Deseret News | Separation of church and dance

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Separation of church and dance

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To Been around | 12:07 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

I support what the school did. It had more to do with lack of attendance. What I don't support is your tone when referring to other religions.
As a non-LDS living in Utah I expect that the religion of the majority to be accommodated. I also expect that others should be respected as well. When you commented that the Jews and Catholics "INSIST" on people respecting, wouldn't that be true for all people regardless of religion? My son, who also attends services on Sundays, was required to work at his place of employment to cover the kids that were LDS. While this may be borderline discrimination, we respected this decision because it was more important for the kids he worked with to be off on Sunday than it was for us. This is called respect.
People that are not of the predominant faith here in Utah become sensitive to the minor things because of the comments and rudeness brought on by a few of the LDS faith much like those of my faith may have been insensitive to those of yours.
Religion is more pronounced here than anywhere else I've lived.
(continued)

To Been around | 12:11 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

Utah has been predominantly LDS for so long it's people expect that their neighbors and co-workers are as well. It is easy to assume that if you aren't LDS you MUST think differently.
I hope that someday we can come together as one people of Utah with differing views on faith and ALL learn to accept and respect each other beliefs.
We enjoy living here because of the religious undertones of the community. I know it may be hard to believe, but we have very similar moral beliefs.

L | 12:21 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

It seems to me about 50 years ago when I was on the Student Council in Oklahoma a similar situation occurred except this time it was the one protestant church complaing that the school schedule had to be modified because of an activity (a youth conference) had been scheduled by the other church at the same time. The decision was simply one whether the even would even be a real success if many of our classmates wouldn't be there. (neither would be the $ needed for decorations, refreshments etc.)

THINGS DON'T SEEM TO CHANGE MUCH !

I think those who complain about things like this only make community relations more difficult. Instead of "pulling apart" why don't we "pull together?"

A personal note to WOW - If the scheduling of a dance is your justification for sending your children to a private school, I guess that is your choice, but I know for a fact some of them coorelate their activities with community calendars. If this is the justification for me to support voucher for private schools ... I guess that makes up my mind !

Comments continue below

CTR | 12:31 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

Wow! A school that listens to its students. Don't vote for vouchers, move your kids to an open school like Murray High. The school was smart enough to know that a lot of students wouldn't attend the dance because their parents would make them go to comference instead. There is already a shortage of guys going to dances. They were just trying to make sure your daughters had dates.

Jay, slc | 12:35 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

What is wrong with Murry HS making a change? You don't think the same thing would happen in Notre Dame, Indiana if the Pope was speaking!!!!

When you are living in an area where people choose to live there because of the religious atmosphere, expect things like to to happen.

No one it trying to pick on the minority! You are all welcome to attend. In SLC & Notre Dame, Indiana.

I went to school in the Northeast, all the public schools were closed for the major Jewish holidays.

What is need here is understanding . . .

AZ Mom | 12:36 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

Not long ago in Arizona, all of our high school football games were scheduled for Thursday night instead of Friday night because of Yom Kippur. Though the Jewish community is a minority group in Arizona- Catholics are the largest religious group with the Mormons a distant second, as far as I am aware, there wasn't a single comment or complaint about the Thursday night games. In fact, they have been scheduling around Yom Kippur for several years. There is also no school scheduled on Good Friday. Isn't it about tolerance and respect for each other? Why are some in Utah always feeling persecuted when schools try to accomodate special religious events of their students- no matter what religion? As I ask my children when they have a crisis in their lives; "Will this really affect the fate of free nations?" In other words, a year from now will anyone really care? 10 years from now, will your child even remember that the date of the Homecoming dance was changed? As parents, you've got to pick your battles- does this one really rank right up there- or should you save your "outrage" for something that really matters?

Duh | 12:50 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

You live in utah. youll have to deal with a lot of mormons. the majority of the kids are probably mormon. the dance was changed so the majority of the kids could go. DEAL WITH IT. or leave the state and youll probably never have an activity scheduled around a mormon event.

ED | 12:53 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

I believe the U.S. Supreme court has ruled many times on the issues of church and state. So the issue of it being in the Constitution is moot. However, this is not one of those issues. The issue here is attendance at a school function. If it had been scheduled on a Sunday and later found out it was Super Bowl Sunday, I bet the school would have changed the time or day for their dance for the very same reason they changed it this time... attendance!

CJM | 12:54 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

I grew up in a predominately Catholic area in southeastern MA. Not only that, but,for two years,attended an elementary school of which half my class was Jewish. While school was held on Jewish holidays, the teachers certainly didn't schedule tests or special activities on those days. It would not have made any sense, with half the class missing. IT'S JUST COMMON SENSE! Not religious discrimination!
Did it bother me when, on our high school band trip,special accomadations were made for the Catholic kids to go to Mass on Sunday and the rest of us were free to go to Mass or hang around the National Cathedral waiting for them? Yup! But I was only 16 and a new convert to the LDS church. Even then ,common sense told me it would be ludicrous to demand that I, the lone latter day saint, should ask to be taken to the nearest chapel for services.
So,if there were kids that resented things being changed for the "mormon kids" ,I've been there. But shouldn't the adults have a more mature perspective and attempt to convey the practical side of the issue rather than incite and be "livid"?

May Neilsen | 12:55 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

The article, Separation of church and dance, is unworthy of print. Congratulations to Murray High's principal. It was a good decision to hold the dance when the majority of students could attend. There are those among us who have the same attitudes as Abby Smart. They find fault with anything and everything that involves the LDS people. Perhaps Abby would be happier living in another state.

Larry | 12:57 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

The "lame defense" of other parts of the Country accomodating Catholics in majority Catholic areas may not be true; but the practice is alive and well here in Georgia where school events, government meetings and sports leagues openly and regularly schedule around Southern Baptist Wednesday youth night. LDS members here are not offended, but are grateful the Baptist youth want to be active in both Church and School.

FloydRTurbo | 1:15 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

What a bunch of whiners! I went through a school system in another state and guess what happened there? On Good Friday (and I'm not Catholic) the cafeterias served fish sticks instead of beef or chicken! Guess what we did? We ate them and didn't complain that it was "wrong" or a "breach of the separation of church and state" or that our "rights" had been trampled on! Yup, we just ate them. Quite whining about something as minor as changing the date of a dance!

Ashley | 1:22 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

I was a student body officer at Woods Cross High School two years ago. We did the same thing- moved the date of our Senior Ball because it conflicted with conference. Nobody had a problem because we wanted everyone to be able to attend. To us it was more about including everyone. There's nothing wrong with that.

Unvbelievable | 1:23 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

Conference has been going on for how many years twice a year and Murray High is hold. Life is about rescheduling conflicts.

Anonymous | 1:38 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

its nice and considerate to reschedule it, I know my alma mater Cottonwood High School has had the conflict multiple times. People who wine and are 'offended' are simply winers. The separation of 'church and state' has nothing to do with this, its just a lame excuse to knock on the lds faith.

Anonymous | 1:55 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

The issue is not just this one event but the effect and influence which is stong armed into civil and public events.

This one event is not significant but taken with other decisions it just adds to the layer of muck that divides.

Homeschool Mom | 1:58 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

I agree with so many here, lighten up Miss Smart! and try to be a better example in teaching your kids tolerance of others' religious views and ideals.

Anonymous | 2:29 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

I agree with the viewpoints of tolerance and understanding, however it needs to be bi-directional.

These types of public or civil decisions (this is not the strongest example but nontheless an example) for a special interest group (LDS Church) affect all involved not just the targeted audience.Let's take that into consiseration.

Wow! | 2:29 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

There are certainly more important things to be upset and livid about. Murders, rape, drugs, theft, robberies, poverty, hunger, homelessness, tyrant rulers who murder their countrymen(Burma),etc.
I agree the majority should be respectful of their minority neighbors, but this shouldn't even show up on the radar screen of indignation. If the non-LDS students had been told they couldn't attend that would rank as discrimination. I didn't read anything sort in the article. So, I'm confident that this was not the case. They instead moved the date of the dance...So, it would be profitable. Makes good business sense. Whoever the students were that realized that the dance probably wouldn't turn a profit have good business acumen. To those thin skinned LDS people on this post offended by the parents complaining about the dance. I don't believe we should be inviting our non-member residents to leave if they don't like it either. That is insensitive! Please don't do it. Intolerance breeds intolerance! Although we can't accommodate all possible positions on every facet of life. We should at least try to be civil to each other. All involved should apologize to each other. Move on! I'm sure the Lord would approve of that.

Considerate is non-religious | 2:57 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

Being considerate of others is not religious, not partisan. If an event (religious, secular, whatever) affects a lot of people, why make a big deal of changing it and go on a bashing campaign?

I compliment those who have tried to include the most number of people in these events.

Your kindness, consideration is appreciated. Keep up the good works.

To the Angry Mormons | 2:59 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

I think this is just silly, if they want to complain let them, what does it effect you? Seriously people you are no diffrent then they are carring on like a bunch of babies who were picked on "why should we mourn or think our lot is hard tis not so all is right" complain away, what they think shouldn't effect your faith or bliefs at all, so why egg them on?

To the angry Non-mormons | 3:01 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

For all of the rude comments made by people I am sorry, weather or not the dance " should" have been rescheduled or weather you "should" have been asked aside, people shouldn't be rude and I appoligize for all of there comments.

Living in the South | 3:28 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

I am LDS living in Mississippi and nobody apologizes to me for being Baptist and I do not expect one. All of our major school activities are opened with prayer and recently members of our church have been asked to participate. It is deceptive and intellectually dishonest for anyone to pretend that the religious beliefs of individuals and communities can be completely separated from secular events. In a day when so many kids are hurting and suffering, why would any reasonable adult complain about a school rescheduling an event to accommodate some of its students desire to participate in another event which is designed to uplift and edify them. I applaud those in Utah that do not fear the ACLU and other ant-religious groups and continue to live their religion faithfully and unashamed. I applaud the Baptists for doing it here in Mississippi too.

Non-Utah LDS | 3:43 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

If you want to see true discrimination against people of minority faiths, please drive or fly about 1800 miles in the general direction of southeast.

Why would you expect anything different in a state that is predominantly latter-day saints.

Try being LDS in the deep south!

Sounds like some people are just looking for something to be offended about.

And I get SOOO tired of the separation of church and state thing, which another commenter so aptly explained doesn't exist in our constitution.

Mrs. P. | 3:47 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

LDS members will not, and should not, buckle on our great virtue to accommodate the minority. If you donï¿½t enjoy the community and culture of this great state, then move! There are many accommodating communities for your view point and expectations!

Steven Smith | 4:05 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

This to reality check. GROW UP. You don't like, LEAVE. No one is making you stay. This is just about you having an axe to grind. You know that what people are saying about minority groups is true. If they want to change the day of the prom it's their choice. Does it really matter when they have the dance as long as they have it.

Anonymous | 4:18 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

Just move if you donï¿½t like itï¿½--no one is making you stay. This is our state and no outside influence will change our exemplary values.

Non-LDS faithful | 4:31 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

This is Utah. For over a century now, non-LDS members have complained about the oligarchy of the LDS church and its subsequent negative influences on those of us not of the fold. If you don't like hearing about all the inequalities we non-LDS members have been protesting, and about the constant affronts to OUR sensitivities then LEAVE! I hear Mississippi, Massachusetts, and Illinois don't have non-Mormons complaining about Mormons.

Clark | 4:37 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

To the Catholic who is upset. My little sister, a non-practicing Mormon, spent five years in Providence, Rhode Island, which is predominent Catholic. She was persecuted and didn't even attend her Mormon Church, but just because she was from Utah she was treated poorly at work and by neighbors.
Also, she taught school there and yes, things were governed by what Catholic high holy days there were.
Get over it lady!

Anonymous | 4:40 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

You Mormons are such self-absorbed bigots. That is why Mormons in the school leadership made accomodations to Mormons students in a Mormon community. You don't give a hoot about your non-Mormon neighbors so long as you get to feel that you are morally superior to everyone else. What a joke.

This is our State??? | 4:40 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

Wow. What a statement. While I agree that the LDS church has had a very positive affect on this state and I really enjoy it. It is a little brash to use the "this is our state so if you don't like it move" statement. I thought that it was Gods state, Gods country, and Gods world. If you don't believe in God, then think of it as part of the United States of America. I may not fully understand the LDS faith but I do understand that it is based on Gods laws. I think that if God was among us he would be amazed as to the lack of tolerance on either side.
I agree that moving the dance was the correct thing to do. I also agree with most of the laws that have an LDS connection. it is what makes this state great to live and raise a family. Please don't think that because I'm not LDS that I don't have the same morals, because my family and I have the same morals. We just worship the same God differently.

Ben | 4:42 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

It's a simple matter of attendance. As a faithful latter day saint and former officer at my school, there is absolutely 0 chance I would skip priesthood session to go to a dance. By rescheduling the dance to a date that more students would be available, the school would benefit more from hosting the dance, because more couples would be able to attend.

To Clark | 4:45 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

I'm calling you on that. I too lived in Providence for a number of years. I am a member in good standing. I was fully accepted. We were very interactive in the community. We hated to leave. Our neighbor who happened to be Catholic we very good friends of ours. Our neighbors actually threw a neighborhood going away party. I almost miss living there after reading these posts.

Sherry | 4:56 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

Complaining about rescheduling a school dance for conference in a suburb of Salt Lake City is the equvalent of complaining about rescheduling a youth activity in Rome because the Pope was speaking!!

Salt Lake is the capital of the mormon faith.

Its about the same as moving to Washington state and complaining about the rain!!

We have to live in the real world, and its not going to change for the minority. If you don't like it where you live, try someplace else.

I use to live in southern Utah and I did not like it there so I moved to Washington. I didn't like the rain there so I moved to Nevada.

Isn't it great to live where we are free to go anywhere in the country we want to?

I love this country!!

Jefferson would have no problem | 4:59 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

If you reeadJeffersons letters on the subject, he was very adament that States and local cities and towns would impose religious rules in their framwork. Just not the federal goverenment.

Don't rely on the sound bite of "church and state" for your knowledge of this subject.
Go read Jefferson's writings on it.

dcar | 4:59 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

Apparently Ms. Smart-y-pants doesnt know what it is like to live in Boston with the influences of the Catholic church or in NYC with a continuim of Jewish holidays starting September through early October. This is Utah. Got a problem...move.

Kim | 5:12 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

To all those who criticize this decision the LDS student body is the most influential and important portion of the student body at MHS. With that being said it is only fair that we were aload to move this so it did not conflict with conference.

To all those haters out there this is no different than the mexicans getting to celebrate all there holidays in california. This is America remember.

Student Choice | 5:41 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

The proposal to move the dance came from the students officers. The decision to approve it came from the administration. Let the student body have the freedome to propose a change of dates! I really wonder if some people just wait to complain about things. Keep a perspective here! Dances are moved all the time to avoid conflicts with deer hunt, college events, holidays, etc. They could have moved it to that same Friday night...but it prevents the students from having much time from going to the game, changing clothes, and getting to the dance. The students of tghe school aren't complaining. They wanted a well attended dance--whose ticket sales benefit the school itself.

Carl Sullivan | 5:55 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

I agree that the dance isn't such a big issue. However, the comment "got a problem, move," heats me up when it comes to such school issues. Last year, my friend's daughter, who had left the LDS faith with her family, was ostracized by her Utah high school class to the point that everyone in the class, including teachers, completely shunned her for about a week. Literally, she would ask a question in class, and completely be ignored by everyone! A comment from a parent tipped my friend off to the fact that the teacher had called every parent and asked them to inform their children to avoid speaking to his (honor student) daughter, because she was a "negative influence." The administration was approached about this, and the teacher was appropriately punished, but this story goes to show just why something must on occasion be done to protect the rights of minority students, beyond "just leave."

KLM | 5:54 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

I am sorry for those who are offended by this decision but the fact of the matter is the LDS religion is the predominant religion in Utah and guides us all in our everyday life. I sincerely would have hoped each of you would have understood our state and culture prior to moving to our community.

oh well | 6:20 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

I grew up in Utah and remember well being served fish every Friday for school lunch. It was done out of respect for the very few and I do mean very few Catholic students who attended my elementary school. I hate fish, but it didn't make me hate the Catholic students whose beliefs were being respected. This was waaaay back in the 60's.

NJreader | 6:20 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

Living in NJ, school events are always scheduled around Jewish and Catholic holy days. In fact last week some football games were moved to Sunday to accomodate a Jewish religious holiday. No one complains!! Only in Utah do people find any excuse to complain about the predominant religion.

miked. | 6:36 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

This really chaps me and highlights the bigotry against the LDS church. This is Utah and the I-80 and I-15 corridors will get you to a destination where you are comfortably associated with those who share your lifestyle. Complain all you want but life here will remain as it has for the past 160 years which is a good thing.

It could be worse! | 6:42 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

I lived in Texas during my high school years. We always scheduled things around the local Baptist church, which did not offend me in the least. As an LDS person, I thought it was great that they wanted to go to church to learn to be a better person. But it didn't stop there, not only did we schedule events around their church activities, but we didn't even get to hold dances because their local Baptist faith did not believe in dancing! I'm sure there were kids of other faiths besides me, but no-one ever complained.

I'm so grateful that ANY kids these days are interested in attending church for their spiritual well-being. Seems to me that a little religious instruction might help a few teens in this troubling day and age. Thank goodness some want to attend the church of their choice. Wow, what are we complaining about. Kids that want to better their lives and are willing to change a "fun" event for instruction on how to be a better person. I'm willing to cancel all school dances in favor of religious instruction of any faith.

KRS | 6:48 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

I was born and raised Catholic. I joined the LDS church in 1997. Last year I reaffirmed my faith in the one true church (the church of Rome), and part of the reason I resigned from the LDS church is the strong anti-Catholic bias you mormons have. shame!

basketball discrimination | 6:53 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

Back in the day, I was a hoopster extraordinairre and this Baptist kid got on the team and I didn't. He went to the SAME CHURCH as the basketball coach. So PLEASE, this has troubled me for some time but I don't complain. They would laugh at me forever as being a crybaby. By the way, I am still awesome at hoop although my knees give me trouble, and my fat stomach throws me off balance. Anyone tempted to mess with me, don't come into my house or I will slap down your mess.

Krudd | 6:54 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

Oh Abby Smart, if you don't like Utah..............MOVE!!!! There are a lot of LDS people. Get a grip on important things in life....
I am a Alum of Murray High.........things weren't different back then. It seemed to me Homecoming was the same weekend....as the game.
Stop crying......

Mary | 6:56 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

Yea, I agree. Let's have a dance that most of the students couldn't attend because of time conflict. That would make a LOT of sense. Isn't one of the purposes of a school activity is for the students to participate? I think it would be even more stupid to have an activity that only a handful of students could attend. If we are going to do that, let's schedule football games at 3am, basketball games in the middle of the school day, club meetings on the 5th Saturday of EVERY month, etc. etc.

LDS but glad I'm not in Zion | 7:10 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

To ï¿½Oh Wellï¿½, A little of topic but I donï¿½t think fish was on Fridays just for the Catholics but it was ï¿½chicï¿½ Christian at the time and the LDS church was pushing to align with standard Christian religion. If I recall right this was during the period when Apostle Bruce McConkie referred to the Catholic church as the ï¿½Mother of all Whores.' I think relations were poor at best and little would have been done to accommodate our Catholic neighbors but maybe it was done to make nice ??? Not proud of the incident as most would not be but it happened and at most we tolerated non-members. From reading some of these readers comments it leads me to believe little progress has been made in my old stomping gounds from the 60's.

Steve Impson | 7:11 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

Yes, we live in a predominately Assemblies of God and Southern Baptist state, nowhere near Utah. It would be a shocking day here if L.D.S. dates were the slightest bit considered. When we moved here 20 years ago, our church was not permitted to join the local Ecumenical Council. Only when one of the 6 most powerful positions in the community was filled by an L.D.S. guy did they finally relinquish. Instead, on one Sunday (not Halloween) morning, we found anti-L.D.S. people dressed in temple clothing at the entries of the church parking lot. They finally left when a couple of our members invited them in to attend Sacrament Meeting. Pretty funny, actually.

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