Deseret News | Growth is extolled

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Growth is extolled

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Rob Shiveley | 2:51 a.m. Oct. 8, 2007

LDS Church growth extolled? According to Wikipedia, the world's population is believed to have reached over 6.7 billion, as of September, 2007. Mormons represent 13 million out of 6.7 billion humans (according to the LDS Church's statistics), or .0019 percent of the world's population.

Christians represent approximately 1.7-2 billion, Buddhists, one of the fast growing of the world's religions, represent up to 1.5 billion, Muslims represent about 1.5 billion and Hindus represents nearly one billion believers. The rest are largely agnostics or atheists or have tribal-based religious beliefs. Keep in mind, nearly 2/3rds of Mormons on record neither attend either church meetings nor the temple regularly, nor do they contribute regularly financially (i.e. are regular tithe payers). So, 4.3 million people out of 6.7 billion (of which Utah's 2.5 billion white people represent the majority of the members) merit an article from a major metropolitan newspaper? Give me a break. The 4th column of government (free press) deserves better critical thinking and better representation.

Amanda Perkins | 6:36 a.m. Oct. 8, 2007

This was an amazing conference session, and I will take the prophet's counsel and use these talks for each FHE. I have six months of Family Home Evening layed out for my family!

This was my first time attending conference in the conference center. I am still reveling in the spirit I felt there, and that I felt so personally administered to. Everyone needs the opportunity to attend conference, and to be able to feel the love and look into the faces of these inspired leaders.

StatMan | 7:08 a.m. Oct. 8, 2007

Interesting that President Hinckley would have given any emphasis at all to the "growth" of the Church because that is an impersonal focus on sheer numbers. Indeed, from the Church's own web site we read: "According to the National Council of Churches, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the second-fastest-growing church in the United States. However, despite its increasing numbers, the Church cautions against overemphasis on growth statistics. The Church makes no statistical comparisons with other churches and makes no claim to be the fastest-growing Christian denomination despite frequent news media comments to that effect. Such comparisons rarely take account of a multiplicity of complex factors, including activity rates and death rates, the methodology used in registering or counting members and what factors constitute membership. Growth rates also vary significantly across the world. Additionally, many other factors contribute to the strength of the Church, most especially the devotion and commitment of its members."

Comments continue below

Turk | 7:19 a.m. Oct. 8, 2007

Rob Shivelely,

Why are you trying so hard to discredit the LDS Church? Why is this news so unworthy for a major metropolitan newspaper? I have a feeling that if a article about the growth of any other religious, or anti-religious group appeared in the paper, you wouldn't be so upset.

Andy Farrar | 7:25 a.m. Oct. 8, 2007

Mr. Shively asks "for a break." Perhaps his mathmatical analysis could take another direction. In early 1823, there were no members and after 11 September that year there was one member. Now, considering all the discrimination early members went thru, including the assasination of Joseph Smith, governmental extermination orders and a trek to the Salt Lake Valley, to have reached 13 million in 2007 is amazing. If the church continues that same rate of expansion into the billions of the earths numbers, future growth will stagger the imagination. Anyone willing to bet on when the first billion occurs?

L.G.R. | 7:27 a.m. Oct. 8, 2007

The exilaration, the good feelings of love, and wanting to do my part to help make the world a better place fill my heart when listening to conference. Thank You, Dear Lord.

Ronald | 7:27 a.m. Oct. 8, 2007

Rob,
If your math skills are as accute as your ability to read an encyclopedia, you should take the time frame of Mormonism compared to Buddists, Muslims, and etc., compute in the LDS growth statistics, multiply all that by the time frame of the conseption of the other religions you've mentioned and bingo... you may get the reason for the excitement over the growth of the church.

Clare | 7:39 a.m. Oct. 8, 2007

As the prophet says, "This is only the beginning of the growth of the church." Look out. Here we come!

Alan | 7:48 a.m. Oct. 8, 2007

Mr. Shiveley, the church IS growing. It has grown tremendously in just the three decades since I was a child. In a day and age when attendance in many churches is shrinking, and growing churches provide spectacular entertainment to draw-in the crowds, it IS notable that a church which expects so much of its members 24-7 continues to grow the way it does around the globe. Clearly, you don't like the church. The fact that so many people decide they do (despite the cynicism and criticism of others) is certainly worth a mention.

Mark | 7:53 a.m. Oct. 8, 2007

I also question the alleged growth of the Church. Considering the size of my own ward in Davis County and incredibly high number of individuals who never attend, I seriously doubt that we have ever really broken the 10 million mark.

I am afraid that membership numbers are like home teaching percentages... highly inflated.

Barrett | 7:58 a.m. Oct. 8, 2007

Utah has 2.55 million people Mr. Shiveley, not 2.5 billion.
Gettin' a little carried away with your numbers there!

KENT ROBINSON | 7:59 a.m. Oct. 8, 2007

ROBERT SHIVELY COMPLETELY MISSES THE POINT. YES COMPARED TO OTHER MAJOR WORLD RELIGIONS THE MEMBERSHIP OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST IS SMALL THE OTHER RELIGIONS HAVE HAD SEVERAL MILLENNIA TO GROW TO THEIR CURRENT NUMBERS. THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LDS HAS HAD LESS THAN TWO CENTURIES. iF IT CONTINUES TO GROW AT ITS CURRENT RATE WITHIN A FEW CENTURIES IT WILL SURPASS MANY OF THE OTHER MAJOR RELIGIONS. BY THE WAY, HE ALSO MENTIONS MANY LDS DON'T ATTEND REGULARLY, HE DOESN'T APPLY THE SAME STANDARDS TO THE OTHER RELIGIONS WHOSE WEEKLY ATTENDANCE AND FAITHFULNESS STANDARDS ARE FAR LOWER PERCENTAGE WISE.

Double Standard, Rob? | 8:02 a.m. Oct. 8, 2007

That's quite a double standard you have. You refer to populations of Buddhists,Hindus, Muslims and Christians as if they're all 100% concrete in their faith "regular-sunday-go-to-meetin' folks" and then you turn around and nitpick the LDS church about it's membership not being "perfect" members.
What percent of those "billions" of other world faiths that you listed fall into that same description you have for the LDS? Do you have ANY idea?
I do. Ever been to Tokyo? One of the largest cities in the world. You ask any citizen what faith they are and 99% will likely tell you they're Buddhist. Ask them a question about Buddhism and the majority can't tell you much if anything at all. Go to a Buddhist shrine during a religious holiday/observance and you'll see maybe a hundred there in worship at a particular time, out of a population of around 12 million. count up the number of Buddhist shrines in the city and I think you'll find that it's really a very small percent (even less than what you were so critical of the LDS faithful over). Other Christians are no different.
I think the problem is your personal bias v. the LDS Church

Mike | 8:03 a.m. Oct. 8, 2007

Rob appears to be a very well informed person who does his research. I suspect also he falls into his own self-described catagory of "agnostic or atheist or tribal-based beliefs". Regardless of its affiliation to the church, the Deseret News is only reporting on what was said at the LDS Conference. And given its affiliation, it shouldn't be surprising that a message given at the LDS Conference would be reported by the News, as the vast majority of its regular readers are church members, not agnostics, atheists or believers in tribal-based rituals.

J.N.Udy | 8:12 a.m. Oct. 8, 2007

I likedthe conference very much,even though we watched on TV here in NM We love President Hinkley and the love he has for everyone. We liked the Saturday afternoon talks very well.

Matthew R | 8:22 a.m. Oct. 8, 2007

Indeed a wonderful conference. What a HUGE blessing to listen to conference. And I hope and pray fervently President Hinckley will be there in six months. Folks like him are among the rarest of the rare.

John Anderson | 8:25 a.m. Oct. 8, 2007

Conference as usual was a wonderful and refreshing experience. I love this time of the year.

About Rob Shiveley's comments, according to wikipedia ("Worldwide percentage of adherents by religion",if you suppose this to be reliable information) it only claims that there are 400 million Buddists not 1.5 billion and the other figures are off. Rob does not know how many members are active, nor much about where the majority of the church membership is. It would do well with any member of any church to not to seek to destroy another religion through their prejudices and bad information.

The church is .19% of the world population not .0019%,which makes "Mormons" just behind the Jew population which is .20%. God never said his church nor people had to be the biggest.

I would encourage all to read the words of the prophets and seek the spirit in guidance so that they may come closer to Heavenly Father and His Son Jesus Christ.

Motab | 8:26 a.m. Oct. 8, 2007

Hey Rob,

Speaking of critical thinking.... Utah has 2.5 BILLION white people?? We should have a few more electoral votes...

Double Standard, Rob? | 8:27 a.m. Oct. 8, 2007

Seems you have quite the double standard Rob. You promote billions of Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus and Christians like they're all 100% practicers of their faith and then turn around and then rip LDS for not being perfect. Can you tell me what percent of Buddhists are regular in their keeping the faith? Do you have any idea? It doesn't appear that you do, but I do. Take a city like Tokyo, for example. 12 million or so people. Ask anyone Japanese citizen what religion they belong to and 99% will tell you they're Buddhist. That's over 11 million Buddhists. Then go to a Buddhist shrine during a major religious holiday and you'll see maybe a hundred people that actually make an effort to practice it. Count up the number of shrines in Tokyo and you'll see that it's likely quite less than the percent of LDS faithful that you were hyper-critical about.
It's no different with the 1.7-2 Billion "Christians" you mentioned. How many just go to church at Christmas/Easter, drop a few bucks in the collection plate and call it a good life?
Sounds like your problem isn't the article but your hard-feelings against the LDS.

GSL | 8:29 a.m. Oct. 8, 2007

Rob, you sound a bit bitter. Why always look for the negative in life? It was a great conference with very positive messages for all. While there are many less active Mormons, studies have shown that the Mormon Church has one of the highest activity rates of all religions.

Stats | 8:30 a.m. Oct. 8, 2007

Rob, you missed 2 decimal places. It's .19 percent :)

Anonymous | 8:36 a.m. Oct. 8, 2007

Population of the USA is 301 million. Number of US Mormons is 6 million. (301/6= .02) The US population has 2% Mormons. Rob your comments assume all worldwide LDS don't attend church but you then latter assume all Utah Mormon do attend church. This church was restored with one person it now has 13,000,000. That is growth. I served a mission in 1990 along with 40,000 missionaries. I see more growth because the church now has 70,000 missionaries. I travel extensively and love to ask about the LDS church. I was in a remote city in Costa Rica with my family and found a beautiful chappel busy with members that hugged my kids and family. I recently drove past a church Jamaica. Everyone knew the Mormons. I meet the very remote indians of the san blas islands in Panama. They had an LDS chappel/hut. I love the gospel and am very pleased to see the church's growth. In Christs time their were probably only a few thousand compared to the whole world. "For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those that find it." Matthew 7:14

Ian | 8:40 a.m. Oct. 8, 2007

Rob, you've missed the point. It was about "growth", not "percentage of world population". The Church has grown from the 6 original members in 1830 to 13,000,000 in less than 180 years. Buddhists, atheists, and Hindus have a much earlier start on their growth.

While LDS remain a minority of the world's population, the growth is still very remarkable and newsworthy.

critical thinking? | 8:41 a.m. Oct. 8, 2007

Mr. Shiveley's railing on the paper's lack of critical thinking is interesting, especially given that he cites Wikipedia for his statistics (uncontroversial as they might be). The claim here is by the newsmaker, not the reporter. Be careful, your bitterness is showing.

sterling keele | 8:43 a.m. Oct. 8, 2007

And yet, Rob Shiveley, you appear to be interested in the article enough to read it, and comment on it. What's your fascination?

Rob | 8:49 a.m. Oct. 8, 2007

Rob...oh Rob...be nice...worship who you want...don't be bitter...channel your time and energy doing positive things of your own choosing...everything is OK...

Jamie | 8:58 a.m. Oct. 8, 2007

Rob, I am saddened that all you can do with something that is so distasteful to you that you feel a need to put the numbers straight. May I offer you and your soul recommended reading of The Book of Mormon. Maybe if you found something of a spiritual nature, you would be less inclined to make those 13 million members feel less in the world. I often times wonder what it would be like to be someone like you. To take the time to tear down others, that is why we have some of the many problems in our world. I will pray for you to get a spirit of making others up lifted as opposed to feeling this type of indignation. I know that 13 million may not be what "you" think it ought to be, but to those of us and our Pioneer ancestors, that is a large number to us. May your day be a good one, may the Lord shine his light in your heart, may you be quiet enough to listen so that you will know that the Lord loves us all. Rob, may God Bless you today and always, please open your heart.

John | 9:01 a.m. Oct. 8, 2007

"Keep in mind, nearly 2/3rds of Mormons on record neither attend either church meetings nor the temple regularly, nor do they contribute regularly financially"

If you have a source for this, post it. Otherwise, you stand accused of making up numbers.

Keep in mind that you failed to apply the same standards of activity, to the millions of other religious groups you cited, as if you believe that their percentages are any better than that of the Latter Day Saint faith.

If you do apply the same standards to all faiths, you cannot put forth your statistical argument and have anyone accept what you say as anything more than a straw man.

If you actually think that more than one third of the christian world attends all their meetings, and lives all their lives in accordance with the standards of their faith, this is one man who is laughing in your face for your naivete.

Get a life... | 9:08 a.m. Oct. 8, 2007

...and stop wasting your time blogging and going to work, helping others, spend time w/ your kids...anything...but stop waisting your time blogging. President Hinckley didn't say anything about "be sure to waste your time bloggin as soone as conference is over."

Frederick of Logan | 9:12 a.m. Oct. 8, 2007

For Rob!
Degrade! Degrade! Degrade! What have you accomplished other than personal satisfaction? I feel sorry for the likes of people like you. You obviously pretend that you are an authority on what it means to be active in the LDS Church and probably in other sreas as well. I feel sorry for you because it is obvious to me this is one way you get "your jollies" nevertheless, I love you brother.

J Bone | 9:20 a.m. Oct. 8, 2007

Regardless of the actual numbers of church membership, the church is growing liked it has been prophesied. I found it interesting that Elder Ballard said that the church is finishing construction of a new meeting house every working day.I don't know about any other churches, but I would guess there isn't another church out there building and growing that fast.

Growth numbers | 9:37 a.m. Oct. 8, 2007

I've read, but I am not going to post the link here, since they don't want you to do that, that growth is flat, about 300,000 a year. This has been the case for a number of years now. Part of the problem, which I've seen first hand (and now second hand through a son on a mission)is that most of the converts immediately go inactive, in the front door and out the back. I found one article, several years old that went into great depth, breaking down the demographics on the church and detailing the issues. It's out there if you want to read it. The church is not really growing in terms of strong committed members. Maybe this is what is to be expected. The world takes a dim and skeptical view of religion. Most new converts are poor and poorly educated, much like the ones joining Islaam.

Andi | 9:45 a.m. Oct. 8, 2007

Loved listening to conference via the internet. We are currently living in Naples, Italy. Although we regularly read the Ensign, it is so nice to see and hear the words of the prophet....by the way Rob, we have several beautiful buildings here in Naples, and the church is growing.

StatMan | 10:01 a.m. Oct. 8, 2007

Although apparently biased in some ways, Rob is not far off. At a recent leadership training meeting, I learned that the highest activity levels in the Church are in the US - Utah, specifically - and those activity numbers do not exceed 50%. That is defining activity according to our own standards. Elsewhere in the world, activity rates rarely rise above 25%, and on average around the world, activity rates are barely about 33%. If I have figured correctly, that means of 13 million members on he Church records, only about 4.3 million are "active" worldwide. These statistics were shared with us along with a message that we need to do better. Why aren't those who once felt the spirit remaining active? Perhaps we need to work on listening to others and their concerns instead of condemning them for being sinners by falling away, and then ostracizing them like a bunch of elitests?

Craig | 10:10 a.m. Oct. 8, 2007

The problem that most of the commenters fail to grasp is that the rate of growth of the LDS Church has in fact slowed down over the last 15 years, even by the Church's own numbers. It's not merely a question of the relative size of the Church vis-ï¿½-vis other churches, but also whether it has sustained its growth rate.

The Church's own figures show an average decline in growth rate of 1.1 tenths of a percent per year over the last thirty years. This means that where the Church experienced an average annual growth of 5.3% in the 1980s, it dropped to 3.6% in the 1990s, and has slipped to 2.5% in the 2000s.

So, while the Church is growing, that growth is in fact gradually stagnating.

East Coaster | 10:11 a.m. Oct. 8, 2007

Pretty amazing that I can sit in my home and listen to the internet broadcast of conference...I sure miss the days when I could watch it in Zion with the 2.55 billion white people HA-HA. Anyway, more important than the above jibber-jabber on numbers, It was a great conference. Member or not, it is very refreshing to here words of wisdom from people/leaders who obviously care about society. What a great religion the LDS church is...every 6 months we get to hear such profound messages for 2 straight days.

David Glick | 10:21 a.m. Oct. 8, 2007

I have been a member of the Brooklyn, New York stake for several years now. Do we have a lot of less active members? Sure. However, over the last couple of decades we have grown from one congregation to a thriving stake. Yes, we are still a very small percentage of the NYC population, but the growth itself is still significant.

Fritz | 10:29 a.m. Oct. 8, 2007

I wonder what the rate of activity is among the atheists, agnostics, tribal religions? I suspect it is pretty high since you don't have to really do anything. The tribal religions do more , I suppose, but those are more cultural.The same goes for many of the other religions Rob mentioned which apparently have high activity. For many, you worship two or three times a year and you are "active".

Matt | 10:31 a.m. Oct. 8, 2007

What made it such a great conference? I watched/listened to the whole thing, and it just seemed like the same old same old to me. We as members parrot "what a great conference".

What made it "great" for you?

Maureen Eldredge | 10:32 a.m. Oct. 8, 2007

A statement yesterday about how the church "gives in" to the Blacks to have the priesthood only because of political pressure has kept me thinking about how uninformed the writer is. He obviously is not aware of the prayerful requests of the Blacks to the leadership of the church for baptism and priesthood leaders to come to them. They were not asking for priesthood, but for leadership and copies of the Book of Mormon because they already knew the church and the scriptures are true. When the Lord saw how ready the people were THEN is when they received all that they asked for - even the priesthood and temple recommends.
(I am amazed that I even read this column yesterday and today because I never have before). People who write just might be wanting to know more.....

Student | 10:55 a.m. Oct. 8, 2007

Rob,
In college they won't allow you cite wikipedia as a source for any research project. Meaning....the validity of your source is not considered trustworthy on a public school academic standard. Therefore, you'll need a stronger supporting argument if you feel that your oposing statistics should even be considered noteworthy. Sorry

Brian | 10:58 a.m. Oct. 8, 2007

I think Mr. Shively should have used a religion that came into being at about the same time as the LDS Church did for a proper comparison.

The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society (a.k.a. Jehovah's Witnesses) began as a small group of Bible students in the late 1870s. Founded by Charles T. Russell, it has grown over the years to number in the millions. A quote from Wikipedia about it's membership:

"Jehovahï¿½s Witnesses count as adherents the number attending their meetings. Of these adherents, they count as members those who report time preaching each month. As of August 2006 this membership is about 6.7 million."

Given LDS activity rates, the Witnesses might have more active members. Also remember, their religion began 40 years after the LDS Church was founded.

Would this make it "more true" than the LDS Church? No, I don't think so. All it means is that both religions have grown so fast because they are very aggressive in seeking new converts.

NorthboundZax | 11:01 a.m. Oct. 8, 2007

Turk, I imagine much of Rob's distaste for the statement about growth is often hearing it coupled with the word 'miraculous' which can be rather tiring. The JWs and Seventh Day Adventists are showing more world-wide growth than LDS are. Should we characterize their growth as 'miraculous' as well or is it simply a function of a highly energized missionary program?

Mike | 11:03 a.m. Oct. 8, 2007

This comment is not to be critical of the Church: It is a fact that growth rates have declined and no more than 40% of the announced 13 million members are considered active. My point is to wonder why we do not put more emphasis on reconverting the millions who at one time joined or were born into the Church and have now fallen away? New convert retention rates are undeniably very low. Would we have greater success if we had full-time missionaries devoted entirely to reactivation activities? I apologize if that is already in place and I am simply unaware.

Matt suggestion | 11:04 a.m. Oct. 8, 2007

Matt,
I feel inclined to say that when you listen to conference with a prayerful heart and an open mind then the spirit of the Lord reveals things that mean more than just the words that they say. That is what made it GREAT for me! My testimony was strengthened because I was looking for it to be. If it seemed liked nothing new to you, a helpful suggestion would be read the ensign when it comes out and have a prayer in your heart that you can spiritually grow from what has been said. I testify the Lord will communicate something more to you than what you feel you received listening to it the first time.

Matt | 11:06 a.m. Oct. 8, 2007

According to the New York Times 2002 world almanac, the growth of the LDS church from 1830-1976 is 52 times the rate of the population growth of the world. That impressive growth, regardless of how you look at it.

Josh | 11:06 a.m. Oct. 8, 2007

Matt,

A few things that made it great for me: President Monson's quickie about redheads during the Priesthood session. I'm a redhead, and that really brightened my evening. President Hinckley's talk about Anger and Elder Hallstrom's talk about Procrastination were messages that helped me revitalize my effort against these two flaws of mine. Elder Wirthlin's struggle to give the words of life amidst his own physical toil (I will always think thrice when the thought "I'm just too tired" enters my mind). Elder Tenorio sharing his very personal stories regarding his testimony of temple blessings (and, in general, all heart-felt personal experiences given by the various speakers) that helped him to overcome the death of his child and see the conversion of his father.

Referring to the "Numbers" conversation,

I find it fascinating the growth of the Church amidst perceived deterrents. With a culture that seems to value God less and less, I find it refreshing when a person extricates themselves from that culture and seeks out God, perhaps against the odds. It is worth every effort to see their lives change for the temporal and eternal better.

HH | 11:22 a.m. Oct. 8, 2007

Don't make such a big issue about church activity! The Gospel of Jesus Christ is hard to live for many. But don't forget, the Protestant churches in Europe, specially in Germany and the Scandinavian countries are losing members in vast numbers. Parish churches in Germany are sold to Muslims, even one of them became a casino and pastors, because of lack of funds, need to serve several parishes. Attendance is very low in comparison to the LDS Church. Mostly the elderly attend. Young people in the LDS Church are much more active and committed.

Outside of Utah | 11:57 a.m. Oct. 8, 2007

Regarding Mike's comment about activation:

I can't speak for other areas, but in parts of the midwest there is an ongoing, focused effort to bring back those who have chosen to leave activity in the LDS Church. It includes full time and ward missionaries, quorums, bishoprics, Relief Societies, Young Men and Young Women leaders, and stake presidencies to name some.

In the Iowa area, we call it the Nauvoo Commitment. When people can by exercising agency choose to be active or not, there will be some who choose not. We do not know when (or if) some of those who have left activity will come back, but we work to invite and be prepared to help them when (and if) they do.

As for converts, we have seen some fall away sooner and later. And we have seen many who have remained strong and are getting stronger.

We have seen miracles in growth and expect to see more. Perhaps the greater miracle is to see people whose life has been filled with pain and sorrow due to unwise decisions find the Gospel and a better way of life.

dh | 12:33 p.m. Oct. 8, 2007

Where is the growth coming from??? That is another interesting question. Most of the new converts to the church are former Catholics and Protestants who have discovered that their present church simply doesn't provide the fullness of the gospel. Most of these new converts make very difficult transitions to the Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints leaving behind family and friends as well as having to now pay tithing and try to live their religion every day of the year instead of just during Christmas and Easter ... and yet the convert numbers continue to explode to increasing record numbers every year. In 10 to 15 years Church membership should exceed 20 million+. I'm sure that the first presidency is thrilled with the growth but more important than sheer growth is the activity rate of the members which is probably around the 60% mark for a fully active member. Growing pains will always be felt in the church but the bottom line is the Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has caught the attention of world leaders all around the globe and in a very positive way for the most part.

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