter, 7, is of the...
Advertisement
Latest comments
BYU has been up and down under the watch of Bronco. IF I hear them say "its...
Thank you Jerry Sloan for 20 years of coaching the Jazz. But it is time to...
2004 was our year. 2008 was our year. 2009 looks to be TCU's year. I say...
True, football does make the most money and it has traditionally drawn the...
You summed it up perfectly -- also my reasons for voting ABB next year --...
Why add Sand Diego or UNLV? If you are adding programs becase they have been...
What about loyalty and committment? The schools that broke away from the WAC...
@Christy Sorry I missed the quotation marks You might add @ the original...
Catholic Charities is more than welcome to choose not to receive government...
Sorenson, they tried this in the 1990s with the mega-WAC expansion. It was a...
Advertisements